If you don't change, things will stay the same

[byfaith]

When I first found these boards almost 4 years ago I read this statement "if you don't change, things will stay the same"


I have changed. It took a while. Sometimes change hurts a little and then it can hurt a lot.

Gradually, I have stood up for myself with my uBPD wife in a non confrontational way. Well, not always non confrontational.

The more I enforced boundaries the more she pulled away from me. Last night she told me she is filing for a divorce. I made a decision two months ago never to mention divorce or splitting up etc. I decided I would never use it as a tool to try to make her change.

My situation involves my wife and her son who is paranoid schizophrenic. He is 32 years old, lives with us and they both are very enmeshed therefore dooming our marriage for many, many reasons. That is the hurdle that we needed to get past before we could move to other problems and deal with them.

Rejection hurts. The marriage relationship is being discarded because I wouldn't come to "their side" that is not how she put it but that's what it is in a nutshell.

I am pretty sure she is going through with it. I know all the things I could do and say to keep her from it, but then I would be violating my own values and the things that I need in a marriage.

I am staying on this board until she actually files. I am sad yet relieved. I still love her but I am so tired.
 

[Wrongturn1]

Way to go, byfaith!  Kudos to you for maintaining your values and not caving to her dysfunction.  Regardless of how things proceed from here, this may be the best thing that has ever happened to you.  Please keep us posted on how things are going.

[formflier]

   


What leads you to believe this is a "real" announcement and not a manipulation?

Did you ever actually get in front of a MC again?

Dude... .hang in there.  What will you do TODAY... .to be extra kind to yourself?

I'll be praying for you.


FF

[byfaith]

What leads you to believe this is a "real" announcement and not a manipulation?

I already knew that she had an attorney draw up papers they were just being held in waiting. She has been holding a check from her mom to give to attorney in case she had to go through with it. Long story on the check from her mom (her mom is not for the divorce) my wife + her mom = dysfunction go figure!

Did you ever actually get in front of a MC again?

Yes we went once to MC and then to the pastor and his wife. When it comes to her son she is a mess. To make this short, if I was willing to live in the dysfunction of her and her son and choose to defer to that situation in almost every aspect of the marriage then I would tell her, no don't file we can do this.

Dude... .hang in there.  What will you do TODAY... .to be extra kind to yourself? I think I will go get a big ol' cheeseburger for lunch!

I'll be praying for you.
Thank You!

I may elaborate on the MC and pastor sessions. If I need to. I will see what she does today.

[formflier]

Do you have a TGI Friday's close to you?  They have a new burger... ."Buffalo Burger" or something like that.  maybe Blazin  Burger.

Anyway... it comes with two hot wings stuck to the top of the bun.  It's a mess of a burger to eat... .but... .heaven... .

 

FF

[byfaith]

Yes we do, I will have to check that out! 

[formflier]

Reflecting back:

So... she basically said... .I'll make changes in other places, but when it comes to my son... .Byfaith is along for the ride.  Take it or leave it.

Correct?

Did she lay out any other places she... .supposedly... .was willing to make changes?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I am pretty sure she is going through with it. I know all the things I could do and say to keep her from it, but then I would be violating my own values and the things that I need in a marriage.

I've got two thoughts for you, and strangely enough, I don't think they contradict each other.

1. In response, I'd tell her "I don't want to get a divorce, but I won't stop you if that is what you want." (At least assuming you still would choose to stay married to her despite the problems. If you are more relieved than sad, don't bother!)

2. Find and consult with a lawyer of your own. If I recall correctly, the two of you have no dependent children in common, so there won't be any custody battle, at least, and that can be a huge thing!

Still, there is the possibility of spousal support, and the question of how joint assets are to be divided, and which assets are joint. (Does either of you have a pension or IRA?)

You and she may or may not agree on what is fair. But either way, you should know what your legal rights and responsibilities are first. As they say, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Don't get involved in a legal dispute without legal representation!

