BPDw has a girlfriend now...

[maxsterling]

Maybe it is time to post on the next board...

Update:  BPDw now has a "girlfriend" that she devotes the majority of her time towards, at the expense of myself and the kids.  And frankly, at least for the short term, it is a better arrangement for me and the kids because it removes some of the constant chaos, instability, and emotional burden out of our house.  Marriage counseling basically ended when W sent text messages to MC saying that I was being abusive and MC was enabling my abuse.  MC responded with a firm "you are wrong", and W pretty much ended that relationship.

Oh, and the GF and I share many of the same qualities.  Weird. 

Right now, the positives far outweigh the negatives.  I get time to myself or just me and the kids.  My anxiety level is much lower, stress related ailments are lessening, I feel like I can concentrate on my job more, and I am getting more done around the house.  Also - I have more time to spend with the people I want to spend time with and doing the things I want to do.   

Drawbacks?  Well, W has done little help with parenting or maintaining the house in a few months.  But then again, she wasn't doing much of that anyway.  W is gone more than half the time, and the kids seem more relaxed.  We no longer have any kind of physical relationship, but we barely had that in years with the near constant conflict.  It is nice to sit outside by myself after the kids go to bed.

I'm not sure where this will go, but likely to a separation and divorce.  That does mean W has to find a way of earning income, but she expresses desire to have her own space.

The red flags to look out for:  Being invited to the drama triangle.  This was a problem at first, but then I let go of all expectations of her as a wife or mother and took the attitude of "I get whatever I get."  In other words, if I expect to feel like a single parent (and I do, and have for a long time) then all I ask of her is when she will be around to help out.  Basically, I am staying out of all drama.  I do expect at times she will get back to blaming me for stuff - but it is much easier to depersonalize when I have some space and no expectations.  Right now she seems irritated that the kids want to spend more time with me and wants to blame me for that. 

The other potential red flag is when BPDw eventually turns on her new GF.  Considering this has happened with every RS BPDw has ever had, and there have been many, I see this as inevitable.  Right now, I see a few cracks, because many of the negative qualities BPDw sees in me the new GF has tenfold.  At some time, things will get ugly, and I need to make sure I avoid the "rescuer" role.

All in all - right now I feel more relaxed and hopeful than I have been in a long time.

[PeteWitsend]

if you do go the route of separation and divorce, be sure to have objective evidence of this affair that you can use in court, in case she outright denies it, denies it was an affair, or "projects" the affair on to you and claims you're actually the one who cheated (strange things can happen with a pwBPD). 

That being said, if I remember your story, wasn't your wife pushing for you to give her permission to have this affair? 

[PeteWitsend]

...

All in all - right now I feel more relaxed and hopeful than I have been in a long time.

It's nice, isn't it? 

I remember feeling like I was born again. 

I could listen to music without worrying about whether someone might find a song lyric upsetting, and start screaming at me.

I could watch movies without worrying that there might be a comment from someone, a sex scene, an attractive actress, etc. that would upset someone or they would decide I was secretly lusting after and... spoil the movie by screaming at me and storming off.

I could do nothing at all if I wanted, without someone walking up and demanding to know if I was thinking about another woman, and start a fight.

I could wake up in the morning without worrying that someone had a dream where I cheated on them, and start a fight...

Etc. etc. etc.

[Under The Bridge]

Right now, the positives far outweigh the negatives.  I get time to myself or just me and the kids.  My anxiety level is much lower, stress related ailments are lessening, I feel like I can concentrate on my job more, and I am getting more done around the house.  Also - I have more time to spend with the people I want to spend time with and doing the things I want to do.

Good to see. I don't think we truly realise how deeply draining it can be in a BPD relationship until we start getting a taste of normality again and see the vast difference. To simply go out with friends and have a totally drama-free time without having to be on guard and walk on eggshells is such a relief.

You'll need to hold very firm boundaries when she inevitably splits from the woman she's seeing and tries to start the chaos again. She might not mind the see-sawing back and forth - that's BPD for you - but you need to put yourself first and not lose the normality that you've gained. Onwards and upwards.

[Notwendy]

Good to see. I don't think we truly realise how deeply draining it can be in a BPD relationship until we start getting a taste of normality again and see the vast difference. To simply go out with friends and have a totally drama-free time without having to be on guard and walk on eggshells is such a relief.

You'll need to hold very firm boundaries when she inevitably splits from the woman she's seeing and tries to start the chaos again. She might not mind the see-sawing back and forth - that's BPD for you - but you need to put yourself first and not lose the normality that you've gained. Onwards and upwards.

