Anxiety about uBPDw's finances, and frustration

[campbembpd]

A lot of things have been giving me anxiety lately. There are some bigger upcoming conversations that I would prefer to do with the help of a therapist. My uBPDw has agreed to see someone so that's a positive. Some larger financial conversations and overall ways things need to change and boundary setting, etc.

However something immediate came up I'm going to need to address and it's stressing the hell out of me. When I say this out loud I feel like I'm the biggest wimp. Like any friend of mine would say WTH are you even thinking?

In a nutshell we saw a financial counselor last June or so. We agreed to a budget and that my wife would transfer a set amount to the joint account every month. That full amount hasn't been transferred in since July. That's part of the bigger discussion I want to wait until we're in therapy to address. She is making regular income and it's not a matter if she has the money, she just blows through it and if she has some to transfer after she pays for the things she wants she transfers what 'she can'. She was short about $3500 for a 5 month period for the minimal amount that she was supposed to help but yet had over $17k for herself that. Spent on going out to eat, clothes and travel (she goes on at least 1 girls trip a year).

Anyway so frustrated with this. We're deep in debt and financial conversation have NEVER gone well. So I avoid them but that's not going to work any longer.

So the immediate issue came up where she just texted me that she's thinking of booking a $500 flight to see her mom for her 85th birthday. I love her mom, we had her here for Christmas. However that's another not small expense for another 3-4 day trip (eating out, etc). If it was only this trip or expense it wouldn't be a big deal but:

a) she just went to Europe in November on a girls trip
b) she has another girls trip planned in May (much less expensive, isn't paying for accommodations, cheap flight)
c) the biggest factor is we have tentatively planned a very expensive european cruise later in the year for a big anniversary for us. I want to go but we have to tighten our belts so to speak. 

I've crunched the numbers and the only way it's remotely possible is if she contributes at a bare minimum what she agreed to every month, we don't have other trips this year and need to stay very strict on our budget. In addition, if she earns excess money it really needs to go towards the trip. I have decided I will not go further into debt for this trip.

So I don't want to bring up everything above but I'm dreading having to weigh in on her visiting her mom. She constantly says things like she doesn't know how much longer her mom has (she's in her 80s, so not untrue).

By the time I get responses I will likely already have the conversation with her because she'll bring it up again. I'm trying to psych myself up to at least saying at a minimum I'm 100% okay with her going but I need her to prioritize our family finances first and I need her to transfer that money into the joint account.

So right now I feel like I have to be the asshole and say no, I don't think it's a good idea to spend that money

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[HurtAndTired]

Hi Camp,

I hear you about tough financial conversations. My wife spends like she is a sailor on shore leave. Retail therapy is a major soother for her, and her crap (more shoes than Emelda Marcos, tons of purses, and designer clothes that she never wears) occupies three closets in the house, many plastic storage trunks in the basement and garage, and she has been trying to take my closet in the guest room and the closet of S3 to boot. She loves throwing extravagant parties where she provides all the food and drink, and also loves taking fabulous vacations. The problem is that I have funded most of this and have gone into debt doing so.

When I put my boundaries into place 17 months ago, letting her pressure me into spending money was one of the first things I addressed as it was causing me major amounts of stress. When she suggests a party or a vacation, I tell her that I would be happy to attend the party or go on the vacation with her, but that I cannot afford to pay for it. That usually shuts her down. I have let her know that I am working on getting out of all my credit card debt in the next two years and that I will not be buying anything that we cannot fit into a strict budget. Since we have no joint credit cards and no joint bank account, this has been an easy thing for me to enforce. She can't charge things on my cards or take withdrawals from my account without my permission. It doesn't mean that she is happy about it, but she has adapted to her new reality. I have adapted to her being angry about not getting whatever she wants when she wants it. I think we have talked about increasing "distress tolerance" in another post. Mine has definitely gotten higher.

