It may be over (cont)

[maxsterling]

An update here.  Nothing that wasn't predicted. 

BpdW got into an argument with her new romantic interest about her other girlfriend.  When W told me what was going on, clearly there was some triangulation, not with me, but with W, and the two other women.  This started because W was feeling left out and decided to go back on the women's dating platform, where she was immediately messaged by her new romantic interest's new GF.  And then some weird stuff was said. 

Either the new GF was trying to cause friction or was emotionally playing games in some other way.  Wither way, I expected this, and this was my biggest fear.

So then things got ugly in BPD style (curse words followed by "i don't want to talk to you anymore").  Now W is clearly acting heartbroken, in a very unhealthy obsessive way.  In W's mind, she is trying to restrain herself from contacting this woman again (basically stalking), sad because this woman won't talk to her anymore, and feels that this happened only because she and her did not have a physical relationship.  I told her that if they had a physical relationship, the same would have happened, and she would feel much worse not only because she shared a physical relationship with someone who abandoned her, but because it also would have likely ended our marriage. 

That's the backwards BPD logic talking, and the root of most of W's traumas - doing things she feels uncomfortable with in order to get people to like her, getting rejected, and then feeling intense shame.  She feels that if she had a physical relationship with this woman, she would not have sought another girlfriend.  Yet, from the beginning, the other woman was very open about not wanting a monogamous r/s.   A huge emotional double standard.  Scary too that the other woman is a psych nurse and probably should have identified this right away. 

W's T says she can't meet with her until next week.  W now acts on the verge of suicidal, yet I can't force her to get help. 

[SuperDaddy]

I think the behavior is not ruled by what she says (the conscious explanation), but rather by the unconscious desire to have relationship conflicts, to fail, and to be rejected. Only because this will give her the spikes of dopamine and endogenous opioids that she craves for. In other words, I think those relationships fail by design.

[Notwendy]

Hi Max- IMHO- this is her problem and also her lesson to learn. Sometimes natural consequences are the best way to learn. It's your wife who wanted to explore the idea of open marriage and same sex dating and guess what? ( as predicted) she didn't find herself in a community of perfect people, who never have issues or drama, and it isn't the perfect remedy for her issues.

Because there isn't such thing as a community of pefect people with no drama. All groups of humans are varied.

And there's no such thing as the perfect external solution for your wife's discontent.

IMHO, stay out of this one - this is not your problem to solve. This doesn't have to be your crisis. If you step in to manage your wife's feelings- she won't learn from it.

 I hope your wife doesn't become suicidal but if this were the case- the approach is still the same for any time someone is like this- call 911, get her to medical care.

[maxsterling]

Superdaddy -

I agree.  This cycle is how W views the world.  If there isn't conflict, emotions aren't intense enough, and it isn't meaningful.  Reminds me of the times when she is upset with me about not being upset enough.  She really isn't seeking out a stable loving relationship with a woman - she is seeking out the excitement and drama.

Wendy - I am doing my best to stay out of this one.  There are a couple complicating factors here:  1) the suicidal stuff and 2) the kids.

The suicidal stuff is very tricky as the way laws work, calling 911 helps nothing unless she is willing to ask for help.  In the past, she has talked about suicide and I have called 911, and when police/paramedics/crisis response come W says she wasn't serious or denies things, and they tell me there is nothing they can do.  I have looked at getting her involuntarily evaluated for in-patient care, but the information I got tells me this is not an easy route - I can describe what has happened, but certain criteria have to be met first before she can be taken for evaluation.  Me saying that she is severely depressed and mentioning suicide is not enough.  And if she were admitted for evaluation, she could still "put on a show" and then they can only hold her for 24 hours.  If we didn't have kids, I'd be willing to extract myself completely and let it hit the fan, but with kids there are other things to consider.  The best thing would be if others (such as her T) could persuade her to go in-patient or an IOP program.  I do feel somewhat of an obligation, not just as a spouse or friend, but as caring human, to try and persuade her into more intensive therapy.  Right now I am trying to help her see this is part of a pattern that she can choose to change without saying "I told you so". 

[Notwendy]

Also - I think it's a good idea to not discuss her relationship issues with her, or offer her advice- or try to soothe her with this.

This puts your attention on her issues. It's reinforcing to her. It makes her issue your issue.

What this other woman does and what the other woman's GF does has nothing to do with you.

Your wife still wants to do this, and I don't think you can control that. It's possible that the best outcome would be that she finds that her experiences are a big disappointment.

