does she dislike me or is her guard up? - please help

[once removed]

as anxious as you may feel right now, you also sound a great deal more centered.

the uncertainty is killing me. I struggle not knowing what is going to happen and that causes anxiety. plus I feel fear of losing what I love most and I am sad

all of these, or any one of them alone, are hard.

yet youre able to articulate your feelings. youre able to sit with them without acting/or reacting. you have the presence of mind to be able to say "this is hard, and i need help with it".

all of that is emotional regulation in practice.

and what youre practicing right now, gives you real, lasting power, over when/if it happens in the future.

I have read that some characterises of BPD are, fear of abandonment, feelings of emptiness, difficulty with emotional regulating and reckless behaviours. why is it now that I am experiencing all of these symptoms?

these are things that everyone experiences sometimes, to lesser or greater degrees, especially in times of stress, uncertainty, heartache. people with bpd, or other personality disorders, or impulse disorders, just experience them more often, and to greater extremes. have you experienced them before?

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[stevemcduck]

as anxious as you may feel right now, you also sound a great deal more centered.

all of these, or any one of them alone, are hard.

yet youre able to articulate your feelings. youre able to sit with them without acting/or reacting. you have the presence of mind to be able to say "this is hard, and i need help with it".

all of that is emotional regulation in practice.

and what youre practicing right now, gives you real, lasting power, over when/if it happens in the future.

these are things that everyone experiences sometimes, to lesser or greater degrees, especially in times of stress, uncertainty, heartache. people with bpd, or other personality disorders, or impulse disorders, just experience them more often, and to greater extremes. have you experienced them before?

Thanks guys

Yes I guess through my life I have experienced these emotions but never like this. I have been through quite a few breakups but this one has hit the hardest without doubt.

I am trying my best to focus on what I can control. and am aware I can't control the relationship.

I guess one of my issues in that I'm aware that I struggle to just let things be. I always need to know in myself what my plan is. I think when I asked the question, "should I just try to move on now or would you recommend giving a certain about of time and then try reaching out again?" was so that im my mind I could have clarity, for example if the recommendation is to move on and if I get a relay, great. or maybe try in a month. that would help me get an idea in my head of what im going to do and would help with anxiety as I would then know what I was going to do. im just struggling with that choice in my own mind right now.

does that make sense?

[once removed]

the idea right now is to achieve two things:

1. by not reacting, or following up, you send a very strong signal of calm and cool that looks attractive.

you want to hear from her, understandably, but shes also likely surprised she hasnt heard from you. and not in a way where she thinks youre supposed to contact her, because you put the ball squarely in her court. if shes expecting you to plea for her, or for you to lash out at her, and neither of those things happen, it looks like real change.

2. letting her get back to baseline.

for her to calm down, and not be in reactive mode herself.

it is not "bad" that she hasnt reached out yet. it means shes using the time to get back to baseline, rather than lash out at you, and rather than tell you "its over".

if the recommendation is to move on and if I get a relay, great. or maybe try in a month.

so for now, i would continue to do nothing.

why? because its highly likely she will reach out when shes ready. youre not just going to never hear from her again. theres too much unfinished business.

sure, if a week or more goes by, it might be a good idea at that point to reach out again, depending on how you go about it. you dont just want to let things sit forever.

but right now, as hard as it is to sit with the uncertainty, youre approaching this right, and doing the right thing.

[stevemcduck]

thank you.

well I'm day 3 now so I will give it another week and then if I hear anything or not I will be back for some advice.

thank you so much guys

[stevemcduck]

quick update, ive been blocked on instagram. my friend told me she put up a story saying

life update, ive had my tits done and moved to London, a lot has changed, what should I do next?

[Pook075]

quick update, ive been blocked on instagram. my friend told me she put up a story saying

life update, ive had my tits done and moved to London, a lot has changed, what should I do next?

We don't know where you're at- but I'm guessing not close to London?

Continue focusing on yourself and making each day matter.  You can't control what she does and moving away doesn't mean there won't be opportunity in the future.  It's just not an open door today.

[once removed]

id start by asking friends not to relay any more updates.

thats what i would do, because hearing about her and what shes up to would just drive me nuts. your call, of course.

there isnt anything in particular to be done about her update. its just an update.

you are, however, coming up on a week since you last messaged her. i wouldnt do anything just yet, but its probably time to think about what youd want to say in a follow up. something short and sweet. got anything in mind?

regarding the move to london: is that closer to you? further from you?