What would happen if you just told her that the big cruise wasn't happening because you can't afford it? What if you were honest about the burden of debt that is crushing you so much that you physically feel the pain? Could you just stop spending money on her? Let's assume that she is incapable or unwilling to change her ways and will continue to spend all of the money she earns on herself. Could you budget a life for you and the kids that doesn't include her contributions? It might mean downsizing your house or making lifestyle adjustments, but would it be possible?

My goal is to be financially free of my wife in the next two years. Once I have all of my debts paid off and my doctorate is finished, I can afford to pay all of the bills for the family and will not need her income for my son and myself. At that point, if she wants to waste all of her money on silly things, she can do whatever she wants, but I am done forever with funding a lifestyle that is beyond our means.

I don't know if my wife has done this consciously or subconsciously, but driving me into debt has made me dependent on her income to keep us afloat as I pay off the interest on the debt as well as the principal. It has given her power over me. Getting financial freedom means that she will no longer have that control over me. Whether intentional or subconscious, it has had the same effect. It has trapped me in this relationship.

You only have power over the things that are in your power to change. You can't change her or her approach to finances. However, you have 100% of the power over the money that you earn. How can you use that power to get yourself some breathing room? Forget about what she wants for a moment. What do you NEED to do that YOU have 100% control over to get some financial breathing room?

HurtAndTired

[kells76]

Financial anxiety is big -- good that you may have the support of a therapist in the near future to navigate that.

Curious about a few things, that I think will help me see what's going on a little better.

How soon is your W talking about wanting to see her mom -- next month, 6 months...? Have you responded to her text yet?

we saw a financial counselor last June or so. We agreed to a budget and that my wife would transfer a set amount to the joint account every month.

Sorry if you've posted this elsewhere already -- do each of you also have an individual account? Or is the setup that she has an individual account, you don't, and you two have the joint account?

I've crunched the numbers and the only way it's remotely possible is if she contributes at a bare minimum what she agreed to every month, we don't have other trips this year and need to stay very strict on our budget. In addition, if she earns excess money it really needs to go towards the trip. I have decided I will not go further into debt for this trip.

Is all of that referring to her proposed trip to see her mom? or the proposed anniversary cruise?

...

As long as the proposed trip to see her mom isn't tomorrow, you have a bit of time to be planful and skillful here.

My first thought is not to reply to her with trying to have a budget/finances discussion. Counterintuitive, I know.

She's used to conflict over finances. She might be bracing for a "yeah, but we can't" response, then she gets into the conflict, then it's the same pattern.

I'm thinking that if you reply to her "feeler" about going to see her mom, you start -- just for now -- with only validation... and leave it there (just for now, not forever):

"That makes sense to want to see your mom... it would be special to see her for her 85th"

or

"Yeah, as Mom gets older, spending that time with her would be so valuable"

or

"Your mom has always meant so much to you, of course you're thinking about visiting her"

or whatever you would actually say and could actually mean. And then just let that sit, as you think through your next skillful move.

It may derail some of that instant conflict ramp-up, if she experiences just validation and no "...but you can't, but you're wrong, but you spent too much, but we can't afford it, but I won't go into debt for that" etc. All of which may be true! But () I'd be curious if your first step is just validation of the valid, and then pausing to see how she responds, what she'll do with that.

If she comes back with "Of course I want to see Mom! She's not getting any younger, and you can't put a price on family" or something, you might be able to then try the "wonder" tool:

"I wonder how you'll be able to get tickets?"

"I wonder how the money will work out for that?"

"I wonder where you think we should trim the budget to make that happen?"

Not telling her what to do, just opening a door to see what her thoughts are.

...

I'm guessing that jumping right into fighting about money is totally ineffective -- nothing gets solved.

So it kind of seems like the worst case scenario for the above approach (validating the valid, pausing for a response, then the "wonder" tool) -- like, what if nothing gets solved -- isn't actually worse than the usual approach.

