It may be over

[maxsterling]

Here I am again… returning to this discussion board when times are rough.  Don’t know if I want advice or just someone to listen

The long and short - W decided to go on a lesbian dating site a few weeks ago.  She didn’t tell me beforehand, and when she told me I was a bit naive to what she was saying. I thought it was just another social media site for people in the LGBTQ community.  Nonetheless, W befriended a woman there, and when she told me she was going to meet this woman, I thought she was asking if it was ok to meet someone from the internet who is a lesbian.  I didn’t understand there was a mutual attraction.   W then started talking about an open marriage.  I don’t think that is something that could work for me, especially involving a pwBPD.

Anyway, she went out with this woman twice.  I see was under the impression that we agreed to keeping things platonic between them until we could tall about it further.  Of course, that didn’t happen, and I told her in T today that I felt uncomfortable.  Of course, W disregulated.

W feels i am trapping her in this marriage and forcing her to be monogamous.  All I am asking for at the moment is time to weigh pros and cons.  There is a whole lot of background here that I won’t get into right now, but Nonetheless, I don’t see what is left of our relationship if she is also seeing someone else.  I feel like at that point I am no longer getting love or attention.

If anyone has advice or experience with poly relationships, i’d be interested to hear.  But right now for me this feels like a step too far.

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[maxsterling]

I will add that I feel proud of myself for standing firm in a calm and respectable way because I usually roll over and go along with the things she wants.  I also feel good that when W disregulated in T session today, T used the same techniques people teach here for dealing with those situations.  And they didn’t work for a trained T much better that they work for me.  Just tells me that pwBPD are difficult to deal with even for professionals, and to be less hard on myself for contributing to the chaos.

[Notwendy]

Max, I think this comes down to you, your values, and boundaries.

Other people may have experience with poly relationships but what can work for one person doesn't necessarily work with others. If someone else finds that manageable, that doesn't mean you have to. From what I have heard- (and I don't have experience with this) is that a poly relationship is agreeable to all involved. However, this isn't currently a poly relationship. Your wife has entered a romantic relationship outside the marriage without you knowing.

You and your wife have been married in a monogomous relationship. She went on a dating site and didn't tell you and  began a romantic relationship with someone else. That's not being poly, it's infidelity.

IMHO, this is also a triangulation.  Likely, she got attention and that felt good and now the new person is painted "white" for now.

It's good that you didn't just give in but IMHO, more importantly- are your boundaries on this. If your value is that your marriage is monogomous- then whatever sexual orientation your wife is- she married you. Now she wants to change the terms of the marriage. If she doesn't want to keep the marriage monogomous, it's your choice whether or not to continue in this relationship.

What she's asking is to have both- you as the supportive husband and her affair partner. You aren't trapping her in the marriage and forcing her to be monogomous. You married with the intention of a monogomous relationship. She could decide to leave the marriage too- but you've been a support to her- she wants to have both.

This is not about whether or not one has tolerance or acceptance for LGBTQ. It's about crossing the line from friendship to more when someone is married and this applies to same sex and heterosexual relationships too.

A dating site is a dating site. It's not where you find just friends. If someone is in a monogomous marriage and they go on a dating site for either men or women, and enters into another relationship, this is a violation of the marriage agreement.

If I could draw on my own experience with my BPD mother, something like this would have been one of her projected "solutions" to her internal emotional distress and a new "identity" due to her poor sense of self and friend group. She didn't consider LGBTQ at the time because in her era, people were more closeted. In her era the women's movement was beginning- and so she embraced that- but more as an identity than in actions, but in general, none of her external focuses were effective as a solution to her BPD.

Although BPD mother threatened divorce from time to time, she didn't actually follow through with that. I don't know if there was infidelity or not. As to my father- he may have gotten upset about her behavior but he too, didn't follow through with a divorce. I don't know all the reasons why but I think one aspect is the push pull nature of the dynamics. There'd be a situation that was distressing like yours is now, but then, when BPD mother sensed she may have pushed too far, her behavior would settle, things would be calm again for a while and the sense of needing to do something would would be less.