Not because these relationships are disappointing in themselves but because the common factor in any relationship she has is going to be her own issues with BPD. They won't be a solution for her because, no external solution exists.

Try to resist the urge to get involved unless a situation is truly dangerous.

[maxsterling]

How do I effectively evaluate how dangerous a situation is?

Clearly this is a situation where W needs professional help, not my help. 

Also - clearly this is already a situation where there is a reasonable chance of self-harm or a suicide attempt - because this is a route she has taken before.  Normally, I might consider these as inevitable, but right now children are in the picture. 

It feels like I need to evaluate the course that is least stressful for me and the kids in both the short and long term.  How would I feel if I completely stayed out of it and let the worst happen and trusted the long-term outcome was for the best vs how would I feel if I let myself become emotionally invested now to ease the short-term drama some knowing that it sets me up for more long-term drama?

My T suggests I just focus as hard as I can on self-care and emotionally detaching from this situation.  I agree with that.  The problem is with kids, W's drama impacts my ability for self-care because it shifts the burden of parenting 100% to me.  The reality, though, is that burden is already mostly on me. 

The other thing to consider is that W is 50, and this same situation seems to be a common and nearly constant theme with her since she was a teenager.  I'd be a fool to think that completely emotionally detaching would allow her to process on her own and "learn".   The goal here would be to save my emotional energy, and maybe she would learn to not lean on me in the future with such issues. 

Perhaps the best course for me right now is when she approaches me with her issues to say something like:

"those are very intense and serious emotions and you need to work through them with someone who is trained to help.  I can help you find resources if you would like."

[Notwendy]

I understand the concern for the kids- just also be careful to not reinforce her interpersonal dilemmas with a lot of attention to them. I know you are keeping a watch for danger.

[Notwendy]

How do you know it's getting to be dangerous? I don't think there's a way to know for sure.

However, I do agree with doing what you can to maintain your own sanity and well being. It's possible you are the 100% parent as it is.

In my own experience, my father was the 100% parent regardless. BPD mother was so disordered, she couldn't do it. She truly struggled.

However, he remained legally competent- we could not intervene or force mental health care on her, even as much as we wanted her to get help.

So I do get your dilemma. But your well being matters too, and also to the kids.

[Pook075]

How do I effectively evaluate how dangerous a situation is?

Clearly this is a situation where W needs professional help, not my help. 

Also - clearly this is already a situation where there is a reasonable chance of self-harm or a suicide attempt - because this is a route she has taken before.  Normally, I might consider these as inevitable, but right now children are in the picture. 

If your wife is a danger to herself or others, you dial 9-1-1.  Then the authorities can get her the help that she needs.

How to evaluate:

- Any form of self-harm/mutilation is a reason to call
- Any violence towards you, the kids, or herself
- Any statements similar to "I want to hurt myself, I wish I were dead, I don't want to be alive anymore"
- Any statements of "I wish <xyz> was dead, I want to kill them, they don't deserve to be alive anymore"
- Any major abuse of alcohol, drugs, etc. is also a reason to call
- Any evidence of reckless driving could also be a reason (especially with the kids in the car)

I hope that helps.

[maxsterling]

Pook075 -

Not sure where you live, but where I live, the authorities can't get her the help she needs unless they witness it themselves.  I've been down this road, many times.  The first time the police clearly witnessed her having mental health issues.  They told me there was nothing they could legally do, suggested I find someplace other than my own house to stay the night in hopes that she would just leave on her own.  Another time she had clearly broken dishes in the kitchen (I had left my house to a safe place and called).  She told them she "accidentally" dropped a plate, and they told me because they did not witness it and they did not witness immediate danger there was nothing they could do.  After that, I started calling for a crisis intervention team.  One time the crisis line told me my best option was divorce and declined to intervene. Another time they sent a crisis team and she threatened to call police on them for trespassing.  They declined to take any action to have her involuntarily evaluated, and said that if I wanted to do that, I would have to go down to the hospital the next day and file a petition.  Every time, they tell me that she definitely needs psychiatric care, but the law is very specific on what they are legally allowed to do.  One time a crisis happened out-of-state, and there they even had less authority than in my home state.  Had I been in my home state, she probably would have been taken for evaluation, but when we got home they could not do anything because the crisis happened out of state.  One possible saving grace is that she says a bunch of stuff through text messages - so that record may be enough. 

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother made several suicide threats and at attempts at self harm. Some may have been for  attention but it's not possible to know that.

