Is limiting contact a selfish thing?? I need advice

[SoooConfused]

Hi,

I’m new to this. I just recently discovered my 33 year old daughter suffers from BPD and NPD. She is my only child. I feel devastated.

The question I have is about interacting with her. She is a compulsive liar. I mean even about things of no importance to anyone. I don’t know if she does it for the thrill or the drama. I simply don’t know. However, my reaction to her is visceral. Because I can never tell if she’s being truthful…. I actually have a physical reaction to seeing her and talking to her. I don’t want to sound overly dramatic but my heart starts to palpitate and I begin to have anxiety attacks. She is constantly manipulating me with my love for her. But, I now can see she has hurt many people with her delusional lies including accusations of abuse.

Before she left our home, she had become very dark and acting bizarrely. I felt fear. I woke up at 3am on two occasions and found her lurking in the hallway behind me. It was a relief when she left.

I guess the question I have is has anyone else cut off communication with their child. How close are these disorders to being psychotic?? I know their greatest fear is being abandoned…. so I feel I’m playing into her greatest fear. But, she is so delusional and disassociated with reality, I feel anything I might say to her can only hurt her mental state. I have to admit that I find her attraction to these much older men disgusting   I can’t help it. She is a beautiful young woman. She has repeatedly engaged in relationships and activities that are destructive to herself and others including drinking and driving, lying obviously, and relationships with older men that have turned abusive on two occasions already.

On the advice of a psychiatrist, I set three boundaries. No drinking and driving (the car was titled and insured in my name), no dating inappropriately aged men (she was 27 when she got involved with a 67 year old) and no lying. She broke all three within the first week of living with us.

I guess I really can’t handle this. She is not the person I thought she was. Her mask was so convincing… I didn’t even know she was ill. I didn’t know she lied. I didn’t know her accusation could have been false. I wasn’t until her father and I placed the restrictions on her behavior as a requirement of her living with us that she devolved into rebellious fit.

My problem is I feel like I’m being selfish or narcissistic in putting myself and  my mental health and my relationships with my partner first. I researched this condition and found local mental health treatment for her at her request… but she has chosen to decline treatment and go see a couples therapist…. Because everything is someone else’s fault. She’s just the victim.

 If I step back from interacting with her, will she just write off our relationship?? She is already living with a 50 year old man only 6 months after we rescued her from her 7 year “abusive” relationship with a man 40 years her senior. I don’t know what to do.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[zachira]

You are not alone in having to limit contact with your own adult child because of how destructive the relationship is. I am no contact with my only sister and low contact with several of my relatives. I have been surprised by how I can share with certain people (not most people) how I have distanced myself from many of my relatives because of how they have abused me and other family members. As time goes on, you will likely feel more comfortable though still heartbroken over having to distance yourself from your daughter for your wellbeing and also to give her the chance to take responsibility for her self destructive behaviors which only she can do.

[SoooConfused]

Thank you so much. That’s the other factor. I also had to go no contact with my mother about ten years ago because of past abuse, her inability to take any responsibility and her ongoing mental abuse of me. When this happened with my daughter, I felt like… Is this me?? Am I the problem??? I don’t appear to have any personal mental issues. I am an entrepreneur with two businesses where I deal with the public continuously. My other personal relationships are fine. But, how can I have to cut off two people who are so dear to me and why do they behave towards me and treat me like they do? I am sorry for your pain as well. I truly never saw anything like this coming. I didn’t even know anything about personality disorder although for the most part I’m a very well informed person.

[zachira]

I have many people with mental health issues in my family. Some have  personality disorders like NPD and BPD which seem to be a combination of environmental factors and heredity. Some have Bipolar Disorder and Major Depressive Disorder both which have strong genetic components. People with mental health challenges tend to marry each other, so the genetics are passed on along with the dysfunctional environments often created when there is lots of mental illness in the family.

[CC43]

Hi Confused,

You are not alone in feeling devastated and confused.  We try to sort out why our adult child acts the way she does, and we try to find ways to avoid the abuse and self-destructive behaviors.  It seems you've tried everything, and nothing seems to work, right?

Your daughter is an adult now.  She is responsible for her feelings and actions, like you are responsible for your feelings and actions.  You basically have no control over how she feels and how she acts with others.  She is her own problem, and she's also her own solution.  She has to decide she wants to feel better and get some help in the form of therapy.  You can't make her do that--she needs to decide for herself.  What you can do is try to stop enabling her by giving her everything she wants when she acts up.  If she's getting what she wants by lying, abusing you and bullying you, then she has no reason to change, even if she's making herself miserable, and making you miserable right along with her.  She probably blames you for her dysfunction, and she treats you horribly so that you experience how badly she feels.  This is so misguided.  Does that ring true in your situation?

I have a stepdaughter in her mid-20s who is diagnosed with BPD.  She exhibited many of the behaviors you describe when she was at her worst.  She's beautiful, too, which plays into her act of being a "damsel in distress".  She would lie outright, or distort the facts to fit her narrative of being a victim--always the victim.  For example, one day when she didn't get what she wanted, she started a nasty fight, hitting and drawing a weapon, threatening to hurt herself and a loved one.  The cops were called, and she was taken to the hospital.  But when she retells the story, she was ASSAULTED.  This is "projection" of her own negative and hate-filled thoughts onto others.  At this point, I don't think it matters whether she really knows that she's lying, whether she's semi-psychotic or delusional, or if she's lying to protect herself from re-living traumatic feelings.  The reason doesn't matter as much as the result:  she's not well in the head, and she can't have a two-way conversation when she's like this.  She can't process what you have to say when she's dysregulated.  So now when she tells stories of victimhood, I take it as a sign that something else isn't right in her life right at that moment.  It's always something else--I usually find out what it is, eventually.  She just can't own up to her bad choices and mistakes, so she fabricates a story of victimhood.  When she's desperate, she'll dredge up ancient perceived slights from childhood, alleging that her parents are to blame for the crisis du jour.  At one point she tested out a story of molestation by her dad, which was patently false.  When she saw that that lie wasn't going to work, she dredged up some other story of purported abuse.