What you initially feared (her seeking a GF) has turned out to be a reprieve for you. I agree- don't expect it to last. IMHO, this is one more external "seeking solutions" for her emotional distress and she's in the early "highs" of a new relationship. But you know the outcome this pattern.

That she isn't helping at home isn't really much of a change. Seems like a small trade off for the time to yourself.

This probably doesn't need to be said- but don't reciprocate by you also finding someone. That would be chaos and drama.  Use the emotional space to reconnect with yourself and your kids. Also keep in mind that with BPD the "rules" apply to you but not to them. She would perceive it as a huge betrayal, even if she's doing it herself.

Wife with GF is an unconventional solution (and not likely to last) but it has given you a break from the chaos. It's a possible "exit" for you as it could be a deal breaker but, IMHO, only if you were to take action, and you'd have to decide on that if it were to happen.

Your wife now has what she imagines is the best of both worlds- your financial support, a family, a GF on the side, and no responsibilities at home. She would have no incentive to change this.

[Pook075]

Wife with GF is an unconventional solution (and not likely to last) but it has given you a break from the chaos. It's a possible "exit" for you as it could be a deal breaker but, IMHO, only if you were to take action, and you'd have to decide on that if it were to happen.

Your wife now has what she imagines is the best of both worlds- your financial support, a family, a GF on the side, and no responsibilities at home. She would have no incentive to change this.

I completely agree- why would I divorce someone who pays my bills and I barely ever see them...plus they don't seem to mind that I'm being unfaithful?  If that were my character and values (which is deplorable), I would never want to divorce.

This will be up to you to decide how to proceed and how much to tolerate.  Since there's kids involved, that complicates matters greatly and you have to figure out what to do when your wife wants the kids to spend time with the new partner.  If it hasn't happened yet, it's probably coming.  And I think that's where I'd draw a line in the sand- you and your friend aren't bad-mouthing me to the kids, changing their life values, and ultimately messing up their lives.

This has so many different ways to go sideways, so enjoy the peace while you can.  I think it's like a mirage in the desert....you think you're walking towards water, but it's actually quicksand.

[ForeverDad]

I'm not sure where this will go, but likely to a separation and divorce.

This may be tedious, but please continue documenting that you're doing the lion's share of parenting.  Try to be involved with the doctors, schools, parent-teacher meetings, etc.

Let the other continue at her own comfort level of minimal parenting.

Why?  You cannot depend upon your spouse to admit in a divorce that you are shouldering most of the parenting.  Especially if she is not working, her lawyer will tell her to claim she is the Mother and needs spousal and/or child support.  As strange as this sounds, court most likely will ignore much of the obvious mental health issues and behavior.  As father and a man you need every iota of majority parenting history on your side should the marriage end, otherwise many courts will default to automatically assigning the Mother equal time if not much more.

[maxsterling]

Wendy -

What I am recognizing is how much the marriage has drained all my energy.  The status quo is okay until I recharge.  And no - I have zero interest in finding someone of my own.  I have much to do for myself before I even think about that.

The new GF has been around the kids - and I am totally OK with that.  I would have issues if W found a girlfriend that I did not feel comfortable being around my kids.  The kids like her, she is fun and energetic and pays attention to them.  I do see this as a potential conflict between W and GF, but there really is none between GF and myself.  She is actually someone I have a lot in common with.  Her attitude reminds me of myself before I got married (interesting...)

GF is away for the next few weeks, and W is house sitting.  That has benefited me for sure.  W now says she wants her own space/place.  I have no issues with that (I'd welcome it), but today I got the same old broken record complaint:

- she has no money and can't afford her own place
- she has no credit, only debt, and nothing to her name (In a divorce, we would not be dividing assets, we would be dividing only debt)
- she claims she put aside her career to raise kids.  Not true.  It's her way of blaming the situation on me/marriage/having kids.  The reality is that she had nothing when we met (not even a stable job), has had numerous opportunities to work before kids and did not keep a job, has had numerous opportunities to work after having kids, and did not keep a job.  The irony here is she describes herself as a "feminist", yet is unwilling to take control of her own life and instead leans on me for everything.
- she feels hopeless.

I need to keep my response to this simple and in the present: 
"There is no way of having two places of residence without another income." 
"What do you want and how can you get there?"

