Feeling overwhelmed and tired...know the next downcycle is imminent

[Ravenous Reader]

I am so thankful for all the info here. I've been reading for hours and I'm starting to remember that I'm not alone and not "crazy" for wishing the relationship could be more stable and peaceful. Seeing a therapist every other week is helpful; I'm learning how to set and maintain boundaries. We attempted marriage counseling a couple of years ago & it led to us getting separate counselors. (Best thing EVER!) He won't return to his counselor and is undiagnosed/untreated. This past fall I was considering separation & "just happened across" the BPD info online and was absolutely stunned...our relationship's rockiness started to make sense! Looking back at our 25+ years together & finally having a lens to understand some of the insane arguments and "discussions" we've had for decades now...

I suppose today I am grieving what I thought "could be" an emotionally healthy relationship...I am choosing to be OK with him being unhappy and untreated (for now). So much reading and journaling and praying and forgiving and soul-searching! Anyway, this is new for me (I am not on Facebook, etc.); I'm hopeful it will be a light for me in dark times "when all other lights go out."

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[BonfireLit]

For sure! There is definitely something weirdly comforting in reading about shared experiences. Like how it is very exhausting when it's difficult to carve out time for yourself, because your partner sees it as betrayal/abandonment. I joined this forum because it's easier to do secretly - she starting splitting when I tried to attend a ZOOM support group meeting!

[cynp]

I relate to the OP's post. Right now I too am choosing to accept my partners illness and behavior. I know there is only so much I can do. I cannot choose happiness for another person. I cannot force another prson into treatment.

[Ravenous Reader]

Exactly! You reminded me of so many, many times when my partner has felt abandoned and rejected when I spend even a few moments talking on the phone to my mom or aunt.  Sometimes just him hearing a text notification will make him jealous, so sometimes I set it to silent or vibrate to avoid drama! The tricky part is never knowing WHEN things will set him off.

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family!  There are so many people here who can relate to your experiences and each of us here arrived the same way- wondering if we were crazy since nobody seems to understand what we're going through.  That's why this site is called BPD Family; we're all here to support each other and share wisdom.

For grieving what "could be", please don't give up hope quite yet.  I realize how challenging this is, but ultimately your relationship comes down to communication- how you communicate to him when he's feeling low self-worth or guilt, shame, rejection, etc.  Him getting help would be incredible but that's not the only path here, it actually starts with you validating what's valid in his life.  Our tools section above can help you with that.

What are some of your specific challenges right now?  And what books have you read so far on BPD?  Give us a little more insight so the community can provide some guidance.

[Ravenous Reader]

Thank you for welcoming me into "the family!" It is life-affirming, and at the perfect time. My counselor suggested I read "Stop Walking on Eggshells," and I've re-visited parts of that text repeatedly to remind me of the very different way he interprets what seem like small things to me. For example, one of my friends stopped by our house after she and I had enjoyed a lovely day of used bookstore shopping (strike #1 against her). Hubby had worked that day & came home wanting to parboil ribs for supper & was boiling them in vinegar. Hubby invited my friend to "come in & stay awhile" (he wanted to be able to prove that he's not "jealous" of her because of some previous rages he'd had about my friendship with her), but the smell was quite strong & my friend commented, "No thank you," (while wrinkling her nose). He attacked her character as "RUDE" and un-called-for as soon as she left the house, and he was LIVID that I didn't want to participate in bashing her like he was doing. (I am glad he waited until she left instead of attacking her while she was still there.) That was YEARS AGO, yet anytime her name is mentioned, it's as if the whole incident happened TODAY & he again wants me to agree with/believe that she is "rude," etc. (when in actuality, she is one of the most inoffensive and kind people I've ever met). I tried to acknowledge (at the time) how I could see that he could feel offended by her remark and nose wrinkling & tried to help him feel "heard," but it wasn't enough. He wanted me to bash her WITH HIM, and I just couldn't do it! He felt so betrayed, as if I'd chosen "her side," when in my mind, there shouldn't have even been "sides" to take! (This was way prior to me knowing ANYTHING about BPD--I'm in my first year of knowledge now and SO thankful to have some explanation of incidents like "The Infamous Vinegar Affair," as I think of it privately in my own mind, etc.) The YEARS-long grudges are particularly difficult for me to handle--I mean, you're not perfect, either (but he doesn't truly ever admit he's not perfect--it's too painful to approach the idea that he might make mistakes or do anything in a way that's not less than absolutely logical and amazing) & we ALL need forgiveness and mercy, yet he refuses to give it to others. (Even before figuring out this BPD aspect, I would tell myself, "He can't give away to others what he won't give to himself," or something similar to help me reframe his refusal/inability to forgive people & to help me view him with more compassion.)

A few months ago, our sweet niece innocently hurt his feelings by asking when she could go home--more than once (I could tell it hurt his feelings because of my newfound knowledge, but the poor 10 y.o. did not have that insight); she had stayed the night with us & was ready to see her parents & brother again that next morning. He responded with absolute RAGE, completely bewildering the girl and yelling at her, "Get your stuff! You're going home NOW!" even going so far as to pull her arm away from the breakfast table & "guiding" (i.e. pushing) her toward the living room to start packing up. He was baffled that I didn't completely support him in his reaction toward her--telling me, "How will she learn and change her behavior and get better if we don't help her?" & repeating the "rude" refrain--that her behavior had been RUDE. I told him that his response was over-sized and even a bit frightening, but then the attack turned toward me for not supporting him in how he handled things. He was so hurt! And all I could think of was, "Waht about our niece???" How hurt is she at being pulled and pushed and yelled at for innocently expressing her desire to go home?" That was one of THE most awful experiences ever...because his rage was directed toward someone other than me. I've told myself "I can handle it" (and most of the time, I can)-- but it was so crazy-making before, during, and after. Since then, she has not expressed any desire to stay with us without her brother--or at all, really, and who can blame her? I was hopeful that the incident would prompt him to re-think his refusal to revisit his therapist, but he just dug in his heels & said when he talked to his brother (niece's dad) about it, supposedly his brother said it was "No big deal!" When I asked my brother-in-law about it, he said he told my husband, "It's no big deal; it's between you and her" (meaning it's between him and our niece). So sad. I was able to tell our sweet niece later when she asked me if I'm scared of him that yes, sometimes it is scary, but I'll be ok and I'm seeing a counselor/therapist who helps me handle the stress. He has loved our niece and nephews FIERCELY ever since their births, but now that they are older & have their own wants/opinions they don't mind voicing, I can see there will be additional strain in the relationships because husband will feel threatened/rejected by them just because they will be themselves (apart from him as their uncle).