You ask:  could this be psychosis?  Yes, sometimes pwBPD experience temporary psychosis.  My stepdaughter had some stress-induced bouts of psychosis, back when she was self-medicating with pot.  In my opinion, pot use made her self-destructive symptoms much, much worse.

I think you are on the right track by establishing some boundaries, to protect yourself from your daughter's poor behavior.  But boundaries are really about what YOU do in certain situations, to protect yourself; boundaries aren't really for her, at least not directly.  "No dating older men" isn't a boundary for you.  A boundary for you might be:  "I will not allow (male) guests who aren't family to stay in my home overnight."  And if she brings a male guest who doesn't leave your home at night, you kick them both out of your house, or you call the cops and have them kick them out.  "No drinking and driving" isn't really a boundary, even if it is the law of the land.  A boundary for you would be:  "If you drive my car while drunk, I will take the keys from you and never let you drive it again."  Alternatively, if drunk driving is an ongoing problem, you could use a breathalyzer.  Then your boundary might be:  "Before I give you the keys to my car, you need to take a breathalyzer test and pass it.  If you never fail a breathalyzer test for six consecutive months, I'll remove this rule."  And why is she driving your car anyway?  She's old enough to buy her own car.  Have her buy it from you, and take her off your insurance.  Then if she drinks and drives, she faces the consequences:  fines, probation, license suspension, jail time, whatever.  If she's unemployed, then she faces the natural consequence that she can't afford a car right now.  She can walk, bike, take the bus, find a carpool or take an Uber.  She might have to work a few months before she can afford to buy the car off you.  It sounds to me that you're "enabling" her by giving her your car, paying for insurance and maybe even paying for gas, too.  She doesn't care about the car or her actions because YOU are the person who faces the consequences for her mistakes, not her.

I'm not sure how I'd handle a boundary for the lying.  I tend to care much more about what people DO than what they SAY.  I guess I can forgive the occasional shouting, swearing or fabrications if the kid is doing what she should be doing:  working, taking care of herself, cleaning up after herself, etc.  I already know she's lying on a frequent basis.  She'll typically lie to avoid responsibility.  She'll lie to get out of doing something.  I guess I don't really care that much, as long as she ends up doing what she needs to be doing.  To me, it's not worth it to point out her lies and "feed the fire and ire" so to speak.  I focus more on the actual behavior.

I know this is very painful, and many of the tools for dealing with BPD/NPD are counter-intuitive.  I wish you peace and strength.

The thing with boundaries is that you have to be ready to enforce them.  With BPD, there's almost a guarantee that your daughter will test the boundary limits.  She's actually testing YOU, to see what she can get away with.  For years, she's tested you and "upped the ante" with escalating threats:  louder (and more creative) yelling and insults, outlandish blame games, and maybe threats of suicide or self-harm.  You have to be prepared to enforce the boundaries, or nothing will change.  Take away those car keys and call the cops if you have to.  With BPD, it might take SEVERAL times before she learns you're serious.  Since she's 33, she's been testing you a long time, and so I suspect it will be hard at first to enforce those boundaries.  You should expect an "extinction burst:" an escalation of her antics when presented with a new boundary.  That's a sign that she's reading your message, even if she doesn't get it at first.

[SoooConfused]

I have many people with mental health issues in my family. Some have  personality disorders like NPD and BPD which seem to be a combination of environmental factors and heredity. Some have Bipolar Disorder and Major Depressive Disorder both which have strong genetic components. People with mental health challenges tend to marry each other, so the genetics are passed on along with the dysfunctional environments often created when there is lots of mental illness in the family.

Hi Zachira,

I too have many people with mental illness including both of my parents and my partner, my daughter’s father, has BPD in his family. I never knew what was wrong with them until now. NPD afflicted both of my parents. Maybe that’s why I questioned my own actions with regards to our daughter.

This is such a complicated disorder. She lacks rage and self harm. She lives in an alternate reality. She created a false life story and lived with a man who we only knew as her employer and friend. Had no clue   although I questioned her extensively regarding her relationship throughout this time. Until one night while we were away on vacation, I received a call from her claiming he was violent and had been abusive and controlling for  years. I now think this entire scenario was a lie. He wanted to end the relationship. We came home to “rescue” her.

The drama has been playing out for almost a year now…. When she went out and created a new hidden life for herself with a 50 year old. My boundary was that she could leave our home and do whatever she wants with her life but she could not live in our home as a result of her “abusive” relationship and begin another clandestine age inappropriate relationship. I would not watch it.

My daughter acts totally impulsively without regard to any consequences. I worry about her safety. So, she left after accusing my partner of being abusive…he is not. He just calls her down on her lies. She rented an apartment less than five blocks from our home and has never spent a night there.

 I guess I feel guilt. I’m not sure why but part of it is my involvement in the abuse allegations relating to her previous relationship. Although, I do think that any 67 year old who gets involved with an 27 year old employee… gets what he deserves. After leaving our home, she tried to pickup right where she left off with me. She contacts me when she needs something. She’s sweet and charming. She doesn’t realize I know she’s lying about everything. She is so unbalanced that it makes me nervous.

