It may be over

[awakened23]

very good advice and observations in this thread from Wendy and Pete.

sorry hit send early meant to say NotWendy, PeteWitsend, and SuperDaddy

[ForeverDad]

Honestly, my gut is telling me no matter what the progression is here, it will end very badly and my goal is to protect me and the kids from damaging drama.

There is no way to completely protect yourself and especially #1 priority the kids.  That is why so many, after trying so many options and strategies, finally conclude that it is the dysfunctional relationship at the core of everything.  You can't fix the other.  You can't consistently reason with the other's inconsistent moods, feeling and perceptions.

I really tried but failed to hold the marriage together.  That's why I accepted that divorce was the only alternative left for me.  (Even before we separated, when our child was a preschooler, my spouse was threatening to zero my parenting by disappearing with our toddler.)  Not only was I being disparaged and disrespected, I was no longer seen as having any authority.  So I turned to family court which, strangely enough is The Authority in today's society.  It's not optimal and is often far too passive in the face of obvious obstruction and sabotage, but it does limit the damage in many ways.

I was able to establish my own home, a calm and stable one versus the endless conflict and discord of a joint home environment, where my child could experience the contrast between my home and the ex's home, the contrast of my norms versus her, the contrast of normalcy versus whatever happened at the ex's home.  Yes, mine wasn't a perfect example, but it was far better than before.  And it set a limit to the chaos and mayhem.  All for our child to learn from and guide his future decisions.

[maxsterling]

Foreverdad - 

I get the feeling one of these days I will be asking you for exit strategies.  If I had an easy exit strategy, I would have taken it by now.  I’m well aware that W’s dysfunction is at the core of everything, and the best I can hope for is to manage what I can.

A not so small part of me hoped W would cheat with someone who actually has a place she could stay at.  Right now she is 100% dependent on me, incapable of holding a job or managing basic life tasks such as eating.  I’ve thought about just renting another place somewhere and agreeing to pay the rent for a period of time.  Really hard to make a change without her having some other place to go.  She has no friends or family to stay with. 

[ForeverDad]

Frankly, I didn't think, "This is my exit strategy."  While I didn't blunder into it, I'd describe it was all the other options were taken away from me.

Yes, I did record myself so I could try to make a defense, "I recorded to document I wasn't the one making aggressive threats.  If the other was recorded behaving aggressively, that's not my fault."  Strangely, the system didn't care much about that.  My conclusion was that we were seen as bickering and the court assumed that it would decrease after the divorce.  Well, it didn't.  But at least I was able to unwind the marriage and financial connections, leaving only the parenting to continue.

[SuperDaddy]

I’ve thought about just renting another place somewhere and agreeing to pay the rent for a period of time.  Really hard to make a change without her having some other place to go.  She has no friends or family to stay with. 

Yes, that's a hard situation. Do you live in a rented place? I do, and this is an advantage. With that I could convince my wife to leave. She agreed because I was about to leave and end the renting contract, so she would have to leave anyway. But she has her mom's house and a few other close parents.

I was here thinking, what would I do if she didn't have any place to go and I wanted to part ways? I'd probably rent the cheapest possible place for her, and from there I'd let her figure it out. And I mean real cheap, such as just a bed in a shared girls' hostel room or a small place in the slums.

It's hard to understand how your W would really not have anyone to count on. I mean, in a live-or-death situation, I'm imagining some parent would help her out, or an old friend?

Anyway, in your particular case, if your place is rented, then you can just leave and end the contract, leaving her to move into the RV with her other woman. Remember, she is an adult.

Sorry if this sounds too harsh, but it's important to know your options.

[Notwendy]

The striking thing is that if I had those qualities it would be a turn off for my W.  Considering the number of times she has shamed me for being a slob (I’m no worse than the average person, and definitely no worse than W), the number of times she complained about the size of our house, the number of times she complained about me not making enough money, I find this a little suspect

Your wife may be seeking something different in this relationship.

We tend to form relationships with people we meet in our own circle, so it would make sense that my BPD mother would marry someone who was similar to her family members who had stable jobs.

Also, if we want a family, we'd want to be married to someone with similar goals, and capacity to provide and care for them- whether that is by traditional roles or shared ones. Your wife isn't seeking a husband and father- she has you.

In terms of having a poor self image, BPD mother would look to others for her own self image. Having a husband who provided for her helped her to feel valued. She, herself didn't have a lot of accomplishments but being married to someone who had a good job contributed to her self esteem.

BPD mother did not work outside the home. Yet, when a sibling had difficulty with employment and worked a lower paying job, she was very critical of that. I think this could be a reason why your wife is critical of your income, the house. She doesn't think she's enough, so from her own thinking, you aren't either. But this is a reflection of her thinking, not you.

