Support groups that meet in person in nyc for parents of children with BPD?

[samss]

Hi,

I have a 22-year-old daughter with BPD. I only just learned of her diagnosis because even though her mother knew I don't know how long ago, she never shared this information with me. In one of my daughter's text outbursts at me yesterday she let on that she's been diagnosed with this. She is loving one minute where she spent all of Christmas to New Year's with me and was great and loving to this past 2 weeks calling and screaming and having complete meltdowns. I didn't know that she had been diagnosed with BPD or else I would have acted differently.

Any and all suggestions for in-person support groups in NYC would be very appreciated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[samss]

Since I'm not getting any responses to my query about in-person support groups in NYC. I was wondering if anyone has used/read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by by Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger?

I've been doing a lot of reading about BPD, and it seems like a good practical resource on how to respond with the emotional unreasonableness of how my daughter comes at me when she has her outbursts.

Still hoping anyone can recommend in-person support groups in NYC. Any responses would be most appreciated.

[Mutt]

Hi Samss,

I’m really glad you came back and posted again. Finding out about the diagnosis after the fact can be really unsettling, especially when things swing from loving and connected to intense outbursts so quickly. A lot of us here know that emotional whiplash.

Please don’t blame yourself for not handling things differently. Most parents aren’t told about the diagnosis, and even when we are, it takes time to learn new ways of responding.

Stop Walking on Eggshells is a pretty common starting point. Many people here have found it helpful just to make sense of what’s happening.

For in-person support in NYC, you might want to look into NAMI NYC (National Alliance on Mental Illness – NYC Metro). They run family support groups and a Family-to-Family course for caregivers:
https://naminycmetro.org

You’re not alone in this. What’s been weighing on you the most these past couple of weeks?

[samss]

Hi, Mutt,

What's been weighing on me? Let's see...

Did I do this?
What made her go from a loving child to one that is all-at-once ranting and manipulative and raving and demanding money as "compensation for her childhood". Seriously, that was part of last exchange to me. Once I gave her the money, even AFTER I gave her the money, she continued to rant saying things like "do I know I'm being manipulative, yes", or "I'm jealous of you, you've had a child and a home and a marriage" (even though I'm divorced many years now), and "I'll never have any of that".

Everything was so all-at-once hopeless and completely devoid of any hope for her. She spends too much time online reading about "things" and it is nuts her views on things that she didn't used to have before. Everything is only her opinion as the right one. No one, especially not me, can tell her anything. If I try to have any sort of opinion about anything, I'm immediately to be discounted and attacked all-at-once.

Until I read the line from her last exchange that she had this and a host of other issues, I didn't know what the diagnosis was because she won't share information with me. I have her on my insurance and told her to use my insurance to pay for the therapy and her response was, "you'll know who my therapist is then". I don't get what that would get me. I just wanted to make sure she had what she needs. That's it. I just want to make sure that what she needs for therapy and medication is covered. She can't seem to hold down a job, or I don't even know if she's looking. She makes comments about applying to places but when I give her leads, she ignores me.

It's all very frustrating watching from the sidelines and only hearing from her when she's manic in one direction or another. Although, now that I know what the diagnosis is it puts her behavior for the past few years in perspective. A lot more things make sense. I've been saying to friends that she goes from one extreme to another and it's bizarre dealing with the jekyll/hyde personality. So much more stuff makes sense now.

That doesn't mean any of it is easy though. I want to wrap her up in a big fluffy blanket surrounded by bubble wrap and make sure she's safe but she won't let me so all I can do is watch from the sidelines while she listens to her mother who is probably the worst person in the world to enable whatever she's dealing with.

Honestly, it all feels very disheartening and futile.

[Mutt]

Hi Samss,

The question “Did I do this?” really stood out to me.

Many of us have asked that same question. BPD isn’t caused by one parent, one mistake, or one childhood event. It’s much more complex than that. Guilt is a heavy thing to carry, and it doesn’t help you or her.

What I hear most in your post isn’t anger - it’s heartbreak. Loving from the sidelines can feel disheartening and futile.

You’re not alone in that feeling.

[samss]

Hi, Mutt,

Thank you for the link. I did some more digging.