Could be worth trying something new... and taking those steps buys you time to think about your approach -- helps keep you calm and grounded, because you know that all you have to do is validate what's valid, then wonder how she'll solve the issue. You don't have to convince her of anything at this time, and you don't have to solve the entire situation at this time. Just take a couple steps and reassess where things are at.

As odd as this may sound, maybe it could be a relief if you remind yourself that you can always fight about it later if you really want to? I don't know how else to phrase it -- but if you're worried that this approach won't work, you do have another (less skillful) approach and that is certainly an option. I guess the parallel could be to how some persons who are working on diminishing their suicidal impulses will do the following: when they feel suicidal, they tell themselves "well, I can always do that later, but for now I kind of want to finish watching my show. I'll hurt myself afterwards if I still want to". Therapists suggesting that approach aren't telling clients "yes, it's a great idea and skill to hurt yourself" -- they're saying "find ways to tolerate your distress with new approaches, because if you tell yourself you can do your old, comfortable coping mechanism later, then you can get through right now much better". Not sure if that makes sense -- but could give you some courage to try something new?

[Notwendy]

It might help to understand the emotional drive behind the spending. With my BPD mother, the spending on things she emotionally feels she has to have fits the pattern of an addiction. All addictions are ways to escape, and soothe difficult emotions. Discussing this logically doesn't work with her. While there is a logical aspect to money (numbers) there's the emotional aspect too.

Because my BPD mother sees external reasons for her internal emotional discomfort- she'd project, set her sights on something she has to have- vacation, item, attention- as the "solution". In the moment, she's in emotional distress and has to have it. This may bring some temporary relief but like any addiction, the relief is temporary. An addiction becomes problematic when it destroys someone's overall well being, relatioships, or finances- but someone who is addicted doesn't rationalize that.

I have a better understanding of the situation now, as I have not been able to discuss finances rationally with my BPD mother. Another relative offered to try and was unsuccessful too. We don't want her money- we wanted it to be available for her. She has compromised her own financial stablility with it. And even then, she can't seem to stop herself. In the moment, she's in actual emotional distress, like an addict who is suffering from withdrawal and it's difficult to see her in this kind of distress.

The only way I can think of to keep my BPD mother from spending to zero is for her to not have access to some of it. Legally, it's her money and I am not able to do this. As a spouse, you may be able to put your own earnings into an account in your name only. To me, this is the only way I know of what to do. Agreements can be forgotten in the moment of emotional distress.

I don't think you are a "wimp" if you can't say "no". It's very difficult to see my BPD mother in this much distress. Also she will escalate to doing things to get what she wants. Eventually- giving in seems like the only way to stop the situation. However, it's also enabling which perpetuates the situation. Saying "no" also feels like being a jerk too.

I think your participation in Al Anon will help you with boundaries on this situation as well- and also to learn- what you can control and what you can not control. It seems like if your wife earns any money- that is an unreliable situation. What you earn is something you can decide on. This is a difficult situation to manage but seeing where your boundaries can be may dissapate some of the conflict over what is not controllable.

[CC43]

Hi there,

It may come down to seeing that you can’t control your spouse’s purse strings, but you can control yours. It sounds to me that you are triple-stressed, not only about your spouse’s spending, but also about her emotional/bullying response to your attempts to economize, and on top of that, about your precarious financial situation. You likely can’t control the first two stressors, but you can control the third.

I’d say that if you are in tons of debt, you just can’t afford vacations right now, especially not an extravagant one abroad. I bet you know this in your gut. A cruise is a want, not a need. Besides, you won’t be able to enjoy it if you are crippled financially. You could defer it for a few years and start saving up for it. But first, your priority is to focus on needs, and it sounds to me like you need to get your debt under control. If your wife isn’t on the same page in helping to pay off debt, then I think you need to take charge and do it yourself. She might kick and scream, probably because she tends to get her way when she does that, and you reward her with extra money. But if you said, I can’t afford non-essentials now because I’m paying off our debts for the house and our daily life, then you would be right.

