My wife is refusing to let my mother visit or see the grandchildren…

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Posted before finishing

You have invested a lot in the marriage and you have seen the results of that investment. The bettering board proposes this as a first attempt and perhaps in some milder cases, the situation improves enough to be manageable. As FD said, it is a continuous reassessment.

At some point, it's possible to look at the results of efforts and see how much they have helped. If the person is more severely affected and the behaviors aren't tolerable, it may be that the relationship isn't workable or has reached the limits of workable. Each person has to decide what that means for them.

[Notwendy]

Posted before finishing

You have invested a lot in the marriage and you have seen the results of that investment. The bettering board proposes this as a first attempt and perhaps in some milder cases, the situation improves enough to be manageable. As FD said, it is a continuous reassessment.

At some point, it's possible to look at the results of efforts and see how much they have helped. If the person is more severely affected and the behaviors aren't tolerable, it may be that the relationship isn't workable or has reached the limits of workable. Each person has to decide what that means for them.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I am working and my wife is not. She is due to start college next week though. ...

Careful with this; college could be an excuse to avoid work, and a very expensive one for you if you're getting stuck with the costs of her college education on top of all your household expenses.  I've seen people in my life stretch college or graduate school out for years and yet when they graduate they're STILL nothing but a burden on someone else, but now with the added "bonus" of all the debt they accrued while in school. 

Your situation is as complicated as any other with young kids involved, and while it may seem overwhelming to think of a way to separate and make it work, note that you don't have to; a court typically does that.  I think this is why seeing an attorney for a consultation is so worth it.  They can explain to you the local rules and the likely outcome of your case.  This does wonders for your peace of mind & takes away the scariness of the threats around divorce pwBPD love to make. 

At least where I live, the standard divorce outcome was not too bad & it was helpful to have seen an attorney and gotten this advice b/c what my then-BPD-wife was telling me what would happen in a divorce amounted to a fantasy world of what she wanted to happen not what the law would determine. 

You don't have to figure it all out at once; break it into steps and figure those out in turn.  Get legal advice, explore living options for the separation, etc. get your own bank account separate from the soon-to-be-ex's, etc. 

And at the same time, preparing for divorce doesn't mean you have to go through with it.   You can work on bettering the relationship for as long as it lasts.  And if things do improve and you're content enough to stay, then you can stay!  Consider preparing for the divorce as an insurance policy though, insurance against ensuring that you're not trapped in an unhealthy or unsafe situation simply because you don't know how to get out. 

Just be mindful that your preparations remain secret! 

[ForeverDad]

Just be mindful that your preparations remain secret!

This is where I often step up and remind our members that we all, each of us, have rights to our privacy and confidentiality.  That includes our future options and future decisions.  It's not being mean, it's being wise and smart.

How so?  Sharing too much information can - and will - be used against us.  That's just the nature of an acting-out disorder such as BPD.  If sharing too much information beyond typical necessary parenting matters has a potential to expose us to being sabotaged now or in the future, then wisdom dictates that we avoid divulging sensitive information, either when being manipulated or by guilting or by interrogations.

It may sounds strange to put it that bluntly, but many here sabotaged themselves by sharing too much information.  I explain this so you are forewarned and prepared.

On a related thought, if she has sought to finance college by having you co-sign loans, what that would mean is that if she never repaid them, then you'd be responsible to repay them.  From a practical perspective - for yourself and for the parenting of your children - do try to limit your financial exposure since presently you are not confident your marriage has a solid future.  For example, if she seek for your to guarantee a loan for her them you could limit your agreement to one year increments.  Or that doing so would require her to acquiesce to grandmother contact?  (In other words, you give a little and she gives a little.)

[thankful person]

Thank you all, I am considering very carefully everything that has been said on here. I am stuck on leaving the playground so the bully doesn’t win.. isn’t that what the bully wanted? I don’t know honestly. I had a lot of trouble with bullies. I need to remember that it seems my wife does need me with her ringing three times a day for the duration of my availability, and saying she can’t put the kids to bed without my help.(I also get them up in the morning).

PW, I understand your concerns. The government is loaning the money to put w through college, I am not responsible for that. I am hoping that the experience will help with her mental health. I know that pwbpd do not just “get better” especially without therapy. But my wife has sat on the sofa breast feeding for 6 years!!! She needs to get out and gain some confidence. I really want this for her. She has no qualifications and no friends. I’m rooting for her partly because she’s that crazy she might even change her mind about my Mum once she’s feeling happier.