Heartbreak is definitely where I am now. My daughter's threats and accusations and remonstrations and anger are overwhelming. They come at me like a hurricane all at once. She won't "talk" to me and instead sends me massive amounts of texts all-at-once and in very fast succession and then once she gets what she wants whether it's to abuse me, call me names, tell me horrible things about me, in the same breath telling me she doesn't "blame me for who I am" and then threatening to hurt herself and then telling me that I have to support her. I haven't said I won't support her, I'm trying to get her on her feet but she vacillates between saying she's trying to get her act together and that it's all hopeless and nothing will get better.

Knowing the BPD diagnosis helped a lot with all of the confusion I've had the past 5 or so years. It made a lot of sense. Reading posts here and reading as much as I can about the disorder has helped a LOT about making sense of the last few years. Everything makes a LOT more sense but that doesn't mean it makes it easier.

It was like I was putting together a jigsaw puzzle about my daughter's behavior and I had no frame to put it in. I couldn't figure out the corner pieces or the edges to put the other pieces inside. Once I started reading about BPD a LOT of things fell into place.

A friend said that knowing about this is both a curse and a blessing. I can put a name to what she's going through and how to better manage my reaction to her and her outbursts but it doesn't lessen how debilitating it feels being unable to do anything about it.

Parents are wired to care and protect. I can't do either.

[Mutt]

Hi Samss,

That line -  “Parents are wired to care and protect. I can’t do either.” - really hit me.

The rapid-fire texts, the swings between anger and reassurance, the threats… that’s a lot for anyone’s nervous system to absorb. Of course you feel overwhelmed.

One small shift that helped me in my own situation (different relationship, I know) was deciding when I would engage instead of reacting in real time. I stopped responding to waves of messages as they came in and chose a set time to read and reply. It didn’t fix anything overnight, but it helped me stop standing in the middle of the storm.

That wasn’t about caring less. It was about staying steady.

Understanding the diagnosis helps make sense of things, but it doesn’t make it easier emotionally. You’re allowed to feel heartbroken about that.

You’re not alone here.

[samss]

It's the standing on the sidelines while she's with her mother who sees and interacts with her daily is the heartbreaking part. We had a close relationship until I became the "enemy". I'm blamed for a lot of things and a lot of them are just insane to consider. The fact that she said "I deserve compensation for my childhood" was just jaw-dropping. Along with all the other things she wrote to me were just a lot. A lot a lot. I showed the ranting texts to friends and some of them couldn't even understand why I'd even respond and others still said I was "too nice".

My one theme in dealing with her ranting was, "I'm here when you need to reach out". That was all I could think. She only slipped in the line about her diagnoses (there were a few of them) at the end of her tirade before she stopped sending me any more messages.

Finding ways to respond and techniques to cope with the outbursts and the unreasonable demands coupled with threats of self-harm is what I'm trying to do at this point. Educate myself, train myself on how to respond, and make sure I take care of my own mental health. It's like that line when the flight attendant says "put your mask on first before you help anyone else." I don't believe I'm  any good to anyone if I am not any good to myself first.

Thank you, Mutt for your encouragement and your resource leads. I've been doing TOO MUCH surfing and reading about this and need to pace myself so I don't burn out.

[Mutt]

Hi Samss,

Going from being close to suddenly being “the enemy” is incredibly painful. And hearing something like “I deserve compensation for my childhood” would knock anyone sideways.

What really stood out to me was what you said about putting your own mask on first. That’s not selfish - it’s necessary. If you’re constantly bracing for the next hurricane of texts, you’ll burn out.

It also makes sense that you’re trying to pace yourself. In the beginning it’s easy to over-read and overwhelm yourself. This is a long road.

You’re handling this more thoughtfully than you probably realize.

[js friend]

Hi samss,

Sorry this first time reading your post. What stood out for me from your original post is that your dd actually told you that she has a dx of BPD. To me that is huge!!!!.
 
