How fast to forgive?

[mitten]

Our loved ones with BPD have wild mood swings that often aim the disrespect and blame at us, causing arguments we didn't want or start.  Just as quick as these arguments start, they end.  After they end (and the BPD person is back in a "good" mood and has seemingly forgotten what they'd said/done) do we just ride the good times or should there be a consequence for the BPD person?  Are we suppose to act as if nothing happened?

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[Under The Bridge]

Some 'setting clear boundaries' action definitely needs to be taken or else we're just left with two options, neither of which are satisfactory;

1 - We say nothing and just accept the abuse but this causes immense stress to us, especially as we know we've done nothing wrong. Abuse is abuse, whether intentional or not and it's no way to conduct a relationship; both parties deserve respect.

2 - We speak up, defend ourselves and point out that it is their fault. This also does no good as the BPD sufferer is incapable of logical reason or accepting any blame. If something is clearly white they will only see it as black and make you out to be the perpetrator of all problems.

Setting gentle boundaries like 'If you continue to shout at me then I'm going to leave the room until we can discuss it properly' would seem to be the answer... but you have to be committed to going through with it, as they will test your boundaries and if they know you won't keep to them, they will take advantage of it.

Do you think you could set such boundaries and keep to them? From the many posts on here it can have good results in defusing situations.

[mitten]

Setting gentle boundaries like 'If you continue to shout at me then I'm going to leave the room until we can discuss it properly' would seem to be the answer...

Great advice!  This is exactly what I did!   3 times I went to a different room after telling her "Let me know when you want to talk about it without yelling, and I'm leaving the room until then". 

What I'm wondering now, is what do you do after the fact?  I kept leaving the room, she kept following.  We've since moved on but it doesn't feel right to simply forget about it and be cheerful with her again... but everything in BPD relationships is counter intuitive, so maybe it is the right thing to do....  just feels like there should be a consequence, but not sure that is actually helpful?

[Pook075]

Our loved ones with BPD have wild mood swings that often aim the disrespect and blame at us, causing arguments we didn't want or start.  Just as quick as these arguments start, they end.  After they end (and the BPD person is back in a "good" mood and has seemingly forgotten what they'd said/done) do we just ride the good times or should there be a consequence for the BPD person?  Are we suppose to act as if nothing happened?

For me, it would depend on my long term goal and the actual relationship.

For instance, if it was a relative I only saw at Christmas and Thanksgiving, then I'd just let it go and accept that it's not in my power to change anything.

For an immediate relative that you're dealing with daily, it's important to "pick your battles".  If you try to hold them responsible for everything, then everything is going to be a drag out fight.  What's the point in that since it only makes things worse.

Again, for me personally, the goal is not to get an apology...it's to avoid arguments in the first place.  If a serious line in crossed then I would speak up, but even then it wouldn't be to tell someone that they're wrong.  It would be more of stating that I wasn't putting up with that and would not be around it.

[mitten]

Again, for me personally, the goal is not to get an apology...it's to avoid arguments in the first place.  If a serious line in crossed then I would speak up, but even then it wouldn't be to tell someone that they're wrong.  It would be more of stating that I wasn't putting up with that and would not be around it.

This makes a lot of sense and typically what I do.  I actually have a date night planned with my spouse tonight, but it just seems fake to switch gears and be all into each-other so fast, without an apology.  But of course people with BPD can't apologize, so I'm probably just best to suck it up since I addressed it in the moment. 

[CC43]

My general approach is very similar to yours:  I'll leave the room if the conversation is too heated or abusive.  Sometimes I don't say anything at all and simply drift out of the room.  When my loved one is primed for a fight, they will typically follow me to another room.  Then I might say something like, I need to cool off / We're not getting anywhere / I don't want to shout / Let's take this up when we're both calmer, and I'll drift out of the room again.  I might say, I need to get some fresh air for a minute and leave the home completely, especially if my nerves are frazzled.  This is always disguised as me needing a break -- and I typically do need one because of all the yelling, accusations and circular talk -- but I'm giving them a chance to cool off, too.  Think of it as giving them an adult "time out."  Then I'll typically do some simple chores or tasks, to keep my distance during the time out, and to make it look like I'm going about my normal business, even if I'm flustered on the inside.

