How to enforce boundaries when living together ???

[SuperDaddy]

Hi all !

I have read a lot about boundaries, but I got to the conclusion that they can't work in a marital setting, especially when you have kids and you work from home. Because you, your kids, and your personal stuff are always there, available for whatever type of abuse your partner wants to engage in. So the BPD partner, while still angry, may just take pleasure in walking all over you, and that may keep going for many days until their anger finally subsides.

Let's review a basic definition of how to enforce boundaries:

To enforce boundaries, you must clearly define your limits, communicate them directly and calmly using "I" statements, and then consistently follow through with actions (consequences) when they're crossed, showing you mean it through your behavior, not just words, by disengaging, changing the subject, or limiting contact if necessary, to teach others how to treat you respectfully.

You can see how the definition above won't work, right? I mean, you're in the same house, sharing resources, and coparenting the kids, so contact is unavoidable. You can completely disengage from the partner during the raging out, but that will most likely ensure that they will keep dysregulated for a long time. Because they want a resolution of something, even if it's unclear to you what they want.

So I think the literature is weak, as it focuses too much on the communication but not on the enforcement and ignores the consequences, which is the most important part. Because what makes the boundary work are the consequences, right?

So let me ask a practical question. Let's suppose my wife has severely violated my boundary. She has screamed badmouthing me while keeping our door open, making sure neighbors from all other apartments will hear her. But this is part of an abusive behavior that only happens when she is dysregulated, so it's pointless to talk it out at the moment. I need to wait for her to switch into a normal temper before even attempting to talk about it. More than that, I need to wait until she is clearly trying to reconnect with me.

Finally, I succeed in talking to her about it. Because of her very rigid thoughts, she remains silent while I talk, showing some contempt. I'm ok with her silence, because I know she will defend her behavior if she talks. So she is just avoiding a peacebreaker. But then, I have to communicate to her the consequence. What should it be?

The only thing that crosses my mind is to step back from the intimate relationship (not cuddle together). But if that has already been done, then the next consequence might be to not touch her. If that's also already implemented, then perhaps not even talk to her like friends. And if that is still not enough, then it's time for separation and probably moving out.

Is that how we are supposed to make the BPD partners respect our boundaries?

If yes, then once the boundary is in place, how long should it last? Should it have a predetermined duration, such as one month? Should it last forever if the boundary violation keeps happening?

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[Pook075]

Is that how we are supposed to make the BPD partners respect our boundaries?

If yes, then once the boundary is in place, how long should it last? Should it have a predetermined duration, such as one month? Should it last forever if the boundary violation keeps happening?

A boundary is for you, made by you, and has nothing to do with anyone else.

For instance, I hate anchovies.  You and I are at dinner and you say, "Try the anchovies."  I say no thanks.  You try to persuade me in a variety of ways, but the bottom line is that I have already chosen before the conversation even started.  I'm doing the thing that's best for me.

A boundary within your home could be to stop arguing completely.  If your spouse begins to yell, step one should always be to try calming her down.  She's dysregulated and her words don't necessarily match her feelings, so you show compassion and understanding instead of arguing back.

Let's say that doesn't work.  Step two would be to withdraw.  This is just like the anchovies...I'm not doing it no matter what...so if I can't de-escalate the situation with words, I'll do it with action.  Maybe I go for a walk around the neighborhood, maybe I say I'm going to visit family for a few days; I'll do whatever I have to do in order to avoid a direct confrontation.  Again though, just like in step one I'm doing it with compassion and patience.

Let's say that doesn't work either and the situation turns violent as I try to leave.  Now I'm looking for outside intervention, possibly even calling 9-1-1 if necessary to seek an involuntary hold for a psych evaluation.  Even if things go this far though, I'm still doing everything I can with love and empathy. 

In other words, this isn't a punishment, it's a compassionate response to help someone that's suffering from mental illness.

As you enforce boundaries over time, it becomes very clear and predictable that arguing, threats, and violence will lead to very predictable results.  One of two things will happen at that point; the relationship fails or the pattern of communication changes in positive ways. 

Again though, and I can't say this enough, BPD dysfunction stems from the fear of abandonment.  Showing love and compassion while strengthening the relationship builds trust and allows the person to calm down and refocus.  That should always be the goal, to actually help them through loving them.

[Rowdy]

This is a very difficult one. With a pwBPD all logic and reason goes out the window. To use your example of shouting, I had kind of forgotten the extent of it in my household, but looking back there was a lot of shouting on my ex’s behalf.