Whew! It's just a lot to process and handle and manage. I have always focused on joy and looking for the good & I will continue to do so. For a while, I felt myself "shrinking" away from friends and family and hobbies to avoid the pushback from him (prior to BPD discovery); now I am remembering to put my own oxygen mask on first and I am resetting my boundaries & once again insisting that I can be a good wife AND a good daughter; a good wife AND a good friend; a good wife AND a good niece--I do NOT have to choose one or the other--I can be ALL these things & it'll be OK.

I'm teaching myself Spanish. (He seriously can be jealous of a 2-3 minute Spanish lesson--good grief! Other times he says he's proud of me for tackling a new language.) I've pulled my flute out of the closet and am practicing when he's not home. I'm doing my yoga and walking. And I'm chatting with you guys, my newfound support group. Things are looking up.

Thank you so very much for the incredible, life-improving (dare I say life-saving?) work you are accomplishing here! It is invaluable.

[Ravenous Reader]

One more thing: he's recently "self-diagnosed" with PHD--something he found online called "Perfectly Hidden Depression" and it's one of the reasons he was willing to speak with a therapist. He was talking with his therapist about depression and anger issues (not BPD).

 I've read many things that caution me to NOT share with him my thoughts about a BPD diagnosis, so I've kept it to myself.

[Pook075]

Hubby had worked that day & came home wanting to parboil ribs for supper & was boiling them in vinegar. Hubby invited my friend to "come in & stay awhile" (he wanted to be able to prove that he's not "jealous" of her because of some previous rages he'd had about my friendship with her), but the smell was quite strong & my friend commented, "No thank you," (while wrinkling her nose). He attacked her character as "RUDE" and un-called-for as soon as she left the house, and he was LIVID that I didn't want to participate in bashing her like he was doing. (I am glad he waited until she left instead of attacking her while she was still there.)

Here's where I sort of found a breakthrough in all of this.

Was your husband's reaction justified?  Nope.

Was his anger appropriate?  Nope

Was the friend trying to offend him?  Nope

We can go on and on here, this wasn't your friend's fault.

However, at the same time, your husband's feelings are real and to him, they're perfectly justified.  He was outraged and if we judge in that moment, then it's like saying that their feelings don't matter at all.  That's the part that hurts so much and he hangs onto.

Now, I get it...you weren't taking the friend's side.

But that's not how feelings work, especially for someone with BPD.  Whether it was real or imaginary, he needed someone to understand how he felt...and he still needs that years later.  In other words, it's not about right or wrong...valid or invalid.  This is 100% about him feeling rejected and needing someone to understand how frustrating that would FEEL.

Feelings and facts are two different things.  We shouldn't validate any of the invalid "facts".  But we always have to validate the feelings that come from those instances.

So what was he feeling?  Upset, hurt, and offended that his stinky ribs bothered someone enough to leave.  And he still holds onto that because he is still seeking validation for those feelings; it's not about what actually happened at all. 

I'm not trying to take his side here, mind you.  Instead, I'm trying to show why he reacted the way he did.  Disordered thinking got him there in the moment and it hurt his feelings.  To him personally, she was rude...which makes is 100% true since we're talking about his feelings.  He just wanted someone to say that it would stink to feel that way and they understand how frustrating that would be.

Again, facts don't equal feelings.  That's BPD in a nutshell.

[Ravenous Reader]

I am sure this might seem like overkill, but the gratitude I feel for y'all is overflowing!!! This site is such a place of refuge; such a RELIEF. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Pook, "his feelings are justified" does seem to be one of the (many!) areas where I need work/practice/mental flexibility. When I first read "Stop Walking on Eggshells," the sections that gave me the most pause were the ones where a person was able to VALIDATE feelings that made no logical sense whatsoever. It seems so warped to validate (to confirm or support) the "disordered thinking" that gets a pwBPD enraged; to me, it seems like nodding and agreeing, "Yep, that makes sense" when it absolutely does NOT make sense--it is the opposite of what makes sense! Way back on that particular day (vinegar day), I distinctly recall trying for a few moments, off and on, to "enter in" to his frustrations and to help him feel "heard" (my attempts at validating his reaction), and there were a very few moments where it "felt" safe in the midst of the storm. I am sure this IS one of the keys here, as you've said...I've got to find a way to help him feel accepted in the moment.

It seems so counterintuitive, though...as if I would be reinforcing this idea that the way you view people/the world/etc. is logical and "makes sense," when it seems so far from REALITY. Yes, it may be their "reality," and that's where I feel absolutely unmoored--I am to agree with disordered thinking? It makes me shrivel up inside trying to figure out how I will be able to fake it!

[Pook075]

I am sure this might seem like overkill, but the gratitude I feel for y'all is overflowing!!! This site is such a place of refuge; such a RELIEF. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Pook, "his feelings are justified" does seem to be one of the (many!) areas where I need work/practice/mental flexibility. When I first read "Stop Walking on Eggshells," the sections that gave me the most pause were the ones where a person was able to VALIDATE feelings that made no logical sense whatsoever. It seems so warped to validate (to confirm or support) the "disordered thinking" that gets a pwBPD enraged; to me, it seems like nodding and agreeing, "Yep, that makes sense" when it absolutely does NOT make sense--it is the opposite of what makes sense! Way back on that particular day (vinegar day), I distinctly recall trying for a few moments, off and on, to "enter in" to his frustrations and to help him feel "heard" (my attempts at validating his reaction), and there were a very few moments where it "felt" safe in the midst of the storm. I am sure this IS one of the keys here, as you've said...I've got to find a way to help him feel accepted in the moment.

