Value to resolving finances ahead of custody?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I am wondering how many people working through divorce with pwBPD have resolved financial stuff ahead of custody?
My situation: married 17 years to uBPDw SAHM. In collaborative divorce. Still under same roof. Getting no traction toward any agreements re. custody, which I want before moving out.

Reason I ask: my wife listed her priority of items in divorce as 1) property division, 2) maintenance, 3) child support and 4) custody. Exact opposite of my priorities and lawyers' sequence of events in divorce. I am wondering if she will move on other areas if she has some security from sale of our house. We are common property state. I am willing to give her more than 50% of equity in sale if I can get parent plan with 50% custody of S5 and S11. Thinking that best course of action is to sell house now to push us into two residences which will require custody agreement. Downside is stress of sale and moving added to stress of divorce is potent cocktail for pwBPD.

Thoughts?

[takingandsending]

I am wondering how many people working through divorce with pwBPD have resolved financial stuff ahead of custody?
My situation: married 17 years to uBPDw SAHM. In collaborative divorce. Still under same roof. Getting no traction toward any agreements re. custody, which I want before moving out.

Reason I ask: my wife listed her priority of items in divorce as 1) property division, 2) maintenance, 3) child support and 4) custody. Exact opposite of my priorities and lawyers' sequence of events in divorce. I am wondering if she will move on other areas if she has some security from sale of our house. We are common property state. I am willing to give her more than 50% of equity in sale if I can get parent plan with 50% custody of S5 and S11. Thinking that best course of action is to sell house now to push us into two residences which will require custody agreement. Downside is stress of sale and moving added to stress of divorce is potent cocktail for pwBPD.

Thoughts?

[ForeverDad]

I am willing to give her more than 50% of equity in sale if I can get parent plan with 50% custody of S5 and S11.

Been there, done that, well, the 50/50 part.  Even though I held out for Residential Parent - so she couldn't move away and force schol changes and me to follow - she was just as entitled as during the divorce. It wasn't until a few years later when I got majority time during the school year that her facade cracked.

Right now you may think getting that is a win but a couple years from now you may come to regret it not trying for more than 50%.  I can't say for sure, I'm just saying.

Beware of asking for only 50%.  Why?  Imagine a mother insisting on having 99% parenting and a father asking for 50%. Would the judge be inclined to split the difference and assign the father the historical father's role of alternate weekends?

Understand well that you asking for a logical percentage is going up against a person who is more than will to use her emotionalism to sway the court.  Her claiming "oh poor me!" will get more results than you making that same claim.

Another reason to ask for more is so the judge knows you are more than willing to step forward to parent.  Judges often assume the men are willing to hand over child support and recede into the background.  Don't let her cast you into that stereotype.

I'm not saying you have a judge who will split requests down the middle.  But it would be wise to try to get an edge in parenting.  You can keep that ace up your sleeve, that you might agree to letting her have additional money if you got more time.  Early in negotiations might not be the best time for it.  She'd grab it and them proceed to demand more anyway.

A saying here is that the odds are against you that any deal reached in mediation will last until it gets filed and "so ordered" in court.  recanting is common and then you're back to Square One.  Is the mediation you're attempting immediately binding on both parties, she can't wriggle out?

[livednlearned]

Hi talkingandsending,

I see what you are saying strategically. Why not do things simultaneously? In other words, put her #1 item on the table, then make #4 your second priority. Work them both together so that #4 is a condition of making #1 the first priority.

For everything you give her, make sure you get two things in return (because at least one will probably get chewed up  )

And don't give her more equity in the home! Always negotiate high (you probably know this) so that when you relent, she feels she wins something. That's different than giving her the win right out the gate. You might go in and say 50/50 equity plus sharing the closing costs. Hold out on the closing costs -- that will become her focus. Her L is likely to say 50% is reasonable, and so are the closing costs. Then, in the final hour, offer to pay full closing costs.

Depending on what she is like, you could also say, "Wife deals with realtor and staging the house and getting things ready for sale." If she thinks you are trying to put all the work on her shoulders, she may actually insist that you do everything, which is actually better for the two of you.

And when you do cut a deal to sell the house, close all the loopholes you can so that everything has a contingency. For example, if you want her to pick the realtor, then you come up with three and she gets to pick one. If the first one doesn't work out, you pick the second. If she fires the second, then you get to make all decisions about the realtor, etc. Or, another scenario -- if someone makes an offer within 5 percent of the asking price, you are the final decision-maker (this is reasonable if you are the one who is paying the mortgage and are the only one capable of covering it).

Think of all the possible decision points and plan ahead with contingencies so when you hit inevitable roadblocks, she can't stonewall and obstruct without violating her own documented agreement to those terms.

I ended up giving my ex the house and I regret it because it changed nothing. If anything, it emboldened him to keep pushing and pushing and pushing. It probably would've been worth it to assert my rights to the house just to use the proceeds to pay for the legal expenses. Instead, almost everything he paid in child support and alimony went to legal costs.

