Support groups that meet in person in nyc for parents of children with BPD?

[samss]

Hi,

I have a 22-year-old daughter with BPD. I only just learned of her diagnosis because even though her mother knew I don't know how long ago, she never shared this information with me. In one of my daughter's text outbursts at me yesterday she let on that she's been diagnosed with this. She is loving one minute where she spent all of Christmas to New Year's with me and was great and loving to this past 2 weeks calling and screaming and having complete meltdowns. I didn't know that she had been diagnosed with BPD or else I would have acted differently.

Any and all suggestions for in-person support groups in NYC would be very appreciated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[samss]

Since I'm not getting any responses to my query about in-person support groups in NYC. I was wondering if anyone has used/read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by by Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger?

I've been doing a lot of reading about BPD, and it seems like a good practical resource on how to respond with the emotional unreasonableness of how my daughter comes at me when she has her outbursts.

Still hoping anyone can recommend in-person support groups in NYC. Any responses would be most appreciated.

[Mutt]

Hi Samss,

I’m really glad you came back and posted again. Finding out about the diagnosis after the fact can be really unsettling, especially when things swing from loving and connected to intense outbursts so quickly. A lot of us here know that emotional whiplash.

Please don’t blame yourself for not handling things differently. Most parents aren’t told about the diagnosis, and even when we are, it takes time to learn new ways of responding.

Stop Walking on Eggshells is a pretty common starting point. Many people here have found it helpful just to make sense of what’s happening.

For in-person support in NYC, you might want to look into NAMI NYC (National Alliance on Mental Illness – NYC Metro). They run family support groups and a Family-to-Family course for caregivers:
https://naminycmetro.org

You’re not alone in this. What’s been weighing on you the most these past couple of weeks?

[samss]

Hi, Mutt,

What's been weighing on me? Let's see...

Did I do this?
What made her go from a loving child to one that is all-at-once ranting and manipulative and raving and demanding money as "compensation for her childhood". Seriously, that was part of last exchange to me. Once I gave her the money, even AFTER I gave her the money, she continued to rant saying things like "do I know I'm being manipulative, yes", or "I'm jealous of you, you've had a child and a home and a marriage" (even though I'm divorced many years now), and "I'll never have any of that".

Everything was so all-at-once hopeless and completely devoid of any hope for her. She spends too much time online reading about "things" and it is nuts her views on things that she didn't used to have before. Everything is only her opinion as the right one. No one, especially not me, can tell her anything. If I try to have any sort of opinion about anything, I'm immediately to be discounted and attacked all-at-once.

Until I read the line from her last exchange that she had this and a host of other issues, I didn't know what the diagnosis was because she won't share information with me. I have her on my insurance and told her to use my insurance to pay for the therapy and her response was, "you'll know who my therapist is then". I don't get what that would get me. I just wanted to make sure she had what she needs. That's it. I just want to make sure that what she needs for therapy and medication is covered. She can't seem to hold down a job, or I don't even know if she's looking. She makes comments about applying to places but when I give her leads, she ignores me.

It's all very frustrating watching from the sidelines and only hearing from her when she's manic in one direction or another. Although, now that I know what the diagnosis is it puts her behavior for the past few years in perspective. A lot more things make sense. I've been saying to friends that she goes from one extreme to another and it's bizarre dealing with the jekyll/hyde personality. So much more stuff makes sense now.

That doesn't mean any of it is easy though. I want to wrap her up in a big fluffy blanket surrounded by bubble wrap and make sure she's safe but she won't let me so all I can do is watch from the sidelines while she listens to her mother who is probably the worst person in the world to enable whatever she's dealing with.

Honestly, it all feels very disheartening and futile.

[Mutt]

Hi Samss,

The question “Did I do this?” really stood out to me.

Many of us have asked that same question. BPD isn’t caused by one parent, one mistake, or one childhood event. It’s much more complex than that. Guilt is a heavy thing to carry, and it doesn’t help you or her.

What I hear most in your post isn’t anger - it’s heartbreak. Loving from the sidelines can feel disheartening and futile.

You’re not alone in that feeling.

[samss]

Hi, Mutt,

Thank you for the link. I did some more digging.

Heartbreak is definitely where I am now. My daughter's threats and accusations and remonstrations and anger are overwhelming. They come at me like a hurricane all at once. She won't "talk" to me and instead sends me massive amounts of texts all-at-once and in very fast succession and then once she gets what she wants whether it's to abuse me, call me names, tell me horrible things about me, in the same breath telling me she doesn't "blame me for who I am" and then threatening to hurt herself and then telling me that I have to support her. I haven't said I won't support her, I'm trying to get her on her feet but she vacillates between saying she's trying to get her act together and that it's all hopeless and nothing will get better.

Knowing the BPD diagnosis helped a lot with all of the confusion I've had the past 5 or so years. It made a lot of sense. Reading posts here and reading as much as I can about the disorder has helped a LOT about making sense of the last few years. Everything makes a LOT more sense but that doesn't mean it makes it easier.