It seems so counterintuitive, though...as if I would be reinforcing this idea that the way you view people/the world/etc. is logical and "makes sense," when it seems so far from REALITY. Yes, it may be their "reality," and that's where I feel absolutely unmoored--I am to agree with disordered thinking? It makes me shrivel up inside trying to figure out how I will be able to fake it!

No, I'm not asking you to fake it...because you can't spend the rest of your life living a lie.

Let's roleplay for a moment.

We're going to the mall and it's a great day- we're close friends and all is well.  We're talking laughing, and having a fine time.

As we pass the food court, we see an elderly person who's confused, yelling, and accusing everyone around him of something.  He says things like, "How did I get here?  Why did you kidnap me?  What have you done with my wife?"

A security guard approaches the old man and he becomes even more enraged.  "Don't touch me, I'm not going anywhere with you!  Get away from me!"  Then he swings his cane at the officer and almost falls down in the process.

Now, you and I might have different ideas on what's going on here.  After all, the old man says he's been kidnapped.  But the look on his face says he's just scared, confused, and in need of some help.

Yet look where his emotions are- he's showing anger and frustration.  In other words, his feelings aren't matching up with his words at all.

We saw the officer approach logically, and we saw how that played out.  Not good.  So how can we help this man?

Personally, I would approach him slowly and speak just above a whisper.  I'd show concern for him because that's what I'm genuinely feeling.  I'd tell him right up front that everything is okay, he's safe, and I'm there to make sure he gets home safely.  I'd ask if he wants to sit down or if we could get him something to eat.

I'd be kind, gentle, and patient, because that's what his emotions are telling me he needs.

Hopefully I'd win the old man over and he'd start to calm down.  Because that's the only goal here, make him feel safe and help him relax.  Maybe that would help his memory.  And in taking that approach, I might just gain his trust.  Because without his trust, I can't help him.

The same is true for your husband- maybe his words don't align with his emotions when he's struggling internally.  He doesn't have dementia like the old man, but it's very similar when it comes to emotions.  When things get hard, they can react badly.

Compassion is the key to all of this, but to get there you have to ignore the words completely.  Think about an infant crying...there are no words.  So how do you know what to do?  In essence, you don't.  But you calm the baby down and then start checking to see if he's hungry, needs to be changed, etc.  Because that's the main thing the baby needs- comfort.  Your husband is exactly the same.

I hope that helps!

[cynp]

I related so much to to the line "know the next downcycle is imminent." When my partner comes home and is grousing abt a bad day at work, i know that I'm going to get it before the day is over. it dosen't matter what I do or do not do. The bad day will be taken out on me through insults, yelling, criticism. I can feel it coming.

Thinking about what Pook075 wrote above. Like the OP it's very hard to seem like i am agreeing with something that is untrue, hurtful, and sometimes ridiclous. but I need to rmemeber I don't have to agree to validate their feelings.   

[Ravenous Reader]

Strangely enough, just recently I was wondering about different kinds of mental issues that might cause people to disassociate from reality (it kind of helps me understand BPD reactions with a little more compassion & gentleness instead of incredulity), and I thought about people who have dementia! So your example of the elderly gentleman makes sense; logic is not gonna win the day there, and when my husband is in pain (much of the time), logic won't lead to a desired outcome. I may WISH it would, but it's just not likely to lead anywhere helpful.

I am not exactly sure where I found the video link on this extremely extensive treasure trove of a website...but I just watched this and took notes and seriously LAUGHED aloud & it was amazing. It's titled "Understanding Validation in Families" by Alan E. Fruzzetti.

Here are some thoughts on the material (& a few direct quotes):

*He makes a distinction between "validation" and a "validating response," and for me, that is HUGELY helpful because you're not validating unreality, but instead showing a response that acknowledges what that person is feeling.

*For example, "Alan, you're a big jerk (or worse)!" He says that's not a fact; there's no such thing as a "big jerk;" that's a judgment. I can DO things you don't like, and you can say, "Gosh, I really don't like what you DID," and I can say, "I know you don't [like what I did]." (This is much better than saying, "I didn't do it," or "It shouldn't bother you.")

Instead of replying, "No, I'm not a big jerk," provide a validating response, such as, "I know you're mad at me/upset with me." It is a response that shows that you notice what the person is feeling and keeps the door open just a little bit to find out more/move toward repair...it acknowledges the quality of the offended person's experience, which is that I did something you don't like/that you're unhappy with...

*Goodness gracious, though, just my breathing and existing and being a human can trigger a person with BPD to feel abandoned/worthless/unhappy. This sounds a bit psychotic...one person's unwellness causes them to lash out at another person & the attacked person is to feel "curious" about what's making the enraged one upset?

*One way to show a validating response when someone is thinking/feeling/wanting something is simply to listen and pay attention--this communicates that "I'm interested in what your experience is..."

Now this is where I stumble so very, very often--when I'm being verbally attacked and bombarded, I am pretty much NOT interested in your "experience," I'm interested in protecting myself from the onslaught--especially when it comes out of left field and it seems so outsized and peace-shattering--so much energy being spent on things/events that do not seem to warrant it--yes, I realize the disorder is mentally screaming in THEIR MINDS that this occasion DOES warrant this reaction...but does it, really? Exhausting. (OK, I know...take a break, breathe, pet the cat/dog, sip a cup of tea/cocoa...or punch a pillow, check out what "smash rooms" are, invest in what brings you joy!) Seriously, I don't think we can emphasize this enough--discover (or re-discover) what brings you JOY and just suck the marrow out of it when you can to refill your own tank & help yourself be YOU.

Learning a lot and thankful to be able to "flop about a bit" on here, (as I think one of the introductory messages here puts it) regarding how moderators respond to us "newbies." You have been so warmly welcoming and provide food for thought. I'm grateful.

[Pook075]

Now this is where I stumble so very, very often--when I'm being verbally attacked and bombarded, I am pretty much NOT interested in your "experience," I'm interested in protecting myself from the onslaught--

If you're being verbally assaulted, that's not the time to validate feelings...at least that's not going to be the primary goal. 

When my BPD daughter is in that mindset, I'll try once or twice to say, "What's going on?  Why are you so upset?"  And how I say it is as important as what I say...it can't come off as judgmental or challenging.  I say it with love and compassion like, "Oh my gosh, what happened to you...let's talk about this."