Look, it’s normal to have mortgage debt to finance a home. But it’s not wise to go into debt for consumption, and you can really get into trouble if you increase your debt to buy vacations. That’s a sure sign that you just can’t afford them right now.

[Notwendy]

I agree about the cruise being an excessive spenditure in this situation- and it brings up some questions.

One way the financial issues became apparent is that- Dad could say no to us and he did. In principle, I don't disagree with this. It's part of raising kids to distinguish between wants and needs. So I might ask for a new dress, and he'd say no and I'd ask why, and the reply was "we can't afford it" but then he'd spend money on a costly vacation and that didn't make sense.

If the answer was- "no, we expect you to use your allowance for the dress" then that would have made more sense than "we can't afford it" because if you can't afford a dress than surely you can't afford a vacation.

It makes no economic sense that you are in debt and also planning an expensive vacation for your anniversary. Who and what is driving this kind of decision? It is economically unwise- but that is logic. So there must be some emotional need behind this.

With my parents - it was driven my my mother's feelings I think but also had a promise to it. I recall her saying "we need to have this vacation to fix the marriage". So there also was some magical thinking behind this.

You know that this cruise isn't a long term solution for marital issues and it's going to increase your financial struggles. It may help to consider the reasons for this decision.

[ForeverDad]

It may come down to seeing that you can’t control your spouse’s purse strings, but you can control yours. It sounds to me that you are triple-stressed, not only about your spouse’s spending, but also about her emotional/bullying response to your attempts to economize, and on top of that, about your precarious financial situation. You likely can’t control the first two stressors, but you can control the third.

Look, it’s normal to have mortgage debt to finance a home. But it’s not wise to go into debt for consumption, and you can really get into trouble if you increase your debt to buy vacations. That’s a sure sign that you just can’t afford them right now.

Remember the impractical-sounding adage a few decades ago, "Just say No"?  That's a phrase that you should consider using.  As in, "I cannot pay for your 'wants'.  You'll have to pay for them yourself."

I know that doesn't address her failing to pay her portion of the marital expenses (housing and related expenses) but at least she would be forced to pay for her 'wants' or else do without.

The old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.  I know you've tried your best to address the problems from within the framework of the marriage.  But if you've already done the above, short of divorce, then what is left?

Pardon me if this has been a topic in other posts, but an important consideration is your children's overall welfare too.

Your children are grown and evidently fine young women.  They ought to be able to stand up for themselves but their entire lives have been within the framework of a dysfunctional home environment.  From your posts, you've been here a year.  Have the stresses on your DDs been reduced?  Do they also have access to counseling?

[CC43]

Hi again,

It's interesting that posters are bringing up their childhood experiences regarding home finances.  I can say that my parents had me when they were relatively young, and therefore poor--their own parents were not wealthy, either, and they didn't get any financial support when they started out.  So my parents initially lived in a trailer when they got married.  But my dad worked hard, and my mom, who was always a stay-at-home mom, did not spend any money on credit.  Growing up, an oft-repeated phrase was, "How much did that cost me?"  Thus discussions about money were happening all the time, practically daily.  And as a kid, I heard the phrase, "No, we can't afford that right now" all the time.  But you know what?  I thought that was normal.  If I wanted something extra for myself, I had to work for it and save up for it.  But we had all the essentials--housing, clothes, food and insurance.  Over time, it was clear that my parents saved up, and only then did they upgrade their living standards, too.  It used to be that our "vacations" consisted of packing up the car, including days' worth of food, and driving to visit my grandparents, where the kids would sleep in sleeping bags on the floor.  We didn't do Disney trips or trips by plane.  I know that expectations have probably changed today, but what I'm saying is, even if my family didn't have tons of money at first, we had everything we really needed.  My parents had some mortgage debt, but they had what they felt they could manage, and so they weren't super-stressed about it.  And as a kid, I learned that I had to work to save up for the future.  Do you know what?  I probably enjoy a strong sense of control and power over my destiny, and I'm pretty sure I enjoy nice things more than the average person, because I know how hard I worked to buy them!