During the first decade of our relationship, where we lived our neighbours were very loud and always shouting, so to me it wasn’t so much of an issue if my wife raised her voice. I probably shouted back in response.

During the next half of our relationship we had moved to a quieter area, and our neighbours were much quieter.
This led to me having a boundary that I’d not had before, about the shouting. She had a habit that used to annoy me, where she would leave the room I was in, go upstairs even, and continue to try and have a conversation with me that would ultimately lead to her shouting around the house.

Now, many times this wasn’t her getting dysregulated and blowing up shouting and screaming, it was just her trying to continue a conversation. If I wasn’t able to follow her around the house, or just plain couldn’t be bothered to do so, when she came back in the room I was in I would calmly explain that I will not shout from downstairs to her while she is upstairs.

This went on for a decade or more, but no matter how calmly I would explain I am not shouting, do you think she ever took that on board? I never had or enforced many boundaries but that was one of them, but made no difference to her whatsoever.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

Do you have the experience that I described in my original post? It doesn't look like you do. I checked your very first message, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your former wife was not trying to destroy your life, and instead she withdrew and ran away, right? I think your advice may fit well with your experience but not mine. And there are some things that I disagree with.

A boundary will never be about you only. Because it will always affect your partner in some way. And it must, because otherwise it won't be effective at all. Let me give an example. You want to leave the chat every time she offends you. If you leave, she will feel it. So you set an AI to keep talking to her after she has left so that she doesn't feel it. The problem there is that you have allowed her to create an unrealistic expectation about your attention, and next time it will be even harder to end the conversation.

But let's suppose you'll be honest with her, so instead of using AI, you try to communicate it nicely, with compassion, hoping that she will accept it (not get too angry). That may work with most BPD wives on most occasions, but in some cases, depending on her emotional state and motives, she will be so frantic about it that she won't be listening to you at all, and you won't be able to convince her, so she will get angry anyway, and that can escalate to self-harm or husband-harm. If you are both in the same house, then it will be too easy to just jump on your back and not allow you to sleep. Do you get it?

You did not say anything about enforcing boundaries, except in the end when you talked about calling 911. But that's like outsourcing the boundary enforcement to the government. That won't be an option unless she is putting someone's life at risk and you can prove it.

Stating that "BPD dysfunction stems from the fear of abandonment" may apply to your experience, but it certainly does not apply to all. The "frantic efforts to avoid abandonment" criterion from the DSM is not even mandatory; it is optional. The core symptom is actually the emotional instability. This is why in the UK and Europe, BPD is often called Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (EUPD), which is an official term.

Anyway, my point is that the person with BPD may get triggered by any kind of "No" response that they get, depending on the interpretation that they do.

Let me give you a futile example. A couple of days ago, my wife heard the kids asking me for a coffee candy, and I gave one to each. So my wife asked me for a candy as well. I said "No", because she had been attacking me verbally for the entire day. I was not arguing back to her about anything, because I don't want the kids to hear any discussion. But still, she managed to get angry at me for saying "No". She got so angry, she got re-triggered and started it all over again.

The same happened today when she was preparing to go to therapy and asked me to put the power bank in the bag. I said "No, I have already given you the power bank just now, so you can put it in the bag", because it would be very easy for her to do it by herself, and again, she had been offending me badly since the day before. She then started lashing out again, had an anxiety crisis, and missed the therapy, which I had already paid for. All because she got a "No" to a trivial thing.

So should we just say "Yes" to everything? No, that would make us a slave and perhaps an enabler as well. What she needs is to set a boundary that she can't cross over. But I don't see how to do this when living together. Unless police and the judge are enforcing limits for her on your behalf.

Does that make sense?

[Pook075]

Hi Pook075 ,

Do you have the experience that I described in my original post? It doesn't look like you do. I checked your very first message, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your former wife was not trying to destroy your life, and instead she withdrew and ran away, right? I think your advice may fit well with your experience but not mine. And there are some things that I disagree with.

A boundary will never be about you only.

I was married to my BPD ex for 25 years and dated her about two years before that.  We also had a BPD daughter together.  My ex was violent, unstable, and extremely entitled for many of the early years of the marriage.  She also bad-mouthed me to anyone who would listen and tried her best to turn our kids against me.

Of the things I just listed, what can I personally control?

The answer is "nothing", and that's why a boundary is ONLY about me.  If my boundary is about me and her, and she responds badly, then what do I have?  Nothing.  That's why is must be only about me.

