Trying to be strong in boundaries - question myself am I doing the right thing?

[campbembpd]

My uBPDw also struggles with alcohol use issues. When she drinks she can often become aggressive, argumentative and wants to get into ‘heavy’ and circular discussions. It can be like gasoline in the fire which is her BPD.

Last night we had gone for dinner. She was drunk by the time we got home. She poured a huge glass of wine before we left, had a couple martinis and a 9oz wine at dinner. When we got home she finished the bottle of wine she started before we left.

She was in a mood, then the conversation started. I almost have to laugh and shake my head about how ridiculous this is. My wife is going on a vacation next week, a girls trip for four days. My son has a friend staying over that weekend and I decided to take day off work so I could take the boys out and do something on Friday. This is what my wife got angry about. She was upset that I would take one of my vacation days and use it not on her! (That really goes more to her BPD) anyway it spiraled on a discussion where she just got more and more agitated.

I had told her before several times and basically kicked in my boundary. I told her I am not having any arguments or heavy discussions after alcohol has been consumed. She told me to put my stuff in the spare room which I did. She continued to try to talk to me, I would not. After trying to move myself to different rooms and she kept following me, I put myself in the spare room and I locked the door.

She was banging on the door violently demanding I opened it up. Swearing at me and yelling at me. I just kept repeating my boundary.

Our kids are older, 18 and 20, but they heard all this. I have firmed my boundary and she just got more angry. She ended up leaving the house and walking 30 minutes at 11 PM to a bar. I did text her later and told her I wanted her to be safe so I would come and get her to bring her home. But I reiterated I would not be talking to her about anything.she wouldn’t say she wanted me to get her. She wanted me to chase her. And of course, got into the whole thing later of how she doesn’t feel loved by me because I didn’t chase her. She’s played this game a lot too in the past. She leaves and goes for a walk at night or in the rain and expects me to chase after her. I feel like it’s a four-year-old, putting clothes in her backpack saying she’s running away and starting to walk down the street. I told her last night I told her again today that I want her to be safe and it would be devastating if anything happened to her so I really hope she makes better decisions. And she has a phone and an Uber account so there’s no reason she needs to be walking on the street at 11:30 at night…

She came home at 1 in the morning, I was in bed and I kept the door locked and didn’t talk to her.  She woke up this morning. Still pissed off. She was demanding an apology for how I treated her last night. I will not give in and told her I don’t have anything to apologize for.

She’s having unregulated emotions today. But I’m not backing down. In the past that’s exactly what I would’ve done, just to try to make the peace. Apologize for doing something wrong when I in fact, haven’t done anything wrong.

At first, she gives me the keys and tells me I should take our son out for the day. I’m happy to do that because I was already intending on leaving for the day since her mood was not changing. I get my son ready, then she wants to talk to me for a minute in the bedroom. She starts going down the spiral again and I tell her I’m not talking about things, I have to keep repeating that I’m not apologizing. I said I’m going to take our son out and I will see you later tonight. . She starts crying and begs me not to go. I said I am going when I talk to it. Then she tried to guilt me into inviting her to come. And I was proud of myself. I told her I do not want to spend the day with her when she is in this state. I said I’m not gonna go out with her son and her so the day can revolve around her and making her feel better. I told her she needs to take care of our own emotions.

I left for the day and spent it with my son. It was a good day and there was only one moment where she started getting a little too much texting. But I shut that down as well.

I got home and she seems in a much better space, but definitely not out of the woods. She still feels hurt and hurt done by like she was the victim. I’m just sticking to general conversation. She did ask me though again if I had anything else to say to her… Fishing for an apology. But I’ve done that to myself. I’ve spent our entire marriage apologizing for things I should never have apologized for. I’m sure that’s very hard for her. That my mind is clear enough where I’m not giving into her BS..