[Notwendy]

Thank you so much. That’s the other factor. I also had to go no contact with my mother about ten years ago because of past abuse, her inability to take any responsibility and her ongoing mental abuse of me. When this happened with my daughter, I felt like… Is this me?? Am I the problem??? I don’t appear to have any personal mental issues. I am an entrepreneur with two businesses where I deal with the public continuously. My other personal relationships are fine. But, how can I have to cut off two people who are so dear to me and why do they behave towards me and treat me like they do? I am sorry for your pain as well. I truly never saw anything like this coming. I didn’t even know anything about personality disorder although for the most part I’m a very well informed person.

I have an elderly mother with BPD who is similar to your D. At this point, it's not the past abuse that limits our relationship- it's the lying and manipulation that makes it impossible to have any kind of relationship with her.

There is a difference though and that is the men. My mother met my father early on and they stayed married. At the time he passed away, she didn't seeem interested in a relationship with me- but I maintained contact- due to her being an elderly widow at the time and alone. .

My role to her is that I am useful to her and her interactions with me are if she wants me to do something for her. I have no illusions about it being anything more.

I understand the visceral reaction. I don't live near her but I tend to freeze up when I visit her. I can't tell if she's telling me the truth or not. She does seem to lie for no reason but I think it's about her maintaining control.

Are you being selfish for putting your mental health first? No- if someone's behavior is detrimental to your mental health, you can take care of yourself.

Will she write off the relationship? One thing to consider is- what is the relationship exactly? The reality or the wish for what it is? I realized that what I thought a relationship with my mother is was more about wishing/assuming what it is rather than what it actually is. I was shocked when I realized she lies to me because one of my assumptions is that a mother doesn't lie to their child. I had assumed the characteristics of what I thought a mother-daughter relationship was.

For those who have had to choose NC- it's a last resort decision, made from necessity, and not one anyone wishes to do but feels they have no choice. If your D chooses to write you off- that is on her, not you.

You didn't cause the genes your mother or your D got. However, you have experienced disordered family members and so it is good you are seeking counseling and support for this. Since you are seeking mental health for yourself- I think your provider would have told you if you had a mental disorder so I hope that is reassuring.

[SoooConfused]

Hi CC43,

I wanted to respond to your post but I may be sending you a private message. I haven’t quite figured out the message board.

This site has helped me more than I can express. I am amazed by the details of your step-daughter’s behavior because it mirrors my daughter. We are a very small close family. There was never any outwardly apparent mental illness until her “break-up “ and, still, while I truly couldn’t understand her relationship with someone ten years older than her father or how she has created this very convincing mask…. Now, when I look back at pictures of her. I see the mental illness in her eyes.

The “boundaries” my partner and I established were to protect ourselves if she chose to live with us while she went back to school for her CPA. All the signs were there. Her inability to converse. She even told her dad she was processing what he was saying to her. Her referencing small slights and details from when her father rented a truck and spent four days moving her out of shared house disregarding his work and efforts.

But, our boundaries were simple. Her car and all her assets were put in our name as she battled with her “ex”. We were concerned about protecting her because he was just as unhinged as she is. We only had a few rules. 1) We are new to our town and even the State. So, don’t bring anyone we haven’t met into the house because we knew she was hanging out in the local bars and coming home late. 2) Her car and insurance were in my name. We live in a mountainous area. Do not drink and drive in my car. This is not a no fault State. They will come after our new home if anything happens. 3) There is no reason to lie to us. Just tell us the truth. We don’t care. But, if you lie and we can’t trust you … then we aren’t comfortable with you living here. And, finally 4) Don't start any new age inappropriate and historical abusive relationships until you have at least cleaned up the last mess you made. And, you are an adult, if that’s what you want to do, that’s fine. But, you can’t live here. I won’t watch another mess. She has already been involved in two “abusive” relationships. We to this day stand by these rules. She threw a tantrum on Father’s Day and moved out. We actually changed the locks and installed security cameras because of her unhinged behavior.

The victimhood still astounds me. She was unemployed and not paying and never offered rent although she had ample savings. She broke every rule in the first week. Said her father was abusive  when he called her down on her lies and began to act psychotic.

I’m still shocked that this beautiful,  intelligent,  seemingly high functioning woman is so mentally ill. Snd, that I spoke to her everyday of her life and never noticed anything insane. Nothing. I mean her relationships baffled me but she was an adult. I never tried to interfere.

Reading all the postings here, I realize that I am luck. The minute she showed any violent dark behavior we had her leave.

Thank you for sharing your story with me.

[SoooConfused]

Hi NotWendy,

You are absolutely right. A psychologist once told me that what I was missing was my relationship with the person from the past. That people change and the person I missed was no longer there. This is what I am working thru.

I guess the fact that my daughter who I always trusted implicitly was in fact lying the whole time…. maybe most of her life is just so shocking to me … it actually causes me to have a physical reaction. A panic reaction. Inside I feel paralyzed.

But, looking back on her behaviors is still puzzling. I have to accept that I will never understand the behaviors of an unbalanced mind. And, I just need to move on.

I also have been analyzing why I’m so devastated. Besides the mere shock, what is really happening is I am unable to process my own feelings. It isn’t about her. She apparently doesn’t really care about me. She only sees me and saw me as an instrument to manipulate and use to get what she wanted.