[stevemcduck]

yes I am in the north of England,

Well it has been 1 week with no response from my last message. this is the onliest we have not had contact since the first day we met. my instinctual thoughts of what do do next is to wait one more week the send this text.

hi, I hope you are recovering well from your surgery. its taken me a lot longer than you to come to this conclusion but maybe you are right and we should not be together. it is probably the best thing for both of us and I realise that now. its time for me to move on. its a shame something I thought was so great ended in such a tragic way. id hate for us to end things with animosity so I thought id reach out. I understand you are struggling mentally at the moment and something is your mind is forcing you to see me in a negative light. hopefully one day when you are in a better place you can look back and see all I ever wanted was for us to be happy. if you ever need a friend or someone to talk to my line will always be open to you. I hope you you go forward and have everything you ever dreamed of, I wish you nothing but there best.

then I was going to send some pics of the happy times

thank you for all of these great moments, they are memories for me to cherish, I want to look back at our time together and remember the good times and not the times at the end. thank you for everything, il miss you, but I want you to go and be who you want to be and enjoy your life to the fullest. be kind to yourself, and take care

[stevemcduck]

sorry for all the typos

[once removed]

maybe you are right and we should not be together. it is probably the best thing for both of us and I realise that now. its time for me to move on

question: is this what you want? to walk away, to end the relationship? or would you be sending this as a bid to get her back?

[stevemcduck]

In a bid to get her back, it’s worrying me that. Have made it so easy for her to leave me dangling, and I need some dignity to restore attraction

[stevemcduck]

Plus the relationship. Believe has officially ended so I don’t have a lot to lose

[Under The Bridge]

yes I am in the north of England,

Well it has been 1 week with no response from my last message. this is the onliest we have not had contact since the first day we met. my instinctual thoughts of what do do next is to wait one more week the send this text.

hi, I hope you are recovering well from your surgery. its taken me a lot longer than you to come to this conclusion but maybe you are right and we should not be together. it is probably the best thing for both of us and I realise that now. its time for me to move on. its a shame something I thought was so great ended in such a tragic way. id hate for us to end things with animosity so I thought id reach out. I understand you are struggling mentally at the moment and something is your mind is forcing you to see me in a negative light. hopefully one day when you are in a better place you can look back and see all I ever wanted was for us to be happy. if you ever need a friend or someone to talk to my line will always be open to you. I hope you you go forward and have everything you ever dreamed of, I wish you nothing but there best.

then I was going to send some pics of the happy times

thank you for all of these great moments, they are memories for me to cherish, I want to look back at our time together and remember the good times and not the times at the end. thank you for everything, il miss you, but I want you to go and be who you want to be and enjoy your life to the fullest. be kind to yourself, and take care

Just marked the parts which immediately jump out of the message at me. Remember that BPD's aren't good at reverse logic, where they can see you mean the opposite of what you might say; they see things totally in black or white.. and there's a lot of black in that message. Just my thoughts, maybe others also think the same.

Plus including photos might also appear as 'final closure' to her, even though we know you're sending them with good intentions to stir her happy memories.

[stevemcduck]

thanks under the bridge

im unsure about what path to take here as my last approach of leaving the door open seems to have toady failed. im not sure of how to best put strength across and get a response from her.

[once removed]

I need some dignity to restore attraction
...
I don’t have a lot to lose

breakup threats arent dignified; theyre desperation moves, and theyre destructive.

theyre self-destructive, in that its like shooting yourself in the foot (you dont want to break up, so why tell her you do?), and theyre destructive to the relationship, in that they damage safety and trust, the things you want to restore.

Have made it so easy for her to leave me dangling

try not to see this as a competition, or a power play. viewing each other as adversaries is a large part of what has contributed to the damage that led things here.

her not answering you says two things:

1. she was really hurt by removing her from the family chat, and the message she received when she asked for support
2. shes saying your apology for it was "too little, too late".

if there is any jockeying behind that, its to get the point across that shes serious. that she "means it this time". we hope that she changes her mind about that, but its real.

what your message(s) to her attempted to do was short term triage - to stop the bleeding. to put the weapons down. but that doesnt undo, cant undo in a couple of messages, the long term damage that has been done.