That may work with most BPD wives on most occasions, but in some cases, depending on her emotional state and motives, she will be so frantic about it that she won't be listening to you at all, and you won't be able to convince her, so she will get angry anyway, and that can escalate to self-harm or husband-harm. If you are both in the same house, then it will be too easy to just jump on your back and not allow you to sleep. Do you get it?

Okay, so she's frantic.  Let her be.  I would walk away and allow her to be frantic all on her own.  My boundary for that is simple- I don't argue, I don't take abuse.  If I try to help her calm down and it fails, I walk away.

In other words, no matter what she does, I'm focusing on my boundary for my mental health.  She can do absolutely anything she wants; the decision is hers.  She gets to decide for herself and I get to decide for me.

You did not say anything about enforcing boundaries, except in the end when you talked about calling 911. But that's like outsourcing the boundary enforcement to the government. That won't be an option unless she is putting someone's life at risk and you can prove it.

Domestic violence is real and it's enforced pretty much worldwide.  Maybe nobody goes to jail, but the point is made nonetheless.  My boundary is that I don't argue, I don't accept abuse.  If you can't respect that and you won't let me leave, then I'm dialing 9-1-1.

However, see this for what is really is though.  I say to you, "I'm not arguing."  You keep arguing.  I try to walk away.  You don't let me walk away.  I reinforce what my boundary is, I'm not arguing and I'm choosing to walk away to avoid this.  You decide to get physical, or you start breaking things, or you threaten to harm me or yourself.  That's when 9-1-1 comes in.

Because look what happened.  My boundary is "I don't argue."  Either you accept that or it escalates.  The choices are all 100% yours and they have no bearing on my personal boundaries.  I'm going to choose not to engage though because my boundary does not depend on you.

Again, if I say, "I'm not going to argue anymore....ever....", then I can stand by that.  It has nothing to do with how much someone else yells, screams, or threatens harm.

Anyway, my point is that the person with BPD may get triggered by any kind of "No" response that they get, depending on the interpretation that they do.

Again, let them get triggered.  If your kids don't eat their vegetables but demand ice cream, do you just say, "Oh well, I have to make the kids happy so the heck with the rules?"  Of course not, you teach right from wrong.  And you do the exact same thing with a BPD spouse.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

Well, boundaries, by definition, must be enforceable. That's for every context, and it remains true when you're dealing with a BPD spouse. The eyelid example we see in this board is something you can enforce (no one can prevent you from closing your eyelids). Do you agree with this basic concept?

Anyway, I think you agree that all of the interaction with the BPD spouse, as well as the lack of interaction, is part of a negotiation, right? So every smaller part of it is transactional. You may not be forcing anything directly, but you are focusing on the consequences that you bring to each behavior of hers, and your goal is not just to preserve yourself but also to have a positive influence on her behavior, right?

In your last sentence you were implying that we would teach our BPD spouse right from wrong. So you should agree that the boundary ends up being a negative consequence for her behavior. Just like when we ignore an infant that's throwing a tantrum. Right?

My original title is "How to enforce boundaries when living together?" and your reply is "by walking away". But what do you mean by that? Staying in the same house won't work because the person keeps persecuting you. Leaving the house every time is also not an option because of kids and working from home. Locking yourself in a room also won't work very well. So the only effective way to "walk away" is to move out. Now that's not a valid solution for the original problem, because when you leave, you are not living together anymore. Does that make sense?

So do you agree that when living together, chances are that you won't be able to enforce the necessary boundaries of yours anymore?

My ex was violent, unstable, and extremely entitled for many of the early years of the marriage.

Did she persecute you throughout the house? If you were back in the same situation you experienced in the past, how exactly should you have "walked away" from that?

By the way, if I lived in a huge home made of wood and drywall, I guess the acoustics would help a lot. But instead I live in an apartment with walls of brick/concrete that has only about 80 square meters. The walls do no dampening of the screams; they reflect the sound instead.

[SuperDaddy]

By the way, the very first success story of this board, written by John Galt, is the most interesting one. But in my understanding, what happened there is that his wife got threatened with losing her husband and the custody of the kids at the same time. Since she had been through institutional stays, suicide attempts, and police charges, John Galt had plenty of proof that she wasn't stable enough to take care of the kids by herself, and therefore shared custody was not a viable option, so the judge should give him full custody. And because she was fully aware of that possibility, she complied.

If my wife felt truly threatened with losing custody of the kids because of her instability, I can guarantee you that things would take a miraculous trajectory from there, like in the case of John Galt. However, the videos I have from her are not that bad. They only prove that she breaks stuff and bullies me. But she has never done self-harm and has never gotten police charges.