She is aware that something is wrong and I sent her links to the McLean study and the Mayo site describing the condition and treatment…. But I truly doubt she will pursue treatment. It’d require some level of personal responsibility which does not possess even to the smallest degree. I’ve realized from reading all these posts that we are very lucky to have controlled the situation and avoided all the rage and violence I have read about. She exists in s partying,  delusional world. We are lucky.


And, I’m sure I’ll recover and move on from the shock. I am beginning to accept that I’m not losing anything real. I actually find it horrifying that someone can pretend to care to the extent she did and have it be nothing more that a mask… false. In my core, it terrifies me.

[Notwendy]

I’m still shocked that this beautiful,  intelligent,  seemingly high functioning woman is so mentally ill. Snd, that I spoke to her everyday of her life and never noticed anything insane. Nothing. I mean her relationships baffled me but she was an adult. I never tried to interfere.

Reading all the postings here, I realize that I am luck. The minute she showed any violent dark behavior we had her leave.

It is shocking. My BPD mother is also beautiful and intelligent and still looks remarkably good for her age. People outside the family didn't have a clue. It's only in her elder years where she has needed assistance and some family members became more involved that they have caught on to her behavior.

While I grew up with her behavior, it was not until well into adulthood that I realized she lies to me.

I think some pwBPD can have a well crafted and personable "public" persona. My mother does.

She's told some wild and untrue things about me to others. It can feel crazy making. And her thinking can be distorted.

I think this is why they call it "borderline". I know someone who has schitzophrenia and when her thinking is psychotic- it's very obvious and also sad as she isn't in control of it. The purposeful lying feels so crazy- and their thinking doesn't always seem as far from reality.

[Notwendy]

I also understand the shock. I left home for college and didn't spend extended alone time with my mother after that. She appeared as if things were fine and I assumed they were.

When Dad was ill and in the hospital- I stayed with my parents for a short while to help out. BPD mother's behavior understandably escalated during that time due to the stress of the situation, but the extent of it was shocking.

I think there is grief involved when we see a side of this that we didn't realize. Not only did I realize my mother is lying to me- it's that she had been doing it.

I think we do make assumptions about how we want the relationship to be. How could we not? The mother- child relationship is a most significant one. We see this significant person in the best possible light.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[js friend]

Hi SoooConfused,

I know the feeling of not feeling you are respected in your own home. I have currently in been in NC with my udd31 for the last 3years. NC has been her choice but I have had many periods of LC (Limited Contact) with her over the years which has been my choice and tbh life has been a lot better for me over the years since I have been in NC with her. My mental health and anxiety issues  improved so much since having NC with her. You are not being selfish for wanting a better quality of life .My udd is a bully behind closed doors and it was a total nightmare when she lived at home, and as you say the lies and manipulation does often become too much and it got to the stage for me where I didnt ask my udd about anything and that would upset her, so I would also wonder if she got a kick from telling these lies but from what Ive read the lying is part of the disorder, but im still not sure if pwbpd know they are lying and are able to control it or  not  but once I realised that it was part of this disorder I was able to just let it go and it never bothered me again. I honestly dont think I will ever have any kind of a relationship with my udd ever again. Some days I feel sad about it but on the whole Iam ok with it because I have accepted that we may never get in a place to have a healthy relationship.

[CC43]

Hi Confused,

Thanks for the additional color.  It sounds like you are pulling out all the stops to help your daughter, and it must be so hard to see her continue with her poor choices and self-destructive rampages.

I don't know if sharing my stepdaughter's story will help you feel less alone, or if it might give you some clues into your daughter's maladaptive behaviors.  Like I said before, my stepdaughter is beautiful, and she has many talents.  Maybe because of that, she did well in high school.  Her dad was always very supportive of her growing up, and he gave her a lot of freedom, too.  But when she went to college, she fell apart.  Maybe it was partly because she didn't have the support she needed from home.  Maybe college was too challenging for her.  Maybe she thought she could coast by on her looks and talents (much like her real mom), but she bumped up against reality:  adulting is hard, or at least much harder than she expected.  Long story short, she failed her classes.  She had planned to pursue a certain major, but when she discovered how much work it was going to be, she decided to drop it.  And maybe she lost part of her identity in the process.  With BPD, identity seems to be a very loose and variable concept.

Anyway, I think that is when the lying really started.  When her dad asked, "How are your classes going?," she would freeze.  She either lied, or she cut off communications altogether, because she couldn't bear to tell him the truth.  She became so dysregulated that she couldn't problem-solve, either.  I bet she had black-and-white thinking:  I'm a failure.  I'll never amount to anything.  I can't DO this.  Of course, what she might have done is drop one class, or change her major, or switch rooming groups, or talk to professors and ask for extra help or guidance, or make up a class in the summer, or maybe even transfer to a different college.  But her thinking wasn't logical, it was emotional.  She spiraled.  She started self-medicating with pot, and she went downhill from there.  Then she told countless stories about abuse from roommates, friends, siblings, etc., which ultimately became her "excuses" for failing.  Everyone was a bully to her, and yet I suspect she was the one who was bully, acting out in rage because of an endless series of disappointments.  She certainly acted like a bully in our home.

So your daughter is shacking up with older men.  That seems logical from where I'm sitting.  The men are attracted to her, and maybe they act somewhat fatherly and protective towards her.  They're roped in by her stories of abuse.  And in exchange, she gets free shelter, companionship, and maybe even spending money.  Younger guys might not have the resources or the patience for her dramas.  So she goes for older guys, who give her what she thinks she wants.  And maybe they enjoy her for a time, until she gets out of line.  With BPD's unstable moods, this is almost a guarantee.  And she'll end up without a place to stay again.  She's too unhinged to get a stable job and get her own place, so she'll find another man.