After my father passed away, we were concerned but none of us live close by to get to her right away. We decided that if we heard her say anything that worried us we'd call 911. It was the best we could do from a distance.

I understand the difficulty in getting actual treatment. Once her doctor called me to tell me he was sending her to substance abuse rehab. I was so hopeful. She stayed two days, signed herself out and didn't go to any follow ups.

Because she remained legally competent, we could not intervene on any of her decisons or behaviors, even if it was for her own best interests.

As much as we wished she could get treatment, she, herself, would have had to consent to it.

I think it helps to consider the goal of calling 911. It may not be possible to get your wife into treatment but it still is getting them to be assessed.

It also took out the reinforcing behavior of our attention to it and it was up to the professionals to assess her. From what I could tell, she didn't do the threats as much, and perhaps this is why.

So even if it doesn't lead to your wife getting treatment, I think there's benefits to that response. We aren't professionals. We really can't assess someone for possible self harm.

[SuperDaddy]

Usually pwBPD love having kids because they feel important, especially females. This is because they feel important and get a sense of meaning in this word and feel worthy of love. Therefore, they get the endorphins they need.

At the same time, raising many kids can bring a lot of stress. Actually, for my wife, a single kid made her crazy, because she is unable to get authority over our boy. But since you live with her, you can take care of the stressful part and ask her for help with the rest. If instead of requesting her help you beg for it, she will feel important. Over time, you can make her feel necessary.

By the way, when you came to this board 13 years ago, you didn't have kids, right? So I'm assuming you decided to have a family with her, and you are fulfilled somehow by this relationship? Has she been a good mother? Did things deteriorate with time?

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother made several suicide threats and at attempts at self harm. Some may have been for  attention but it's not possible to know that.

After my father passed away, we were concerned but none of us live close by to get to her right away. We decided that if we heard her say anything that worried us we'd call 911. It was the best we could do from a distance.

I understand the difficulty in getting actual treatment. Once her doctor called me to tell me he was sending her to substance abuse rehab. I was so hopeful. She stayed two days, signed herself out and didn't go to any follow ups.

Because she remained legally competent, we could not intervene on any of her decisons or behaviors, even if it was for her own best interests.

As much as we wished she could get treatment, she, herself, would have had to consent to it.

I think it helps to consider the goal of calling 911. It may not be possible to get your wife into treatment but it still is getting them to be assessed.

It also took out the reinforcing behavior of our attention to it and it was up to the professionals to assess her. From what I could tell, she didn't do the threats as much, and perhaps this is why.

So even if it doesn't lead to your wife getting treatment, I think there's benefits to that response. We aren't professionals. We really can't assess someone for possible self harm.

I wanted to add- check your insurance. Sometimes ambulance isn't covered. Fortunately it was for BPD mother.

[maxsterling]

By the way, when you came to this board 13 years ago, you didn't have kids, right? So I'm assuming you decided to have a family with her, and you are fulfilled somehow by this relationship? Has she been a good mother? Did things deteriorate with time?

Things have been up and down.  As you mentioned, I somehow thought that having kids/family would help stabilize her and give our lives focus.  Despite all I read about BPD and all the warnings from others, that's what I thought.  Before we had kids, things felt more stable and hopeful in many areas - physical relationship, money, shared responsibilities.  Since the kids were born our marriage has turned more into a "managed" relationship.  W has acted more and mor incapable, has become more emotional, and now has more baggage to bring with her.  In other words, life became more serious, and the smaller things that carried little weight suddenly feel like they carry tremendous weight. 

Is the relationship still fulfilling to me?  At times.  But lately it has felt unfulfilling the majority of the time.  Honestly, I'd probably be happier and much less stressed if the r/s were to end in a constructive (non traumatic) way.  That's not because of a lack of love or affection - it's simply a fact that being in a r/s with a pwBPD is inherently stressful. 

Is she a good mother?  At times, very good.  She provides something the kids need, and our kids comparatively speaking are great kids.  But clearly the kids want more from her.  This is another area that has deteriorated with time.  For the first few years, W was more on top of the parenting thing.  Now most of it falls on my shoulders.

[Mutt]

Max, this sounds incredibly draining, especially with kids involved. It makes sense to focus on keeping yourself and the kids steady rather than getting pulled into the relationship drama.

When safety comes up, I’ve found it helps to take self-harm talk seriously and hand it off to professionals, instead of trying to carry that judgment alone.