It was like I was putting together a jigsaw puzzle about my daughter's behavior and I had no frame to put it in. I couldn't figure out the corner pieces or the edges to put the other pieces inside. Once I started reading about BPD a LOT of things fell into place.

A friend said that knowing about this is both a curse and a blessing. I can put a name to what she's going through and how to better manage my reaction to her and her outbursts but it doesn't lessen how debilitating it feels being unable to do anything about it.

Parents are wired to care and protect. I can't do either.

[Mutt]

Hi Samss,

That line -  “Parents are wired to care and protect. I can’t do either.” - really hit me.

The rapid-fire texts, the swings between anger and reassurance, the threats… that’s a lot for anyone’s nervous system to absorb. Of course you feel overwhelmed.

One small shift that helped me in my own situation (different relationship, I know) was deciding when I would engage instead of reacting in real time. I stopped responding to waves of messages as they came in and chose a set time to read and reply. It didn’t fix anything overnight, but it helped me stop standing in the middle of the storm.

That wasn’t about caring less. It was about staying steady.

Understanding the diagnosis helps make sense of things, but it doesn’t make it easier emotionally. You’re allowed to feel heartbroken about that.

You’re not alone here.

[samss]

It's the standing on the sidelines while she's with her mother who sees and interacts with her daily is the heartbreaking part. We had a close relationship until I became the "enemy". I'm blamed for a lot of things and a lot of them are just insane to consider. The fact that she said "I deserve compensation for my childhood" was just jaw-dropping. Along with all the other things she wrote to me were just a lot. A lot a lot. I showed the ranting texts to friends and some of them couldn't even understand why I'd even respond and others still said I was "too nice".

My one theme in dealing with her ranting was, "I'm here when you need to reach out". That was all I could think. She only slipped in the line about her diagnoses (there were a few of them) at the end of her tirade before she stopped sending me any more messages.

Finding ways to respond and techniques to cope with the outbursts and the unreasonable demands coupled with threats of self-harm is what I'm trying to do at this point. Educate myself, train myself on how to respond, and make sure I take care of my own mental health. It's like that line when the flight attendant says "put your mask on first before you help anyone else." I don't believe I'm  any good to anyone if I am not any good to myself first.

Thank you, Mutt for your encouragement and your resource leads. I've been doing TOO MUCH surfing and reading about this and need to pace myself so I don't burn out.

[Mutt]

Hi Samss,

Going from being close to suddenly being “the enemy” is incredibly painful. And hearing something like “I deserve compensation for my childhood” would knock anyone sideways.

What really stood out to me was what you said about putting your own mask on first. That’s not selfish - it’s necessary. If you’re constantly bracing for the next hurricane of texts, you’ll burn out.

It also makes sense that you’re trying to pace yourself. In the beginning it’s easy to over-read and overwhelm yourself. This is a long road.

You’re handling this more thoughtfully than you probably realize.

[js friend]

Hi samss,

Sorry this first time reading your post. What stood out for me from your original post is that your dd actually told you that she has a dx of BPD. To me that is huge!!!!.
 
My udd32 is undx and the mere mention that she has a personality disorder would send her into rage mode. Once when she was a teenager and I began to put 2 and 2 together she saw that I had left  the book "stop walking on Eggshells" on a side table as I had been reading it. I had other children at home at the time so it could have been general reading and not about her(it was btw) and she totally lost it, shouting, accusing, cursing etc, so I think that your dd actually telling you about her dx is actually a big step. How you can actually encourage her to get the help that she needs I dont know.
You say that she already has a therapist, she can recover if she is serious about putting the work in, but only if she has a good therapist who is  versed in challenging BPD behaviour or is her therapist just someone that she can have a moan to about all the people who have been a problem to her in her life???

When it comes to your dd telling you that you owe her for her childhood my udd has said exactly the same to her father who was out of her life for a few years. She actually added up how much money believed that she had missed out on while he was away and said that he owed her that amount. She told him and was totally serious about it. I honestly think it was just another thing to hold against him and it wasnt something that he could never really make up for even though he tried. 

I know that it doesnt make sense to us as we would rather love than money but I think that being seen as having money eases their pain. My udd loves driving nice cars, designer clothes, hair and nails done reguarly and is always spending on stuff she doesnt need, buys the kids way too many toys but finds it hard to show affection.

I think for now that you need to concentrate on your mental health and keep your boundaries in place. No way do you need to accept a tirade of abuse because she is your dd and in emotional pain and dysregulation. Its ok to to take a break and tell your dd that you will speak with her when she is being respectful.

[Pook075]

Hi Samss,

First of all, let me share a few resources for NY support groups- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/groups/ny/new-york?category=borderline-personality
https://emotionsmatterbpd.org/

I'm so sorry that you're in this position and many of us have felt exactly the same way.  I can remember the long, drawn-out battles with my BPD daughter that appeared out of nowhere and went 0-100 in mere seconds.  It still baffles me, to be honest.

You mentioned "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and that's a great first book to read.  It helped me a lot and made me realize that so much of what happens with BPDs is in the moment as they're facing personal crisis. 