If I'm dealing with a mostly rational person, they will probably apologize in one form or another.  But if I'm dealing with BPD, I don't expect an apology, because the victim mentality is so deeply engrained that apologizing is out of the question--they never accept responsibility, and it's always someone else's fault.  Having said that, I think it's typical BPD behavior to pretend like the incident didn't happen, at least until the topic is dredged up again.

Sometimes I'll be stuck in a location, such as a car, where physical separation isn't possible in the short term.  That's when I use the gray rock tactic.  I'll sit as still and quietly as a gray rock, doing whatever possible to avoid adding any emotional fuel to the fire.  I'll concentrate on my breathing.  Sometimes the rant will continue, but I'll feel a little emotionally detached.  Sometimes they'll ask, Don't you have anything to say?  And that's when I'll say, There's nothing that I can say that will make it better.  And that is typically true.  If I'm lucky, the anger will fizzle out.  If I'm worried about driving, I might say, Let's drop this for now and get to the destination safely, and we can talk about it some more when we get there, OK?  The same goes for the telephone:  if I get a raging call when I'm driving, I'll say, This is stressing me out, I'll call you as soon as I arrive, I don't want to get in an accident.  Or something like this:  If you're calling to yell at me again / call me names, I'm hanging up.

[mitten]

Sometimes I'll be stuck in a location, such as a car, where physical separation isn't possible in the short term.  That's when I use the gray rock tactic.  I'll sit as still and quietly as a gray rock, doing whatever possible to avoid adding any emotional fuel to the fire.  I'll concentrate on my breathing.  Sometimes the rant will continue, but I'll feel a little emotionally detached. 

I had never heard of the gray rock tactic!  I love that.  So it sounds like once their rant is over you accept that they won't (can't) apologize and go on with the relationship as usual? 

[kells76]

Hi mitten;

Our loved ones with BPD have wild mood swings that often aim the disrespect and blame at us, causing arguments we didn't want or start.  Just as quick as these arguments start, they end.  After they end (and the BPD person is back in a "good" mood and has seemingly forgotten what they'd said/done) do we just ride the good times or should there be a consequence for the BPD person?  Are we suppose to act as if nothing happened?

What are some examples of "consequences" that you're envisioning?

What would the goal be (ideally)?

[mitten]

Doesn't it feel odd to pretend it didn't happen?  Are we supposed to go right back to our "normal"?  I guess that's the goal, but it feels like someone shouldn't be able to do that whenever they want, without consequence (time apart, anger from the person they abused, having to issue an apology, etc)

But I guess I'm answering my own question  They screamed at me and were disrespectful.  I provided a boundary in the moment by walking to another room 3 times.  Their mood improved so now we move on.

[kells76]

Maybe there are three ideas all intertwined here, and it might help to untangle them:

-boundaries,
-natural outcomes, and
-consequences

A boundary is a rule that I have for myself and my own life, about what I will let into my life. It may also be phrased as a "limit". "I can do X... I cannot do Y". "I'm able to A... I'm not able to B".

Boundaries are for us and our own protection. We don't have boundaries in order to get others to do things or stop doing things. Boundaries are like umbrellas: when I use an umbrella, that doesn't stop the rain... but it does keep me dry. The rain can keep raining... or not... me using the umbrella has no effect on the rain, only on my own dryness 

A true boundary is something I have complete control over, and won't require anyone else's cooperation, approval, enjoyment, agreement, or participation.

That being said -- because of fundamental human nature, where we can respond differently when someone changes behavior, it's not impossible that living out a boundary could (indirectly) influence another person to change. But that's more an "icing on top" sort of outcome, not the goal of a boundary.

The goal of a boundary is to protect yourself from harm.

But I guess I'm answering my own question  They screamed at me and were disrespectful.  I provided a boundary in the moment by walking to another room 3 times.  Their mood improved so now we move on.

How would you articulate or verbalize that boundary? I.e., "I don't stay in rooms where there is screaming"? Something else?

...

The idea that others may (or may not... no guarantee) change their behaviors in response to our boundaries/rules is connected to the idea of natural outcomes.

One partner having (and sticking to, 100% of the time -- this is important) a boundary around, say, not listening to screaming, can over time provide many examples of a natural outcome to the other partner.

The natural outcome of one partner screaming, and the other partner having a boundary of not sticking around to listen to screaming, is that the first partner will be alone when screaming.