I will try and get some legal advice in the little free time I have. I’ll try to go against my instinct to be honest and keep my wife informed at every step. I don’t want to serve her divorce papers and be like, “I really didn’t want to do this, I just want the children to see Granny!” It sounds ridiculous but it’s how I feel…

[Notwendy]

Thank you all, I am considering very carefully everything that has been said on here. I am stuck on leaving the playground so the bully doesn’t win.. isn’t that what the bully wanted? I don’t know honestly. I had a lot of trouble with bullies. I need to remember that it seems my wife does need me with her ringing three times a day for the duration of my availability, and saying she can’t put the kids to bed without my help.(I also get them up in the morning).

,

This is just a guess- as I can't predict what your wife wants or will do, but in my situation, what the "bully" wanted was control, not leaving. Like your wife, she could not have managed on her own. She was dependent on my father as your wife is on you.

This was a paradox. Dad earned the money, he was the more stable parent and yet, BPD mother seemed to be in control.

If the main reason is fear of your wife leaving you, it's possible that this fear is greater than what may actually happen.

For my father, there was an additional fear that could and did happen and it was the extreme reactions of my mother if people didn't go along with her.

Your wish- for your mother to see your children without rocking the boat in your marriage may not be realistic. It's weighing two consequences- one being your mother doesn't see the kids, or your wife reacts in a difficult way. These are two difficult choices.

Don't hold me to this- it's a wild guess- but I don't think your wife can manage on her own. She either may not actually leave you but if she did- I don't think it would last long. I don't think likely she'd find someone else willing to take on your role for her and the kids. Possible maybe but not so easy to do.

I'm not suggesting you bring up leaving as leverage. That isn't a helpful thing to do. However, if she threatens leaving, it might not have the leverage you fear it does.

BPD mother would bring up divorce, but I don't think she could have managed doing that.

[Notwendy]

I know that pwbpd do not just “get better” especially without therapy. But my wife has sat on the sofa breast feeding for 6 years!!! She needs to get out and gain some confidence. I really want this for her. She has no qualifications and no friends. I’m rooting for her partly because she’s that crazy she might even change her mind about my Mum once she’s feeling happier.

Another poster called this "hopium" "I know that-----but (another reason for the behavior)

and then the "she might" change her mind.

IMHO, it's this hope that if you do X, or Y happens- then that will be what leads to change. But her issues are not external. Going to school, a new house, a vacation- these are external things. They don't lead to internal changes.

So when does one not have hope? I think that is a difficult one. I think it varies. I saw this too in my own family- the hope placed on "this vacation is what we need", this ___________is what we need.

We rooted for BPD mother to have some interest and focus of her own too. She would start something but it didn't stick. She would do a volunteer job. We cheered her on. She got a certificate degree at a community college. Got almost all A's. But didn't pursue the occupation she seemed interested in doing.

She didn't have to work. Dad provided, but what we wanted for her was a focus, a sense of accomplishment. I don't know what she did all day when we were in school. We felt that not having a sense of purpose wasn't good for her but we couldn't make this happen for her.

Staying married- as you choose to do, to someone who is focused on her wants, her needs, and you have other ideas or needs- there's constant conflict. You care about your mother but you have connected your life to someone who doesn't care about her, or your relationship with her. This isn't a marriage where there's mutual consideration.

[PeteWitsend]

...

BPD mother would bring up divorce, but I don't think she could have managed doing that.

I think they do this when they aren't themselves concerned it's a possibility.  Threats of divorce become just another "tool" in the toolbox of techniques for controlling their partner and dominating the relationship for their own ends. 

The accounts here of married BPD-partners leaving and filing for divorce are rare - I can't recall any for sure.  Of the one I'm thinking of, the BPD-partner was the primary breadwinner, but I don't remember if they were actually the one who filed.  Regardless, I don't recall ever reading an acocunt here where a financially dependent BPD-spouse initiated the split and filed for divorce. 

I do recall accounts of BPD-partners leaving, but this is most often in the case of short-term relationships, where the BPD-partner was cheating and jumping for a new relationship that they  perceived as more beneficial for them.

Like you said, it would be hard for @thankful_person's spouse to find a replacement for her, given that people tend not to want to step (no pun intended) into all the responsibility of being a step parent, on top of all the other baggage a pwBPD comes with.  But it could happen. 