I don't think she is capable of achieving this without help.  For purposes of peace and quiet in my own house, I'd be willing to help if she is willing to get a job.  I can't pay her rent, but I can do what I currently do - cover all the other bills and insurance.  Financially, it is a win for me if she moves out and pays her own rent and personal expenses.  The thing she needs to understand is that where we live, it is a "community property state", and divorce not only means divide the assets, but divide the debt.  If she wanted to get divorced, she is then legally responsible for half the debt payments.   

Foreverdad - that is the wise thing to do, for sure.  There are endless witnesses to my favor, if that matters, including the kids themselves.  And W is not the type to do more than threaten because she has an intense fear of her own life being put under judgement.  Nonetheless, I am keeping track of what I do, and keeping documentation of things she has said. 

[maxsterling]

To add:  Frankly, I have no issues with "equal time", because I know how it will eventually end up.  If the court forced her to be with the kids half the time, that's 40% more than she has them now.  It may not be best for the kids to be around mom that much, but from my end it's a win.

[ForeverDad]

Family court will allow a lot of "He said... She said..." then ignore it as hearsay and move on.  Same for the posturing for money or to avoid the debts; it will be dealt with following the court's policies and procedures nearer the end of a divorce.

From what you've been saying, she may not be likely to start a divorce.  So that ball may be in your court - sports pun intended.

Let's not forget the children.  What is best for the children?  They are accustomed to the current dysfunction, more or less it's what they've known all their lives.  Naturally they want more stability and normalcy - if they even deep down know what that is - be they won't want to be fought over and especially not stuck in the middle.

One thing I learned from my own divorce years ago...  My lawyer told me courts love counseling.  It may be a lost cause for the disordered parents, but it is so excellent for the children.  If finances are limited and the children aren't already being helped with sessions, ponder how much the {free} school counselors can help.  Something is better than nothing.

[Notwendy]

From what you've been saying, she may not be likely to start a divorce. 

She has no reason at all to start a divorce. Her "complaining" that motherhood stopped her career" - this is her "rewriting history" to avoid shame and avoid her issues being discovered, which I assume hasn't happened yet with new GF.

The serial "pie in the sky" wishful and magical thinking - wanting the next thing- the new house, the  place of her own, the GF, because she thinks this is going to be the solution for her discomfort- you've seen that and you've seen that if she attains it- in time, there's another wish.

Even if your wife has complaints, this situation is working for her. Only if this new GF is able to and willing to provide for her better, take on the role of emotional caretaker,  and things progress to this point would she possibly consider it. Since relationships with pwBPD tend to be unstable, I don't think it's realistic to count on this if you want this. The more likely situation (IMHO) is that once "reality" sets in with this relationship- as it does for everyone to some extent after the initial newness, it would fall apart.

This relationship is like dating in high school. Parents pay the bills, there's no children to be responsible for, no worries about jobs, a mortgage, saving for retirement. The most responsibility a teen carries is usually schoolwork and a part time job. The relationship feels idyllic. Marriage involves work, childcare, it's a more mature commitment that teens aren't ready for. This is working for the GF too. She doesn't have to support your wife or share the care of the kids. They can have fun together while someone else does that. The reality of a long term relationship hasn't set in for them and it may be that the GF doesn't want that- she just wants what they have now. This situation doesn't necessarily lead to your wife divorcing you for this.

If you want to end the marriage, you will need to do that task but from your posts, it doesn't seem to be what you want to do at the moment. I think you'd be OK if she did it, but for you to do it, you'd need to take action. On the topic of boundaries- boundaries are what we act on. If infidelity was a boundary- that line was crossed when your wife went on a dating site. I'm not being judgmental or preaching morals- what two people do is between them and if both are OK with this, then it's not an issue in the marriage. It's that she did it and it wasn't OK with you but you adapted to it. It's not a boundary on which you will act- but boundaries are individual ones and so you can choose to tolerate this.

I watched this dynamic between my parents and it can go on for the long term. Dad mostly went along with BPD mother's wishes, and so, her wishes took the lead in the family. It seemed as if she could do what she wanted and without consequences, which isn't how the real world works, but it worked for her because this is what their arrangement was.

In every marriage there is the need for compromise and forgiveness, and to overlook some behaviors but also, people have boundaries- which are the very limits of what someone will tolerate. What behaviors are so intolerable that one can't remain married? Only you can decide what that is for you.