thats important to understand; this isnt about magic words to manipulate someone. its to begin to understand your own reactive/destructive tendencies, and shift gears. that isnt a guarantee to reconcile a damaged relationship. it is a path to reclaiming your dignity.

dignity

dignity isnt something you can get from her. it isnt something that she took. dignity comes from within.

dignity comes from the quiet confidence of living your life in a way that is true to your values. it comes from the ability to be vulnerable, but not desperate. it comes from the ability to self-regulate. simply, its being true to yourself, regardless of how someone else might perceive you.

youve been able to do that in your work here. youve been open, honest, and earnest. your dignity isnt gone; your ego is wounded that she didnt answer, and you fear that shes walking away. understandably so.

dont let your fears dictate your actions; let your values do that. thats how you keep your dignity. thats your moral compass that helps you navigate situations like these.

i understand your new, proposed message was a first instinct, a first draft. its still important to learn from.

1. it is more of the same message: "if i dont get my way, ill do something like threaten a break up to ensure that i do"
2. it looks wishy washy. it doesnt sound like someone who is serious about repairing the damage or reconciling the relationship. it doesnt sound like someone who just said they thought through their actions, are sorry for them, and want to reconcile the relationship. it sounds like "oh well, guess this is over then".
3. its transparent. i dont know her, so i cant say for sure that she will see the breakup threat as an attempt to scare her back into the relationship, but she will feel the desperation behind it. it will feel manipulative to her. it will send her a message, loud and clear, that breaking up is the best thing.
4. in your last note you told her you understood your actions were hurtful, and apologized for them. you were trying to tell her "i get it - i messed up". this new message says "im not sure what you think i did, its your own mind forcing you to see me in a negative light". that might provoke a response: a furious one.
5. "and by the way, here are some pictures to show you what youre missing out on, youd better do something quick"

does that make sense?

it isnt clear or honest communication. it isnt living according to your values. it isnt coming from a place of strength inside of you.

leaving the door open seems to have totally failed. im not sure of how to best put strength across and get a response from her.

i want to reiterate: there arent magic words. this isnt about finding a magic phrase that will trick her. it isnt about doing whatever will work to get a response - that does not get strength across.

try this:

try setting aside your pain for a moment. try setting aside the fear of losing her. try setting aside the reactive efforts. channel that inner strength.

what if you knew that the relationship was over for good? what would you really want to say to her? what is the message that you really want to convey? it doesnt have to be "right" or "the best", or "work". just shoot for honesty.

[stevemcduck]

Thanks once again for helping me to keep grounded, I am finding it difficult to come up with and idea that doesn’t show my pain, but I want to demonstrate strength, I feel I am being punished for loving her, I kinda thought the other day to send this

Hi , I know you have said not to contact but I can’t turn off my feelings easially. I just want to let you know I’m still here for you, I know you are battling mentally right now, I’d like to learn more and offer assistance and understanding to see if I can help in even a small way, even after all that has happened you are still the most important thing to me, I love you unconditionally, I want to be there, to hold your hand, but you have to let me in

[stevemcduck]

One thing we need to bear in mind here is that it is not a breakup threat, in her mind we are broken up, she has her social media set to single

[stevemcduck]

I think if I was going to set aside the pain and fear I would say something like this.

this isn't the way I would have preferred things to go between us, I did genuinely hope we could work things out. your silence has made it clear to me that there does not seem to be a way forward for us. I need to respect that and focus on moving on now. I would like to say however, I wish you all the best in life and you find everything you ever wanted, you are an incredible human being and it was a pleasure to have known you, all of by best life memories were with you. you were truly loved to the core, adored and cherished. I will never ever forget the great times we had. It would be sad if we went forward with eternal silence after all we have been though and shared together. I don't want to harbour resentment and I would like to make it clear that if you ever need a friend, my line will always be open

[once removed]

i think both of those are much closer to what you want to say  

she has her social media set to single

okay. then we need to take it seriously, but also not take it at face value, at least if we're hoping she changes her mind.