The decision is actually yours Max. Is this a deal breaker for you? Or is this going to be one more wave to ride out? My guess is that the luster of the new person isn't going to be the solution your wife is seeking. She's going to realize at one point that her new paramour is human too, like you are, like everyone else is, and that all relationships can get complicated. It doesn't seem like she wants to leave the marriage.

Your part is to decide what you want to do. There's no right or wrong answer. What you can't control are your wife's feelings or actions about it. In any marriage, over time, we encounter people who we may find attractive. Our decision is what we do about it. It can happen that someone realizes they are same sex attracted years into a heterosexual marriage. Some couples work this out and for some, it can't work out. Some people remain together when there's infidelity, some don't.

Your part is to figure out your feelings and what your boundaries are.

[maxsterling]

Triangulation - didn’t think of it that way.  Yes, this is what I feel is happening, and why I feel an open relationship would not work with a pwBPD.  The two romantic partners woild never be on equal footing.  One is always white, the other black.  If she got into an argument with me, she runs to her.  And vice versa.  I don’t see how there would not be constant drama. 

It’s already happened.  She got really upset that the woman she is interested in had a date with another woman.  In other words, upset that this woman did not want to be monogamous.  I knew W was somewhat bisexual when we got married, but she hd basically told me that was in her past (the drug use part of her past).  I was trying to be empathetic to W’s confusion here, but the jealousy and double standard toward her new romantic interest was a a real eye opener. 

[Notwendy]

I knew W was somewhat bisexual when we got married, but she hd basically told me that was in her past (the drug use part of her past).  I was trying to be empathetic to W’s confusion here, but the jealousy and double standard toward her new romantic interest was a a real eye opener. 

You see now that her sexual orientation and her use of drugs are not in the past.

BPD affects all relationships. It's not a surprise that it impacts this new one too.

More importantly, you know how you feel about a third person in your relationship and can pay attention to that, because this actually is a third person in your relationship- whether it is male or female.

Take away the additional descriptors. These are not the main issue in the relationship.

At the core of this is monogomy. You can't control any one else. You can be empathetic to someone's gender confusion, and be an ally to someone who is LGBTQ and in addition, want to be in a monogomous romantic relationship. Regardless- if one person wants monogomy in a romantic relationship, and the other one doesn't- it's a problem whether it's a same sex orientation or not.

One difficult aspect of the kind of dynamics in your relationship is losing focus of your own feelings and thinking while buying into the pwBPD's emotional thinking. Your wife is not going to own her part in this situation. She will "rationalize"  it from her own victim perspective. ie, she isn't breaking the marital agreement- she will instead say you are forcing her to be monogomous and keeping her from discovering herself.

Fact is- she can do whatever she chooses, but there are consequences to actions. In a monogomous relationship, someone can stray- but the consequence may be the loss of the relationship. She wants the freedom and not the consequences. Why not? If people could do whatever they wanted with another attractive person and not have any consequences- maybe more people would do it? But that's not how a monogomous marriage usually works. There are consequences.

Truly- it's up to you to decide what your feelings are and what the consequences of your wife having outside relationships are going to be. That's a difficult situation.

[Notwendy]

To add- consequences can be of many kinds, not only divorce. One might be that the spouse would be hurt- which could deter someone from infidelity, or the financial aspect of divorce, or effect on family and children, and even the feeling of remorse, low self esteem from the act. There are many reasons people don't violate a monogomy.

One difference is that they choose not to. They don't see this as being "forced" into it. They value it and they don't wish to have consequences for it. They don't do it and don't want their spouse to do it.

Where you are possibly feeling confused is thinking your wanting monogomy in marriage is doing something wrong to your wife- like imposing this on her, not being empathetic to her wanting to explore her orientation rather than knowing your values and boundaries and choice of monogamy. There is nothing wrong with wanting a monogomous marriage.