I think having money is less about having things, and more about feeling secure, as well as having options.  Money is supposed to make you feel secure, not stressed out.  If you're stressed out, it's likely because you overspent on credit.  That's partially the fault of having easy access to credit cards, which are designed to help you spend on things for which you don't have the money yet.  So my advice is, you need to focus your efforts on paying down that credit card debt, and that includes not making any unnecessary purchases on credit until you pay it all off.  I bet that once you have your credit card debt under control, your anxiety level will diminish significantly.  And then you rip those cards up, if you can't resist spending on credit.  You create an emergency fund instead.

I hope you can start to take control of your situation to reduce your stress levels.  You'll feel better, and I bet your kids will learn a lot from your healthy example.  If your kids see a happy and confident dad, that's really important I think.  I seem to remember you have kids, and apologies if I got that wrong.

[campbembpd]

Thank you all, so much to think through here. Don't think I can respond to all the fantastic feedback and comments.

I didn't respond to her text and she hasn't brought it up again. But I imagine will very soon.

I think deep down I know the cruise is not a good idea financially. Even if she magically started contributing monthly and we could save for it, we still have so much debt. Which should be the priority. Of course who wouldn't want to go on a big cruise but if I step back and I didn't have her in the picture there's no way I would be planning it. It's mostly to make her happy, or an attempt to stop her from using us not going against me. It will be used for a lot this year and many years to come assuming we're still together.

Wife wants to see her mom next month so if she went she would be buying tickets pretty much immediately. She could buy it but that would most certainly mean she wouldn't be contributing to our household finances next month. She also has a friend coming into town next month which means she'll be going out to eat more and spending more. This is how her mind works. She has the money so she feels entitled to spend it on what she wants first, before contributing to the family. If I raise anything else then I'm being controlling.

Using the I wonder tool sounds interesting. But I am also laughing because if I said I wonder how the money will work out for that she'll just say she can buy the ticket. Contributing to the household doesn't cross her mind as an obligation or need. So that would require me to say something about needing her contribution as a priority before she plans more trips, expenses, etc.

She's had a personal account and we have a joint account. I recently opened up a personal account for me however. For preparation in case I do need to separate our finances. She really doesn't spend out of the joint though but does have access to it.

It's not only a matter of saying no to her wants. If she won't contribute financially then I do have to really make some changes and force some on her in order for me to make ends meet. i.e. move some of her bills to her checking account (car, some medical and subscriptions). If I did that and didn't pay for her extras and really minimize how much I will spend on dining out, also stop buying alcohol, then I could make it work without her.

But at that stage I feel like it would be very adversarial. Hoping to get into therapy before I have to go that far with her I have to deal with increasing resentment over this as well. While I know she is mentally ill it really is making me angry to see how selfish this all appears. I see her making a substantial amount of money compared to a year ago yet we're more in debt now then ever. If it came to me having to do force those changes so I could make it work on my own while she is essentially pocketing her money while we're drowning in debt then I don't see a path forward for us. I think that's why it's really scary for me to address this.

I know it would shame her so I don't know how to approach it but I have spreadsheets, and figures to show essentially what we each earned and what we contributed to the household for the past year vs what we kept for ourselves. I literally have given over 98% of my income to the household while she's kept $30-40k of her earnings for herself. And she probably wouldn't believe it, anyway, she's denied similar facts. She would have no idea how she blew through all that money. 

Thanks all, grateful for everyone's input!

[Notwendy]

I think deep down I know the cruise is not a good idea financially. Even if she magically started contributing monthly and we could save for it, we still have so much debt. Which should be the priority. Of course who wouldn't want to go on a big cruise but if I step back and I didn't have her in the picture there's no way I would be planning it. It's mostly to make her happy, or an attempt to stop her from using us not going against me. It will be used for a lot this year and many years to come assuming we're still together.