Hi , I know you have said not to contact but I can’t turn off my feelings easially. I just want to let you know I’m still here for you, I know you are battling mentally right now, I’d like to learn more and offer assistance and understanding to see if I can help in even a small way, even after all that has happened you are still the most important thing to me, I love you unconditionally, I want to be there, to hold your hand, but you have to let me in

(edited and moved around some)]
this isn't the way I would have preferred things to go between us, it would be sad if we went forward with eternal silence after all we have been through. your silence has made it clear to me that there does not seem to be a way forward for us. is something I need to respect. and focus on moving on now. I would like to say however, I wish you all the best in life and you find everything you ever wanted, you are an incredible human being and it was a pleasure to have known you, all of by best life memories were with you. you were truly loved to the core, adored and cherished. I will never ever forget the great times we had.  and shared together. I don't want to harbour resentment and I would like to make it clear that if you ever need a friend, my line will always be open

these are two somewhat different approaches.

1. the first one says "i still care whats going on with you and want to help".
2. the second one says "okay. i get that you dont want to talk to me. ill respect that going forward, but i hope that, and im here if, you change your mind."

neither one of these approaches sacrifices your dignity.

the first one is probably not something you want to sign up for, though. you probably would not be in a good position to be an unbiased friend to her, you want her back, and you have your own resentments. it wouldnt be very kind of her to put you in that position, either.

the second one is just cleaned up a bit (i would still fine tune it a little bit for clarity and natural transitions). setting her status to single, not responding to you - it is possible she may still be acting out of hurt, and drama. you dont want to ignore it completely (act as if youre still together), but you dont want to take it seriously in the sense that you say "okay, fine then", or start saying your goodbyes (that is probably premature at this point). also, in times like these, some of the niceties could piss her off, eg "oh, im an incredible person? then how come you didnt treat me like it!". you want to communicate "im not moved by the drama. im not desperate, either. im saddened that you dont want to talk to me, but strong enough to get the message and heed it, and theres an emotionally safe path back to me if you decide you want to take it."

[stevemcduck]

I see what you are saying. however I think I need to think of a way to ask to open up communication again.

if I send option 2, it is basically exactly the same as the last message I sent, and she chose to ignore me so I don't see how this would make any difference or add any more context to the situation.

do you know what I mean?

[stevemcduck]

also just for context, I noticed she returned the money for the taxi back to my account a few days ago, the one that started all of this problem, thanking her for that could be a possible way to strike up communication

[stevemcduck]

also just to for context to her personality, the incites have got me the best results in the past. they best responses have alway been from long emails, however that may not be appropriate right now

[Pook075]

Just my thoughts, maybe others also think the same.

I thought the same thing- it's too dark and too negative.  Plus, I don't think it's genuine to Steve's actual feelings.

[Pook075]

I see what you are saying. however I think I need to think of a way to ask to open up communication again.

if I send option 2, it is basically exactly the same as the last message I sent, and she chose to ignore me so I don't see how this would make any difference or add any more context to the situation.

do you know what I mean?

Put yourself in her shoes for a moment.  More than anything, BPDs fear rejection and abandonment.  So breaking up was her worst fears come to life.

You're still reaching out, and she's already done the scariest thing possible- walking away.  Going back to that relationship is now the scariest possible thing in her life, because she has all that pain and regret built up.

Please understand this in the frame of mental health though- none of this is your fault.  She was hurt by poor communication stemming from mental illness.

If you send a message, "It's probably for the better, I wish you luck...." then that will only confirm every fear she's ever had. 

If you say, "I want you back and I care about you so much..." it's going to make her question whether or not your efforts are genuine, and it will likely push her away.  Again, we're talking about a primal, deep-seeded fear of being abandoned here. 

It's like you standing up to the boogeyman as a little kid when you heard a noise in the closet or under your bed.  Even though we know now there was no monster lurking, the fear is real and intense.  That's what she feels right now.

If you're going to reach out again, the message has to matter.  I hope that helps.

[once removed]

I think I need to think of a way to ask to open up communication again.

you did that, though. sure, you can ask again, and you can make clear that its what you want to see happen. but you have to be prepared that it may not be the outcome.

if I send option 2, it is basically exactly the same as the last message I sent, and she chose to ignore me so I don't see how this would make any difference or add any more context to the situation.

do you know what I mean?

sure. it is basically the same message you sent, and its in the same spirit, intentionally. and mind you, it wasnt intended to be a final draft, just the essence of your original; it needs tweaking. the reason for essentially doing the same thing again is because for you, in this relationship, its a very different approach. the first version may not have "worked" in the sense that she didnt respond, but ill bet dollars to donuts that it caught her off guard. using the same tone (if not the same words) tells her "wait a minute, that last message wasnt a fluke. what got into him?". it also says, for the respect of her, and for the sake of your own dignity, you wont force her to talk to you.

the problem is, if someone doesnt want to talk to you, you dont have a lot of cards you can play besides "im here when and if you change your mind".

you can keep sending messages (unless or until youre blocked). you can beg or plead (not dignified). you could even say something that will set her off, purely to provoke a response. i wouldnt recommend it.

you can consider throwing a hail mary. go all out, with a big, romantic gesture. this can work, but it has a low success rate, probably 15%. plus, i imagine it wont feel very good if she doesnt respond. we can try to work out what it might look like, if you want. no harm exploring it.