[Pook075]

Hi Pook075 ,

Well, boundaries, by definition, must be enforceable. That's for every context, and it remains true when you're dealing with a BPD spouse. The eyelid example we see in this board is something you can enforce (no one can prevent you from closing your eyelids). Do you agree with this basic concept?

Anyway, I think you agree that all of the interaction with the BPD spouse, as well as the lack of interaction, is part of a negotiation, right?

Marriage is give and take, so yes, you're always negotiating.  But boundaries are non-negotiable if you enforce them properly.

If you go back to my first post in this thread, I said several times to show love and compassion when your BPD spouse is dysregulated.  I think that's the whole key you're missing; this is not about punishment or gaining the upper hand. 

- You show compassion to help your spouse calm down, to avoid the fight.
- If that fails, you ask for some space for everyone to calm down.
- If that fails, you inform them that you're taking a break and will be back soon.
- If that fails, you physically leave the home for a short time.
- If that fails, you mention law enforcement or an ambulance.

But the one thing you're doing the entire time, at every step of the process, is try to calm your spouse down through love, empathy, and compassion.

Almost every argument comes down to a sense of abandonment.  That's not what they say, but it's what they feel and it's why they get so upset.  In that moment, the only goal is to help them take a breath so their mind catches up to their emotions.  You don't defend.  You don't fight back.  You don't try to get even. 

You help them weather the storm by letting them know that they're the most important thing in the moment.  And then the storm passes.

Your wife is mentally ill, so at times she struggles to regulate her feelings.  When she's scared, lonely, or depressed, things can go downhill fast.  That's why you make her feel safe, seen, and loved...that's the cure to all of this.

You might think it's impossible.  But does your wife yell at everyone?  The mail man?  The guy at the grocery store?  The neighbors?  If the answer is no to any of those people, then she can regulate her emotions when she's not unstable.  The problem comes from within the relationship.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

I see your point. You're basically stating that compassion, when skillfully used, is an effective antidote for the interpersonal relational challenges of having a BPD spouse, right? But I can't agree with that.

Love and compassion will help with any relationship and are especially helpful with a BPD loved one. It's not an antidote, though. Love helps with BPD just like money helps with health problems. Money can be used to pay for appointments, treatments, buy prescriptions, etc. But neither love nor money will guarantee a solution.

That's because not feeling loved is NOT the only source of ALL interpersonal conflict that a BPD spouse has with their partner. Any unresolved conflict will eventually lead to an internal dispute, which then may lead to the BPD spouse acting out.

The BPD partner introduces a significant amount of conflict into the relationship with their partner. In the beginning, with love and lots of energy, those conflicts can be managed. I can't say the conflicts are resolved, though, because the same type of conflict keeps popping up again over time. Add a living together, and the conflicts are multiplied, so you might lack the time and energy to fully manage them. Add kids to the mix, and then it becomes completely unmanageable.

There's when boundaries could work, if they could be enforced.

You might think it's impossible.  But does your wife yell at everyone?  The mail man?  The guy at the grocery store?  The neighbors?  If the answer is no to any of those people, then she can regulate her emotions when she's not unstable.  The problem comes from within the relationship.

- She has yelled at my BPDex multiple times. They exchanged verbal offenses and even got a bit physical. They are both jealous of me and have rivalry, but the conflict matter is the kids that I share with my ex.

- She also yells at her mother for the same very specific reason. It's because of the depreciative comments that her mother always makes about her physical appearance.

- She also lashed out at her father once because of the authoritative way he talked to her on the phone after he had been avoiding her for 2 years.

- She has also yelled at the top of her voice at a neighbor once while we lunched in the restaurant because the karaoke music was too loud and they were not turning it down.

Would you say all of that is about abandonment? No, it's not. It is about emotional instability.

My wife doesn't feel threatened with abandonment so often. She can get aggressive because of minor things that make her feel unworthy, but in the rare moments in which she did feel a real abandonment threat, she actually reacted in a very warm and kind way. I think it's the other way around. The more she feels safe and loved, the more she is likely to lash out. Simply because it's safe to do it. This is why I don't cuddle with her anymore. Every time I did it, the next day would be a nightmare.

On the other hand, if my behavior does seriously indicate that I'm completely detached, she cools off and gradually cuts off the crazy behavior. She begins by using little pull strategies, such as being nude all day or saying that she is unwell so that I take care of her. But if that doesn't work, then she completely unflips and reverts from an entitled bully into a fragile and affectionate person. So I think the real fear of abandonment does not make her aggressive; it makes her calm.