For a person with a PD, the need for control is insatiable and the desire to stay negatively engaged can feel bottomless.

[takingandsending]

Lnl,
That's the idea - to work her priority at same time as mine. So excellent advice on the full closing cost in lieu of greater percentage of equity. I will keep that bargaining chip back.

And no, despite experience, I am usually honest and fair to start which is why I end up doing more and getting less in the RS. So, I could offer at end to pay closing cost in full but trade for keeping higher percentage of 401k. thoughts?

F-dad, yes, in truth, I do want 100% custody, but when your L, our MC now my T say and several friends' divorces you see end up 50/50 the practical part of my brain says odds are bad and cost is high.  Re.  boundaries, I find very little of this cloak and dagger that reflects my core values aside from protecting and doing what is fair. But the playing field is not level, so I have to strategize and not be forthright. I get it, but I don't like it.

[ForeverDad]

I ended up giving my ex the house and I regret it because it changed nothing. If anything, it emboldened him to keep pushing and pushing and pushing... .

For a person with a PD, the need for control is insatiable and the desire to stay negatively engaged can feel bottomless.

This reminds me of my first attempt to get both custody and majority time.  The GAL (Guardian ad Litem) agreed for me to assume full custody but refused to change the equal parenting time.  Alimony had just ended and she mistakenly assumed Ex would appreciate and behave better if she was allowed to have child support.  I expressed my doubts but we had to settle for the GAL's wishes because we knew that court would side with the GAL.  You guessed it, Ex's behavior didn't improve.  A year later I went back to court to get the previously denied majority time.

The moral of the story is that even the best of efforts can be weakened by others' well-intentioned decisions.  But at least you need to be as informed as possible so that you can avoid self-sabotaging misconceptions.

Think of negotiations as an art.  No magician starts his act without cards, birds and flowers up his sleeves.  Ask for more than you would otherwise seek so that you later have some things to give up so the other can feel a winner.  If you walk in offering everything except what you want to walk out with, then what can you use to make deals with?  It's a balancing act, boundaries and negotiations.

[livednlearned]

I am usually honest and fair to start which is why I end up doing more and getting less in the RS.

It's divorces like ours that teach us how to negotiate   

I was the same as you. Cards on the table. Open book. No guile.

I had to practically be rescued by my lawyer. If it wasn't for my son, I would've walked away from everything, but my L kept saying, "This isn't just about you, it's about your son, his future, his college education, his inheritance"

Well played, L, well played!

So, I could offer at end to pay closing cost in full but trade for keeping higher percentage of 401k. thoughts?

Or wait, what about you offer to pay for the 401K lawyer -- usually there is another lawyer who handles that. I know, right? So many lawyers.

Anyway, the point is to concede on things that you feel are worth the cost of doing (high conflict) business. I wouldn't start gifting away equity or 401K more than what the law dictates is fair. Give her small things that let her feel like she's getting a good deal, that actually help you and don't hurt you financially in the long run.

She's trying to find your limit. You can make it be anything you want. You're a nice guy so you're probably prone to be more reasonable than the situation dictates, and she feels that so she's pushing for more until she hits the wall. The key is to get clear in your mind what the limit is, and then, after she exhausts her boundary-busting, and things feel like they are stalled out, wait a beat and then offer her something (relatively) small.

If she is expected to pay the closing costs, you know she will stonewall anyway. So being in control of those kinds of costs can potentially help move things along for you.

Or, if you two agreed to split closing costs, take her half out of the house equity so you aren't waiting on her to pay up.

Because she won't. 
 

[SamwizeGamgee]

I read up on a forum for men's divorces, but, I'm still at the front end of my decision to go for divorce or find another way, so take it for what it's worth.  But, I will say that custody is not the most important thing.  It's the only thing.  Some veterans advise begin and end negotiations for custody at 50/50 with joint legal.
To the court, the mess of divorce is a business deal at heart.  Split assets, dissolve the company, move forward.  If you even talk about something other than custody, you lose ground later.  As a dad, you're still lucky to get 50/50. Picture if you sort out all the equity, assets, retirement, and everything else, then the wife pulls the natural "kids go with mom" approach in court.  Where's your leverage now?  You sold it off.
Never take legal advice from your wife.
"Custody of the kids is the hill you die on" - I'm quoting people far more experienced than me.

[takingandsending]

Hey all. Thanks for the responses. I have been fighting off a cold the past few days, so I will try to respond now.

Sometimes, it feels a bit like the Price Is Right being on this board: $250!, $250!, $100!, custody first!, full custody!, close loopholes!, boundaries!, boundaries! Oh well, you get the idea. I actually really appreciate the advice, and I hate that I am so much in need of it. I am used to knowing stuff, being an expert in my field, being a good communicator and negotiator. And none of that helps in this phase of my life.