With other people, like female friends, BPD mother tended to seek out people who had less than her. It didn't start out that way. Prior to the "women's movemement" she was similar to her peers who didn't work outside the home, but after that, as women entered the workplace and she didn't- maybe it was harder for her to feel good about herself around women who had careers. Perhaps she chose people who she didn't feel would be challenging to her own self image.

This may be why your wife has chosen someone whose circumstances are less than hers. It's hard to know what is going on. I assume this person put "working in medicine" on the dating website, but not all medical related jobs are high paying. It's also possible she fell on hard times with the divorce. Why she's in this situation is anyone's guess.

[Rowdy]

maxsterling ,

If your wife has no moral compass like PeteWitsend described, then that's big trouble. But hopefully she does have some?

If she were putting me in an uncomfortable position, I would perhaps play around with her by flipping the situation. First, I would pretend to be assuming to be gay and immediately "confess" that I had an online affair with another man. A few days later, I would ask her if it would be ok to meet this person. Just to see her reaction. I'm guessing she would say no and then would propose ending her own affair. But for this to work, you would need to do it very well. Perhaps really go into a gay dating site and really talk to another gay man, but of course tell them the truth. I believe they are likely to keep talking to you even knowing the truth. With that you would be able to show some part of that conversation to her. If my wife said yes, then I would actually go out and pretend to be doing stuff with someone else. That would give her some perspective on what she is doing with you.

I really don’t think this is a good idea. If your partner has bpd and you can convince them of something like this, you open yourself up to all sorts of situations that will run through their heads and they will convince themselves that everything that is going on in their head is fact. You then are faced with the consequence of trying to convince them it was all an elaborate plan to try and get them to change their own view point and they just simply won’t believe you. And it will get dragged up in every argument from that moment until eternity.

We spend our lives treading on eggshells trying not to make one wrong move to stop them becoming dysregulated, why on earth would you manufacture a situation that could, or probably would, be unrecoverable from.

I doubt it would make much difference to the disordered person anyway. For example, I asked my ex how she would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a drug addict that ran off with my drug dealer, would she not fight for the relationship and try and show me how my decision was a bad one. She did agree to some extent but made no difference. In one heated exchange I commented that maybe I should go and f*** a few of her friends before running off with one, which is exactly what she has done, only for her to call me a sick twisted b*stard.

I’m afraid with a pwBPD you will never get them to see the double standards at play.

[Notwendy]

Right now she is 100% dependent on me, incapable of holding a job or managing basic life tasks such as eating.  I’ve thought about just renting another place somewhere and agreeing to pay the rent for a period of time.  Really hard to make a change without her having some other place to go.  She has no friends or family to stay with. 

I understand this situation. I didn't see the whole of it initially. I also wondered why my father didn't divorce her, why he put up with her behavior. I would not have blamed him if he had divorced her.

I didn't see how dependent and low capacity she was as she mostly leaned on him and also she was very invested in keeping up the image of competence. Her behavior was a family secret. I don't blame her- it would have felt shameful to her if anyone truly knew the whole of it. 

Rather than seem appreciative, being dependent also felt shameful to her, and she resented that, and so, doing things for her- which she needed, also enhanced her feeling of incompetence, and at times she'd project that and react to it.

In her later years, I could see just how impaired she was with her BPD. She truly could not function on her own in any capacity. While having boundaries was necessary, how much to disconnect posed a moral dilemma. Even if we have every right to walk away from an abusive situation, how does one leave a completely dependent person who can not function to fend for themselves?

Yet, like the bridge story, we also don't have to go over the edge with them either. Where's the balance? 

I don't have an answer. These are complicated situations and different for everyone. I don't think there's one right or one wrong way. It would be easier to leave if your wife found someone else to stay with- that way, you'd know she'd not be on her own. So far, that isn't happening. Maybe one day, divorce would be a choice for you, maybe not. For now the issue is the one at hand- her wanting to meet up with a woman and what happens with that.

[SuperDaddy]

I really don’t think this is a good idea.
...
For example, I asked my ex how she would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a drug addict that ran off with my drug dealer, would she not fight for the relationship and try and show me how my decision was a bad one.

I’m afraid with a pwBPD you will never get them to see the double standards at play.

What you tried is completely different from what I suggested. You just brought a hypothetical situation to the conversation, which doesn't work at all. And then you made kind of a threat, which just fills into the drama and has a detrimental effect.

What I said is to just let her fall into the trap of believing for a while that you are actually doing the thing. I have done this a few times in different relationships and circumstances, and it has always worked in making them regret their past actions. In my experience, it works perfectly in making them drop the double standards. They are much more sensible, so they learn fast from just "a fabricated sample" how it feels to be on the other side.