A lot of the time, the words are true for that moment and fueled by unstable feelings and emotions.  It's so easy to defend or argue, but this can often be counter-productive because the BPD doesn't remember what they said 30 seconds later.  They're just exploding with emotion and words come out that feel right in that moment.

So please don't take this personally, it's not a "you-thing" as much as it is mental illness at its worst.  Your kid hurts deeply and erupts, often saying "unforgivable" things that you must not hold onto.  It's painful, it's unfair, but unfortunately it is your daughter's reality when she's unstable.

Here's a place to start.  The next time your child lashes out while unstable, pay less attention to the words and more emphasis on the emotions behind them.  If they're upset, focus on what it's like to feel upset and try calming them down. 

We validate the valid...which is their feelings in those unstable moments.  However, we don't fight the invalid...which are the accusations and/or demands that accompany those feelings.

Does that make sense at all?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[samss]

Hi, pook and jsfriend,

Thank you to you both. I very much appreciate the insights and the advice. I do have lots of questions, the first is why does everyone use so many TLAs here? is there something wrong with spelling out daughter or daughter-in-law or anything else that seems pertinent?

Is there a dictionary that explains all these unnecessary shortform acronyms? I am finding all of this hard enough to grasp without also learning a new language just to communicate. If there is a dictionary that defines terms such as:

* dx
* udd (i'm guessing 32 stands for age or something, but don't want to assume)
* any other TLAs that many are using or where to look them up

Thank you both for responding  and for the advice. I'm really trying to do as much self-education as I can and am finding it all a lot to take in.

[js friend]

Hi again Samss,

Im not sure what a TLA is but these are the abbreviations I have used with no particular reason other than I just find it just quicker when doing a longish post.

dx diagnosed
dd diagnosed daughter
udd undiagnosed daughter

[samss]

jsfriend, just like you didn't know what a TLA is...

TLA = Three-letter-acronym.

Using acronyms that exclude anyone else knowing what the other person is talking about is difficult to follow.

Thank you for the clarification for the TLAs.

[CC43]

My daughter's threats and accusations and remonstrations and anger are overwhelming. They come at me like a hurricane all at once. She won't "talk" to me and instead sends me massive amounts of texts all-at-once and in very fast succession and then once she gets what she wants whether it's to abuse me, call me names, tell me horrible things about me, in the same breath telling me she doesn't "blame me for who I am" and then threatening to hurt herself and then telling me that I have to support her. I haven't said I won't support her, I'm trying to get her on her feet but she vacillates between saying she's trying to get her act together and that it's all hopeless and nothing will get better.

Hi there,

You've come to the right place, even if it's not a meeting in person.  Many parents here can relate to your posts.  This may sound strange, but I see some good things here.  First off, your daughter is young, and she has a diagnosis.  It seems like she's aware she has issues, and she's young enough to get some help before BPD derails her entire life.  Secondly, she has her mom and you.  Obviously you care very much, and you are still in regular contact with her.  At the end of the day, if you remain the calm and rational ones, you will be her biggest allies in the treatment journey.  And thirdly, through your daughter's projections of discontent, hatred and blame, I see some glimmers that she's TRYING.  Now I know she feels hopeless sometimes, but she confesses she's trying to "get her act together."  It's just that, without therapy, her volatile emotions get in the way and she feels like she's failing.  She'd rather blame YOU than face that fact, because it's utterly painful to her, and her thinking is too negative and distorted because of BPD.  A worse scenario would be if your daughter fully embraced a victim mindset and was determined to blame everyone else for all her problems--believing THEY are the ones who have to change, not her.

My apologies to the other active readers on these boards, but I'm going to copy an older entry of mine, in which I try to explain what I think is happening in the mind of a young adult with BPD:

I bet your daughter is blaming you for a terrible childhood, for ruining her life and for not doing enough for her.  She might start out sounding like she's not delusional, but as she gets riled up, I bet she turns mean, calling you a terrible parent and accusing you of all sorts of transgressions, most which are highly distorted or patently false.  Is she stuck in the past, dredging up the same old complaints, over and over again?  No matter how much you apologize, or you try to put things in perspective, it's never enough, is it?  In fact, once you start validating her, in an attempt to get her to calm down, she takes that as an invitation to try to get you to validate things that aren't even true, right?  Once she's riled up, she seems to spin out of control, and all logic gets thrown out the window.  She doesn't know how to calm herself down.