My udd32 is undx and the mere mention that she has a personality disorder would send her into rage mode. Once when she was a teenager and I began to put 2 and 2 together she saw that I had left  the book "stop walking on Eggshells" on a side table as I had been reading it. I had other children at home at the time so it could have been general reading and not about her(it was btw) and she totally lost it, shouting, accusing, cursing etc, so I think that your dd actually telling you about her dx is actually a big step. How you can actually encourage her to get the help that she needs I dont know.
You say that she already has a therapist, she can recover if she is serious about putting the work in, but only if she has a good therapist who is  versed in challenging BPD behaviour or is her therapist just someone that she can have a moan to about all the people who have been a problem to her in her life???

When it comes to your dd telling you that you owe her for her childhood my udd has said exactly the same to her father who was out of her life for a few years. She actually added up how much money believed that she had missed out on while he was away and said that he owed her that amount. She told him and was totally serious about it. I honestly think it was just another thing to hold against him and it wasnt something that he could never really make up for even though he tried. 

I know that it doesnt make sense to us as we would rather love than money but I think that being seen as having money eases their pain. My udd loves driving nice cars, designer clothes, hair and nails done reguarly and is always spending on stuff she doesnt need, buys the kids way too many toys but finds it hard to show affection.

I think for now that you need to concentrate on your mental health and keep your boundaries in place. No way do you need to accept a tirade of abuse because she is your dd and in emotional pain and dysregulation. Its ok to to take a break and tell your dd that you will speak with her when she is being respectful.

[Pook075]

Hi Samss,

First of all, let me share a few resources for NY support groups- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/groups/ny/new-york?category=borderline-personality
https://emotionsmatterbpd.org/

I'm so sorry that you're in this position and many of us have felt exactly the same way.  I can remember the long, drawn-out battles with my BPD daughter that appeared out of nowhere and went 0-100 in mere seconds.  It still baffles me, to be honest.

You mentioned "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and that's a great first book to read.  It helped me a lot and made me realize that so much of what happens with BPDs is in the moment as they're facing personal crisis. 

A lot of the time, the words are true for that moment and fueled by unstable feelings and emotions.  It's so easy to defend or argue, but this can often be counter-productive because the BPD doesn't remember what they said 30 seconds later.  They're just exploding with emotion and words come out that feel right in that moment.

So please don't take this personally, it's not a "you-thing" as much as it is mental illness at its worst.  Your kid hurts deeply and erupts, often saying "unforgivable" things that you must not hold onto.  It's painful, it's unfair, but unfortunately it is your daughter's reality when she's unstable.

Here's a place to start.  The next time your child lashes out while unstable, pay less attention to the words and more emphasis on the emotions behind them.  If they're upset, focus on what it's like to feel upset and try calming them down. 

We validate the valid...which is their feelings in those unstable moments.  However, we don't fight the invalid...which are the accusations and/or demands that accompany those feelings.

Does that make sense at all?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[samss]

Hi, pook and jsfriend,

Thank you to you both. I very much appreciate the insights and the advice. I do have lots of questions, the first is why does everyone use so many TLAs here? is there something wrong with spelling out daughter or daughter-in-law or anything else that seems pertinent?

Is there a dictionary that explains all these unnecessary shortform acronyms? I am finding all of this hard enough to grasp without also learning a new language just to communicate. If there is a dictionary that defines terms such as:

* dx
* udd (i'm guessing 32 stands for age or something, but don't want to assume)
* any other TLAs that many are using or where to look them up

Thank you both for responding  and for the advice. I'm really trying to do as much self-education as I can and am finding it all a lot to take in.

[js friend]

Hi again Samss,

Im not sure what a TLA is but these are the abbreviations I have used with no particular reason other than I just find it just quicker when doing a longish post.

dx diagnosed
dd diagnosed daughter
udd undiagnosed daughter

[samss]

jsfriend, just like you didn't know what a TLA is...

TLA = Three-letter-acronym.

Using acronyms that exclude anyone else knowing what the other person is talking about is difficult to follow.

Thank you for the clarification for the TLAs.

[CC43]

My daughter's threats and accusations and remonstrations and anger are overwhelming. They come at me like a hurricane all at once. She won't "talk" to me and instead sends me massive amounts of texts all-at-once and in very fast succession and then once she gets what she wants whether it's to abuse me, call me names, tell me horrible things about me, in the same breath telling me she doesn't "blame me for who I am" and then threatening to hurt herself and then telling me that I have to support her. I haven't said I won't support her, I'm trying to get her on her feet but she vacillates between saying she's trying to get her act together and that it's all hopeless and nothing will get better.