[CC43]

Hi there,

The situation you describe is disconcerting to me.  Though you're benefitting from a temporary break from your BPD wife's daily chaos, and that is a wonderful reprieve, it's at the expense of infidelity.  What's more, she's establishing a track record of being completely dependent on you, not unlike an adult child living with you--free room and board, no household responsibilities, allowed to come and go whenever she pleases, with access to a "parental ATM."  She enjoys adult freedoms without the corresponding adult responsibilities.  And now she's creating the narrative that she "sacrificed" her "career" to take care of kids.  In my opinion, an issue here is that if you do decide to separate, you might be on the hook for alimony, long-term.  And your wife might be awarded more time with the kids than she should, because she's telling the story that she "sacrificed" her life to raise them.

Anyway, I think the general advice here is to document, document, document.  That would include evidence of how much you are caring for the kids, and any indications of neglect or abusive behavior by mom.  You could keep records of who transports the kids, who takes them to doctor's appointments, who attends meetings with teachers, etc.  Maybe you take a cute picture of the kids every day as they head off to daycare, school or activities as documentation.  Also, I would think twice about permitting your wife to have any extra spending money from you, because I think that would potentially be used against you as a baseline for future alimony.  I've seen situations where a spouse was considering divorce and increased spending in the months before filing, seemingly just to establish a higher level of ongoing financial support from the ex.  Let the new romantic interest pay for stuff if they want to.

[ForeverDad]

In most states alimony appears to be viewed as short term support to enable the disadvantaged spouse to transition into post-marital life.  That can include career training.  Also, as happened in my case, if the disadvantaged spouse gets equal or more parenting time on the official schedule, then the ex-spouse also gets child support.  (In recent years the law changed and now CS is post-tax which would mean that you would pay CS after you first paid taxes on those earnings.)

This time last week after a particularly bad episode, I was pretty sure I needed to end this relationship.  After a few days of thinking, I was 99% sure I wanted to work harder about making it work.  But now I am back to being on the fence, or at least on the fence about being on the fence.  And I know I need to set some firm and clear boundaries in order to protect myself, so that the "fence" becomes so narrow that I can no longer ride atop it...  Last Friday, she hit me.

I briefly went back and reviewed some of your early posts such as the one above.  You weren't married then so it appears your children aren't teenagers yet.  Yet the gist of your posts is similar to today.  She hasn't made substantive progress toward recovery.  And the issues are the same old, same old?  Would you agree you've been in a holding pattern (airplane reference) all these dozen years?

I'm not fluent with all the therapeutic terms but I wonder if co-dependence applies here.  It wouldn't be your fault since it may be this is influence from your childhood FOO (family of origin).  Just thinking outside the box...

[Notwendy]

This time last week after a particularly bad episode, I was pretty sure I needed to end this relationship.  After a few days of thinking, I was 99% sure I wanted to work harder about making it work.  But now I am back to being on the fence, or at least on the fence about being on the fence. 

FD- you just found what I experienced as a "flip" in my father's thinking. At one moment he seemed aware of the issues with my BPD mother and then, it was as if nothing happened. It also seemed to parallel my BPD mother's way of suddenly erasing in her mind what had just happened and she was "acting good now" at least for the moment. I saw this happen many times. During the times BPD mother appeared relatively "good"- it's as if he somehow was in a state of forgetfulness. It was this dual mindset that seemed to keep them in this relationship pattern.

The status quo seemed to be this. BPD mother had her behaviors, and Dad's response was enabling/compliance. While at times it seemed things might have gotten so difficult he might consider divorce- the situation might settle and then, it was as if whatever happened didn't happen.

But we kids did see what happened and it seemed that no matter what my BPD mother did- it didn't change this pattern. We talk about boundaries here but boundaries are the bottom line for us- what would we act on. What are actions we don't ignore or go along with? I don't wish to post all the behaviors we either witnessed or experienced, but some were similar to what Max has posted about and yet, each time, there was this "flip" in his thinking and actions. If there's nothing that prompts taking action, then these are not boundaries.

I also agree with CC43's post about how enabling fosters a perpetual dependency, and how not having boundaries or consequences or responsibilities perpetuates a child-like existence and mindset. How this happens seems to be a chicken-egg question. Was this enabling an adaptation to BPD mother's disability or did it keep her that way? And why did my father enable? I don't know. I think one thing was that it gave him a momentary reprieve from her behavior, and when BPD mother was escalating, in the moment, one wanted relief.

I think people balk at the term co-dependency because, they aren't the dependent ones in the traditional sense. Dad was the wage earner, the more emotionally stable one. I also am an independent type person- so when a counselor brought up co-dependency with me, it didn't make sense but I took her advice and went along with it. Eventually I understood more about the concept and why she made that recommendation.