I have a few theories about this behavior, and they might clash with some of the classic recommendations on these boards (e.g. validate the feelings, not the facts).  First is that your daughter is blame-shifting.  She's not really mad at you for what she's accusing you of, even if that is what she THINKS she's mad about.  I bet what's really bugging her is fear about the future.  She knows she's an adult in age, but she still feels like a dependent adolescent, and it's killing her.  She doesn't really know who she is (she lacks a stable identity), and she doesn't have stable relationships (friends, co-workers, family, romantic partner).  Without the high school routine that was forced upon her, she feels rudderless.  Is she having trouble in college, and does she have a hard time finding (or keeping) a job?  Has she lost her friends?  She is discovering that she's not functioning well as an adult, and that makes her SCARED as well as inferior.  "Everyone else" seems to have an easy time making friends, finishing college and/or working, whereas she completely falls apart.  This induces in her a deep SHAME.  Rather than take setbacks in stride (failing a class isn't so bad, having a fight with a roommate can happen, but apologizing goes a long way; everyone has to start at the bottom in the work world, getting fired isn't the end of the world, there are a million other jobs out there), and rather than take some responsibility (I'll never make any money or friends if I stay lying in my childhood bedroom all day), she regresses in AVOIDANCE.  What does she do?  She dredges up ancient history from childhood and blames her dysfunction on that--terrible/unsupportive/abusive family members, they are the ones who make her dysfunctional.  This thought pattern makes her MAD, because she doesn't have what she wants today.  When she sees you, she sees an opportunity to lash out and unleash all this anger and frustration onto you.  If you're up for listening to her, you become her punching bag.  This is all just to avoid acting like an adult and taking responsibility for her life and her decisions.  That is simply too scary.  She RESENTS you because she still NEEDS you desperately, and it's killing her inside.

On top of that, generally speaking, her expectations are totally unreasonable and unrealistic.  I think this is rooted in adolescent or childish thinking patters.  She's impatient.  She's demanding.  She still expects adults to over-function for her.  She still expects to be the center of attention at all times.  She expects too much devotion from friends.  She wants to make decisions, but if something goes wrong, she expects you to face the consequences and "rescue" her, because you "owe" her.  Now, when she was a kid, this was normal.  But now that she's an adult, she's having trouble adjusting her expectations, and at the same time, her childish expectations simply aren't being met.  She still probably expects that you continue to pay most or all of her living expenses.  She's resistant to doing adult administrative tasks, and she's frightened because she doesn't necessarily have the know-how, either.  She's afraid to ask for help, say from a friend or an employer, because she'd be "exposed" for her lack of knowledge, for the fraud she feels she is.  She wasn't really prepared to do autonomous, self-guided study in college, or to figure out how to apply for jobs, or even how to accept coaching from a supervisor.  Any "criticism" would be taken personally, and she'd completely fall apart.  I bet she hasn't really embraced the notion that she's responsible for herself now, because she's probably blaming you, full-time.  Let me guess, your daughter says she suffers from anxiety?  My bet is that's because she feels incompetent, inferior and scared.  She's so afraid of a failing and a little stress that she gives up before she even tries, and to cope, she's lashing out at you.  Does this sound familiar?  If it does, it's because I've lived though it, all of it.

If any of that rings some bells, it's because it's classic BPD.  You did not cause it, and unfortunately you cannot cure it.  Believe me, I've wanted to be a fairy godmother, wave a magic wand and have all the negativity, pain, frustration and anger instantly disappear.  Unfortunately, BPD doesn't work that way.  Your daughter has to be the one do get therapy, believe in it and work hard at it.  In the meantime, you're doing great, educating yourself and learning more, because dealing with BPD can seem perplexing and counterintuitive sometimes.  All my best to you.

[samss]

cc43,

This hit home most with me...

On top of that, generally speaking, her expectations are totally unreasonable and unrealistic.  I think this is rooted in adolescent or childish thinking patters.  She's impatient.  She's demanding.  She still expects adults to over-function for her.  She still expects to be the center of attention at all times.  She expects too much devotion from friends.  She wants to make decisions, but if something goes wrong, she expects you to face the consequences and "rescue" her, because you "owe" her.  Now, when she was a kid, this was normal.  But now that she's an adult, she's having trouble adjusting her expectations, and at the same time, her childish expectations simply aren't being met.  She still probably expects that you continue to pay most or all of her living expenses.  She's resistant to doing adult administrative tasks, and she's frightened because she doesn't necessarily have the know-how, either.  She's afraid to ask for help, say from a friend or an employer, because she'd be "exposed" for her lack of knowledge, for the fraud she feels she is.  She wasn't really prepared to do autonomous, self-guided study in college, or to figure out how to apply for jobs, or even how to accept coaching from a supervisor.  Any "criticism" would be taken personally, and she'd completely fall apart.  I bet she hasn't really embraced the notion that she's responsible for herself now, because she's probably blaming you, full-time.  Let me guess, your daughter says she suffers from anxiety?  My bet is that's because she feels incompetent, inferior and scared.  She's so afraid of a failing and a little stress that she gives up before she even tries, and to cope, she's lashing out at you.  Does this sound familiar?  If it does, it's because I've lived though it, all of it.

This is the part that I read so many times in this post, cc43. It was about 3 or 4 years ago that I was sitting in the living room with my daughter and a friend who was about her age but going through landlord issues. She and I were talking about her options in NYC and who to contact. All of a sudden, my daughter burst out, "this is what you always do, you talk about things that I can't participate in." This was HER friend. I was only giving basic 311 advice to this friend. It was a bizarre outburst that she had to make the conversation about herself.

My daughter recently told me "I have no friends". She didn't say it in a way that was sad, just factual.

So much of what has said in the near and far past resonates with everything you wrote. She DOES expect me to continue funding her life. She actually said that she expects "compensation" for her childhood.

