The manipulation is what kills me

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi. I have only posted a couple of other times. I am having a tough time with my uBPD adult sibling and my larger family system. My uBPD sibling is highly functional, and well-versed in manipulation tactics. They cut anyone out of their lives who challenge them or their line of thinking and perceive disagreement or hesitation as a direct criticism. Everyone else in my family enables this and has for our entire lives. I believe its so they don't have to experience the consequences of challenging them - something I have always done because many times what my sibling says is inaccurate, exaggerated, or simply untrue. I have been cut out of their lives for years at a time for bringing a concern to them about their partner and seeking help to address it. Later, I was accused of asserting they should not marry their partner and that was used as justification for both cutting me out for a year and then ignoring me and my family when we would come to town. They have claimed I have said so many hurtful things I never said and have used it to justify such hurtful behavior over the years. There is just absolutely no winning here - and the only way I see for a relationship is to acquiesce to the inaccuracies. I won't call them lies because I truly believe THEY believe these things happened. But they didn't. And they have no one around them in their lives who will challenge them. If they did have anyone at any point that might challenge them, they've been cut out completely and replaced with people who "know better" - including their partner, kids, and sadly (for me) the rest of my family.

The hard part is - some of the things they claim I said, I did say during arguments - but these are things that anyone would say during a fight. These truths are mixed in with such obvious exaggerated and absurd lies and false claims about me that it's just crazy-making. And its so much worse because the rest of family just goes along with it. Now, she doesn't say these things about me to them - I dont know how they'd react if she did - they all just want to act like this is a "normal" relationship between two people who simply don't get along. This has been particularly difficult recently because my uBPD sibling's family is going through a crisis and they approached me out of nowhere to see if I would stand up publicly and support them despite the fact that I do not know what is truth and what is a lie. I asked for them to talk with me and answer my questions and they refused. I let them know without more info I could not do that, but I would support them in any other way I could. That was enough to say that I can never be forgiven.

I won't get into everything over the years that has led to this broken relationship because its exhausting and painful and I've already been through all of it too often. I will say that during a recent (and likely last) attempt at relational repair, they said I deserved to be alienated from my family (which I am not - other than them) and that it felt good to hurt me. The rest of my family is just trying to keep things calm and act as though all of this is normal. And that feels just terrible. But I am still connected. And that is my dilemma. I can limit my relationship with my uBPD sibling - that actually is something I've already decided. But, the family system that supports/enables this will always be there - and I will always be hurt by it. Not sure if this means I need to really consider cutting them all out - something I just don't want to do unless its the only way for me to manage. It just feels like this is what my uBPD sibling has been aiming for all along - and for the life of me, I cannot figure out why.

[Intotheforest]

Hi. I have only posted a couple of other times. I am having a tough time with my uBPD adult sibling and my larger family system. My uBPD sibling is highly functional, and well-versed in manipulation tactics. They cut anyone out of their lives who challenge them or their line of thinking and perceive disagreement or hesitation as a direct criticism. Everyone else in my family enables this and has for our entire lives. I believe its so they don't have to experience the consequences of challenging them - something I have always done because many times what my sibling says is inaccurate, exaggerated, or simply untrue. I have been cut out of their lives for years at a time for bringing a concern to them about their partner and seeking help to address it. Later, I was accused of asserting they should not marry their partner and that was used as justification for both cutting me out for a year and then ignoring me and my family when we would come to town. They have claimed I have said so many hurtful things I never said and have used it to justify such hurtful behavior over the years. There is just absolutely no winning here - and the only way I see for a relationship is to acquiesce to the inaccuracies. I won't call them lies because I truly believe THEY believe these things happened. But they didn't. And they have no one around them in their lives who will challenge them. If they did have anyone at any point that might challenge them, they've been cut out completely and replaced with people who "know better" - including their partner, kids, and sadly (for me) the rest of my family.