Note, my first reaction is to lean in, which gives my kid a bigger chance to be abusive.  At the same time though, I'm not agreeing with her words...all my focus is on her feelings.  What happened?  Why are you so upset?  I'm genuinely concerned.

Sometimes, that's enough to change the entire course of the conversation.  My kid sees empathy and begins to relax, just a smidge.  Then she tells me what's going on and it probably has nothing to do with me...she was just sounding off in the moment because she was hurt and wanted to rant. 

I know from experience that I can choose to either be her advocate or her enemy in that moment.  If I'm ugly because she said something ugly, there's an explosion.  If I show compassion, maybe it all blows over before it even begins.

Sometimes, my kid is really worked up and the explosion happens anyway.  She'll tell me how I failed her when she was 10....or whatever comes out.  Now her wrath is solely on me.  And at this point, there's nothing I can do to help her directly.  But by making a healthy boundary, I can still help from escalating.  So I say, "Listen, we're both upset so I'm going to walk away for a few minutes to let us cool off."

Now, I wasn't upset...but it sounds so much better than saying "You're upset so I'm leaving."

This lets her cool down on her own, process what's going on, and maybe 5 minutes later we can have a perfectly normal conversation.  Again, sometimes that's not possible...and if so, I'll check in, show a little compassion, then go right back to my boundary if I'm being yelled at.  We'll try again later.

Through all of this, never one time do I talk about our past or something she's blaming me for UNLESS she's calm and thinking rationally.  Because that's the thing about feelings...they don't like facts.  So we fight feelings with feelings (unstable/unhinged with calm/loving), and facts with facts (real conversations about real life problems).

Sometimes, I think of my daughter as a 2 year old that can barely talk....because in a way it's true.  When she's relying on emotion and spiraling, her words can't help and she's throwing a temper tantrum.  So I try to love her through it, I don't mix facts with feelings, and I walk away if necessary.  But i do all of it as lovingly as possible.

Make sense?

[Ravenous Reader]

Makes a LOT of sense!

The step-by-step picture of what you try and what could possibly happen next is incredibly helpful, because it helps me "see" myself in a similar situation with my husband and helps me mentally prepare to try a different way of responding. It just doesn't "feel" normal to lean in and allow someone the opportunity to heap more abuse on you (as you noted), but showing that level of non-judgmental compassion can lead to fewer full-fledged storms. (Funnily/sadly enough, giving in to what "feels" normal for nons can seriously escalate a situation we didn't want to begin with; very difficult and high-level sort of psychology here...)

I suppose another level/layer for me to consider is how often the wrath IS directed solely at me (as you put it); our history of 24 years of marriage + 3-4 years of friendship/dating prior to marriage has got a lot of stories and hurts and triggers, and we both have issues with how we have processed (and continue to process) our shared history. Sometimes I am just SO TIRED of the same old drama that I do not respond well & wow do I regret it when I do try to circumvent/take a shortcut & just sadly say, "You're right--I'm wrong." (That ultimately is what he wants, over and over and over--what I did or didn't do was selfish, thoughtless, "rude," etc. & the sooner I admit how right he is in his view of this AND the more I can work on improving myself--just "DO BETTER"--the better our lives would be). I feel like I'm constantly doing MORE THAN ENOUGH to "do better" & make our relationship work in a more healthy way that it seems the height of unfairness for him to accuse me otherwise.

Remembering the 2-year-old emotional comparison you made helps SOMETIMES; other times, I find myself feeling quite bitter that I'm married to "a big old baby" that makes life so much harder than it needs to be! He really does have some wonderful qualities, but the past 4-5 years seem to have been way harder to handle than the first 20-ish years. I've been pondering what feels like my increasing inability to deal kindly with his shortcomings and why it seems as though he is getting meaner as time goes by. A lot of this was internal and hidden from me--occasionally his self-hatred and negativity would surface, but it was not nearly as often as it shows up now. Part of that is I think he feels safer to express himself as he truly is; he sometimes stated in our early years together, "I always thought you had more sense than to get involved with a guy like me." (My response? "What do you mean, 'a guy like you?' You're a nice guy--so handsome, loyal, and a hard worker!" Etc.) However, he used to be more able to return to equilibrium and not cycle so far DOWNWARD as he seems to now be doing. His relationship iwth alcohol in the past 2 years has changed--it calls his name much more often and is showing up in weekend binges so he can feel "numb" from life. I am already losing my mom to undiagnosed/un-admitted alcoholism & he's aware of that.

All this to say...the BPD info is still fairly new & is helping me so much as I continue to try to identify unhealthy patterns that BOTH of us engage in and ways to "do better." (This is incredibly intimate that I'm sharing these personal details like this; feels pretty vulnerable...) I appreciate (again) the way y'all take care of others here.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I can relate to your posts, in an indirect way.  I have a BPD stepdaughter who has gotten treatment, and she used to have tantrums like the ones you describe, damaging all sorts of familial relationships.  Some relatives have kept their distance because they are scared of and for her.  I also have a husband who is emotionally reactive and very quick to anger, though I doubt he'd qualify for a BPD diagnosis.  Like your husband, he can practically explode over a scrunched nose, a glance, a sigh or innocent comment that he deems offensive.  Sometimes he'll rail at me if I dare speak to a sibling or parent on the phone for five minutes . . . even when such conversations are comparatively rare, considering that he's on the phone with his family on a daily basis.  What's clear is that the frequency, intensity and inappropriateness of such outbursts seem over-the-top.  He can be easily angered by things that wouldn't bother me at all.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't say he has BPD because he just doesn't fit most of the other criteria, whereas his daughter certainly did when she was untreated.

Anyway, I can relate to the frustration of living with someone who has frequent tantrums.  In addition, sometimes my husband will act like a mean bully.  But on this site I learned about coping tactics, such as not to JADE, and to gray rock.  Those tactics work a lot better with him, because any other reactions tend to feed his ire, and he likes a fight (whereas I don't).  Fortunately, he's healthy enough to calm down, reflect and regret his outbursts, and he'll typically apologize later.  (I'll add that his stepdaughter would NEVER apologize for her inappropriate outbursts, which is typical for BPD.)