[stevemcduck]

pook, once removed. thank you once again for you insights. ok let me have a try at a message, and I will see what your opinions are once you have a change to digest


I received the £100 and want to thank you for that. I would like to take this opportunity to ask how you are doing with your recovery, ask how (dogs name) is doing and maybe ask if there is a chance we could consider talking again?. this isn't the way I would have preferred things to go between us, it would be sad if we went forward with eternal silence after all we have been through. your silence is something I need to respect if that is what you want.I will never ever forget the great times we had. I would like to make it clear that my line will always be open, I love you

[once removed]

its not a bad note. the wording, as is, is confusing, and makes for two different messages.

message one:

I received the £100 and want to thank you for that. I would like to take this opportunity to ask how you are doing with your recovery, how (dogs name) is doing and maybe ask if there is a chance we could consider talking again?.

this is a simple tack, and a good one. it thanks her, which is just polite, and professional. it cracks the door open and shows interest, gives her the opportunity to respond, and it doesnt stick your neck on the chopping block. its natural, and it makes sense. it also looks like a guy who is above the drama, above the "we arent talking to each other" stuff.

1. you dont need to announce that youd like to take the opportunity to ask; just take the opportunity to ask.
2. youre not maybe asking if theres a chance to consider talking again - youre either asking, or you arent.
3. asking about her recovery and her dog are implicitly asking her to talk again. asking those things, then asking if you can talk again is a little redundant.

so the message is good, but some of the language around it is redundant, soft, and muddles the message. "I received the £100 and want to thank you for that. How are you doing with your recovery? How is (dog's name)?" is the more straight forward and confident version of the message youre trying to send. you could add a simple closing line, something casual but touching, that says you were thinking about her, but it isnt necessary, and if not done right, could step on the rest of the message. a cute memory of the dog, or something like that, could work.

message two:

this isn't the way I would have preferred things to go between us, it would be sad if we went forward with eternal silence after all we have been through. your silence is something I need to respect if that is what you want.I will never ever forget the great times we had. I would like to make it clear that my line will always be open, I love you

theres nothing wrong with these words alone. tacking them as they are, to the above message, answers your own question. rather than "can we talk", it would say "can we talk? i guess not." it gets ahead of itself.

as for choosing between the two, the first one is likely far closer to what youre trying to do: open those lines of communication in a cool, calm, confident, upbeat way. its drama free, its warm, it risks nothing, and she risks looking like a jerk if she ignores it.

[stevemcduck]

yes what you say makes total sense, just keep it cool and casual.

thank you so much. its been 9 days since contact now. im wondering to leave it until maybe the 14 day mark, what would be your recommendation?

[EyesUp]

@Steve,

I've been following along as you've received good advice from others.

In all the back and forth, it's not clear if you're prepared to respect and accept her choice. It seems like you want to try to change her mind, or simply want further interaction - in any form it might take.

I'll simply say:
Closure is something you can give yourself.
Dignity is something you must give yourself.

If she has BPD, and up/down, right/wrong, etc., is difficult to untangle, the only thing any of us can do is to look inward. i.e., shift the focus away from her and toward yourself.

Does that make sense?

If you send the note and she doesn't respond, what's next?
If you send the note and she offers some version of what you've already heard, what's next?
If you send the note and she opens up a bit, answers the questions, but offers no path forward, what's next?
If you send the note and she offers some indication that she'd like to talk, what's next?

My point is: You have the power to anticipate what's next because you know her - and you know yourself - better than anyone else.

In regard to your last question - waiting for 14 days - it's an arbitrary number. Would it be possible to make a deal with yourself to simply wait indefinitely - until she makes the next move? She might reach out for money, or emotional support, or maybe something else. What then?

Hang in there.

[once removed]

im wondering to leave it until maybe the 14 day mark

what would be the reason behind waiting?