In my own case, BPDxw and I nearly split a year before we actually did.  We both saw attorneys, then she begged me to reconsider and for some reason I did.  But by this point I knew that I was just kicking the can down the road, and it was only a matter of time before we divorced.

In any event, it seemed like BPDxw felt more secure after that, and felt that I wouldn't ever leave her.  After that point in time, she started to use threats of divorce more frequently.  I think in her head I was now afraid to leave her, or needed her or whatever.  In the end when I was ready to leave and we had another blow up, she was actually the one who said "we're getting divorced then" in response to me refusing to take responsibility for her behavior in what was our last fight as a married couple.  She seemed pretty upset when she realized it was actually happening!  And of course, when she'd mention it to other people, most often she said that I left her because I didn't want to be a father anymore.  No mention of the fact that she was the one who laid that marker down.   

[Notwendy]

I think they do this when they aren't themselves concerned it's a possibility.  Threats of divorce become just another "tool" in the toolbox of techniques for controlling their partner and dominating the relationship for their own ends. 

It may be that this conflict with your kids seeing your mother is emotional leverage for your wife.

If my BPD mother knew I was attached to or emotionally invested in something/someone, that is what she decided to control.

As a child, it was a favorite toy, or a pet.

As an adult, it was my relationships with people, especially my father. BPD mother controlled his relationship with me.

It's also likely she controlled his relationship with his family. We were allowed to spend time with them, but when we were older and could be dropped off to visit. BPD mother didn't come with us.

In this context, divorce threats were just threats, leverage. She didn't follow through with them. She didn't want anyone to "leave the playground" - she wanted control.

The situation with your mother probably has less to do with what your mother does or doesn't do and that, you are highly invested in this. Your wife's ability to control this is a source validation for her. That it is also hurtful to others may not even occur to her or is less of a consideration.

In this context, reasoning, fairness, discussions may not convince her. This isn't a rational need. I think this needs to be a non negotiable. Just plan it and tell her it's happening (not too soon in advance so the reaction doesn't drag out). Probably best for mother to come, stay in a hotel, and you meet her there with the kids. Or you pack them up and go to your mother's. Without your wife. Don't bring your mother to your house. She probably doesn't want to be around your wife anyway.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, absolutely correct, yes it is about having control over things that are important to me. For this reason I’ve always pretended I’m not bothered about things, but obviously I can’t do that any more with this because it isn’t working.

You are right to suggest this rather than taking steps to divorce. I have made some peace with the fact this could lead to divorce but maybe you’re right and that’s not what she wants. Because all these years of me not being good enough.. she hasn’t found anyone else. She can’t even seem to hold down a friendship.

I know it is never a good time, however this is the worst time because my wife has just started college and I am highly invested in her remaining stable during these very beginning stages. I want her to get a qualification and a career. I know, it’s not my responsibility to do anything about that, or even to have those codependent thoughts, but I think it will be good for her mental health. It’s also not a good time for Mum anyway what with dealing with all Dad’s stuff and paperwork, also she’d rather travel in spring when the weather is better. I think I’ll try and go for early next year. I’ll create a new topic in bettering board in the future, as I have a ton of thoughts and questions but I’m not ready to initiate anything like this just yet.

Thank you so much, as always.

[Sluggo]

Thankful,

I went 3 yrs without talking to my family to "help" my marriage.  My final wakeup was I "allowed" to only visit my dad, who was in hospice, with her present in the room.  I spent 10 minutes with him with her present.  He passed away 2 weeks afterwards. 

After his funeral, dbpdwife was upset that my siblings were there and that I talked with them.  The ride home argument was about her, and not that I just lost my Dad.  I realized then, I given away all my ability to make my decisions in my life.  I gave them to her. 

I left 2 weeks later and had 7 kids.   I became a much better dad as I realized I "allowed" her to dictate my parenting also when we were married. 

It took about 5 years post divorce to fully get out of the fog.  It has been 9 yrs now but I still work on some of my behaviors (reading and therapy) which led me to get to that level dysfunction in my marriage. 

It is hard.  Sorry you are going through this. 

Sluggo

[thankful person]

Thanks for sharing that Sluggo, your ex sounds comparable to my wife.

I am ashamed of how I have treated my family of origin, but I’m doing my best in very difficult circumstances as our four kids are 10mths, 2 years, 4 years and 5 years.