I bet she thinks very poorly of herself.  She's embarrassed.  You're upset with her, and she knows it, and she knows that she's the one to blame for that.  She can't bear to tell you the truth, because she's letting herself down, and you, too.  So she'll lie.  In her mind, she might invent a crazy rationale, making YOU responsible for her bad choices, because blaming you is both convenient, and it absolves her of taking responsibility for her actions.  She's so upset with herself that she just can't face it.  She probably hates herself, too.  She doesn't think she's deserving of much, so she's willing to make compromises and engage in risky behavior.  If she loved and respected herself, she wouldn't put herself in harm's way like she does.  But she hates herself, and she's projecting that hatred onto you, I assume.  

Regarding the car that you titled in your name for your daughter's benefit, I'm leery about that move.  Surely you have more assets than your daughter has.  If she's in a drunk driving accident, which sounds like a real risk, any victims could sue you and go after your assets.  To protect you both from that scenario, I'd think that it would be better for your daughter to keep the car in her name.  

I do want to give you some hope.  My stepdaughter turned things around.  She had enormous support from her dad and me.  She just seemed so immature when she went off alone to college.  Her emotional immaturity really got in her way; it's like she was set up to fail, and it's no wonder she did, and she took it so hard.  But she's had a lot of therapy, and she seems more in control of her emotions now.  She's doing much, much better.  She still has a ways to go, but we're not fearing for her life every second of the day now.  It may be that she'll always be emotionally reactive, super-sensitive, and easily discouraged or disappointed.  But I hope that she learns enough resilience to be a functioning adult.  Since she's come back from a pit of despair, I remain hopeful.

[SoooConfused]

Hi JSFriend,

Yes, after her last inappropriate relationship. She expressed fear of retaliation from the 67 year old although I knew him well and although I’d never seen any violence I took her concerns seriously. She filed police reports and obtained a restraining order. We packed up and moved 400 miles away. Now I realize this man was probably just reacting in an immature way to the same lying deceptive behavior we witnessed when we became the target of her delusions. I feel guilty because now that I know she lies about everything… even things of no importance. So, how much of what she told about him was real?? I’ll never know although she has continued to pursue him legally because there was a great deal of complicated financial consequences. I no longer have any interest whatsoever in what she does.

I’ve made it clear that she is free to pursue whatever kind of life she wants. She’s already living with another man 20 years her physical senior and probably 50 years her mental senior. I feel guilt about being aware of her mental state now and having released her upon a community of somewhat rural trusting individuals.

Maybe somehow I hope she will wake up one day with some clarity as to how wrong things have gone and seek help. But, I doubt it. I will never understand what is going on in her head. And, how could I. I am anchored in a very clear world of actions and consequences. I wish she’d moved further away. It’s hard to know she is only five blocks away and yet miles away. I know what probably will happen is that she will suffer another crisis… a failed relationship, a DUI, a listed job. But I can no longer be involved. I’ve kept in contact just because I want her to know if she ever seeks professional help I will support her.

My partner is much colder hearted than I. That’s not a criticism. He has survived this much better. But, he grew up with five sisters who all have varying degrees of mental disturbances. I on the other hand, was extremely hands on with my daughter. She was raised with every advantage. Extremely good educational resources. Sports, activities, travel. In the back of my mind, I can’t help but feel responsible that I looked pass her worrying behaviors since her teen years. I thought they were normal. I also can’t shake the feeling that she’s just an immature spoiled brat who is used to using her looks and intelligence to get what she wants. The personality disorder seems sometimes like a nice excuse for bad behavior.

I just need to pull myself together and move on. I am beginning to feel more removed. I am happier than when this was all happening about two months ago. I’m disappointed in myself. I should have questioned her more. But, I would still be in the same place because I never would have turned my back when she cried out for help. I feel foolish now. But, I know I should appreciate my life. The love of my partner and my new home which was hard fought for.

I guess it will always be hard and it will always feel fantastical that she lives and breathes a delusion. Nothing she says is true. She can’t keep her lies straight. I just need to accept that until she seeks help (she has every resource at her disposal) things will not change.

Thank you for your insight and support. You have my sympathies for what you are going through as well. I have led a very eventful life and this is by far the most painful and difficult thing I’ve ever lived through.

[CC43]

And now getting to your question about limiting contact.

My opinion is that if you limit contact with your daughter, it's because you need it, to protect yourself from harm.  If she is abusing you, tormenting you or a danger to your mental health, then you most certainly should reduce contact with her.  You are no help to her, or to yourself, if she is tormenting you and harming you in the process.  I hope you aren't shunning her because you feel YOU are to blame for her dysfunction, as I bet she's been claiming.  It's not your fault.  So I think it's normal for you to feel worry, but you shouldn't also feel guilt.

However, if you are limiting contact mainly to "teach her a lesson," or to try to compel her to do something (or not to do it), then I think there could be adverse repercussions.  As you stated, pwBPD have fear of abandonment, and they could easily interpret a lack of communication as a slight.  You love your daughter, and cutting off contact completely could mean that you lose track of her.  I bet she needs you, maybe more than ever, and losing contact could be yet another obstacle for her if she decides to go down the road to recovery.