Hi there,

You've come to the right place, even if it's not a meeting in person.  Many parents here can relate to your posts.  This may sound strange, but I see some good things here.  First off, your daughter is young, and she has a diagnosis.  It seems like she's aware she has issues, and she's young enough to get some help before BPD derails her entire life.  Secondly, she has her mom and you.  Obviously you care very much, and you are still in regular contact with her.  At the end of the day, if you remain the calm and rational ones, you will be her biggest allies in the treatment journey.  And thirdly, through your daughter's projections of discontent, hatred and blame, I see some glimmers that she's TRYING.  Now I know she feels hopeless sometimes, but she confesses she's trying to "get her act together."  It's just that, without therapy, her volatile emotions get in the way and she feels like she's failing.  She'd rather blame YOU than face that fact, because it's utterly painful to her, and her thinking is too negative and distorted because of BPD.  A worse scenario would be if your daughter fully embraced a victim mindset and was determined to blame everyone else for all her problems--believing THEY are the ones who have to change, not her.

My apologies to the other active readers on these boards, but I'm going to copy an older entry of mine, in which I try to explain what I think is happening in the mind of a young adult with BPD:

I bet your daughter is blaming you for a terrible childhood, for ruining her life and for not doing enough for her.  She might start out sounding like she's not delusional, but as she gets riled up, I bet she turns mean, calling you a terrible parent and accusing you of all sorts of transgressions, most which are highly distorted or patently false.  Is she stuck in the past, dredging up the same old complaints, over and over again?  No matter how much you apologize, or you try to put things in perspective, it's never enough, is it?  In fact, once you start validating her, in an attempt to get her to calm down, she takes that as an invitation to try to get you to validate things that aren't even true, right?  Once she's riled up, she seems to spin out of control, and all logic gets thrown out the window.  She doesn't know how to calm herself down.

I have a few theories about this behavior, and they might clash with some of the classic recommendations on these boards (e.g. validate the feelings, not the facts).  First is that your daughter is blame-shifting.  She's not really mad at you for what she's accusing you of, even if that is what she THINKS she's mad about.  I bet what's really bugging her is fear about the future.  She knows she's an adult in age, but she still feels like a dependent adolescent, and it's killing her.  She doesn't really know who she is (she lacks a stable identity), and she doesn't have stable relationships (friends, co-workers, family, romantic partner).  Without the high school routine that was forced upon her, she feels rudderless.  Is she having trouble in college, and does she have a hard time finding (or keeping) a job?  Has she lost her friends?  She is discovering that she's not functioning well as an adult, and that makes her SCARED as well as inferior.  "Everyone else" seems to have an easy time making friends, finishing college and/or working, whereas she completely falls apart.  This induces in her a deep SHAME.  Rather than take setbacks in stride (failing a class isn't so bad, having a fight with a roommate can happen, but apologizing goes a long way; everyone has to start at the bottom in the work world, getting fired isn't the end of the world, there are a million other jobs out there), and rather than take some responsibility (I'll never make any money or friends if I stay lying in my childhood bedroom all day), she regresses in AVOIDANCE.  What does she do?  She dredges up ancient history from childhood and blames her dysfunction on that--terrible/unsupportive/abusive family members, they are the ones who make her dysfunctional.  This thought pattern makes her MAD, because she doesn't have what she wants today.  When she sees you, she sees an opportunity to lash out and unleash all this anger and frustration onto you.  If you're up for listening to her, you become her punching bag.  This is all just to avoid acting like an adult and taking responsibility for her life and her decisions.  That is simply too scary.  She RESENTS you because she still NEEDS you desperately, and it's killing her inside.