[Rowdy]

What you tried is completely different from what I suggested. You just brought a hypothetical situation to the conversation, which doesn't work at all. And then you made kind of a threat, which just fills into the drama and has a detrimental effect.

What I said is to just let her fall into the trap of believing for a while that you are actually doing the thing. I have done this a few times in different relationships and circumstances, and it has always worked in making them regret their past actions. In my experience, it works perfectly in making them drop the double standards. They are much more sensible, so they learn fast from just "a fabricated sample" how it feels to be on the other side.

oh yeh I agree with you. What I said was completely wrong, triggering and definitely not the right way to go about things. But it highlights the lack of accountability and the double standards. But at the time I’d said those things I wasn’t even aware bpd was a thing.

The problem I have with your suggestion is the way the majority of bpd persons mind works. If you put one little seed in their mind something that can dysregulated them, it can end up like a runaway train. The scenarios that play out in their heads become their reality. I’m not sure how long your relationships have lasted, but from my own personal experience and many others on here, if you did something they perceived as a slight towards them 20 years ago, even though they got the complete wrong end of the stick, you’ve explained tirelessly that they misunderstood or misread the words/situation/look/sound you made, it doesn’t matter what you say or do their mind is made up, and that thing that happened 20 years ago, no matter how insignificant or misunderstood that thing was, it will be dragged up time and time again, and it is just another round of ammunition they have in their armour against you.
I completely get where you are coming from and the idea behind it, I just really do not think it is a good idea…… at all.

[Notwendy]

Another thought on your wife's dependency on you and shame.

Does your wife "mask" in social situations? My BPD mother had an entirely different persona in public. Charming, intelligent, seemingly competent. Nobody would have had a clue.

I felt envious that other people got the "good side" of her, but then I realized it was the mask that hid the parts of her that she felt shame about. It wasn't real. We got the real side of her, as difficult as it was sometimes.

She had become friends with a woman about my age. By then, I knew that if someone was in her circle, that wasn't my place, so I didn't have contact with this person. She needed to have a separate world than family, because, we saw the bigger picture. I contacted her when my mother passed away and she shared memories of the good times they had together.

One one hand, this was crushing. She and my mother did things together that I wished my mother could have done with me. On the other hand, I knew she couldn't, because, I knew her in a different context. With this person, BPD mother could present the part of her she chose to let her see.

I think this is what your wife is seeking. She is completely dependent on you and knows she needs you, but that also triggers her shame and she feels resentful. You've seen the larger picture. The good and the not so good. But that's all of her.

Your wife isn't seeking to replace you or find another husband. It's actually because she has you that she can be something different to someone else. It also might appear that my BPD mother had found a "replacement daughter" but she wasn't seeking what she already had. This was a relationship that met an emotional need for her.

On this dating site, your wife can be whoever she chooses other people to see. There's no history with this woman, so there's no shame. At least not yet. If this woman has less materially than she does, she doesn't feel less than her. She may even feel superior to her. This person is showing her attraction, admiration.

Your wife needs you but this triggers her shame. She doesn't "need" this other woman. She can reinvent herself with her. While you might feel jealousy, that this woman is getting the "good side"- what she's getting isn't real, even if it appears that way to you. It may meet some need of your wife but it can't give her real love because the woman isn't getting the "real her". How long this lasts, one can't tell. But you're the real person to her and at some level your wife knows that, even if it shame triggers her.

[maxsterling]

Wendy, If we did not have small kids I would probably say this isn’t working out and that both of us would be better with our own space, and then help her find a place if she wanted.  More than likely, she would move with friends or family out of state.  This has nothing to do wit my feelings towards her, it’s more about recognizing the need to move on being in both of our best interests.

But the kids keep her here, as I would not agree to her leaving the state with the kids.  And she does have a role as a mother, however dysfunctional at times.  A 50/50 parenting time would be ideal if it could be maintained.  That will certainly take effort from me to ensure the kids are provided for when they are not with me.  Kids with me 100% of the time would be emotionally difficult on them.  I know there are other arrangements, but these all present similar problems.

Either way, if she wants to be with women or does not want to have a monogamous marriage, I can’t do anything about those desires.  Neither would work for me given the already stressful nature of this r/s.  If it came down to it, I would say that we have to find a way to separate.

Superdaddy -  

I understand what you are saying.  In my case, my W is cerebral enough and had enough therapy in her life to know the problems she is creating are her own.  That doesn’t stop her from projecting, but if I were to “play along” for awhile in hopes she would realize the problems she is creating, it would serve no end because deep down she already knows she is the source.