It's normal to take communication breaks, and with BPD it's probably normal to insist that loved ones live elsewhere.  But in my mind, that doesn't mean that they never visit, never text or never talk on the phone ever again.   My general approach is to invite the pwBPD to every family gathering, and to invite them to dinner from time to time.  It's their choice whether they show up.  And I have zero expectations for a RSVP; and even if they say they're going to come, I have zero expectations that they will actually show up.  If I'm stood up, I'll just think, they weren't ready for contact today, and we probably saved ourselves from a meltdown.

I wish you and your daughter some peace.

[SoooConfused]

Hi CC43,

We could be talking about the same child.

That’s exactly what happened to my daughter. Don’t worry. I do have a lot more assets than she does. Once I became aware of her behaviors, I took her car away from her until I was able to transfer it to her. I have severed all ties. She has slowly been trying to hurt me….one by one severing obscure ties like removing her cellphone from our account (because I could see her activities). It’s how I got a great deal of the information that helped me understand the situation. Removing herself from our Apple family. etc etc. She thinks she’s hurting me

[SoooConfused]

Hi CC43,

We could be talking about the same child.

That’s exactly what happened to my daughter. Don’t worry. I do have a lot more assets than she does. Once I became aware of her behaviors, I took her car away from her until I was able to transfer it to her. I have severed all ties. She has slowly been trying to hurt me….one by one severing obscure ties like removing her cellphone from our account (because I could see her activities). It’s how I got a great deal of the information that helped me understand the situation. Removing herself from our Apple family. etc etc. She thinks she’s hurting me

Thank you for sharing your story. It actually is helping me s great deal to realize it is a shared experience and I’m not just deal with a psychotic.

Sorry my last post didn’t post completely.

[js friend]

Hi again SoooConfused,

I thought id hop back on. In regards of having relationships with older men....All my udd's b/fs that I know of have all been older than her. One of them I actually saw although I was never introduced to was significantly older than her....at least probably my age. Iknow when my udd was young she would alwaysnsay that she wasnt interested in boys her own age and always stated that she found them too immature. With me so being nieve to my udds behaviour at the time I just thought she wasnt interested in boys at that age. How wrong I was. Now I can look back and see that it was all happening behind my back!!!!

Anyway,  I think she has liked older boys/now men because they provide more stability with money, houses and careers and often have more patience and perhaps are more easy to manipulate than someone her own age. She last had a job at 16yo which lasted for a month and has always found someone to support her. She is a very pretty girl with a good figure and they probably feel very lucky to have her at their age in life,  but then so often it has turned bad. Im not sure why....either  udd gets tired of them or they begin to figure things and I now of three times she has made police reports  accusing them of abuse which has been intended to ruin their lives.  On the daily I dont know why she lies but In this instance my udd knows what she is doing when she has told lies against her former partners and has lied as a form of retribution.

[js friend]

I meant to also add that my udd started lying from around 3yo among other behaviours that I noticed. I mentioned in another post that I would often read the story "The boy who cried wolf " to my children and emphasised the importance of telling the truth at all times really hoping it would get through to them and especially to udd....but it never did. So one day I looked up udd's behaviours including the lying and it said that she could be a "psychopath"!

[SoooConfused]

Hi JSFriend,

I don’t know why … and I am extremely sympathetic to everyone’s pain… but I find others stories very comforting. I thought I was all alone.

I think that you and CC43 really nailed the older man thing. And, the part I find really hard to believe about a “personality disorder” is calculation, malevolence, and maliciousness.

If it’s an “uncontrolled” emotions/personality disorder, then how can I look at my daughter’s behavior from this March-July. She planned the whole incident out. For months. That is extreme control. She started spreading lies about her father and I back in March to illicit the sympathies of her new friends and new older man. I noticed particularly with one (whose elevator may not go to the top floor) friend a distinct dislike and weird behavior towards me. It really gave my daughters game away. I questioned her. She made some excuse. But now I see her game. She wanted  new support system. Unfortunately, I told her the problem lies in the fact that her parents have her best interests at heart. Friends have their own agendas.

My daughter started lying at around 14. Until then she was extremely truthful and inquisitive. I mean… she could have been lying and I was unaware. She’s extremely intelligent and pretty. She uses it. I too worried that she was psychopathic the last month she was here with us. I spoke with a psychiatrist about her. I asked if bpd was more like alcoholism or schizophrenia. They said alcoholism. So feel it is more controllable than portrayed perhaps. When I look at the behavior I witnessed, she calculatedly went through the house and took the strange things … the hydrogen peroxide, my jar of chives, her winter boots from a box in my closet that I hadn’t even realized contained my boots. The kind of things you go to use two months later… she started planning her departure months before she had her far travel to our home State, pack up and physically move all her belongings. The next weekend she started throwing a fit and leaving.


I think all of this makes me feel confused.

[Notwendy]

I don't know if you have addiction or alcoholism in your family- sometimes there is that and BPD but what the psychiatrist said - with BPD being similar to alcoholism is that the relationship dynamics between having a family member with alcoholism are very similar to having a family member with BPD. Because of this similarity, I have found 12 step programs- ACA and CODA to be helpful.

It's the dynamics and changing them that are the keys to hope for change- but the change doesn't usually begin with the disordered family member but with the people connected to them making their own changes.

I don't think your partner is more cold hearted- I think he's more objective because he hasn't been a part of the dynamics. It's sometimes harder for family members to see their part because in a family, it's their "normal" - which can happen when we also grow up in a family where there's a disordered person. In my situation, having enabler/co-dependent behaviors was the "normal". It took someone else- a counselor- 12 step sponsor- to help me to make my own changes.