Her mother (ex-wife) is a problem in she won't and didn't share ANY information about her diagnosis until I found out on my own. I wonder how long my ex has known but has kept it all from me.

Her final texts to me were all about her knowing she's being manipulative but that she's jealous that she'll never have a "normal" life and that I need to take care of her for that.

All of what she said was bizarre. Most of it was just unhinged. I tried to remind her of her past behavior and she just ignored anything I told her. Now, I know why. A lot of what she ranted and raved at me about makes a lot more sense now that I know what the issues are (somewhat).

I suggested going to a family therapist together. Her response, "I don't want us to heal" yet she signed off her last text with that she would find a therapist. Any therapist I'd found she insisted that I was finding one that would just gaslight her.

I am not looking for validation for anything. I am looking for coping mechanisms. What I am also finding is that others have dealt with this with their own kids. In some ways that's comforting. At the same time, it's saddening.

I hope there's hope. I can only wait and see.

Thank you for the response. Your message was very informative as have everyone else's. I very much do appreciate all the responses.

[ForeverDad]

Here is a link to common abbreviations here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0

Also, many of our practical tools and communication skills are discussed on our Tools and Skills Workshops board, just one of our many boards here.  It includes a better view of boundaries, why logic doesn't deal with the other's feeling "in the moment", and so much more.

Even though she is aware of BPD, the idea of that label can be triggering, so be aware that some of what we discuss here might trigger as well.  For example, while Borderline was once viewed as not treatable, that's decades old.  Experienced therapists should be well aware of Dialectical or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (DBT or CBT) but not up to us to name them lest we trigger some more.

As much as we wish otherwise, we can't "fix" the other.  Borderline is known for it hallmark traits of highly inconsistent feelings and perceptions, Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting, among others.  Your daughter has a long emotional history with both you and her mother.  That emotional baggage may make a difficult for her to truly listen to you, especially when she's in rant mode.  Hopefully an emotionally neutral and experienced therapist can help her in complementary ways you can't.

[CC43]

Hi again,

I'd encourage you to go through some of the posts in the Son/Daughter section.  I bet you will see some recurring themes and useful tips.

By the way, your daughter's statement of "You have no friends" is probably code for, your daughter thinks SHE has no friends.  This is in all likelihood projection.  My bet is that your daughter lost some friends after unfortunate rage-texting episodes, and she's extremely hurt by that.  She's ruminating so much about her shrinking social circle that her preoccupation manifests as an accusation.

Anyway, if you notice that your daughter is making accusations of you which seem delusional, I'd recommend to listen for projections and the FEELINGS behind the accusations.  That will tell you what your daughter is really worried about.  As an example, my adult BPD stepdaughter was ruminating obsessively about falling behind her peers and generally feeling inferior.  This preoccupation often manifested in statements like, "You're condescending, you treat me like a baby, you're childish."  And also, "I'm an adult, I can do whatever I want, I don't have to listen to you."  She said "I'm an adult, I can do whatever I want" so often that it sounded like the exact opposite.  What she was really saying was, "Though I'm an adult, I feel childish and embarrassed because I need to ask my dad to sign my lease/send me money/fix my car/explain what a car registration is, and I have to ask him because otherwise I'd be homeless/carless/have no fun and it's his fault he put me in this situation in the first place, it's not fair, I never asked to be born!"  In summary, she resents you for making her feel dependent on you . . .

[samss]

Hi, cc43,

The comment my daughter made about "I have no friends" was her talking about herself, not me. My daughter has lost ALL of her friends. She's gone through numerous roommates in college, no one was ever acceptable. Every living situation she had in college she found issues with until she had a room in an apartment by herself off-campus. Even then the family she was living with was "a problem".

I get everything everyone is saying. I've experienced everything everyone has written here. It's as though all of you are living my experiences. I've been listening for the projections behind the accusations for quite some time now. I hear them. She doesn't like facing the things she has said or done from the past but only wants to keep focus on how everyone around her has "wronged" her in some way.

Mine pulled the "I'm an adult" line and it ended up costing me thousands when she screwed that situation up. I had to remind her of that the next time she used that line and point out, "the last time you said you were an adult it cost me a lot of money." She didn't like being reminded of that.

Her last tirade was all about how she feels impotent in her life and that she will never have a relationship or a child or a job; as if she'd already given up. One of the techniques her current therapist did teach her was to call a timeout on herself when she started to lose her cool. I think it helped in one argument we had.

She doesn't like listening to anyone give her advice. Absolutely everyone is wrong about everything and she knows everything there is to know and is the definitive final say about every topic.

"I'm an adult" is a common theme for her. Right after she says, "I need money and you owe me."

[ForeverDad]

My daughter has lost ALL of her friends. She's gone through numerous roommates in college, no one was ever acceptable. Every living situation she had in college she found issues with until she had a room in an apartment by herself off-campus. Even then the family she was living with was "a problem".

Borderline was likely to be renamed due to it being an emotional dysregulation disorder (or something like that, as I recall) but the updated DSM 5 didn't include such a change.

What I will point out is that people on the periphery of contact with a person with BPD traits (pwBPD) or just occasional contact may notice something "off" but not greatly impacted.  But the closer the relationship, the more impacting it is.