Consider posting a summary of the legal/financial issues on the legal board here too.

[Notwendy]

I must be confused because I thought that you posted at one point that you were leaving her.

I agree with you not to threaten divorce- unless you absolutely intend to go through with it. Since you do not want to do this, then I agree that mentioning it isn't helpful to your situation.

However, keep in mind that feelings are in the moment. One moment, your wife may really feel she wants a divorce, but the next minute fear abandonment and not want it. Such is the nature of the push pull.

I thought at one point you were considering a lawyer. I know you didn't want to leave her without a roof over her head, especially with a son with disabilities and were looking for a financially compassionate way to do this.

IMHO, I think it would help for you to be certain about your plan of action. It seems that you don't want a divorce. I agree with GK to consult a lawyer so that you have a clear idea of what you would do in the event of one. However, reacting to her emotions in the moment may not serve you well. She may want one today, not tomorrow, but the next day. I would have the plan of action in place should she do that, but not react emotionally to what may be in the moment threats to get you to comply with her.

I also think it would help for you to be clear about what you want. In the event that you choose to divorce, then be sure of how you will do it and carry through no matter what her response to it because her reactions will likely be back and forth over this too. ( being nice one moment, not the next).

The back and forth D or not to D probably isn't good for either of you.

Choosing to stay also means accepting the circumstances. She loves her son. That makes sense- mothers love their kids ( even if they are difficult). She would fear for him being left on his own. They are a package deal. While you feel he is interfering with the marriage and want her to be less enmeshed, that relationship is strong, maybe stronger than any other bond she has. If you choose to stay married, radical acceptance of this may reduce your conflicts over this.

[byfaith]

Choosing to stay also means accepting the circumstances. She loves her son. That makes sense- mothers love their kids ( even if they are difficult). She would fear for him being left on his own. They are a package deal. While you feel he is interfering with the marriage and want her to be less enmeshed, that relationship is strong, maybe stronger than any other bond she has. If you choose to stay married, radical acceptance of this may reduce your conflicts over this.

I don't feel he is interferring ,he is interfering or let me say she is letting him interfere. I know if these circumstances do not get an alteration and a balance I will not stay. That is a major area that will get dealt with in MC. I cannot share a bedroom with my wife because of what he is allowed to do. I can't hug or kiss my wife around him because she jerks away from me because she doesn't want him to think (whatever)

The package needs to be rebundled.

I must be confused because I thought that you posted at one point that you were leaving her.

she had come to me and said she wanted a divorce and she was going to move out

[Notwendy]

It needs to be rebundled, but she needs to also wish to make it happen and enforce that. This is a long standing relationship- longer than yours and she must be getting something out of this situation or she would be frustrated over it like you are.

There is a triangle here- you, son, wife. She's his rescuer/enabler.  I hope she too decides it is time for a change. What I am wondering is that, if she wanted romantic time with you too, why is she continuing to not have boundaries with him?

I don't have an answer, and I hope your MC can work this out.

[Grey Kitty]

she had come to me and said she wanted a divorce and she was going to move out

Some pwBPD will say something like that in the heat of the moment but not keep the feeling long enough to follow through with it.

Some pwBPD will say something like that as a threat, saying it to get you to back down. (And if you don't capitulate, may follow through or may not; depends on the person)

Some pwBPD will run, never to contact you again.

This is your wife--you know her. Do you think she will follow through?

And if she doesn't actually leave, or if she goes back and forth about leaving for the next 9 months, I think it is a safe bet that she will let her r/s with her son interfere with what you believe a marriage should look like. You will get more of the same.

How long are you willing to wait in that kind of marriage if she doesn't leave?

[formflier]

  That makes sense- mothers love their kids ( even if they are difficult). 

Was this addressed when you talked to the Pastor and his wife?

My take:  The Bible is quite clear and consistent (vice one verse taken out of context) that in the vast array of our human relationships, there is ONE... .that is head and shoulders above and distinct from ALL others.