But I'm writing all this to give some context, because what I read between the lines in your posts is that your husband probably feels insecure and/or stressed out.  I can say that my husband's outbursts tend to coincide with stressful times in his life--and dealing with his BPD daughter certainly is stressful.  Sometimes when he feels insecure and worried, he's grumpy and irritated, and he's easily triggered.  His insecurity makes it seem like he's actively looking to detect any signs of disobedience or disrespect.  Most of all, he feels powerless and out of control, and so he'll seek to control ME to regain a sense of power.  And that's when he'll flip out, for example if I dare look at my phone, or answer a call or text.  He'll rage if I dare leave the home, unless it's to run an errand that serves him, and if he thinks I'm taking "too long," he'll call me to check on my whereabouts every five minutes, accusing me of leaving him or shirking my duties.  He can't stand it if I spend time with friends, and he'll throw tantrums in an attempt to isolate me completely.  Does that sound familiar?  To me, that's a manifestation of stresses that might be happening elsewhere in his life.  In my husband's case, the main source of stress is his BPD daughter.  But in your husband's case, it could be the workplace, finances or any number of issues.  In summary, the stresses in his life could feed his sense of insecurity, inferiority and powerlessness, and as he views the world through this distorted lens, he becomes easily triggered by any indications of abandonment, disrespect, competition or emasculation.  He might demand that 100% of your attention is on him, and anything you do for yourself becomes a sign of disrespect, especially if you have any fun without him.  Does that sound about right?

Once I figured out the context of my husband's behavior, it was easier for me not to take things so personally (because he can be MEAN!).  And using the JADE and gray rock techniques went a long way to not engaging him in his tantrums, giving him time and space to cool off instead.  In addition, I make a point to LIVE MY LIFE, even if there's a tantrum at the other end of it.  I do not want to end up resenting my husband for making me a slave by allowing him to do that.  Instead, I will pile on the praise for any positive behavior, which I think helps bolster his security and confidence.  Here are some examples.

Darling, thanks so much for making coffee, you're such a good husband.
I'm glad you met up with your friend, wasn't that fun?  It's really important to cultivate friendships, I'm thinking I should invite my girlfriend over.
Wow, the yard looks fantastic after you mowed it.
Thanks so much for taking out the trash, you always remember.
I'm so glad to be married to a grillmaster!
I'm looking forward to spending the weekend with you.
Thanks for the hug, I needed one.
Is there anything special you'd like me to get at the market?  I want to make a special dinner just for you.
I choose you, every day.

All of these comments are sincere!  Even if they are little things, little things are important.  I'll say, "You're such a good husband because of xyz" almost every day.

At the same time, I try to empathize with his source of stress:  "I know that things are rough with your daughter right now, and  it's understandable you're worried.  But she needs you right now, and she's lucky to have you.  Remember, you have me to help you too.  We will get through this.  Let's focus on what can be done today."

[Ravenous Reader]

"He can't stand it if I spend time with friends and he'll throw tantrums in an attempt to isolate me completely" sounds WAY too familiar! That's one of the things that I had started shrinking from (without realizing it)--it wasn't worth the emotional toll I'd have to pay after enjoying myself with ANYONE other than him. Having fun without him has been such an issue over the years that I believe I just stopped trying, and I'm re-awakening to how stifled that kind of life is. We NEED friends; leaning ONLY on a spouse is not healthy!!! He has no friends that he "hangs out with." There is one person he calls his "friend," but it's very one-sided because my husband NEVER reaches out to him--it's always the other way round & always because he needs some help with a project or something needs to be done that will benefit the friend. My husband prides himself on "needing nobody," yet he fumes about how everybody asks him for help & won't return the favor. He feels like a martyr but will NOT ask for help from anyone. How can they help you if you don't ask???

I've recently come across the gray rock method & have had some success with it! I need to check into JADE, however.

I definitely try to praise as much as I can with authenticity--because I see hints of how much he hates himself (even prior to BPD info) and I know he is valuable and worthy and doesn't see it. It's like pouring affirmations into a sieve/colander, though...I think because he inherently disbelieves in his worthiness, the things I say just sort of "pass through," even though I think they abate his misery some of the time, for just a few moments. Depending on his level of stress, when I name and notice what he's doing right/well, etc. (even when he outright SAYS it makes no difference), it can extinguish a few of those self-hating flames he writhes in. It makes my heart ache to know he can't see his value or worth--he doesn't have a secure place to rest or be at peace within himself.

I've said some of the same comments to my husband that you've said to yours! (with genuine appreciation and sincerity) Has your husband argued back with you, though? And tried to minimize/criticize the very thing you're complimenting him for? (I gently repeat the compliment and focus on a specific thing that is/was good in those cases.)

One more thing: You said, "I make a point to LIVE MY LIFE, even if there's a tantrum at the end of it" because you don't want to end up resenting your husband. Good, solid advice. Thank you!

[once removed]

If you're being verbally assaulted, that's not the time to validate feelings...at least that's not going to be the primary goal. 

Pook075 is dead on about this.

i think that, in part due to much of the BPD literature stressing "validate, validate validate", that its easy to get the impression that "validation" is a quick fix to resolve conflict, and become frustrated or decide it "doesnt work".

thats because if you approach someone with the mindset of "using a tool" on them, theyll see right through it.

the key to validation is sincerity. its also knowing when, and how, to use it.

if you were extremely angry with someone, and they responded to you with a bunch of robotic therapist speak, youd feel talked down to. it would make you angrier.

if you felt seen and heard, if the person you were angry with didnt jump into defensiveness or deflect, you would likely feel more in control - more regulated.

thats what validation is, in a nutshell. its more of a lifestyle than a quick fix. and for sincerity to come through, you have to first have empathy. https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

when im in conflict with someone, and theyre coming at me, i dont think "validate them". i deliberately stop, and empathize with them. at that point, validation comes naturally, and it may not mean directly trying to come up with words to try to change how they feel; its about communicating that i hear what theyre trying to say, and i can see the validity in it, even if how theyre expressing it is over the top.

it cant be forced, and while you can learn from examples, just parroting them will be seen through. in all of the communication techniques, while it can take some practice to get natural at, you have to speak in the language of your relationship, the way you ordinarily speak to each other.