It is often remarked that they have an outsized fear of abandonment.  Ponder that they can anticipate abandonment and unconsciously "jump the gun" and abandon (drive others away by their actions and reactions) before they can be abandoned.  Sort of, a self-fulfilling fear.

Of course, you as one of her parents are experiencing a larger dose of her angst.  Her friends can leave and move on, but a parent will always be a parent.

From another angle... Can I ask how old she was when you divorced?  Was your ex high conflict, possibly also acting-out disordered?  If you were never informed of a diagnosis, did you not have joint custody?  With joint custody - regardless of how the parenting schedules split parenting time - both parents should have been informed of a minor's status.  I am wondering the extent of her mother's environment might have been an aggravating factor.

[samss]

Hi, ForeverDad,

Her mom and I divorced when she was very little. About 3. My ex has always been withholding of information about our daughter. I saw her the usual amounts (every other weekend, etc). But, primarily my ex raised her and that is where the problem is. My ex also has her own issues. My daughter has been having issues most of her life but it seems very pronounced now that she's an adult. The real bad issues happened when she went off to college and had to get along with others in social structures. Roommates, friends, all of that was problematic. Now that my daughter has graduated, she's living at her mom's and has decided that I'm the ATM (she's said as much) and that her mom gets the time.

My last interaction with her was all about my daughter not being able to find a job but needing money for copays for her therapy. I've said repeatedly to use my insurance but my daughter's response was that "you'll be able to see my appointments". It's the paranoia that that will mean something to me as to who she bills the insurance to was the first odd thing. My daughter has no money and no prospects for work. She claims to be looking but I doubt she is.

My daughter vacillates between being super sweet and loving to a screaming banshee either on the phone or by text. There is no middle ground. Both moods can happen within the same 3 minute time frame and the way she behaves it's as though she doesn't even know that she was the other a few minutes before. It's a very bizarre dynamic dealing with someone who can't regulate their emotions. Knowing she has a diagnosis of BPD helped a lot to understand what may be going on.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

She's gone through numerous roommates in college, no one was ever acceptable. Every living situation she had in college she found issues with until she had a room in an apartment by herself off-campus. Even then the family she was living with was "a problem".

Mine pulled the "I'm an adult" line and it ended up costing me thousands when she screwed that situation up.

Her last tirade was all about how she feels impotent in her life and that she will never have a relationship or a child or a job; as if she'd already given up.

Well I've been in the exact same situation.  My adult BPD stepdaughter has gone through more "living situations" than I can count, and the roommates are always "toxic" and "abusive."  I don't believe she has ever made it until the end of a lease.  Of course, since her dad was paying, she didn't seem to mind.  I'm pretty sure we've paid as much rent for her NOT to live in an apartment as we have for her to live in it.  Ditto tuition.  "Giving up" was a recurring theme, and it drove me absolutely bonkers.  Ultimately she gave up on her very life with multiple suicide attempts.

Look, I get that most young adults need parental logistical, emotional and/or financial support when they start out.  It's just that with BPD, I think the expectations are for the support to be unlimited.  The mentality seems to be, they need parents to "set them up" in a "new" place so they can get a "fresh start," in the hopes that their problems will magically disappear.  But the reality is that changing locations doesn't solve anything.  In reality, changing locations creates more havoc because of the substantial cost and stress of moving, not to mention moving farther away from familiar places and traditional support systems.  I think my BPD stepdaughter has made changing up her living situations like a full-time job.  I see it as AVOIDANCE, as a distraction from what she should really be doing, namely college and/or employment.  Sometimes I see the fleeing as the flight reaction when she's in fight-or-flight mode.  You see, she feels constantly "traumatized" by life, and so she thinks she needs a new living situation to flee from it.

By the way, my stepdaughter grew up with the traditional visitation schedule with her long-divorced parents (home base with mom, Wednesday evenings and every other weekend with dad).  But when she got a car and a driver's license, she was able to go back and forth basically at will.  I think this freedom of movement didn't exactly help her, because what she would do was leave whichever household was trying to enforce rules or boundaries.  Rather than learn to face problems and resolve conflicts, what she learned was to flee the situation, and her absense became "punishment" to the "offending" parent!  And the receiving parent was generally all too happy to accommodate her.  The "offending" parent would typically reach out and "beg" her to return.  What did she learn?  That acting out, petulance and storming off in protest got her out of facing consequences for her behaviors, and in addition got her attention.  The thing is, the older she got and the more freedoms and money she got, the more she relied on this formula--acting out, storming off, trying to get attention as well as exact retribution.  But it only works with parents.  Friends and roommates won't tolerate that sort of baloney.  There have been no boyfriends as far as I know, which is surprising because my stepdaughter is a very attractive woman.  By the way, I'll mention that my stepdaughter's mom is a high-conflict person.  No idea if she has mental issues, but I wouldn't be surprised one bit if she did.  My husband (her dad) is supportive, but in a more traditional "provider" role than emotionally.  He has a temper and loses his cool when under stress, which is probably not the ideal formula when dealing with a daughter with BPD.  I've heard him yell at her a few times when I felt he should have been able to be the "calm one."  He doesn't quite see as I do that his daughter's accusations and insults are projections.  Like her, he tends to take everything personally, when he shouldn't be so easily triggered.  Yet kids know how to push parental buttons better than anyone.