I felt really proud of sticking to my guns. Of course I got the usual threats of divorce last night, she said she made an appointment with the lawyer next Wednesday. I told her if she wants to divorce me because I’m not willing to talk to her when she’s drunk And I’m letting her face with the consequences of her actions (her deciding to leave the house at 11pm walking down the street) then that’s her choice. .
..


Thanks all

[ForeverDad]

You chose the better solution.  Any impression of undeserved apologies or appeasement would lead nowhere.  You can already recognize the circular responses that you caved to in the past, but no longer.

She's an adult and is responsible for herself.  That's hard to accept when you care for her but she deliberately makes poor choices.  Our refrain here speaks from our past collective experience... You can't save her, only she can choose to help herself.

[Notwendy]

I think you did well to hold to your boundaries. Of course it feels uncomfortable to do so. You aren't used to this. It's something new.

Neither is your wife. We use the relationship "tools" we have. She has a set of tools and you do too. You learned a new one (good). Let's say the two of you only each had a hammer to use on a bolt. You both have been hammering at it. Now, you used a wrench. Your wife still only has a hammer. It used to work for her, now it doesn't. But she doesn't know that yet, so she's going to keep using it until she realizes it's not going to work.

So of course she's going to escalate in the behaviors she knows. Your job is to hold on to your boundaries. Your wife will adjust as she is able to.

Your wife's use of alcohol is serious, but it's up to her to make any changes if she chooses to. It's not the alcohol's fault for her behavior when she's been drinking.  Having wine before dinner, a couple of martinis, finishing up the bottle and then going to a bar at 11 pm for more drinks? This is heavy drinking.  This is alcoholism.

The Blue Book for AA is an interesting read. The language reflect the times it was written- 1939. So in this book, the alcoholics were men and their wives were women. We know now that alcoholism and spouses are of any gender. The book was written by Christian men, so there are religious references but the term "Higher Power" allows this to be adapted to any belief system. I mention this so that you are aware that a CODA program will not go against your religious beliefs.

The writers found that they could help the alcoholics get sober but then, somehow they got worse again. The reason- their wives thought they needed to be supportive and caring but were actually being enablers and this was not helping their husbands stay sober. So there's a chapter in the Blue Book for the wives.

AA can help with alcoholism. I don't think it helps with BPD. Whether or not your wife chooses to admit or deal with her alcoholism is up to her, not you. It's complicated as drinking is driven by emotions and BPD affects emotions.

On the other hand, CODA can help you because it helps with boundaries and changing enabling behaviors. Depending on where you live, there may be choices of groups but if the choices are limited- the ones available can still help. I mention this as they have helped me, and they can also help your children if at some point they are wanting help. (ACA). At 18 and 20- yes they've seen this, I saw it too, even younger than that. Your kids know what is going on.

[Gravity Man]

This is a timely question for me as I am going through the same thing.  My wife scheduled a meeting with us for a marriage counselor.  Gave me one day notice that this was happening.  I agreed to go knowing that as was previously stated somewhere here on this board that this was a fools errand.  The last time we did this, ten years ago, she spent the two visits arguing with the therapist most of the time before refusing to go back.  In the therapy session I laid out clearly and in the most kind way that I could that I would no longer tolerate any verbal abuse:  name-calling, angry talk, guilt-tripping, making fun of, blaming, etc.  If the conversation starts to go this I, I stated that I will not be around for that.  This is something that I had been practicing in the last year, but I put it clearly into words.  That was about a month ago.  She really has not talked to me since.  Yes, on matters of absolute necessity she will speak to me or send a text requesting information.  But otherwise completely ignores me.  So much for the marriage counseling.  We are supposed to go back in the middle of May, we'll see if that happens.  I am now planning on what my life will look like without her.  I am wondering if my boundaries will lead to extinction bursts that will lead her to seek to divorce.

[Gravity Man]

Should have also added to my above post.  My wife also moved into spare bedroom and stopped wearing wedding ring (again).  The folly of marital counseling with untreated BPD.