FD mentioned family of origin and this can be where this starts, because these traits are seen as positive in the FOO and also in general- caring, compassionate, able to tolerate a lot. These were the "normal" in my family and they aren't bad traits in general. It's when they are done to the extreme, and perpetuate dysfunction, that they are considered co-dependent.

We may not see our own co-dependent behaviors as problematic if they were the "normal" in our FOO. Or they may be an adaptation to the dynamics in a relationship with a person who has a disorder.

In general, people don't take action to change unless a situation becomes so intollerable they see change as the only option. If someone is being enabled and doesn't experience consequences of hurtful behavior- there's not motivation to change. Same for the person who is in the enabling position. Perhaps it's a difficult situation but is it difficult enough to take action?

[Notwendy]

It helps if a counselor identifies co-dependency but I also think we can comprehend and identify it, but not on an official diagnosis. There isn't a specific medicine for it. Because it involves actions that are also considered to be good ones- helping, being supportive, it's not something one seeks to "cure" or stop completely. The line between helping and helping too much is an internal one- we have to learn to identify it.

The addiction model has been applied to co-dependency and it helps make sense of it. Any behavior can be an addiction and an aspect of that is doing something to one's detriment and not being able to stop. The occasional trip to Las Vegas for fun, or occasionally shopping for something for fun, is not an addiction. Gambling or shopping, to the point of financial ruin, causing family stress- and doing it anyway is. An aspect of co-dependent behavior is doing something for someone that they can do for themselves.

Choosing to do something nice for someone or looking the other way at behaviors at times is not co-dependency. A pattern of doing this to the point of being harmful in some ways possibly is.

A person who is addicted will continue addiction behavior to the point of their own detriment, because- they must still be getting something out of the behavior that is, to them, greater than the negative effect- even if it doesn't seem so to them. The concept of "hitting bottom", when things get so bad, is when they have the chance of choosing to change.

I think, in a relationship with BPD, there's a push-pull to the relationship. The situation may get to a sort of bottom, with the pwBPD doing something that is - in the moment- not tolerable. But also, I think they too have some sense of when they went too far, because if they sense they have- they can also flip to "good" again. Then the "bottom" is gone and the partner's motivation to take action is also gone too. Then it seems "not so bad".

Tolerating BPD mother's behavior was normalized in our family. We were all in the roles of emotional caretaker and helper to her. For me, people pleasing, not having boundaries, tolerating behaviors were learned ones. I had to unlearn them and learn more functional ones.

Another motivation for me to consider the idea of co-dependency was seeing the result of it. Co-dependent behaviors appear to be doing something good but are actually self serving and possibly harmful to the other person in the long run. If the motivation to appease and enable BPD mother is for relief of the situation, it was about us, not helping her. If we did things for her and managed her emotions, she then didn't have the experience of managing these tasks herself and learning how to do that, if it were ever possible.

Some of the things that were tolerated and enabled to the point of harm were- financial damage due to BPD mother's spending and not understanding how to handle money and limits with money, emotional and relationship harm due to abusive behavior and dishonesty. There were no consequences for this behavior and so it continued.  It was cyclic. "Good Mom" would appear right after things may have been bad, and "Good Mom" was great. 

Nobody can fully understand all of a relationship beween two people. From the outside, it appeared to be a high cost relationship for my father and yet, somehow that cost wasn't high enough to take some action- and I don't just mean divorce, it could be standing up for boundaries to start with.

But that was a hard thing to do because, having boundaries with BPD mother resulted in extreme escalation. She could raise the escalation past the point where anyone could tolerate it.  BPD caused her to seriously struggle.  She was in emotional distress and seeking some sort of relief. It was a natural response to want to help relieve it if possible and hard to resist doing. 

So back to you Max, and the idea of co-dependency. I'm not a professional and couldn't "label" you, even if I was. But what we can see from your posts is that things seem relatively stable at times and then, something happens that challenges your own values- harmful behavior to you or others, infidelity, and then, at these times, you feel shocked and hurt, and consider the possibility of ending the relationship but then, things calm down a bit, and it doesn't seem so bad.

However, by tolerating the behavior- you've given up a part of yourself, your own core value, and at the same time, made the behavior allowable for your wife. She can continue it without consequences. While it's given you a reprieve of the behavior, and a temporary relief of discomfort for your wife, it's not a positive for you, or for her in the long run. In this context, the idea of co-dependent behaviors could fit, if you wish to consider it. This is a long term relationship dynamic and if you wish to change it, any change would have to be on your part. It would be a challenge to change it, and a challenge to maintain it but the decision is yours to make in whatever way you decide would work for your situation.