Whether that first partner connects the dots on that, isn't in our control.

But 100% followthrough on our own rules for ourselves, provides "natural outcome" learning moments to others. We don't have to explain verbally "can't you see how when you scream, I leave"? Our actions provide the natural outcome.

It's really important to highlight that we can't be doing this to "teach them a lesson". Again, the fundamental purpose of a boundary cannot be punitive or didactic... it's us putting the focus where it belongs (ourselves, our values, our priorities, our lives) and allowing others to learn, or not, whatever they choose to... or not.

We don't "do" boundaries in order to "force" the other partner to experience natural outcomes. We "do" boundaries because we respect ourselves.

The converse is sometimes that when we don't have boundaries, we are not providing the partner with opportunities to learn and grow. I.e., if I stick around to take abusive language because I misguidedly think I have to validate everything (not true!), then I've deprived my partner of the opportunity to self-soothe. I can't make my partner take that opportunity, but I can make it worse by not respecting myself, and staying to listen to hurtful words.

...

Consequences sounds punitive to me -- like I want to teach the other person a lesson through deprivation, withholding, etc.

This is the key, really nuanced point, I think.

A person might experience a natural outcome "as if" it were a consequence -- it might feel punishing to be alone -- but consequences cannot be what drives our behavior and choices.

And, often, when we talk about consequences, it isn't that having that person experience consequences is what I actually want. What I want is for them to change! To learn! To do something differently! I want consequences to be the lever that I can pull that will finally have an effect on my partner.

And what's difficult is that I could "consequence" my partner 1000 times but I have no control over if my partner chooses to learn. All I do have control over is not depriving my partner of opportunities to learn... and my own attitudes, choices, and boundaries.

...

Lots of food for thought -- any of that on target?

...

Doesn't it feel odd to pretend it didn't happen?

Is someone making you pretend that it didn't happen? (I know that sounds facetious, but it might help us untangle this a bit more)

Are we supposed to go right back to our "normal"?

 To me, that's a question of you being in touch with your own feelings more than wanting to "teach her a lesson" or "make him see".

Check in with yourself after a big conflict. How do you feel? Are you ready to reconnect? Do you need more time to self-soothe and get yourself to a better baseline? Do you have emotional needs that might need tending to, whether by your own self, or with a professional?

"Getting back to normal" has much less to do with your partner and much more to do with your own connection to yourself. If you aren't ready, then it doesn't have to be a big production or announcement -- you just aren't ready, so you might share that you will be taking some time to take care of yourself.

Or, maybe you can find some balance -- you do still feel hurt, and you are OK with trying to reconnect, and you can hold both of those at once.

Or, you aren't in a place to reflect on what happened, and need to just "get back to normal life", and you recognize and own that you're making that choice.

it feels like someone shouldn't be able to do that whenever they want, without consequence (time apart, anger from the person they abused, having to issue an apology, etc)

Two things can be true at the same time:

it feels like your partner shouldn't be able to do that, and

your partner is able to do that

I'm not saying that your partner having screaming blowups is healthy.

I am saying that you don't control that.

She gets to do that... you get to gain clarity on your boundaries and values, and decide how best to protect yourself and the relationship from harmful situations, and when you have the emotional resources to reconnect.

Your partner may have her own "return to baseline" timeframe... you get to have your own.

You aren't required to do anything... you aren't required to pretend anything, say anything, do anything, etc. You're in the driver's seat for how you respond to how things are.

None of this makes the relationship easy... but letting go of "how things should be" and figuring out how to navigate "how things are" may help decrease the mental spinning on whether it's fair or just or not. (it isn't fair... it isn't just... and it's happening).

Hard stuff... will be interested to hear more of your take on it.

[doopywoo]

Not OP, but this thread has given me a lot to think about. Regardless of how I respond to my partner during and after a fight/split, even if I act on my boundaries and do my best to take care of myself, I end up hurt, and resentment builds. Abuse is mentally damaging, and repeatedly dissociating/rationalizing to cope can’t be much better. Is this just the reality for most people in a relationship with someone with BPD? Is there something I’m missing?

I don’t mean to generalize; I realize everyone is different. I’m sure therapy and a good support system help, but it feels like they just mitigate the trauma of it all rather than preventing it.