The hard part is - some of the things they claim I said, I did say during arguments - but these are things that anyone would say during a fight. These truths are mixed in with such obvious exaggerated and absurd lies and false claims about me that it's just crazy-making. And its so much worse because the rest of family just goes along with it. Now, she doesn't say these things about me to them - I dont know how they'd react if she did - they all just want to act like this is a "normal" relationship between two people who simply don't get along. This has been particularly difficult recently because my uBPD sibling's family is going through a crisis and they approached me out of nowhere to see if I would stand up publicly and support them despite the fact that I do not know what is truth and what is a lie. I asked for them to talk with me and answer my questions and they refused. I let them know without more info I could not do that, but I would support them in any other way I could. That was enough to say that I can never be forgiven.

I won't get into everything over the years that has led to this broken relationship because its exhausting and painful and I've already been through all of it too often. I will say that during a recent (and likely last) attempt at relational repair, they said I deserved to be alienated from my family (which I am not - other than them) and that it felt good to hurt me. The rest of my family is just trying to keep things calm and act as though all of this is normal. And that feels just terrible. But I am still connected. And that is my dilemma. I can limit my relationship with my uBPD sibling - that actually is something I've already decided. But, the family system that supports/enables this will always be there - and I will always be hurt by it. Not sure if this means I need to really consider cutting them all out - something I just don't want to do unless its the only way for me to manage. It just feels like this is what my uBPD sibling has been aiming for all along - and for the life of me, I cannot figure out why.

[Notwendy]

The rest of my family is just trying to keep things calm and act as though all of this is normal. And that feels just terrible. But I am still connected. And that is my dilemma. I can limit my relationship with my uBPD sibling - that actually is something I've already decided. But, the family system that supports/enables this will always be there - and I will always be hurt by it. Not sure if this means I need to really consider cutting them all out - something I just don't want to do unless its the only way for me to manage. It just feels like this is what my uBPD sibling has been aiming for all along - and for the life of me, I cannot figure out why.

Me either and unfortunately this also included my father. At the time of his passing, BPD mother was angry at me. I don't know what she said to her extended family but I do know she told them to not speak to me. She has denied saying this and her family has too, but I know because one of them told me (reliable).

I didn't want to cut contact with all of them, but I did reach out to some of them and they didn't respond. One did, basically saying if I tried to contact him again, he'd have to notify my mother. (Can't imagine what she told him). I didn't go NC with them, they went NC with me until BPD mother lifted her ban somehow. By then, I had no interest in contact, but I remained polite and cordial ( and not too close).

So why do they (my mother with BPD, your sibling) do this? I think it's Karpman triangle and family dynamics- if we don't follow the family pattern, the family will first try to draw us back in, even if it's punitive. If we resist- they will cast out the non compliant member.

I took the path of being cordial, polite, and emotionally distant. If they were going to hear things about me, they would have no evidence to believe them. If I tried to clear the stories, then it would look like I was saying my mother lied. They wouldn't believe me and it would confirm their false impression of me.

Years later- and this is a long time- some of them were traveling near me and asked me to meet for dinner. I didn't know what to expect. I was actually a bit nervous about it. What would they want? It was at dinner that they apoligized. They had seen through my mother's behavior. They wanted to reconnect.

I was so surprised. I never expected this. I have gone though my whole childhood with adults turning the other way, and not acknowleging my mother's behavior. They told me they really didn't know but now that they saw her behavior, some of the things they thought were odd began to make sense.

I still am wary of anyone in my mother's circle but we are on a path of reconciling.

Stay polite, distant and focus on your own circumstances. If your family members choose to still be involved in your sister's dysfunction- that is their decision. I consider anyone in my mother's circle to be someone I need to not get too close to.

[zachira]

Unfortunately we can't control what other people choose to believe. The safe healthy people do their best not to take sides and know that just because someone says something that does not make it true. Those that choose to believe the lies and later find out the truth, even if it is many years later, will sometimes be truly sorry about how they were manipulated into believing and participating in  the smear campaigns.