So, to summarize: no gifting until agreement in place to whatever is legally determined in my state, i.e. communal property, everything 50/50. Hold back small concessions for when my wife gets stuck executing her part of bargain, close loopholes by written agreement that fees and costs to be taken directly from division of property (again 50/50)

Samwize, I am in a collaborative divorce, so no one is looking sideways at me for not pushing custody discussions first, because that is actually all I have done to this point. To me, custody makes most of the other pieces of the puzzle pretty simple to figure out.

But as I had thought, my wife actually spoke with me today (she probably figured it was safe because I am sick and have laryngitis - there's a metaphor here somewhere, I am sure of it), and confirmed that she is frozen and overwhelmed with fear for her security. Basically, her priorities in the divorce are:
1. division of property = security
2. maintenance = security
3. child support = security
4. custody = ?

She suggested I get a HELOC on our house to get a house of my own, and then we can work out the custody arrangement more easily. Don't worry. I cannot envision a way that can work. The only thing that makes sense is to sell house and split, or I offer three appraisers to choose from, get appraisal, get loan, pay out her equity and keep house. She can't refinance it in her name because she has no income to speak of. We both agreed that speaking to the financial specialist on the collaborative team would have more impact than continuing to see the mediator. She needs to see that many of her "options" are not really options, which will have to come from anybody other than me.

And it looks like nesting has died on the vine. She said we would be wasting money on three households which could go to me finding a separate household. I actually agree on this point! Amazing. So, the other thought I have for my own health (to get out of living another moment together) is just getting a 2 bedroom apartment, splitting my paycheck with her, the house and bills are hers to manage and my expenses are mine to manage until we divide out the property. Any debts accrued in this arrangement come out of our own half of the house equity and are our own responsibility. She has to sign agreement that she will maintain the mortgage and not let it go into foreclosure. I guess if she wants to rent the spare bedroom, have at it. Likewise, from this point forward, she pays her own legal fees, we split all the kids' school and extra curricular since we each have half the income coming in. She would also have to provide her quarterly state income declarations so that she doesn't just think her money stays with her. The negative to this arrangement is that I (and the kids during my custody) will likely end up in a crummy place for the time being, but at least I will not have to listen to her blame, entitlement, victim talk anymore. In the end, this is not the financial split that I envision, i.e. I am not up for giving up half of my earnings nor my half of the house equity. I will ask L if I am risking precedent in this approach. That would be ridiculous, but the laws of the land tend to be ridiculous and I know almost nothing other than my wife believes she is entitled to a lot.

[livednlearned]

Instead of giving her money for the bills and mortgage, could you create a joint account in which you move the money on x date, and she pays the bills by xyz date out of that account? That way you can see where the money is going, and when, and you have documented proof one way or the other.

With all concessions, no matter what they may be (this agreement might work for you, it's hard to know), but especially when non-compliance could really mess things up for you (e.g. a mortgage payment not paid, or bills not paid), make sure you have some oversight, or something to ensure that she actually does what she says she will do, and if not, you have a way to close things out without it ruining your financial credit.

Maybe treat her suggestions like good ones and then ensure you have safeguards so you aren't left exposed. I don't know if signing agreements protects you... .I know my ex said he would sign this or that when it came to a home equity loan on our house and my real estate L (yes, another L) nearly did a back flip because that signed agreement (that ex would pay it off) meant nothing when it came to real estate law. So be sure to ask a thousand questions about the weight of that agreement. It might amount to a formality that could get shredded in court if it came to that.

A couple other questions: Do you feel comfortable with her renting out the spare bedroom while your kids live there? Do you think she will willingly show you her quarterly income declaration? What if she doesn't? These might all be things that work out great for you -- I'm just saying it's good to think through the realistic outcome once you parcel out your leverage  

On the crappy apartment -- I did that, too. It turned into a very liberating experience! S15 (9 at the time) and I had no furniture except mattresses and a futon couch, and somehow that crappy little apartment was a blessing for us. It taught me how true it is that kids just want us, they want us to be present and real and maybe even a little vulnerable, while showing them how to work our way through a crisis.

[ForeverDad]

Letting her remain in the house and pay the bills is a recipe for disaster.  Where is the Leverage for compliance?  Don't expect court to enforce its own orders.  Others here let the stbEx remain until the house sold... .  Either bills didn't get paid or the ex stripped the house or the ex delayed letting the house be prepped for showings or sale... .you get the idea.  Ah, but you can always take the order back to court, right?  Well, the ex can delay by asking for continuances, or say they don't have the money, time, lenders, etc.  One mother here reported it took her over two years to get the Ex out of the house for it to be refinanced or sold as the divorce decree required.

And lastly, you don't want to have a disordered ex living in a property you own or have a mortgage on.  Too many ways that can go south.  We've even had members who signed over quit claim deeds anticipating compliance but didn't hold them in escrow until the house sold/refinanced.  They got stuck no longer owning a home but having liability for the pre-existing mortgage.  Her ex kept going back to court asking for more time and getting it.

Whatever deals you work out, make sure that a significant chunk is withheld (or held safe in escrow) until you have the last bit of compliance.  Do not expect reciprocity or an appreciative ex.