[campbembpd]

I'm questioning myself today. Not about holding the boundary about not engaging in any non happy discussion when alcohol has been consumed, but...

Of course my wife wasn't happy about much but in particular is sad/feels unsafe that I did not come to get her. She admitted 100% she was drunk and out of her mind and wasn't thinking or acting rationally. She said looking back she was in a very unsafe and potentially dangerous spot. Walking late at night then staying at a bar. She said she was sad I didn't come get her since she was out of it and in a dangerous spot.

It's made me go back and forth on what an appropriate line is. I did text her and tell her I would come get her. She declined. She said she would have come with me if I had shown up.

I'm very conflicted and fine myself second guessing my actions. The last thing I want is for her to get hurt. It kept me awake until she got home unsure if she would get home safe. What crosses a line from being supportive and trying to keep someone safe and a boundary? In my head I'm thinking should I have just shown up in the parking lot, texted her to come out and I'll take her home. If she still declined then I guess leave. What I wouldn't think could/would happen is the bologna where she's there and doesn't come out and expects me to come in and argue or plead with her to come out.
 
Clearly need some outside council on this one.

[Notwendy]

I think these are dilemmas due to them being a "no win" situation- what is going on here is that the pwBPD is not being accountable for their own behavior and is in victim perspective. You didn't "rescue" them, you are the bad guy here- but if you tried to rescue her, as you described, she'd not come out and you'd still be the bad guy.

Boundaries reflect our own values and one of yours is that you are a good person, but in these situations, where the pwBPD is in victim perspective and not being accountable for their own behaviors- and blaming you, being acknowleged for being a good person doesn't seem possible.

One of the challenges of not being enabling is to let the person experience the consequences of their behaviors. This is mentioned in the chapter for the wives in the AA Blue Book. The husbands were drinking at night and hungover in the morning. The wives were calling into work for them, to report that they were "sick" (not hungover). They thought they were protecting their husbands. They were enabling - as their husbands didn't face the consequences of their drinking. It was complicated as in these days, the husbands were often also the only one's working and so the whole family depended on them keeping their job.

But the only chance for the husbands to become motivated to do something about the drinking would have been to let them hit bottom- face the consequences- get fired.

When hitting bottom gets to self harm and dangerous, that choice gets complicated. I wouldn't let a drunk person drive. It's dangerous and against the law. If someone is self harming- threatening self harm, I think calling 911 is the response. In your situation if you believed your wife was in danger at 11 pm at night, out drunk and by herself- if someone is actually going to try to hurt her- the appropriate intervention is to call the police.

If a person is in danger, if they put themselves in danger- this is the domain of professionals- either EMT or police, depending on the situation. Your instinct would be to protect your wife from this consequence, but it would have been the police who were in the best position to actually help if she were in danger and it would be the natural consequence of getting very drunk and wandering out alone at night by oneself- and she's the one who did that.

You are just beginning to think differently about boundaries and changing your responses to her drinking. There's a learning curve. Maybe you would do something different next time but everyone starts somewhere. A clue to your concern is how you wrote the post. "she's saying you should have come to protect her". But that is her defining what you should do. A boundary is a reflection on our own values and decisions. What you "think you should do" is something you decide.

[Notwendy]

What your wife did was dangerous- all of it- drinking that much, going out alone at 11 pm drunk. She's an adult- she did this. However I think this crosses the line to possible seriously harmful consequences.

One possible danger is that if someone did cause harm to her- that would be criminal behavior. If you were to come after her- that could put you in harm too. What if the person was armed, or decided to fight you physically over her?

This is a suggested response- "Honey, I've thought about this. What you did was dangerous and someone could have harmed you. That would be criminal behavior and would need the police. I hope you don't do this again, but if you do, I will call the police to come protect you".

Then if she does it- call the police.

You might be worried about what other's may think, causing embarrassment, upsetting the children but IMHO, it would be much worse if either she or you both were hurt.