The consequences at the moment are your feelings. You are feeling uncomfortable with what your wife wants to do. It may be that the choice of consequence becomes tolerating your discomfort rather than have your wife experience consequences of her actions.

You may want some time to weigh pros and cons, but that would be your choice to do so. She's going to do what she chooses. You don't really need to ask her for permission for you to think about this. Your thoughts and feelings are your own.

[ForeverDad]

I also feel good that when W disregulated in T session today, T used the same techniques people teach here for dealing with those situations.  And they didn’t work for a trained T much better that they work for me.  Just tells me that pwBPD are difficult to deal with even for professionals, and to be less hard on myself for contributing to the chaos.

I don't know any statistics but years ago it was often said that therapists with BPD patients often needed their own therapist.  PwBPD are not just trying patients, they're the most trying patients.

[zachira]

A decent therapist balances their case load with clients who are easier to treat and limits the number of overwhelming clients like ones with BPD so the the therapist does not burn out. Many therapists refuse to treat people with BPD. The problem with clients with BPD is they often go back and forth between liking and hating the therapist just like what occurs in close relationships that the person with BPD has. I would be suspicious of a therapist who only takes clients with BPD as the therapist could be using the clients to deal with their own struggles to manage their emotions. When I hired my last therapist, I asked her some questions about her own life. I wanted a therapist who was happily married, a good parent to her children, and around my age. She was the best therapist I ever had and did not project her own problems onto me.

[Notwendy]

I've been an opponent of appeasing and enabling- and a supporter of boundaries. One aspect of my parents' relationship that was puzzling to me was why did my father tolerate her behavior? It seemed to me that whatever she did, he just went along with it.

I gained more perspective on this in the later years of her life as I am the relative who was most involved with her elder care. (with boundaries still)

Emotionally, she seemed to be in constant turmoil, inside but to her, it appeared as a crisis- or needs, or a solution, external to her. However, by the time a reactive plan was placed, she'd be focused on something else. This was similar to how she'd seemingly always been- it was needing some new thing, some new "identity" or focus. These were external "reasons" for her emotions-  something besides her own feelings. We might react, to fix the issue- but it wasn't the solution.

Where this paralleled my situation with her was being involved with her care in her elder years. Her medical issues and emotional ones were addressed appropriately but it seemed she was frequently unsettled by something. Sometimes it was better to not get into a conflicting discussion with her. What appeared to me as my father being passive/appeasing now also sometimes may have been seeing that "this too shall pass".

You've also experienced times of crisis where your wife does something that seem intolerable. Yet, you also have a lot on your plate- you have kids, you are supporting the family and to respond with boundaries will elicit a response from your wife that you don't really wish to deal with. I think you've also experienced that if you look at these as individual events, they don't last very long and the "solution" doesn't either. The larger pattern- the series of external solutions that don't solve the issues is the result of her emotions.

My take on her latest interest is that this is one more of these "solutions" that also will pass in time. Whatever her issue is with the marriage, to her, must be something external. She thinks maybe it's because she'd rather be with a woman so she goes on a dating site. Here, she gains attention, interest, and this helps bolster her self esteem. There's the luster of a new interest. You see how short lived that was- this person isn't doing what she wants either.

There's a secondary gain to this. You react and your focus is on her. Now there's another conflict, crisis, and you are drawn into it. Now, the attention is on her and her feelings.

While my stance remains with boundaries and not enabling- another approach is to just let this pan out and see what happens. Discussing this may not be effective for you. If she could see your point of view she wouldn't have done it. You aren't "giving her permission" if you don't argue about it with her. You can simply say your wish is for monogamy, you don't want an open marriage but you aren't going to decide for her what she's going to do and then, not get into it with her more. 

It's very possible that this too shall pass. She will find out soon enough, if not already, that no person is perfect. It's also possible that she realizes that she is mainly attracted to women and if that's true, there's not much you can do about that.