[Intotheforest]

Thanks for these responses. And I’m so sorry for what you both have experienced. I cannot imagine anyone in my family acknowledging any of this. I’ve long thought it was unusual to be the only one in the family to recognize what’s happening when there’s an uBPD sibling. I think the anger and hurt I feel is as much about them normalizing her behavior and her treatment of me in particular. Trying to relate to her in any kind of healthy way that balances her needs with mine is impossible. And my family not only accepts that but expects me to accept it too. They see nothing wrong with it. And when I’m excluded/isolated because I don’t accept it, they see nothing wrong with it. It just seems so cruel that her disorder and her self centered /serving behavior are what they protect. I know I need to accept it and try not to personalize it…but that was easier when I didn’t yet see the way my whole family system enabled and continue to enable it.

[Rudi]

Do you think it's possible your family does respond to your sibling, but in private?  I'm a mother of an adult BPD daughter.  I too try to act like everything's normal during family gatherings to keep things civil.  I try very hard to shield my son from the drama during family visits.  I do, however, confront my daughter in private and that can get pretty explosive--definitely not something I want my son to have to experience.

[Intotheforest]

Do you think it's possible your family does respond to your sibling, but in private?  I'm a mother of an adult BPD daughter.  I too try to act like everything's normal during family gatherings to keep things civil.  I try very hard to shield my son from the drama during family visits. 

I appreciate this perspective so much. As I make sense of what has happened in my family of origin, it’s taken years for me to recognize just how abnormal they were - and just how hurtful. I do believe my parents did the best they could, and yet that never included effectively holding my sibling accountable. It’s possible they tried - and I was always “ok” and “resilient” and ultimately thrived. I did this while trying to protect and support my sibling when they inevitably failed or fell short in certain goals. I’m realizing this engendered fierce silent jealousy rather than a healthy relationship. I think my parents saw my successes as evidence that I was ok and so turned their attention where it was needed. I don’t fault them at all. And I’m trying to get to a place where I don’t fault my uBPD or my “healthy” siblings for accepting and perpetuating the dynamic that continuously isolates me. I’m the family scapegoat. I’m just figuring out what that means.

And, it’s really frustrating to me that I care this much. I’ve built a beautiful loving, healthy family with adult kids of my own. I’ve developed a strong friend network and great family relationships on my partners side. I also can have at least surface level relationships with my healthy siblings and their kids. I’m in a pretty good spot despite everything. I should just let it go and be thankful. But something about knowing my family of origin accepts the way my uBPD sibling treats me and that they participate in it is so deeply hurtful. And the fact that my uBPD sibling continues to do these things to actively demonize and isolate me is also deeply hurtful. I guess I just need to accept it and stop trying to fight it. Which seems so deeply unjust.

[zachira]

I have a sister with NPD and a large extended family with several relatives who likely meet the criteria for BPD and/or NPD that consists of people who are scapegoats, golden children, and flying monkeys who enable the abuse of the scapegoats. I am very low contact or no contact with most of my relatives. I have accepted that the latest round of abuse hurts because it does, though with all the work I have done through years of therapy, etc., I do not let the latest round of abuse (whether it is of me or another scapegoat) rent so much space in my head. Trying to not feel hurt by what your family does, can allow the feelings to pile up and lead to becoming overwhelmed with hurt and anger. There is always going to be another hurtful incidence of being treated badly for no reason, just because the flying monkeys want to remain part of the tribe and they are unwilling to take responsibility for how they enable abuse because if they did it would mean taking a hard look at how they enable the abuses and the abusers.

[Intotheforest]

I’m only just learning about “the flying monkeys”. I think at this point they hurt more than my uBPD sibling. I’m so tired of watching them validate my sibling and, by default, invalidate me. I really just need to figure out whether I can maintain this surface level connection with them and their families while limiting my uBPD sibling to no or very low contact or whether I need to just walk away from all of it. It’s an agonizing decision and no matter what I do, I’ll be deeply hurt.

[zachira]

The enabling of disordered people by flying monkeys can hurt more than the core abuses. Walking away or staying are both hurtful. I finally had to end my relationship with my sister with NPD with strong BPD traits and it hurt more than I could ever have imagined because of all the flying monkeys who support her.