[Under The Bridge]

We've since moved on but it doesn't feel right to simply forget about it and be cheerful with her again... but everything in BPD relationships is counter intuitive, so maybe it is the right thing to do....  just feels like there should be a consequence, but not sure that is actually helpful.

Remember that that BPD is an illness of illogical and emotional thinking. When a non-BPD partner has a bad mood or snaps at us - and we all do sometimes - they can appreciate what they did, apologise and promise not to do it again. We get the closure we naturally expect. But closure is one thing you won't get from a BPD for the simple reason that, in their way of thinking, they never do anything wrong and are always the victim.

It helps to also remember it's usually not meant personally and in fact is more often directed at the person they have the most feelings for. It's still difficult to just 'let it go' every time though, as our natural instinct is to push back.

Defusing as much as possible is the best option, but that of course assumes that you're willing to continue the relationship under those terms - everyone's tolerances are different.

[mitten]

The idea that others may (or may not... no guarantee) change their behaviors in response to our boundaries/rules is connected to the idea of natural outcomes.

One partner having (and sticking to, 100% of the time -- this is important) a boundary around, say, not listening to screaming, can over time provide many examples of a natural outcome to the other partner.

The natural outcome of one partner screaming, and the other partner having a boundary of not sticking around to listen to screaming, is that the first partner will be alone when screaming.

Whether that first partner connects the dots on that, isn't in our control.

Thanks (as always) Kells.  This is some good stuff that took me a solid day to reflect on.  I especially like your take on natural outcomes. 

I guess I did everything "right" in this case.  Sometimes I just feel like they (the person with BPD) shouldn't be allowed to be a complete ass, and then go back to pretending that nothing happened whenever they want.  But then again, I forget, that that is exactly what BPD is...

[once removed]

Regardless of how I respond to my partner during and after a fight/split, even if I act on my boundaries and do my best to take care of myself, I end up hurt, and resentment builds. Abuse is mentally damaging, and repeatedly dissociating/rationalizing to cope can’t be much better. Is this just the reality for most people in a relationship with someone with BPD? Is there something I’m missing?

I don’t mean to generalize; I realize everyone is different. I’m sure therapy and a good support system help, but it feels like they just mitigate the trauma of it all rather than preventing it.

the idea is to build an environment that limits or negates abuse, and is also conducive to repair.

this requires a combination of strength, and benevolence.

of course people with BPD can't apologize

sure they can. but to apologize requires vulnerability. people of all kinds struggle there, and its true that people with bpd traits struggle extra.

there isnt room for vulnerability in a punitive environment, where there is perceived punishment for screw ups. we all lose our cool in relationships, do or say things we regret. we need the room to be able to return to our partners, to say we screwed up, and to then repair the rift - to bond. ever hear of make up sex? thats two people coming together to repair. in your hurt, you dont want to discourage or shut down that effort.

a bpd relationship is a special needs relationship. as a rule, there will be turbulence when it comes to loving someone who struggles to regulate their emotions. in our unique relationships, we all have to determine what our limits are, and also have realistic expectations when it comes to theirs.

but people with bpd traits tend to intuitively know what our limits are. at their worst, they may walk right up to the line, but they wont cross it - not when they know and recognize a real limit that would threaten the relationship.

as for enforcing our limits, people, and relationships as a whole, respond best to positive reinforcement. when it comes to resolving conflict, think more lifestyle change than quick ways to win or get out of turbulence.

in an environment that is conducive to repair, where there is safety, trust, and overall validation, there is space for enforcing our limits as part of that repair.

so, when theres turbulence (or abuse), that isnt the ideal time for punitive measures. when it reaches our limits, yes, it may be the time to protect ourselves; a relationship where we are doormats for abuse isnt ideal, either.

but the time to try to affect positive change (positive reinforcement), ideally, are times of calm. when emotions arent heightened. these are the times for couples to check in with each other, to discuss what is and isnt working, and to communicate our limits, when both parties are more likely to be able to hear each other without swords and shields up.

my ex and i fought once over christmas gifts. if i recall correctly, she was disappointed in something i got her. but she was extra hurtful; she suggested her gifts to me were both more expensive and more thoughtful. sitting there, it occurred to me that she actually didnt pay for them at all, her mother did, but that really wasnt the point.

later, maybe a month later, in a time of calm, we were discussing our relationship, and it came up. i brought up that incident, and how it was hurtful to me. not only did she apologize to me; she told me, in her own words, how screwed up she thought it was of her to say that, to anyone, and she told me it would never happen again. i knew when she said it, that it never would, and it never did.