The marriage relationship.

Full context.

Most important r/s.  With God
2nd  Spouse
3rd  Children
4th  Church family
5th  In laws and other family
6th  All others.

The further down the list you get... .the murkier the scriptural "proof" is.  But with the top 4... .I feel on solid ground.

The "illustration point" that is used in Christian marriage counseling is a rhetorical question.

"How many marriages have been saved, by focusing more on kids and being a great mom or Dad, and then using whatever is left over for the spouse?"

versus

"How many children have been raised up healthy and well adjusted by focusing first on your spouse and getting that r/s "right", then using the remaining time to parent children"

Anyway... .I'll wait for your response before going further.

FF

[Notwendy]

The Bible and secular sources are clear on the importance of the marital bond. This also includes sexuality in the context of marriage. I think ByFaith is in accordance with this.

But the mother - son relationship is up to the wife. If she wants this too- do her actions reflect that ?

[formflier]

But the mother - son relationship is up to the wife. If she wants this too- do her actions reflect that ?

Totally agree that this decision is up to her and will respect any decision she makes... .

However, the vibe I have been getting is that she "claims" to be very "Christian", yet doesn't go to church (much), yet values the Pastors advice.  Basically a life of contradictions. 

I would hope that a Pastor would have pointed out major inconsistencies in her claims of belief and her decisions based on belief. 

I am NOT a believer in "nitpicking" on small details. 

Who the leader is of a Christian family and who the primary relationship is and which relationships are secondary... to me... .is NOT nitpicking.

Also... .IMO... if Mrs Byfaith would follow her beliefs, I think the home would be much more stable for the son, the wife and the hubby. 

 

Just my opinion...

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't think there is any disagreement about the Biblical statements for marriage. Even secular marriage books state the same thing- that it isn't good for the kids to have the parent-child bond be closer/stronger than the bond between the parents. It creates situations like parentification and emotional incest.

The whole family would likely be better off if Ms. ByFaith practiced these ideas.

The reality is that, Mrs. ByFaith has a mental illness and so does her son. Both of them are predisposed to dysfunctional relationship and enmeshment. She also has "normal" emotions as well. So when I said "mothers love their kids" it was to say that she does too, but she may not know how to love him in an emotional healthy way. I meant that this relationship, her love for him, comes from a place of goodness in her. She isn't doing what she does in order to hurt her husband. But when there are poor boundaries ( and there clearly are as described in previous posts) she may not know how to act on her love for him and wish to protect him in the way a parent who does not have mental illness does. In addition, a grown man who doesn't have a mental illness would not tolerate this kind of relationship with his mother, but the son has no choice- he is dependent on her and doesn't have the option of other relationships.

I think the Bible is a great source of what to do, if someone is willing and desires to carry this out. Ms. ByFaith may indeed be willing, but I don't know if she is emotionally able, to follow the ideas in the Bible without some way of addressing the mental illness involved in both her and her son. This relationship is over 30 years old- she has love, fears, and other concerns for him. Can this be done? I don't know, but if it can be, I think there are complex feelings and behaviors involved. A BC can say " this is what you do as a Christian- now do it" but mental illness is another factor. She feels whats he feels. The son also behaves as he is.

[formflier]

The reality is that, Mrs. ByFaith has a mental illness and so does her son. Both of them are predisposed to dysfunctional relationship and enmeshment. 

This is an incredibly hard truth to look at...

FF

[byfaith]

I poked my head in here real quick when I had a minute at work. Your feedback is extremely accurate.

I will try to get on here at some point today and give a response

but yes it is an incredibly hard truth to look at, the question for me, what am I willing to accept and live with

BF

[formflier]

Perhaps a more basic question is one of boundaries... .versus no boundaries.

We just happen to have a son that is at the center of this discussion.

Some people decide to not have boundaries.  Their choice.

In reality... .this is a very fundamental choice... .but a valid one for either party to make. 

Hard to cross that gap between boundaries and no boundaries...