[TelHill]

Do you think it's possible your family does respond to your sibling, but in private?  I'm a mother of an adult BPD daughter.  I too try to act like everything's normal during family gatherings to keep things civil.  I try very hard to shield my son from the drama during family visits.  I do, however, confront my daughter in private and that can get pretty explosive--definitely not something I want my son to have to experience.

That’s an ideal reaction to BPD dysregulated behavior, Rudi. I would have loved my dad to do that.

My mom is dBPD and my only sibling is a high functioning person with a personality disorder. I suspect it’s BPD. My dad and I don’t have these issues. My dad does see these issues  he’s told me to forget or get over it.

 It would definitely help to hear some direct truth and empathy but it’s not his style.  He’s told me stories about relatives he knew as a young adult when I complained about my brother taking my stuff. He told me the unbelievable things a personality disordered relative would perpetrate on other relatives(brother upon brother, uncle upon nephew). There was no police in this area. The survivors had to move on like nothing happened. He told me this so I’ll follow suit.

He is much more sympathetic about my disordered cousins (Anti-social, bpd and personality disorder traits for almost all). He’s told me to act LC towards them — say hello and goodbye to paraphrase him.

I think the anger and hurt I feel is as much about them normalizing her behavior and her treatment of me in particular. Trying to relate to her in any kind of healthy way that balances her needs with mine is impossible. And my family not only accepts that but expects me to accept it too. They see nothing wrong with it. And when I’m excluded/isolated because I don’t accept it, they see nothing wrong with it. It just seems so cruel that her disorder and her self centered /serving behavior are what they protect. I know I need to accept it and try not to personalize it…but that was easier when I didn’t yet see the way my whole family system enabled and continue to enable it.

What you describe is the expectation of family members to stop or prevent embarrassment or shame. I’m the scapegoat or the forgotten child. He’s supposed to be the star though he’s messed up many things up in his life. In many ways, I’ve had some accomplishments which are embarrassing to my family because I, the girl, have done them and not the boy.As I said above the role we’re expected to play is to take it and forget.

I’ve gone LC with my sibling over many months of agonizing about his disordered behavior.I can’t take any more of this and I’ll never forget. I don’t trust him with any information about me. I don’t need the pain he tends to leave in his wake.

It’s taken a lot of work to let go of expectations of the type of love or care from them which everyone deserves from their family. I try not to dwell too long on this. I can’t change him (I think his abuse of me would ramp up if I tried). I’m grateful there are these forums and much good information on how to live a good life even with difficult family members.

[TelHill]

I wanted to add they might be afraid of your sister and are going along to get along. The disordered eventually make themselves known to whomever they come in contact with, especially when the scapegoat is out of their line of sight.

They need another scapegoat somewhere since you’re not around.

[Intotheforest]

This conversation is so helpful. I had gone low contact really for the past 20 years without even realizing they were uBPD, always feeling guilty and a deep sense of loss and guilt. After years of therapy and work around what I thought was a pivotal childhood trauma I’ve been able to recognize that my sibling was the primary source of trauma. As I’ve come to recognize my sibling’s uBPD and its impact on me and our relationship, I’ve cycled through anger, sorrow, guilt, grief, the whole bit.

And just when I thought I had that figured out and was on my way to acceptance and healing, I had to accept all the ways the rest of my family normalized my suffering as acceptable collateral damage through the years. Cue the cycle of anger, sorrow, and grief all over again. But somehow worse.

Just recently I made the mistake of reaching out to them because as we get older and since I had been low contact for so long, I  needed to know I had done everything I could to try to repair the broken relationship. I don’t know what I expected, but was met with accusations that I said things I didn’t say that explain their consistent mistreatment of me through the years and assertions that I deserved to suffer, I brought it on myself, and that it felt good to hurt me. So, yeah. I’ve got my answer. I’ve done what I can. And I’ve watched as my family, yet again, has circled around my sibling during their most recent crisis. And once again, I’m the uncaring one who won’t come running.

Anyway, this is helping realize that I’m not alone in experiencing these things, and that helps so much. Thank you all.