Even if our relationship is difficult, I am capable of having my elderly mother's best interest in mind, but like your D, she will trust a stranger before she trusts me or considers my advice. It has helped to not see this as personal - her other trustworthy family members have offered help too and she doesn't trust them either.

The reason for this is projection. BPD behavior is most present with the people they are most attached to. A person with BPD does not see their own uncomfortable feelings as being theirs and instead, projects them on to others, or something else. Projection and denial are also seen in alcohol addiction. This is probably why the psychiatrist mentioned the comparison.

I know someone with schitzophrenia and it's different. When she's hallucinating, she has no control or awareness that what she thinks isn't real- and it's so far fetched, nobody would buy into it. The dynamics are different with people close to her because it's clear that helping her isn't enabling her- because she is obviously mentally ill and needs the help. The distinction between helping and enabling is sometimes harder to decide with BPD.

They are both challenging situations. However, interventions with families that may help with alcohol addiction may also help with families with BPD- but would not be as helpful for schitzophrenia.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

Hi again Confused,

I have another person with undiagnosed NPD in my life.  He lies all the time, to serve whatever purpose he has at the moment.  I think the distinction between BPD and NPD is that NPD thinks he's unique and SPECIAL.  He expects others to follow rules, and yet he is exempt because of his special status.  Therefore he lies easily, and he exaggerates extensively, once again due to his uniqueness.  He seems to believe himself to be "above the law."  He often lies to make excuses for his poor behavior, and for his inability to fulfill obligations.  He is very calculating and conniving, and he might even try to destroy others who have supposedly wronged him.  Thus his lying tends to be more manipulative, and intellectual, than the lying by a pwBPD, which in my opinion is driven by emotional dysregulation, stress and/or avoidance tactics.  His fabrications are convincing, and he can be very charming when he wants to be; but when you discover the web of lies designed to ruin your life or reputation, you might consider him sociopathic.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, many of the behaviors typical of BPD and NPD overlap.  Blaming, extreme self-centeredness, constant need for attention and apparent lack of empathy for others are commonalities.  I'd say that vindictiveness and misguided attempts to exact retribution are also common with BPD and NPD.  Both seem to function and act like surly teens.
 Both the BPD and udNPD in my life had substance abuse issues which made things worse for both of them.  And both seemed very depressed, withdrawing from the world for extended periods.

But the pwBPD was ultimately able to recognize that she had problems, even if she still blamed others for the longest time.  The pwNPD thinks he's special, and I don't believe he will ever admit that he's the main reason for all his problems.  He's too arrogant to believe that.  Even if he did see a doctor, he'd argue that medical treatments don't work on his body or psyche, because he believes that his body and mind are special, superior and immune to modern treatments.  I suspect that he's depressed, but that he might LIKE being depressed, because he convinces his family to do all sorts of things for him that he should be doing for himself.  He will enjoy being on disability and think he's "won" by getting financial benefits and familial support without doing anything.

[SoooConfused]

Hi CC43,

I did a lot of research on personality disorders after speaking with the professionals I found. I was surprised that all three diagnosed her within the first 10-15 minutes of talking with me. One had me read Walking on Eggshells. I actually never felt that with my daughter. We always had an amicable relationship. It was the mask. I was important to her. She created a persona to please me and I feel and felt that she was an adult and was free to make her own life choices. It was once the pressure of living with us became too much that her shell broke.

I took the quiz in that book. Her personality traits and behaviors were almost evenly slip between NPD and BPD. Her feeling of superiority and the rules don’t apply to me is evident in her drinking and driving. She thinks drinking does not affect her like “other” people   She’s 5’5” 110 lbs. the second drink puts her over the limit.

I’m hoping that she seeks help at least for the BPD aspects of her behavior.

I’m saddened by the fact that the NPD elements do not appear to be easily treated if at all. Both of my parents possessed traits of NPD or as one professional labeled my mother malignant narcissist. It is insidious. They are extremely high functioning individuals. I was in my 50’s before I realized that I was of no real importance to them. I was just a character in their life story. Meanwhile I felt tortured. Every once in awhile I reflect on something that happened in my younger life and realize I was dealing with someone who did not have my best interests at heart but was manipulating me for their desires. My daughter is doing the same thing.


After she left, I became aware and began analyzing her behaviors over the last 3 to 4 months of her time here. She was conniving, calculating and planned her “escape” with precision.
This manipulation is what is the source of my lack of desire for contact. I am obviously easily manipulated by my loved ones. She is an expert. Once I realized everything she said was a lie … mostly pointless… I really don’t want to talk to her to preserve my own sanity. It’s too confusing. I’m not cutting off communications as a punishment. I’m doing it for  my safety and self preservation. I find it hard to believe I am surrounded by family members with such disordered personalities… it makes you question yourself and your thinking and your decisions constantly.

Thank you for all your helpful insights.

[SoooConfused]

Hi NotWendy,

There is really not addictive behaviors on eith side of our families. Ig might be why my daughter’s behaviors really stood out to me. It was her coping with the stress of her lies.

I think now that her psychotic behaviors were simply her inability to cope with 1) the stress of her loss of relationship 2) the stress of her parents seeing thru the mask 3) the rules we put in place on her behavior in our home. It was just too much.

She has approached me several times lately with her usual carefree amiable demeanor. But, now I absolutely don’t trust her. How could I?? I feel every time she’s nice… she wants something.

I have realized that besides the shock of realization that there was something this wrong with someone this close it me… I have also been on an emotional roller coaster with her. First, she’s a normal young adult running a company. Homeowner, social butterfly seemingly very successful. Then, she’s the victim of long term domestic violence with police, lawyers and court involvement, and then she’s right back to a new inappropriate hidden relationship and psychotic behaviors.