[cynp]

This is a very good topic. I have found myself at the mercy of my partner's moods. I feel so weary and out ot sorts when they go from rage to pleasant in the space of 20 mins. i guess I am so thankful when they stop with the yelling and namecalling. that I'm willing to pretend to forget. It is hard.   

[Ravenous Reader]

This quote is the one I'm holding on to for fear life at the moment: Letting go of "how things should be" and figuring out how to navigate "how things are" may help decrease the mental spinning on whether it's fair or just or not. (it isn't fair...it isn't just...AND it's happening.) (I think it was Kells.)

Oh. My. Goodness. I've been feeling FURIOUS lately realizing the amount of emotional caretaking I've been doing for years...and am honestly surprised at my own venom about it; wanting him to "pay" for his outbursts is so not helpful, but it's what I'm feeling lately. Being able to remind myself, "It's NOT fair...it's NOT just...AND it's happening..." will remind me to keep myself in thr driver's seat of what I will allow myself to be exposed to. I admire the ones who say they drift out of the room & make it appear they're needing to do something that happens to be away from the raging partner...even if they feel flustered, they're trying to NOT appear so. Zen and Buddha and all that...!

I suppose some of the venom is also self-directed, because who has allowed this for so long? (That would be ME.) My therapist recommended a more physically satisfying form of stress release today--in addition to the yoga, walking, journaling, etc. Punching a pillow...or even visiting a "break room" where you pay to smash things? (I'm going to investigate that because it sounds like it could be so FUN.) A girls' night with my aunt and mom!

[mitten]

I suppose some of the venom is also self-directed, because who has allowed this for so long? (That would be ME.)

I can relate!  Each one of us that "chose" to be in a relationship with someone who has BPD traits likely has lots of things in common - fear of conflict, people pleasing, etc.  The things I put up with when dating that others would not have is staggering.  Sometimes I try to think about how a "normal" man would react if his spouse had BPD traits.  And most of the time I conclude that they wouldn't put up with it.   

[mitten]

This is a very good topic. I have found myself at the mercy of my partner's moods. I feel so weary and out ot sorts when they go from rage to pleasant in the space of 20 mins. i guess I am so thankful when they stop with the yelling and namecalling. that I'm willing to pretend to forget. It is hard.   

Me too.  It's almost a weird euphoric feeling when they go back to "being" the person you fell in love with after a stretch of mood swings.  I'm also trying to not let their constant mood swings impact my mood. 

[kells76]

I'm also trying to not let their constant mood swings impact my mood. 

She owns her moods, you own your moods -- sounds like a good mindset to have 

What approaches have you found helpful so far? Just being very mentally aware of the difference... inner monologue/self-talk in those moments ("it's true that she feels horrible right now. That is sad for her, and today I still plan to relax and feel at peace")... reading a book/educating yourself about it... other?

[cynp]

It's almost a weird euphoric feeling when they go back to "being" the person you fell in love with after a stretch of mood swings.

100% this. Sometimes I feel as if I live and die by what kind of day they are having. When they are "normal" i am alomst giddy w/ relief. I never knew how many people have benn living my life with their loved ones. 

[Ravenous Reader]

Cynp, it does feel a little strange to read that others have lived through/are living through circumstances we would never in a million years have believed that could be nearly identical to what we've experienced. It's kind of unsettling and surreal, but also weirdly comforting!

Kells mentions being very aware of our inner monologue/self-talk, and sometimes that can be super helpful..."WOW, he's in a rotten frame of mind right now...and I can decline the invitation to let my positive mood falter and spiral down with him." I can offer him nonverbal "I see you" actions, such a pat on the arm/butt, or a quick kiss on the cheek or neck, or even a wink (while at the same time telling myself that it's OK--I can still be ok even when he is obviously not ok). At times, it can feel like I am betraying him by holding on to the determination to "be at peace" when he is so obviously not at peace, but I try to remember one of the best things I can do for BOTH of us is to stay grounded and stable and not swirl/storm/etc. I have felt like it's barbaric for me to enjoy myself when he is miserable; it's an odd life we're living, isn't it?