When my Dad was dying recently, dbpdw asked that if I took a day off work to do some housework and build us a swimming pool then after that she would be ok with me going to visit him (6 hour drive alone as she had all the kids to take care of). I did all that and told Mum I was coming, then bpdw somehow bullied me out of going saying she needed help with the kids at bedtime. And how selfish I was to just take off etc. 24 hours later her Dad was driving on his way to help out so I could go, but my Dad died before I left home.. I drove through the night to see my family and Dad’s body, arriving at 2am, bed at 3am, then back on the road at 1pm the next day to be back for the kids’ bedtime.

On the day of Dad’s funeral, I did the same, arriving 2am to then leave less than 12 hours later. Bpdw was jealous of my spending time with my family that day, I did not text her other than a couple of times during the wake. I knew she’d be angry and upset or whatever tf. I didn’t care and actually it was a really good occasion to see everyone. On the way home, bpdw rang me and screamed at me for what felt like the whole six hours home.

I will say this.. and publish it here.. I may only say it once.. I hate her.

[ForeverDad]

I will start by saying this was after I'd separated and I don't recall how far I was into the divorce.  I was on the road and my ex was lecturing me.  Well, really ranting and raging.  Basically unlimited venting.  I finally said I had to hang up and I did.  Oh my, she called right back and told me I couldn't hang up on her.  I tried to reason with her that she always would hang up on me.  Yes, it was the old "rules for me and not for thee".  This was a watershed moment for me, after years of passively suffering verbal abuse, I'd found another boundary for self-protection... I too can decide when to end a call.

You have that right too.  However, there is a price, especially now when tensions are high.  Since you're still in the relationship, you have to ponder where - and when - to set new boundaries since any change from the prior status quo will almost surely trigger overreactions.  Extinction bursts - pressure to return to the prior failed patterns - are predictable and so when pondering a new and improved boundary you also need to ponder how to handle the triggered overreactions.

[thankful person]

Thanks Forever Dad,

It’s funny you mention this, because I specifically discovered this during the breakdown of my relationship with my ex, I was still living with him for several months and he still wanted to be with me but I was in love with bpdw. I started saying no to him, just little things like, “no I don’t want to watch Game of thrones with you..” You would think, not a big deal, except he was somewhat controlling and would tell me he wanted me to watch it with him even though I didn’t want to: and I always did what he said. On another occasion he wanted us to go out on our motorcycles, my shoulder was injured so I couldn’t ride my Harley but he wanted me to ride his sports bike, and I said to him, “No. I don’t have to do what you say anymore.” And I thought that I would never have to do what another person said. He used to make me go scuba diving, which I also didn’t like, and on my first holiday with bpdw she went scuba diving on her own because I didn’t want to. She is still angry about that, though at the time she loved playing the wonderful new partner who didn’t make me do things I didn’t want to. But now she goes on about how he was obviously more important to me because I did what he wanted or whatever.

Bpdw has gone through many extinction bursts over the past few years, and I have taken much of the power back. I did tackle the phone call thing under Salty Dawg’s guidance back in 2023. But it was more the fact that w was being verbally abusive to me during the calls. I managed to quash this behaviour by refusing to talk to her. However now, she just rings me mostly because she is bored and lonely, and says things like, why wouldn’t you want to talk to me? I find this harder to deal with than saying I won’t talk to you if you’re just calling to criticise me. The irony here is that now w is at college, she spends lunch time with her new friends.. and barely texts or calls me and of course I’m happy with this because I don’t want to talk to her.

I have multiple concerns over the proposed plan to even invite Mum to a hotel in our town. It is about the kids and the fact w will likely physically try to stop me taking them and I’m concerned whether it could even go to plan (even if she didn’t get to see all of them), and the effect her behaviour will have on the kids. I’m not scared of the extinction bursts I’m just trying to protect them and doing what I can to keep her behaving sane seems to help. As I said I’ll start a topic on the other board when I’m ready to put this plan into place.

[Notwendy]

I’m not scared of the extinction bursts I’m just trying to protect them and doing what I can to keep her behaving sane seems to help. As I said I’ll start a topic on the other board when I’m ready to put this plan into place.

The kids are observing both of you and learning from you. They will also see you appeasing her, not rocking the boat. For a child growing up in this dynamic, they see this as "normal" behavior. This actually sets them up to repeat this behavior with partners, co-workers and employers later when they are adults.

Although thankfully, I didn't come out of this dynamic with BPD behaviors or other large issues, I adopted these behaviors and it did cause issues. By then of course, they were my issues to work on. It's not helpful to blame parents but it does help to look at the family of origin dynamics in terms of understanding them. I had two role models. I thought Dad was the "normal" one but he also enabled, and agreed to things my mother wanted even if he didn't agree himself.