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Just offering sympathy on the "bigger picture" issues.  I'm sorry you find yourself here.  Although, you've probably thought you'd be facing a divorce a time or two in the past.  It's probably a little sad and scary looking a real divorce in the eyes.
Take care of you first.  I've heard that lots before, and I know it can be hard to do sometimes.
I'm curious, do you feel relief as well?

[byfaith]

I do not think I communicated this since my initial post but she pulled filing for the divorce "off the table" It's on the stove ready to be served.

We had a meeting with our pastor and his wife last Saturday. My wife kept pushing for it and I did not want to, I knew the potential for a disaster.

It blew up.

They gave advice on the Biblical set up for a marriage... .
God
Marriage
etc
basically as outlined above by FF and discussed by Notwendy.

Where it all goes to pieces whether at pastors office, MC, etc is when the discussion of the effect of how the son is handled in relation to the marriage.

I am putting this whole post from Notwendy here because it is perfect:
I don't think there is any disagreement about the Biblical statements for marriage. Even secular marriage books state the same thing- that it isn't good for the kids to have the parent-child bond be closer/stronger than the bond between the parents. It creates situations like parentification and emotional incest.

The whole family would likely be better off if Ms. ByFaith practiced these ideas.

The reality is that, Mrs. ByFaith has a mental illness and so does her son. Both of them are predisposed to dysfunctional relationship and enmeshment. She also has "normal" emotions as well. So when I said "mothers love their kids" it was to say that she does too, but she may not know how to love him in an emotional healthy way. I meant that this relationship, her love for him, comes from a place of goodness in her. She isn't doing what she does in order to hurt her husband. But when there are poor boundaries ( and there clearly are as described in previous posts) she may not know how to act on her love for him and wish to protect him in the way a parent who does not have mental illness does. In addition, a grown man who doesn't have a mental illness would not tolerate this kind of relationship with his mother, but the son has no choice- he is dependent on her and doesn't have the option of other relationships.

I think the Bible is a great source of what to do, if someone is willing and desires to carry this out. Ms. ByFaith may indeed be willing, but I don't know if she is emotionally able, to follow the ideas in the Bible without some way of addressing the mental illness involved in both her and her son. This relationship is over 30 years old- she has love, fears, and other concerns for him. Can this be done? I don't know, but if it can be, I think there are complex feelings and behaviors involved. A BC can say " this is what you do as a Christian- now do it" but mental illness is another factor. She feels what she feels. The son also behaves as he is.

Ok, here is a good example. I called my wife a few minutes ago just to say hello and ask her how her day is going. I had not heard from her. Her and her son were out together having a great time together. I am glad they are having a good time. He actually got out of the house and went to her water aerobics class with her. He didn’t do them but he actually met a couple young men at the pool that were encouraging to him. That has uplifted my wife, rightfully so. She is all laughing and making funny jokes. My wife is getting help for herself doing these classes, she is actually sticking with them.

Anyway my point being, her son is the center of her universe. She and I could not go out and have a good time like this because her mind’s focus would be on the fact that her son was not out with us OR he would call every 15 minutes and bug her and she then gives our schedule of where we are what we are doing how soon we will be home. Could we all go do things together at times? Yes.

She has not shown any desire to anything alone with me for almost our whole marriage (5.5 years). She even was telling me how her and him were having coffee this morning and laughing and having a good time (happy for them). That is what she and I used to do, get up together and drink coffee in the morning and talk.  If this son issue could ever be helped then there are still the BPD issues to deal with.  I know some of this sounds like I am being jealous but to put it all in context I am not being jealous.