Anyway, without really knowing all the particulars of your situation, I might make a few suggestions based on years of experience in dealing with this.  First off, you might think in terms of baby steps.  Now I know you might have big dreams for your daughter about going off to college, starting a career or starting a family, and I'm not saying she's not capable, but right now her BPD means she's emotionally "handicapped."  She's facing an adult's world with all its freedoms and stresses but with the emotional skills of a young teen at best.  She's not adequately equipped to handle the world yet (with patience, resilience, understanding of context, empathy, distress tolerance, conflict resolution skills, focus, vision, planning and execution skills).  Basically she's telling you this because she thinks she'll "never" have a relationship, kids or job.  My stepdaughter says the exact same thing.  She's all worried about the distant future, seeing herself in harshly negative light while she scrolls through social media.  My guess is that both daughters are worried about disappointing their parents, too.

Look, she doesn't have to plan out her entire life right now--that's simply too frightening as well as daunting.  She should focus on taking baby steps.  Probably the first baby step is therapy.  Right now, that might be her primary focus.  Other things can wait.  When my stepdaughter was at her lowest point, I think it helped her dad and me to think in terms of having a "special needs" kid.  I think it relieves some of the guilty feelings, as well as recognizing that "conventional" parenting and expectations don't quite work with a BPD kid.

I'd ask you, does your daughter's life look highly dysfunctional right now?  Is she sleeping all day, is her room a total mess?  Is she not able to complete her studies?  She can't seem to hold a job?  Is she self-medicating with illicit substances?  Is she unable to maintain any healthy friendships?  Is she unable to have a "normal" conversation with you, no matter how insignificant?  Is she unable to follow normal routines like eating dinner with family at dinnertime?  Is she looking physically unattractive--not showering regularly, not putting on cute outfits, overeating, not getting any exercise?  Her physical condition (and that of her room/apartment) are likely a reflection of her mental state.  She might beg you to enrol her in college again.  She might demand you set her up in a new apartment again.  She might beg you to help her move out of state.  My opinion is that, if her life is looking dysfuncitonal, big commitments or moves would be setting her up to fail.  I'd advise, don't do it for her.  Besides, at 22, if she really wanted to re-enrol in college or move out of state, she should be able to do it herself.  If you do it FOR her, you are basically enabling continued dysfunction, while digging yourself (and her) into a deeper hole.

OK back to baby steps.  If your daughter focuses on therapy, she would be learning some emotional coping skills, and she'd probably be getting her daily life under control.  I think the first signs of better functioning are along the lines I outlined above--getting into a healthier daily routine, taking care of her body and environment, resuming more normal-looking routines like sharing a meals with family members, seeing friends from time to time and getting regular exercise.  She should be able to show some restraint, such as not blowing up over nothing, and not hurling tirades by text.  I think that's when she's probably ready to start some higher-stress routines, such as classes or a job.  But I'd advise, BABY STEPS.  That might look like taking an online class or two at first, to work up to higher stress levels.  Maybe it looks like an easy part-time job at first like dog walking.  Only after she proves she can handle the increased responsibilities would she progress to a fuller schedule.  She might need a year handling a very part-time schedule (e.g. 15 hours a week) plus therapy before she's ready for more.

In all this process of taking baby steps, I think your daughter can start to build momentum.  In my opinion, the direction of movement is more important than speed.  Sure, she's going to "derail" from time to time, but the important thing is to get back on track relatively quickly.  My guess is that you can be a huge ally for her here.  How does that sound to you?

There was a time that my BPD stepdaughter was making all sorts of demands for money and support.  But at some point, the conversation starts to change, from one of "enablement" to one of "emotional support/cheerleader."  For example, my stepdaughter dreams of moving to an expensive city.  Instead of saying, "Your dad and I can't afford to co-sign a lease there," or "You'd need a job paying at least $90,000 to afford an apartment," I'd say something like, "I can see why you're attracted to that city, it's a dynamic place."  If she insists that she absolutely has to go there, I'll say something like, "Well I'm not stopping you."  I guess I'm saying that the parental role eventually has to evolve from provider/educator to cheerleader/trusted advisor.  But I'm not offering "unsolicited" advice that I'm usually inclined to give, such as concerns about affordability and budgeting, because she won't listen to me anyway, and she'll take it to mean that I'm not supportive.  I have to trust that she'll figure it out.

[samss]

Hi, cc43,

yes to all of your questions about how my daughter is doing right now. I don't know about the state of her room because she's at her mother's. I know that she does sleep all day and doesn't have any friends (which is what she said when I told her to go out with her friends for New Year's, "I don't have any friends" is how she described her current life), has no job but claims to be "working on her resume which she won't let me see nor help with job leads and any job leads I do provide, she shoots down.