This- right here- is the faulty belief and thinking on your part that is perpetuating your issue. Pointing this out because, yes, your wife's spending is a problem but we can not control someone else, we can only control ourselves.

In most conflicts there are two people involved but since, we can only control our own part in it- we have to look at ourselves.

I was fortunate in 12 steps to have a sponsor turn the mirror on me. It's not easy to have someone do this with us- to point out our own issues but the usual situation is someone is focused on what their partner is doing "to" them and when we see that we are enabling it, it's uncomfortable but it's the only part in this we have control over.

What are the underlying issues in ourselves for such behavior? One is fear, one is pride (wanting to be the good guy). Where are the issues in this statement?

You are taking victim position "I don't want to do this but I have to do it because she's going to hold it against me". The payoff for taking victim position is that the victim is not accountable. "I have no choice, I have to do for her"-She isn't making you do this, you are afraid to not do it.   Victim position is also powerless. This isn't true. You are not a victim here. This is Karpman triangle thinking.

You are trying to do something to control your wife's feelings towards you and her behavior. We can not control anyone else's feelings.

You are doing something you don't want to do and also something that will not be good for you financially- but you are doing it out of your own fears and efforts to control how your wife feels. This is a classic co-dependent action and the result of this is that we often feel resentful when we act from this perspective.

I hope you see this post in the intended perspective- to help you to see where there's possibility to change. I know it's difficult. I hope you will follow up with Al Anon and find a sponsor who can also help you to work on these ideas. It's also because, in my situation, I have seen this kind of dynamic. I think if there's going to be any changes, it is going to begin with you.

[CC43]

Hi,

I'm trying to be helpful here, and I could be totally off base.  I'll share a little insight with you regarding finances between me and my husband.  Though my husband doesn't have BPD, his daughter does, and he exhibits some of the BPD behaviors from time to time, including bullying tactics, stonewalling and avoidance.  Finances are a very tricky topic for him, as is probably the case with many couples.  If I ever mention a budget, he'll say, "I don't want to talk about that!"  If I show him financial numbers, he'll dispute their accuracy, or say, "I don't know where those numbers come from / I don't want to look at that!"  If I handed him a piece of paper with a budget on it, he'd toss it in the garbage.  He might say, "This is too stressful!  I don't want to talk about it!"  All these tactics are a mix of bullying, stonewalling and avoidance.  If I mention a prior financial agreement, like I agreed to pay X and you agreed to pay Y, he'll dispute the facts, or he'll dispute the very notion of us having an agreement in the first place.  So it is very hard to get on the same page about finances with him, at least whenever it means he has to contribute more.  Of course, he's perfectly fine if I pay for most everything in the household.  And he'll often pester me to shell out more.  You see, we both earn income, and we both maintain separate checking accounts, and we split up the household bills.  I'm not saying he doesn't pay for anything (he does), but I am saying that discussions about finances tend to be high-conflict and emotionally charged with him.  With full-blown BPD, that conflict would be super-sized.

I've come to realize that he deliberately doesn't really "see" what household expenses I'm paying for.  I think that he thinks he pays for "everything," because what counts in his mind is the money leaving his own checking account which buys what is important to him, e.g. cable TV, his car payments or trash service.  I tend to pay for the un-fun items, such as taxes, utilities, cleaning, groceries and various maintenance items (plus most of the mortgage when we had one).  I guess I made the mistake of taking over responsibility for the "essentials," because when we married and moved in together, initially he was responsible for some utilities, but he would be late and/or forgetful about paying for them, resulting in having our services cut off and/or generating late fees, and I just couldn't stand living that way.  Anyway, these days I really think that what I pay for is invisible in his mind--a sort of selective amnesia.  Maybe it's out of sight, out of mind.  Or maybe he doesn't want to contemplate what I'm contributing, because deep down he knows I'm paying for more than my fair share, but recognizing that is simply too painful to him.  It might be emasculating, too.  So that may be part of the reason why he doesn't want to discuss it.  In fact, since he doesn't typically pay for certain household expenses, I bet he has little idea of how much they cost, especially now after rampant inflation.  Clearly he wants as much disposable income as possible to spend on things he wants, and he expects me to take care of all the things we need, while perhaps purposely ignoring how much that really costs.  Maybe that's part of the dynamic that's going on in your household.  