Sometimes I see things clearly and realize I’m lucky to have come thru all of this relatively unscathed. Things could have turned out far worse.

Lately, since it appears she has no intentions of getting real help and is living happily with her new victim, I’ve been feeling that if she’s happy. I can live with that. I just am waiting for the next shoe to fall when I don’t just welcome her back into my world. When her 50 yo bf is not invited to my house for the holidays. We have never spent a holiday apart.

But. It’s strange. And I’ve felt this way since the day she walked out the door. I do not feel comfortable around her. She has never given me any indications of violence… but that’s what I feel. I also just watched her take vengeance of her last victim who “rejected” her. Now that I feel I see what’s going on … she makes me nervous.

[Flossy]

I also had to go no contact with my mother about ten years ago because of past abuse, her inability to take any responsibility and her ongoing mental abuse of me. When this happened with my daughter, I felt like… Is this me?? Am I the problem???  But, how can I have to cut off two people who are so dear to me and why do they behave towards me and treat me like they do?

My mother had Narcissistic Personality Disorder (undiagnosed) and my 53 year old daughter has BPD (undiagnosed). I asked myself the same questions.

My conclusions after years of study is that I was the Scapegoat for my mother. My daughter married a Narcissist. She no longer needed me as he is wealthy. She initiated No Contact 15 years ago. Her reasoning? I had felt suicidal after developing C-PTSD while discovering my mother's pathological NPD and I made the mistake of telling my daughter. (This was only 2 years after the death of my son from lung disease...my daughter's brother).

She told me she cut contact with me as she was angry with me because "how do you think I felt having to ring you the next day to see that you were alive?". I personally think that was a convenient lie.

She no longer needed me and was afraid I was a risk to her marriage to a controlling wealthy husband. I had only recently taken time to have all mention from the internet of her embezzling money from the job she had as a Bank Teller and being charged.

I had sent an email to her husbands business email as she had cut other forms of contact and he read the email. He had no idea that she had done this, she never told him. I believe this caused her to consider me a threat as she feared I could reveal all of the other risky dangerous events in her chosen lifestyle.

I tried for 10 years constantly to talk with her and see her, any form of contact to remedy the issues. She refused all efforts. I do not know her address but I did travel to her husbands business years ago to no avail. About three years ago I went through a period of anger at her. Then two years ago, I realised that I could actually have a nice life for the rest of my years. I am 71. I decided that I no longer would reconcile with her if she did want reconciliation. Now I feel that way still, regardless of any positive conditions offered or any presentation of change or maturing.

I do not want her back in my life. I have worked hard over the past two years to study how to block women with BPD from my life as I do attract them. I now no longer have one Narcissist or one person with BPD in my life as I can use tests I have learned for gauging whether they fit either profile. I act on it immediately now. Despite years of accepting all people and being non judgemental. I quietly observe, and as soon as there are signs I disengage without conflict. I learned the Gray Rock method and I use it with both PD's.

I had 18months of life coaching and 13 more years of study on Youtube and the DSM-5.

Life is great with one a######## in it. This is my life now and I love it.
I know how to deal with grief and I am through it apart from the occasional sadness that lasts for half an hour at the most once or twice a month. Far better than the years of torment, terror and abuse.
I am nobody's scapegoat or victim and I will never allow that abuse again and it is abuse. My belief is that these people are manipulative, liars, greedy, selfish and brattish. Not mentally ill in the true sense of the words.  Underdeveloped, immature with some kind of brain damage or faulty brain function, possibly a form of psychosis or a mix of a couple of issues.

So, my opinion is do it. Do what your intellect is telling you is the right thing to do. The sensible thing, the horrible thing as a mother, but the right thing when the offspring is flawed to the extreme and unable to be improved or fixed.......and that is the truth. No medication, no residential, no DBT will fix or improve it. She will only learn to mask it and pretend and manipulate to get what she wants until the next time she has a meltdown.

Bugger that. I hope I have 20 more years of this bliss. Best wishes

[Notwendy]

I am not NC with my BPD mother but I also limit contact with her. I can relate to the uncomfortable feeling around her. I think it's because so much of what she presents, what I assumed, is an illusion. If she's being nice to me, it feels insincere. I feel anxious and guarded around her.

While she is less functional in the workplace than your D- she also presented an exterior that is social and competent. Nobody had a clue what went on in our home.

I think you have good boundaries and it isn't selfish to do so.

[Notwendy]

I am nobody's scapegoat or victim and I will never allow that abuse again and it is abuse. My belief is that these people are manipulative, liars, greedy, selfish and brattish. Not mentally ill in the true sense of the words.  Underdeveloped, immature with some kind of brain damage or faulty brain function, possibly a form of psychosis or a mix of a couple of issues.

So, my opinion is do it. Do what your intellect is telling you is the right thing to do. The sensible thing, the horrible thing as a mother, but the right thing when the offspring is flawed to the extreme and unable to be improved or fixed.......and that is the truth. No medication, no residential, no DBT will fix or improve it. She will only learn to mask it and pretend and manipulate to get what she wants until the next time she has a meltdown.


Bugger that. I hope I have 20 more years of this bliss. Best wishes

I agree- to be the "horrible" daughter that people assume is "not taking care of" her elderly mother is a difficult concept to deal with. This is not what I wanted to do. The mother-daughter bond is something one can wish for- if it were possible. However, for my BPD mother- this is a potential relationship to exploit. My boundaries with her are protective, not with any cruel intent.