The support she does expect seems to be unlimited starting with the "I demand to be compensated for my childhood" to "I need money for copays for therapy" (the latter of course, I was happy to pay for but wanted to pay directly and her objection was that I'd "see her therapist" if I was allowed to pay the copay through the payment site, in the end I sent her enough to cover 3 months' worth of copays, let's see if she actually uses it for that or comes back in a month demanding more money). She has no means of income and has no idea what she wants to do. She talks about getting a job "at a coffeeshop" but never goes past talking. She talks about "buying a place of her own" but I have no idea how she would do that.

The whole fleeing thing reminds me of the expression "no matter where you go, you take yourself with you".

I can make suggestions about baby steps but as she's not listening to me other than to lash out and demand money, I can only make the suggestions and hope something gets through.

One thing I have realized is that consistency needs to be the main focus of my interactions with her. I cannot one time participate and give in to her delusions about accusations and demands for money and the next time stand my ground. The last time I gave her money will be the last time and only with conditions if it happens again.

I'm hoping the more I educate myself about this and learn better ways of interacting, that our relationship will morph into something better.

i can hope.

[CC43]

Hi,

I've been exactly where you are right now.  My stepdaughter took some time off living at her mom's a couple of times, and she did exactly what you describe.  The longer her "vacation," the worse she got.  I write "vacation" because that's how it starts--for example summer break--but as it continues, it looks more and more like vacating her entire life, relinquishing herself and sinking into a pit of despair.

I think you let her live with mom for as long as she can stand it.  My guess is that she'll get fed up and have some sort of altercation, and then she'll rebound and ask to live with you for a time.

Should you decide to let your daughter live with you, my advice is to be prepared with firm boundaries.  She's not a kid anymore, and she can't just expect for you to let her live with you in her childhood bedroom while she continues with the status quo (sleeping all day, not working or studying, blaming you for all her woes).  My advice--do not enable her to be NEETT, which is my abbreviation for Not in Education, Employment, Training or Therapy.  In short, if you are supporting her in any way, she is not allowed to give up on her life and stop trying.  While she's living with you, she must be respectful and contributing some way, such as paying rent, picking up after herself and doing communal chores.  And she must be working on creating an adult's life for herself, through some combination of study, therapy, volunteerism/training or employment.  In other words, don't fall into the trap my husband was in:  allowing an able-bodied adult to be on permanent vacation while being disrespectful/hostile, demanding and petulant, creating chaos in our home when it's supposed to be a sanctuary, and essentially getting "paid" by her dad to do nothing good.

I'd advise, please do not let her back in your home unless you are prepared to enforce boundaries, and make these clear from the start.  You can say this respectfully:  My darling, you are an adult now, and if you live with me, I want to have a respectful and peaceful home where everyone contributes.  If you live here, (state your basic house rules).  I understand you are free to live anywhere you want, and if you're not comfortable with those conditions, I respect that--you don't have to live here, I'm not forcing you.  But in this house, all adults have to be respectful and contribute, including you.  If you don't respect that, I'm going to ask you to leave.

As for financial support, I understand that it's not realistic to expect your currently dysfunctional daughter to support herself, in New York City no less, if she can't even hold down a starter job.  But I do think she can start to take some responsibility for herself.  If she's not doing so already, I'd start with the cell phone--this is an example of a baby step.  Get her off your plan (or your ex's) and make her pay for her own phone.  She's free to decide not to have a personal phone and borrow someone else's.  But she's 22, she should be responsible for that sort of expense.  I'd say, the same goes for all other luxury, entertainment and convenience items--let her earn the money to pay for them.  If she's so dysfunctional and can't do any job (such as babysitting), then you can start with paid chores.  Another formula that might incentivize her is a matching scheme, where you match a percentage of anything she earns, with a goal of gradually weaning her off your matching support.  If she wants money for a training program or similar, fine, but she has to earn a meaningful percentage of the cost, so that she has skin in the game.  I think this sort of thing is the difference between financial "support" and outright enablement.  Support is when she's generally doing the right things and going in the right direction, and you're boosting her up.  I'll highlight the importance of seeing positive ACTIONS first, not empty promises (or worse, threats).  In contrast, enablement is when she's not doing what she's supposed to be doing, while YOU are bearing the costs, consequences  and efforts.  Make sense?

As for the therapy co-pays, I think you tell her:  Look, I'm paying for your health insurance, and for as long as I'm paying for it, I'm going to receive the co-pays, and since I'm responsible for the co-pays, I need to ensure they are paid.  I understand you might not like that, but you are free to buy your own insurance and be responsible for your own co-pays.  Most adults buy insurance through their employer.  OK?

As for not following up on job leads, I've been there too.  But she's not going to get a job until she has to.  If you give her money for phones, manicures, travel, restaurant foods and other luxuries, she's content with what she has, even though she demands more.  She's not going to work or do anything productive unless she's absolutely compelled, which is why I suggest starting with the cell phone plan.  Maybe your ex will "sabotage" your efforts by giving her too much spending money.  But she's free to do that for as long as your daughter is living at her place.  You might have to wait it out in the meantime.

All my best to you.  Try to stay calm and reasonable, your daughter really needs it.