So here's a scenario that has played out a few times.  Let's say my husband says, "I want to buy a vacation condo."  I'm thinking, that's not within our budget right now, and I might say something to that effect.  He'll say I'm too negative, too controlling, and never want to do anything he wants.  I'll say, then, "What's stopping you from buying the condo?"  Well, he doesn't have the money, but he wants me to pay for most of it.  That might keep him quiet for a while.  But he might bring it up again.  And I might say, honey, I know a condo sounds great to you, but we already have a lot of bills already, I just don't feel we can splurge right now.  Maybe if you helped me out with some more of the household expenses, the condo idea would be plausible.  Then he'll say, What do you mean, I pay for everything!  And I might say, That's not entirely true honey, you didn't pay for groceries this week.  And he'll say, Yes I did, I do all the shopping!  (He's referring to a grocery run he did two months ago when his mother came to visit.)  If I point out that the last time he paid for groceries was two months ago, he'll deny it.  He'll insist he pays for all the groceries!  Then, and here's the clincher, I'll agree with him.  I'll say, "Great!"  Now this is the key point.  I wait.  I wait for the fridge to run low, which happens quickly enough.  He'll start to complain that there's no food.  And I'll try to say nicely, yes honey, we do go through a lot of food, don't we?  I think it's time for you to run to the grocery again.  He'll grudgingly do it, and come to realize that groceries cost more than he cares to think about (because he complains how expensive they are when he gets home).  If I make him do two consecutive grocery runs, it really drives the point home.  And somehow that will defer the condo discussion for a few months.  The moral of the story is, in order for him to understand that something isn't financially within reach, he has to feel some of the financial pinch, directly, himself.  Whereas if you're alone in feeling the pinch of scrimping and saving, your spouse will continue to feel flush with money, on top of the emotional needs which over-spending is fulfilling.  

[Notwendy]

CC43- this is interesting insight. I was not involved with my BPD mother's finances at all until recently when she got herself into financial trouble.

To her, the only money she spends is the money she writes checks for for her extras. Even money she writes checks for that are for other needs- she doesn't see this as "her spending". Money that comes out of her account for her rent, medicine, etc- she doesn't see it as money for her. All of it goes only to her expenses.

Discussing money is innefective. You are correct that when I was the one worried for her, she didn't seem to care. Only when things got tight did she begin to feel aware of it but I don't think she fully comprehends it. Dad took care of the main payments.

She will say things to me like "I don't spend any money on myself" because she doesn't see money for rent or food or basic needs as money for her expenses.

[HurtAndTired]

It's not only a matter of saying no to her wants. If she won't contribute financially then I do have to really make some changes and force some on her in order for me to make ends meet. i.e. move some of her bills to her checking account (car, some medical and subscriptions). If I did that and didn't pay for her extras and really minimize how much I will spend on dining out, also stop buying alcohol, then I could make it work without her.

You DO have the power to change the dynamics. This is 100% within YOUR power. You do not need permission or help. You can do this unilaterally.

But at that stage I feel like it would be very adversarial. Hoping to get into therapy before I have to go that far with her. I have to deal with increasing resentment over this as well.

This is already in adversarial territory. Is she taking your wants and needs into account or do hers always trump yours? Do yours ever even cross her mind? No amount of counseling will give you the strength to do this. You have to make a decision based on what you NEED to do for your family's well-being and act. I am not saying that you want to intentionally "poke the bear" but you also cannot make decisions based on trying to never "poke the bear" either.