Here are a few of texts she sent me yesterday late afternoon and into the evening:

I just wish you viewed some things in a more positive manner. Maybe rather than feeling aggravated and resentful about how (son name) and I interact, let it be kind and positive? Like maybe "I think it's good the way she practices patience with (son name).
I will pray for God to keep giving the grace she needs to deal with him." That's just one example and said with love


It all depends on one's attitude and how they choose to view something. We can always find good in something and if you want to bad enough you can always find bad


I'm never going to stop trying to replace the bad with the good and figuring out ways to make things work and that mainly involves doing things different. (one husband for another till I get it right? Im number 6) (these are just words when applied to the marriage) It's something in my nature that God has blessed me with. I have done it all my life

I know what my gut is telling me folks and what the facts are

Sam, if we divorce a major part of me will feel relief. If I stay under the circumstances it will never be good

[Grey Kitty]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but this is what I hear from you, byfaith:

I do not think I communicated this since my initial post but she pulled filing for the divorce "off the table" It's on the stove ready to be served.

Your wife is threatening divorce, but isn't going through with it, and you don't know when or if she will act. (She might never fine for divorce, no matter how many times she threatens to!)

if we divorce a major part of me will feel relief. If I stay under the circumstances it will never be good

You do not believe she is capable of enforcing boundaries with her son, and making some space in your marriage for just you and her. (Without her son intruding) [And even if she did, there are other BPD issues that would be very difficult to resolve besides this.]

You don't want a marriage with her like this, the way it is. You don't expect it to get better.

Q1: Why are you staying in this marriage, waiting for her to end it, instead of ending it yourself or working with her to end it?

[byfaith]

answer to your question GK,

Just being honest. I don't know if this is a weakness or not. I am the type of person that wants to deal with the situation to avoid hurt at all costs.
I don't want the other person to hurt and I think I want an easy ride out of the storm. It isn't going to happen. I don't want people to get hurt. Divorce sends a ripple affect. Correct me if I am wrong on this.
Some ponds are just bigger than others.

I have been trying to figure me out. It just hit me, until I can handle the fact that I am going to hurt some people   then I will be where I am, my fault.

My wife got tired of one of her aquariums last summer and she just flushed the fish down the toilet. I was kind of shocked that she did it. Then she texted me this "My needs surpassed their's is all I can say"

I am getting to that point.
Our MC even advised us on a 30 day separation with limited contact and therapy.
It's that volatile.

I have places lined up to stay for the separation.

[Grey Kitty]

Just being honest. I don't know if this is a weakness or not. I am the type of person that wants to deal with the situation to avoid hurt at all costs.
I don't want the other person to hurt and I think I want an easy ride out of the storm. It isn't going to happen. I don't want people to get hurt.

Not wanting anybody to be hurt isn't a weakness. It is a great moral strength.

I have been trying to figure me out. It just hit me, until I can handle the fact that I am going to hurt some people   then I will be where I am, my fault.

Yes, I think you are 100% correct there.

There are two things in this equation I'd like to point out:

1. You are being hurt too. Daily when you live with your wife. You are a real person, and yourself being hurt counts, not just everybody else. There absolutely are times to sacrifice yourself for others, and that is a great strength, a wonderful thing too. But if nobody benefits from your sacrifice, should you still do it?

2. Yes, ripples will spread out and disrupt or hurt people if you divorce. But if you choose to stay, there is hurt in that too.

You get to make two kinds of choices when it comes to people getting hurt:

What harm am I willing to do?
What harm am I willing to watch be done?

... .let me put this in terms of the barrel of the gun you are staring down... .

What ongoing hurt and harm am I willing to allow in order to avoid being the "bad guy" who ends this marriage?

[formflier]

Regarding not wanting to hurt other people.  I would hope you can do some thinking about the difference in hurting someone and harming them.

As in "that hurt my feelings"... .versus... ."that did real harm to me"

Obviously... .I would want you to focus on not doing harm.  Sometimes trying to avoid a hurt can actually harm people.

I am getting to that point.
Our MC even advised us on a 30 day separation with limited contact and therapy.
It's that volatile.

I have places lined up to stay for the separation.

So... .I'm assuming you have places lined up for your wife and son to stay at? ... .

Has she offered?

What was her reaction to this idea?

FF