[Ravenous Reader]

Onceremoved,
Thank you! The info on empathy & the short video is going to be helpful moving forward. It's surprising for me to consider that I'm overestimating my empathetic listening skills--however, instead of listening to enter another person's world, I am usually listening to learn or analyze or look for a solution or judge...whew! Such a long way to go...

I am looking forward to learning more about this more mindful and present way of BEING in the world--being with others in ways that are not so self-serving or self-centered. Hard to face, though--I've always thought I was pretty good at helping others feel heard and welcomed, and perhaps I am able to do so with others with whom I don't have such a scarred history. Forgive, forgive, forgive.

The article mentions that perhaps we didn't have parents who were very empathetic with us, and in turn we didn't develop effective empathy skills ourselves. "We may need to become very deliberate in developing empathy skills now and seek the advice of others to help us better 'step into the shoes' of our loved one."

I'm feeling some ever-so-slight shifts within, and I am thankful. 

[Ravenous Reader]

One of the most helpful things about this site is that you've helped curate the mountains of information and research on BPD in one easily accessible place--it is so well organized! Also helpful--you have moderators guiding during people during some of the messiest parts of life to reflect and think and feel seen/heard. Through your resources, I just watched Brene Brown's TED talks on shame and vulnerability and feel even more weight shifting off my shoulders. 

[Pook075]

however, instead of listening to enter another person's world, I am usually listening to learn or analyze or look for a solution or judge...whew! Such a long way to go...

Right now, I'm hungry.  And I could tell you how I've meant to eat the past few hours, the calamity in my life that kept me from doing that, and even get into why I'm on an internet forum instead of making something to eat.

When we look at solutions to a problem, it's so easy to get down into the details that we miss the entire point.  Again, I'm hungry.  The solution is to eat something...the details only get in the way.

When your husband is struggling, in a way he's hungry as well.  He's seeking validation.  However, the details also get in the way in that case as well because he can't properly articulate what he's going through.  And honestly, he doesn't want you to fix his problems or find a solution.  He simply wants someone to understand that he's not okay, to empathize with what he's going through.

[Ravenous Reader]

Pook, thanks for your words. I'm sorry that calamity has fallen upon you. I hope it's now passed and the effects are negligible, or very short-lived (& I hope you've eaten as well)!

I'm trying to really hold onto this concept that when my loved one is hurt (so frequently, so easily, so unexpectedly, with so much ire) that what he truly needs is empathy. Thankfully, the imminent downcycle that I thought was coming has not yet manifested--and that could be thanks to the subtle shifts within me because of what I'm learning. Or, it could be that the stresses at work & from our aging parents have lulled a bit in their intensity, who knows?

The hunger analogy is interesting, because as you said, the details of WHY you're hungry "get in the way" of the solution, which is to eat something. If I'm hearing you correctly, that means the details of WHY a pwBPD is angry/hurt "get in the way" of the solution, which is being validated/heard/accepted--that their pain is witnessed with empathy. Is that what you mean?

Something I'm wondering though...if you are constantly hungry and needing to eat a LOT (more than might be considered healthy/normal), isn't that something that needs to be looked at a little more closely? Sure, you can eat and "fix" the problem of being hungry (short-term)--but the frequency and intensity of your hunger being "over the top" needs to be addressed, too, right?

Continuing with this analogy, trying to analyze WHY a person is constantly hungry & desiring a helpful treatment plan to address that issue WHILE they're famished would definitely NOT be helpful/wise/compassionate. So, likewise, wanting to figure out a healthier way forward (for long-term mental health improvement) WHILE a pwBPD is visibly upset in the moment would not be helpful, either. The goal in that moment is to slow down and BE WITH this person who is so loved, yet cannot seem to recall/remember that FACT in the midst of their "emotional storm." Hold on & help them reach safe harbor (if possible) by helping them feel heard/seen. If the storm is unabated, then I'm free to float a safe distance away while leaving them with the message, "I'm here when you're ready..."

What do you think?

[Pook075]

I'm trying to really hold onto this concept that when my loved one is hurt (so frequently, so easily, so
The hunger analogy is interesting, because as you said, the details of WHY you're hungry "get in the way" of the solution, which is to eat something. If I'm hearing you correctly, that means the details of WHY a pwBPD is angry/hurt "get in the way" of the solution, which is being validated/heard/accepted--that their pain is witnessed with empathy. Is that what you mean?

Something I'm wondering though...if you are constantly hungry and needing to eat a LOT (more than might be considered healthy/normal), isn't that something that needs to be looked at a little more closely? Sure, you can eat and "fix" the problem of being hungry (short-term)--but the frequency and intensity of your hunger being "over the top" needs to be addressed, too, right?

Yes, you got the analogy correctly and you're also correct that this could be an "all the time" sort of thing, at least at first.

For your husband, he reacts inappropriately when he's hurt.  But as you comfort him in the moment and those situations turn from a drag out war to a tense moment or two, his reaction the next time isn't as severe.  Because just like the hunger analogy, he gets what he needs in a healthy way and that becomes the new normal.  There's no reason to rant and self-destruct when he can just say, "I'm struggling with this and don't know why."

Continuing with this analogy, trying to analyze WHY a person is constantly hungry & desiring a helpful treatment plan to address that issue WHILE they're famished would definitely NOT be helpful/wise/compassionate. So, likewise, wanting to figure out a healthier way forward (for long-term mental health improvement) WHILE a pwBPD is visibly upset in the moment would not be helpful, either. The goal in that moment is to slow down and BE WITH this person who is so loved, yet cannot seem to recall/remember that FACT in the midst of their "emotional storm." Hold on & help them reach safe harbor (if possible) by helping them feel heard/seen. If the storm is unabated, then I'm free to float a safe distance away while leaving them with the message, "I'm here when you're ready..."

What do you think?

In a perfect world, your husband would take his mental health seriously, realize how much of himself is destructive at times, and he'd find the perfect combination of meds and treatment through therapy.