Let's imagine that your wife had a cannister of gasoline and was planning to burn down the house. It would make her happy, she says. Do you just go along with it? This situation calls for adversarial action to save your home! In a way, this is what is happening. Your wife is "burning down" your home, but through hollowing out your finances rather than using fire. The house might not be in danger of being a complete loss yet, however, fires tend to burn slowly at first and then suddenly blaze out of control. It is not an exaggeration to say that losing your home could be an outcome of out of control spending.

The fact that you feel resentful means that you are violating your own boundaries by allowing her to do this. You are betraying your own core values. Let your wife take her vacation to see her mom, but let her pay for it. Make financial rescue plans that do not factor in your wife contributing to the family finances. If she does, great, but don't count on something so unpredictable. Then take the action that you NEED (not WANT, but NEED) to take to save your finances. You've already admitted that you CAN do it! Will your wife like it? No. Would your wife like losing the house or declaring bankruptcy due to out of control spending, though? Most certainly not.

Your wife has a serious mental illness. She is not capable of making responsible decisions about money. You have to be the leader in the family, even when it is going to really piss her off. You have a duty to be the grown-up in the room. She might be angry at you for canceling the cruise and buckling down on the budget, but she'd be even more angry if you have to sell the house or declare bankruptcy. You're going to get blamed no matter what happens. There is no way to avoid it. It is a feature of BPD, not a bug.

When my wife gets like this, it helps to think about her like our S3. If I tell him to get away from the street when he is playing in the yard, he gets mad. I don't care that he is mad. He's a toddler, he is going to throw tantrums. That's what toddlers do. I, however, have a duty to do what I need to do to keep him safe, even when it makes him angry. Sometimes I really do feel like I am the only parent with two toddlers, the only difference being is that one of them can be dangerous when she gets angry and throws tantrums. This does not change my responsibility to do what is right to keep the family safe, even when it is going to be unpopular and get me painted black.

I know this stuff is hard, but ask yourself, has doing what you've been doing gotten your life any better? The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome. The outcome won't change until you change your actions. You've got this. You're stronger than you give yourself credit for. Just think of all the crap that you have survived to get to this point. No wimp could still be standing and fighting like you are. You are tough! Lean into that and believe in yourself. When I first started standing up to my wife, I pretended like I was playing a part in a movie or a play. It helped me to step outside of myself and think that I was playing a character that was a lot tougher than I felt. Do you think that might help you too?

HurtAndTired

[ForeverDad]

I think deep down I know the cruise is not a good idea financially. Even if she magically started contributing monthly and we could save for it, we still have so much debt. Which should be the priority. Of course who wouldn't want to go on a big cruise but if I step back and I didn't have her in the picture there's no way I would be planning it. It's mostly to make her happy, or an attempt to stop her from using us not going against me. It will be used for a lot this year and many years to come assuming we're still together.

Yes, feelings do get involved, in this case her feelings especially.  You would rather appease than be adversarial.  Yet all you have to say is "I/we can't afford it.  I can't contribute to a cruise and the related expenses.  If you pay for it, that would come from your earnings."

Of course, she may want you to put it on your credit card or from your personal accounts.  That's a big No since she's already not paying for the agreed-upon family's expenses and she'd likely get you to cave and pay then she'd still not pay you back for this either.

Related to that, she's already not paying for the agreed-upon family's expenses so there would not be much of an impact there, well, except for her harping about it in the years to come.

... assuming we're still together.

While few would advocate ending a relationship solely on financial issues, consider too the constant stress and repeated surges of discord and that impact upon you (and your daughters).

Before you've reached that point you have determine whether limiting the financial bleeding is enough.  Caving or appeasing is not a solution, it just kicks the can down the road while it get even more messy.