The dysregulations, the escalations - we eventually saw them all. It's impossible to stop them all, even with appeasement. If your fear of them seeing this keeps you from inviting your mother, then, well it works for your wife, it reinforces them.

BPD mother would even threaten "if you don't do this, I will cause a scene" and we all knew what that meant. The other code word was "mother is in a mood".

What we saw was horrible but what also was horrible was how BPD mother treated my father some times and that he put up with it.

[thankful person]

What we saw was horrible but what also was horrible was how BPD mother treated my father some times and that he put up with it.

Thanks for this Not Wendy. I am absolutely humbled to know you and I realise that you are here helping others in a way your father was unable to get such advice during your childhood. I don’t know whether this marriage is the best way for our kids to grow up. But I want to get this right on my part, and I want you to know that if my kids understood then they would thank you too. There have been many improvements over the past few years and so much of it I have learnt from you. I will do better and I will never stop trying. I will 100% be seeking further advice on this and part of it will be what to say to Mum about the situation, but I promise I’m not copping out when I say there’s no way my Mum wants to deal with a long journey followed by any such nonsense at this point in time.

[Notwendy]

Thank you for your kind words. It helps to know I have helped others. I hope this will work out for your kids and your mother somehow. I also understand how your mother doesn't want to deal with this after a long trip too.

[PeteWitsend]

...
BPD mother would even threaten "if you don't do this, I will cause a scene" and we all knew what that meant.
...

Near the end of my marriage, I noticed BPDxw started doing this more, i.e. making our fights public, instead of waiting until we were in private and then raking me over the coals for something I did or said (or really her version of what happened). 

I wonder if they just have no sense of shame?  or that they convince themselves that random bystanders take their side and sympathize with them?

From the reactions I could see, other people got shocked and scared... they didn't think "oh boy, he must've really screwed up!" and appear to take her side.  they looked worried and tried to move away from us.  I felt bad for them; it was almost like she was using them to get what she wanted, and they didn't want anything to do with some random couple's fight. 

[PeteWitsend]

... I don’t know whether this marriage is the best way for our kids to grow up. But I want to get this right on my part, and I want you to know that if my kids understood then they would thank you too. ...

One additional piece of advice: do what you can, but don't beat yourself up for not handling a situation perfectly, or how you would have with the benefit of hindsight. 

pwBPD put us in impossible situations.  And they've had years of "practice" before they meet us, in terms of emotionally and verbally manipulating people, so we have to learn to navigate the waters as we go. 

Kids are more resilient than we expect.  Do your best to model good behavior, and - all things being equal - they'll see through the pwBPD's nonsense and recognize who is really holding things together, and who is putting their emotional baggage ahead of everyone's practical needs.  You may not always see it, but raising kids is a years long process.

[ForeverDad]

One additional piece of advice: do what you can, but don't beat yourself up for not handling a situation perfectly, or how you would have with the benefit of hindsight.

We're not at our best in the midst of a beatdown.  So many times I would be ruminating for hours or even into the night and would eventually come up - too late - with a better reply.  I guess that's what the word hindsight means.

I had a two year divorce, the last step before the trial was scheduled was a Settlement Conference in my lawyer's conference room.  I recall beforehand, while in my lawyer's office, her lawyer came in, sat down and started talking, just the 3 of us.  One of the things he said was that he himself was divorced and he had alternate weekends (same as what I then had during the temporary order).  He suggested that as something to agree with.  I said, "Sure, sounds good to me but I don't think Ms FD wants alternate weekends."   He was quiet after that.

By the way, that was one of the few times in my life where I had a wonderful answer at the right time.  I savored the moment.

[thankful person]

Today my wife went to college leaving me alone with our baby and I video called my Mum, which had expressly been forgiven. I remembered everything I’ve learnt here, “Do. Do not ask permission. Do not ask if it’s ok. There’s no need to even tell her.” Although it’s been suggested to me that I should have a boundary around my wife looking at my phone… I don’t mins her looking at my phone because it’s often how she discovers I have disobeyed her. And she did indeed see the call. Last time she accepted it without much comment but blew up over it the next day. I’m very very glad I did it last time because it turned out being the only time my Dad got to “meet” the baby. And I’m very glad I did it today. I intend to continue taking the power back.