That's the end goal here...to have a husband that's in remission and rarely shows BPD symptoms.  Yet that's rarely the reality in these situations and most never learn to deal with their mental health in a positive way.

So many here would say due to that, it's just hopeless.  They are who they are, it will never change, and you might as well give up.  But that doesn't have to be your reality, it's not the only path.  Two people are in a relationship and you can meet him halfway to be an encouragement towards healing.  When he's hurt and you react with empathy, he sees it...he feels it.  And something actually changes in the relationship dynamic.

This stuff is so impossibly hard at times.  What you wrote above is absolutely correct though, that's the path towards making this work and to help him weather the storm.  You're on the right path.

[Ravenous Reader]

Pook, thank you for being so clear and honest about the struggles that are inherent in these types of relationships, and yet hopeful and encouraging at the same time. I am feeling shifts toward healthier interactions simply because I know more about what's actually (possibly/probably?) going on instead of feeling blind-sided and expecting "normal" and/or "logical" responses to life.

Thank you for the crystal-clear goal as well: "To have a husband that's in remission and rarely shows BPD symptoms." This may or may not happen & I appreciate your candor about it. You have not sugar-coated anything, and yet you're not just "doom and gloom," either. What hard-earned wisdom you possess! I will be practicing what I'm learning, and I will keep reading and expanding my awareness, and I will keep checking in back here as needed. This has been a life raft during a very tumultuous time, and I'm extremely thankful. 

[Pook075]

I'm so glad that I could be an encouragement, and I am very proud of how much you've grown and centered yourself during the course of this thread.  Keep up the great work!

[CC43]

Hi there,

If your husband is anything like my husband, and it sounds like they share some traits, there's no way that he'd ever see a therapist, because he'd think it was a waste of time and money, and on top of that, he's incredibly stubborn.  Does he resist going to any sort of doctor, even if he has an obvious issue?  My husband is the same way.  He usually prefers to "tough it out" or avoid it altogether, hoping the issue will resolve on its own.

So I've found I have to "manage" his environment a bit.  There were some words about being hungry in this thread, and it's a salient point because my husband gets cranky and "hangry" when he's hungry.  He tends to be too busy or too bothered to make himself a decent lunch.  Though he'll snack, his snack choices aren't very nourishing.  So I decided to make it one of my priorities to keep him fed during the day.  It's not such a big deal because when I make myself breakfast or lunch, I'll make him something too (and I always take the lead on dinner, though he'll typically help with grilling).  I discovered that a key to keeping him more even-keeled was to feed him a big nutritious breakfast, including protein.  That has gone some way in reducing the hangries in the afternoon.  I guess my point is, I was the one to recognize his behavior (testiness/shorter fuse in afternoons), as well as diagnose the underlying issue and help manage it for him.  Once I figured that out, I could help him identify his feelings:  "Darling, you're irritated because you didn't have enough to eat at lunch, did you?  Here, let me make you a snack (something with protein in it)."  And who doesn't like it when someone brings them (or packs them) a yummy snack?  If he's going to be alone at home, usually I'll prepare something he can reheat or grab and go, and I'll point it out to him before I leave.

There have been a couple of other areas where I help "manage" his environment.  One is being supportive of exercise, and trying to ensure he keeps a regular schedule.  I'll notice that he hasn't exercised, and if that happens, I'll say something like, "Why don't you go enjoy XYZ tonight?  You haven't done that lately."  Or if he has an injury, I'll do my best to propose an alternative, like, "Let's go into town for a walk tomorrow afternoon, we need a change of scenery."  I guess I'm saying that he often won't organize something on his own, but he'll join me if I propose something I know he'll enjoy, and in the process, I can help manage his energy.

Another area I try to facilitate is socialization.  Once again, I'll propose social encounters that I think my husband will enjoy, and I'll enjoy them too because we get to be together.  A simple, "Let's go check out XYZ this weekend, wouldn't that be nice?" can be enough.

[Ravenous Reader]

Pook, thank you for your thoughtful responses with practical analogies and wise, perception-shifting examples. I also appreciate your kind compliments. We who are part of the BPD Family are blessed indeed to be able to encourage and be encouraged here. Thank you again!

[Ravenous Reader]

Hi, CC43!
I think perhaps our husbands have some similarities, and definitely some differences! The health issues are similar in that my husband is stubborn about NOT wanting to go to a doctor AT ALL. However, long ago, when it was discovered I had high blood pressure (at a gynecologist appointment very early in our marriage), I was able to bargain with him, "If you won't go to the doctor, I won't, either." (Luckily I was successful back then, in spite of my manipulative approach to handling our healthcare, to convince him to go along with it.) We both still regularly see a doctor for wellness check-ups & med refills for high blood pressure & high cholesterol-for him-that is not well-managed with diet alone. He does occasionally fume & fuss about not wanting to go to the doctor, and will criticize everything they say/do, and sometimes threatens to NOT go, but so far he still goes.)

As far as managing his environment, I'm glad that is working for you. I know without a doubt I am dealing with "hangry" behavior at times, but when he makes up his mind he doesn't want to eat, it's not gonna happen, no matter who prepares it & no matter how tasty it might be. He does NOT eat breakfast during the workweek (hardly ever) & in the past couple of years he's decided its just better to starve all day long & then eat a big supper late at night. I'll have cheese and crackers ready after work/prior to supper, and he will refuse to eat it, saying, "I'm going to hold off until supper." (or peanut butter & apple slices, or a couple of boiled eggs, tortilla chips & bean dip/salsa, whatever; it doesn't matter--he's not touching it if he's made up his mind that "it's not time to eat" yet)

It's very strange to me--it's sometimes almost as if he won't "allow" himself to eat until ALL of his internal demands upon himself are completed--tinker with lawnmower, feed/play with dog, talk to mom on phone, play game on phone, take a shower, and THEN eat supper..(substitute various chores for the lawnmower tinkering on any given night...)

He prefers to eat really late (in my opinion)--between 9 and 10 p.m. I cannot count the number of evenings I am in the kitchen cleaning up at 9:30 or 10 p.m. after he's finally finished eating & snacking, even though we'll both be up at 5 a.m. the next day for work! Leaving behind a messy counter, sink, or floor in the kitchen doesn't bother him in the slightest, so I've decided since I'm the one who wants to be greeted with a clean kitchen in the mornings, I'll be the one to handle the mess no matter how late it gets. (I want to work on asking for more help with this in the future; not anytime soon, though.)