On top of that, generally speaking, her expectations are totally unreasonable and unrealistic.  I think this is rooted in adolescent or childish thinking patters.  She's impatient.  She's demanding.  She still expects adults to over-function for her.  She still expects to be the center of attention at all times.  She expects too much devotion from friends.  She wants to make decisions, but if something goes wrong, she expects you to face the consequences and "rescue" her, because you "owe" her.  Now, when she was a kid, this was normal.  But now that she's an adult, she's having trouble adjusting her expectations, and at the same time, her childish expectations simply aren't being met.  She still probably expects that you continue to pay most or all of her living expenses.  She's resistant to doing adult administrative tasks, and she's frightened because she doesn't necessarily have the know-how, either.  She's afraid to ask for help, say from a friend or an employer, because she'd be "exposed" for her lack of knowledge, for the fraud she feels she is.  She wasn't really prepared to do autonomous, self-guided study in college, or to figure out how to apply for jobs, or even how to accept coaching from a supervisor.  Any "criticism" would be taken personally, and she'd completely fall apart.  I bet she hasn't really embraced the notion that she's responsible for herself now, because she's probably blaming you, full-time.  Let me guess, your daughter says she suffers from anxiety?  My bet is that's because she feels incompetent, inferior and scared.  She's so afraid of a failing and a little stress that she gives up before she even tries, and to cope, she's lashing out at you.  Does this sound familiar?  If it does, it's because I've lived though it, all of it.

If any of that rings some bells, it's because it's classic BPD.  You did not cause it, and unfortunately you cannot cure it.  Believe me, I've wanted to be a fairy godmother, wave a magic wand and have all the negativity, pain, frustration and anger instantly disappear.  Unfortunately, BPD doesn't work that way.  Your daughter has to be the one do get therapy, believe in it and work hard at it.  In the meantime, you're doing great, educating yourself and learning more, because dealing with BPD can seem perplexing and counterintuitive sometimes.  All my best to you.

[samss]

cc43,

This hit home most with me...

On top of that, generally speaking, her expectations are totally unreasonable and unrealistic.  I think this is rooted in adolescent or childish thinking patters.  She's impatient.  She's demanding.  She still expects adults to over-function for her.  She still expects to be the center of attention at all times.  She expects too much devotion from friends.  She wants to make decisions, but if something goes wrong, she expects you to face the consequences and "rescue" her, because you "owe" her.  Now, when she was a kid, this was normal.  But now that she's an adult, she's having trouble adjusting her expectations, and at the same time, her childish expectations simply aren't being met.  She still probably expects that you continue to pay most or all of her living expenses.  She's resistant to doing adult administrative tasks, and she's frightened because she doesn't necessarily have the know-how, either.  She's afraid to ask for help, say from a friend or an employer, because she'd be "exposed" for her lack of knowledge, for the fraud she feels she is.  She wasn't really prepared to do autonomous, self-guided study in college, or to figure out how to apply for jobs, or even how to accept coaching from a supervisor.  Any "criticism" would be taken personally, and she'd completely fall apart.  I bet she hasn't really embraced the notion that she's responsible for herself now, because she's probably blaming you, full-time.  Let me guess, your daughter says she suffers from anxiety?  My bet is that's because she feels incompetent, inferior and scared.  She's so afraid of a failing and a little stress that she gives up before she even tries, and to cope, she's lashing out at you.  Does this sound familiar?  If it does, it's because I've lived though it, all of it.

This is the part that I read so many times in this post, cc43. It was about 3 or 4 years ago that I was sitting in the living room with my daughter and a friend who was about her age but going through landlord issues. She and I were talking about her options in NYC and who to contact. All of a sudden, my daughter burst out, "this is what you always do, you talk about things that I can't participate in." This was HER friend. I was only giving basic 311 advice to this friend. It was a bizarre outburst that she had to make the conversation about herself.

My daughter recently told me "I have no friends". She didn't say it in a way that was sad, just factual.

So much of what has said in the near and far past resonates with everything you wrote. She DOES expect me to continue funding her life. She actually said that she expects "compensation" for her childhood.

Her mother (ex-wife) is a problem in she won't and didn't share ANY information about her diagnosis until I found out on my own. I wonder how long my ex has known but has kept it all from me.

Her final texts to me were all about her knowing she's being manipulative but that she's jealous that she'll never have a "normal" life and that I need to take care of her for that.

All of what she said was bizarre. Most of it was just unhinged. I tried to remind her of her past behavior and she just ignored anything I told her. Now, I know why. A lot of what she ranted and raved at me about makes a lot more sense now that I know what the issues are (somewhat).