I agree that there must be love to make it work. And here there is. But maybe the problem is that I fail to enforce long-standing boundaries on my own feelings. My random displays of affection and attraction are the actual problem. And I think everyone falls into the same trap.

[Pook075]

I see your point. You're basically stating that compassion, when skillfully used, is an effective antidote for the interpersonal relational challenges of having a BPD spouse, right? But I can't agree with that.

Love and compassion will help with any relationship and are especially helpful with a BPD loved one. It's not an antidote, though. Love helps with BPD just like money helps with health problems. Money can be used to pay for appointments, treatments, buy prescriptions, etc. But neither love nor money will guarantee a solution.

My BPD daughter hated me most of her life.  She made every possible mistake as a teen and because my ex-wife was also BPD, I had to be the adult in the room.  Not that my ex couldn't make decisions, but my kid knew mom was weak and would give in, so she attacked her relentlessly.

Every argument between them would eventually end with, "Go ask your dad, I don't care."  So I had to be the bad guy, which I was fine with 100% of the time.  The kid had to learn right from wrong and therapists were adamant about standing your ground.  So I did and she hated me.

Yet every single time she was in trouble (always self-induced through bad decisions), she called me because she knew I'd show up and fight for her.

This continued throughout her teens and early 20's, until she finally got the right therapist.  And once the therapist pointed out that I always showed up, always fought her battles, my kid apologized and our relationship has been great ever since.

Because that's the whole source of instability- I called it abandonment and maybe that's not technically the right word.  But once a BPD realizes that you have their back no matter what, the dysfunction disappears.

Now, others in our family are now painted black and put through the ringer at times, but my kid and I continue to have a good relationship because of that one simple fact.  When she needs someone, dad will be there no matter what.

After our separation, my ex had painted me black and it was basically the same situation.  But over time, we moved past that to where my ex realized that I was an ally.  She's untreated and in denial, but she knows that if she reaches out I'll show up however I can.  And that ended 100% of the drama between us.


That's because not feeling loved is NOT the only source of ALL interpersonal conflict that a BPD spouse has with their partner. Any unresolved conflict will eventually lead to an internal dispute, which then may lead to the BPD spouse acting out.

My wife doesn't feel threatened with abandonment so often. She can get aggressive because of minor things that make her feel unworthy, but in the rare moments in which she did feel a real abandonment threat, she actually reacted in a very warm and kind way. I think it's the other way around. The more she feels safe and loved, the more she is likely to lash out. Simply because it's safe to do it. This is why I don't cuddle with her anymore. Every time I did it, the next day would be a nightmare.

There's two different things happening here.  First is when your wife gets aggressive over minor stuff...but that's not true.  You see the minor thing but she's seen 50 things in a disordered state that tells her you've been plotting and scheming against her.  That's the illness and that's where having her back completely changes things. 

Again, abandonment may not be a perfect word but that's what it is, she feels slighted or less than so she lashes out.

The other thing you're describing, when you're loving and she lashes out shortly thereafter, is an extension of those 50 things she's secretly mad about.  She's mad, you're loving, and she enjoys it until she has time to reflect.  Then she decides that your actions were because you're clearly guilty of whatever she's thinking and the big guns come out.

On the other hand, if my behavior does seriously indicate that I'm completely detached, she cools off and gradually cuts off the crazy behavior. She begins by using little pull strategies, such as being nude all day or saying that she is unwell so that I take care of her. But if that doesn't work, then she completely unflips and reverts from an entitled bully into a fragile and affectionate person. So I think the real fear of abandonment does not make her aggressive; it makes her calm.

Here you're actually talking about a boundary without putting a name to it.  She wants to manipulate in order to punish you, but then realizes you're pulling away so she cuts it off and reverses course.  During that time though, she's becoming dysregulated because you're distant and if you don't swoop back in....boom.

In both of these scenarios, it's a push/pull dynamic without ever fully resetting and getting back to just being there for each other.  That's the battle, finding how to do that when the wheels fly off the bus. 

With all the BPDs in my life (my ex wife's side of the family, a few other relatives), I've found that being proactive and letting them see that I have their backs no matter what diffuses all that drama and anxiousness.  Because as soon as they feel even a tiny bit slighted or crossed, things start going south quickly. 

Heck, my best friend's little sister is another BPD example.  She's cut off her entire family, all our friends growing up, etc.  Yet her and I are still cool because I communicate with her a different way and always tell her that I'm there for her, I understand why she's upset with others, etc. 

It really makes all the difference in the world and you never get to the meltdown stage.