The exercise has been an off-and-on thing for both of us...I have tended to go walking for health and stress relief, with a bit of yoga most days. He tried walking and enjoyed it for a couple of weeks, and then life got busy and it's been a while since he's been willing to try it again. When we go out for "date night," to one particular restaurant in a county near us, he always jokes, "Oh no! You're going to force me to go on a death march!" (because after eating, I enjoy strolling down main street to look at the little shops--that are CLOSED, so no money is being spent, just energy) He usually tags along, but it is getting more difficult to convince him to enjoy many things lately. He has been numbing himself pretty frequently lately, and that numbs not only the negative emotions but also any joy.

We both need to adopt healthier work/life balances, because we don't have much time/energy left each day after working! It's truly work, eat, sleep, repeat for most days (& a barely restorative weekend) before repeating the cycle all over again.

Areas for growth abound! ;)

[CC43]

Oh boy, I recognize that routine.  Of course your husband isn't hungry in mornings, because he ate a huge meal and snacked late at night.  My husband used to do the same thing, and then suffer with acid reflux all night!  It was a cycle of poor sleep plus hangriness all afternoon.  And I know how hard it is to work all day, come home and make dinner, and then have to wait until late in the evening to clean it up (or worse, leave the mess and then deal with it at 5 am).  I HATED dealing with dishes at 5 am, because I would be dressed in my work clothes and trying to hurry out the door to beat the traffic.

I'm not sure how to deal with this, but I'm convinced that the habits can contribute to hangriness and irritability.  My solution was to prepare meals for my husband and get him on a better schedule, by eating more protein and more calories earlier in the day, and having lighter dinners, earlier in the evening, so he had some time to digest and wind down before bed.  Today, acid reflux isn't a problem for him anymore!  Enlisting his help in doing the dishes didn't get us anywhere, because his idea of doing dishes is playing jenga in the sink.  I'm not sure how to advise here, except maybe to offer less food at dinner so that he's hungry for breakfast in the morning.  But if he snacks all evening, that might not work.  Might you stop buying his favorite snacks?  Fortunately, my husband is amenable to eating what I present to him, even when he's very busy and running around.  Sometimes I'll pack him something to go, and he's pretty good about finding five or ten minutes to eat breakfast and lunch.  When he's had his fill with regular meals, his need for snacks diminishes. 

I understand this comment isn't really about BPD, but by the same token, healthy habits can reduce stress and irritability, which can go some way in managing BPD triggers.

[Ravenous Reader]

CC43,
Thanks for sharing what has worked (and not worked) for you. It is amazingly helpful to read about "twins" sometimes (regarding behavior)--for whatever reason, it is comforting to know/find out that others are experiencing similar issues with loved ones.

I wish I could just "stop buying his favorite snacks," but we BOTH contribute to what gets brought into the house. He often stops by Dollar General on his way home to "buy a pack of cigarettes" and much more than cigarettes comes home with him sometimes! Right now we have cheese dips and tortilla chips and popsicles and even ice cream (3 different pints) tempting us both (purchased this past Monday). There are kiwis and cherries available at the moment, but in moments of weakness, ice cream can call more loudly than fruit! Lol

I recently made sure we had some berries and grapes "available" in the fridge, and then I realized/remembered...If it's not front & center and/or extremely EASY to find, it may as well be invisible. For example, I'd placed the bag of grapes in the crisper drawer. Now, I don't mind grabbing the bag, pulling off a branch (sprig?) of grapes, putting the bag back in the fridge, washing the grapes, blotting them dry, and then enjoying them. For me, that's part of the snacking process--it slows me down so I can make sure I really want/need to eat at that moment. However, I realized he was forgetting the grapes were even available because when he opened the fridge (to get water--thankfully we've both kicked our fiendish soda habits) he never "saw" them! So, I washed and dried ALL the grapes and put them in an easy-to-see and easy-to-reach container, front & center on the top shelf, and lo and behold, he ate more grapes! He never did actually pull the container out and get a serving of grapes to really eat & enjoy; he just grabbed a handful as he happened to notice, "Oh! We have grapes!" I also served them alongside an omelet & he enjoyed them. As far as the berries go, it's best to wait to wash strawberries immediately prior to eating them, so I just frequently offered, "Would you like some strawberries? I don't mind washing and slicing a few for myself, and I'll be glad to do that for you, too!" He took me up on the offer a few times, but had I not done that, it's unlikely he would've remembered we had them & it's VERY unlikely he would've washed them if he did decide to eat them--he says it's "no big deal" to eat unwashed produce!

You're right that this is not necessarily BPD behavior stuff, but setting up habits/environmental cues can help tremendously in anyone's life, not just people with personality disorders. We're dancing the dance, with some steps forward, and some steps backward. I'm just thankful (for today) that we are still dancing together. ❤️

[CC43]

OMG, I do the same thing.  If I wash, dry and section grapes into "serving sizes" and put them in a glass bowl in the fridge, they will get eaten.  If they are in the crisper, they might as well be invisible.  My husband loves Coca Cola, but if I make a batch of unsweetened iced tea, guess what:  he'll grab the iced tea half the time, which is healthier and cheaper.  When we're busy, I'll buy a package of those Babybel Edam cheeses, a favorite snack in our house, probably because they are so easy to grab.  Other relatively easy, relatively healthy snacks include hummus, unsalted nuts and dried fruits (e.g. apricots, prunes).  Any of those are better than chips.  The key question is, are they as easy to grab as chips?  When it comes to berries and other fruits, if I wash/prep them and put them on my husband's plate at breakfast, he'll happily eat them, but I doubt he'd ever get fruit out of the fridge for himself, unless it's ready to go and in the glass bowl.  So I guess my point is, if I do the preparation, and if I keep the fridge and cupboards stocked with healthier options, my husband will eat better overall.  It's easier to make a healthy choice when the healthy choice is easy, thanks to a little preparation and thoughtful presentation.

Good luck.