I suggested going to a family therapist together. Her response, "I don't want us to heal" yet she signed off her last text with that she would find a therapist. Any therapist I'd found she insisted that I was finding one that would just gaslight her.

I am not looking for validation for anything. I am looking for coping mechanisms. What I am also finding is that others have dealt with this with their own kids. In some ways that's comforting. At the same time, it's saddening.

I hope there's hope. I can only wait and see.

Thank you for the response. Your message was very informative as have everyone else's. I very much do appreciate all the responses.

[ForeverDad]

Here is a link to common abbreviations here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0

Also, many of our practical tools and communication skills are discussed on our Tools and Skills Workshops board, just one of our many boards here.  It includes a better view of boundaries, why logic doesn't deal with the other's feeling "in the moment", and so much more.

Even though she is aware of BPD, the idea of that label can be triggering, so be aware that some of what we discuss here might trigger as well.  For example, while Borderline was once viewed as not treatable, that's decades old.  Experienced therapists should be well aware of Dialectical or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (DBT or CBT) but not up to us to name them lest we trigger some more.

As much as we wish otherwise, we can't "fix" the other.  Borderline is known for it hallmark traits of highly inconsistent feelings and perceptions, Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting, among others.  Your daughter has a long emotional history with both you and her mother.  That emotional baggage may make a difficult for her to truly listen to you, especially when she's in rant mode.  Hopefully an emotionally neutral and experienced therapist can help her in complementary ways you can't.

[CC43]

Hi again,

I'd encourage you to go through some of the posts in the Son/Daughter section.  I bet you will see some recurring themes and useful tips.

By the way, your daughter's statement of "You have no friends" is probably code for, your daughter thinks SHE has no friends.  This is in all likelihood projection.  My bet is that your daughter lost some friends after unfortunate rage-texting episodes, and she's extremely hurt by that.  She's ruminating so much about her shrinking social circle that her preoccupation manifests as an accusation.

Anyway, if you notice that your daughter is making accusations of you which seem delusional, I'd recommend to listen for projections and the FEELINGS behind the accusations.  That will tell you what your daughter is really worried about.  As an example, my adult BPD stepdaughter was ruminating obsessively about falling behind her peers and generally feeling inferior.  This preoccupation often manifested in statements like, "You're condescending, you treat me like a baby, you're childish."  And also, "I'm an adult, I can do whatever I want, I don't have to listen to you."  She said "I'm an adult, I can do whatever I want" so often that it sounded like the exact opposite.  What she was really saying was, "Though I'm an adult, I feel childish and embarrassed because I need to ask my dad to sign my lease/send me money/fix my car/explain what a car registration is, and I have to ask him because otherwise I'd be homeless/carless/have no fun and it's his fault he put me in this situation in the first place, it's not fair, I never asked to be born!"  In summary, she resents you for making her feel dependent on you . . .

[samss]

Hi, cc43,

The comment my daughter made about "I have no friends" was her talking about herself, not me. My daughter has lost ALL of her friends. She's gone through numerous roommates in college, no one was ever acceptable. Every living situation she had in college she found issues with until she had a room in an apartment by herself off-campus. Even then the family she was living with was "a problem".

I get everything everyone is saying. I've experienced everything everyone has written here. It's as though all of you are living my experiences. I've been listening for the projections behind the accusations for quite some time now. I hear them. She doesn't like facing the things she has said or done from the past but only wants to keep focus on how everyone around her has "wronged" her in some way.

Mine pulled the "I'm an adult" line and it ended up costing me thousands when she screwed that situation up. I had to remind her of that the next time she used that line and point out, "the last time you said you were an adult it cost me a lot of money." She didn't like being reminded of that.

Her last tirade was all about how she feels impotent in her life and that she will never have a relationship or a child or a job; as if she'd already given up. One of the techniques her current therapist did teach her was to call a timeout on herself when she started to lose her cool. I think it helped in one argument we had.

She doesn't like listening to anyone give her advice. Absolutely everyone is wrong about everything and she knows everything there is to know and is the definitive final say about every topic.

"I'm an adult" is a common theme for her. Right after she says, "I need money and you owe me."