What's the use of calling it abuse?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

The other week, a friend I had confided in at length about my experience with uBPDx told me there would be steps forward and back as I recovered, and that 'this is normal in getting over an abusive relationship'.

I didn't necessarily see the relationship as abusive (though certain acts within it, were), but I didn't challenge friend's terminology since the dynamic seemed accurate.

Yesterday, I was chatting to another friend and said something like, it's funny that person used the word 'abuse' although obviously it wasn't. Other friend gave me this look of like, 'are you crazy?' and asked how I could possibly say that after having written out and described the series of events in such detail to them.

I have some complicated feelings about this. One is to wonder whether I've misrepresented or exaggerated in some way. But with both these friends, I've been very careful to set out the facts in detail and at length, including my own misdeeds and mistakes. So I don't think their assessment is due to my 'putting a finger on the scale', so to speak.

A belief I have is that the word 'abuse' should be used carefully and precisely lest it obscure more than it clarify. My own definition involves the repeated use of a pre-existing power dynamic to do harm, and/or actions which both harm another person and entrench power over them, thus creating a power dynamic.

For example, according to my own definition, uBPDx cheating on me was a toxic, harmful act, but it was not abusive. However, belittling and insulting me for being upset about it afterwards, was. To harm someone and then denigrate them for reacting is abusive, as it reduces their ability to identify and protect themselves from harmful acts in future.

I'm curious as to what people think the significance of designating a relationship as 'abusive', is. Is it a moral thing - the harms that came to me were not my fault? I believe this - however, this can also be true for relationships that are not abusive.

Is it a causal thing - there was nothing I could have done to avoid the harm? I think this is incorrect. There was nothing I could have done to save the relationship, but I think there were, in fact, many things I could have done to avoid harm.

Does it imply something about the obligations of other people around me and uBPDx?

Does it imply some kind of judgement about uBPDx?

Is it useful primarily as a descriptive term, or as something almost quantitative - a way of identifying that the harms are ?

What do you think?

[hotchip]

The other week, a friend I had confided in at length about my experience with uBPDx told me there would be steps forward and back as I recovered, and that 'this is normal in getting over an abusive relationship'.

I didn't necessarily see the relationship as abusive (though certain acts within it, were), but I didn't challenge friend's terminology since the dynamic seemed accurate.

Yesterday, I was chatting to another friend and said something like, it's funny that person used the word 'abuse' although obviously it wasn't. Other friend gave me this look of like, 'are you crazy?' and asked how I could possibly say that after having written out and described the series of events in such detail to them.

I have some complicated feelings about this. One is to wonder whether I've misrepresented or exaggerated in some way. But with both these friends, I've been very careful to set out the facts in detail and at length, including my own misdeeds and mistakes. So I don't think their assessment is due to my 'putting a finger on the scale', so to speak.

A belief I have is that the word 'abuse' should be used carefully and precisely lest it obscure more than it clarify. My own definition involves the repeated use of a pre-existing power dynamic to do harm, and/or actions which both harm another person and entrench power over them, thus creating a power dynamic.

For example, according to my own definition, uBPDx cheating on me was a toxic, harmful act, but it was not abusive. However, belittling and insulting me for being upset about it afterwards, was. To harm someone and then denigrate them for reacting is abusive, as it reduces their ability to identify and protect themselves from harmful acts in future.

I'm curious as to what people think the significance of designating a relationship as 'abusive', is. Is it a moral thing - the harms that came to me were not my fault? I believe this - however, this can also be true for relationships that are not abusive.

Is it a causal thing - there was nothing I could have done to avoid the harm? I think this is incorrect. There was nothing I could have done to save the relationship, but I think there were, in fact, many things I could have done to avoid harm.

Does it imply something about the obligations of other people around me and uBPDx?

Does it imply some kind of judgement about uBPDx?

Is it useful primarily as a descriptive term, or as something almost quantitative - a way of identifying that the harms are ?

What do you think?

[hotchip]

*a way of identifying that the harms are very serious

[CC43]

Hi there,

Abuse might be traditionally thought as physical, but it can be emotional as well.  Take the situation of someone beating their spouse, for example if the spouse stayed out "too long" running errands or waved hello to a neighbor of the opposite sex.  A beating in that scenario would be considered abusive.  But let's say that instead of a physical beating, it's a verbal one:  shouting, insults, false accusations (e.g. of having an affair), threats (e.g. of divorce), a total meltdown.  The spouse might feel that they are subject to a curfew or house arrest, because going out without "permission," or saying hello to another human being, leads to a verbal onslaught.  The "rules" apply only to the abused party, whereby the disordered spouse exerts inordinate control, while the disordered spouse is free to do whatever he pleases.  The verbal attacks are abusive because they are unwarranted, not proportional to the situation, mean, bullying, intimidating and designed to control, alienate and restrict freedoms.  The mere threat of retribution might be enough to bend the abused person's will, and maybe they start to question history and their very identity.

At the end of the day, emotional abuse can be extremely alienating, in the sense that you're not only alienated from family and friends, but also alienated from your true self . . . disconnected from your own emotions, needs and identity, leading to chronic stress and living in survival mode.  Does that sound about right?

[ForeverDad]

And "abuse" would indicate a need to take corrective action whereas "poor behavior" may not be considered to need a strong countermeasure.

Related to this, we often mention that the "acting out" personality disorder traits (Cluster B ... Narcissistic, Borderline, Antisocial, Histrionic) are generally harmful to others while some of the other PD have traits are "acting-in" which tend to be more toward self-harm.

[PeteWitsend]

In my mind the word "abuse" implies a repetitive pattern... whether it's abusing a substance like alcohol, or abusing another person.  A single instance of some sort of negative or hostile behavior toward another is a fight.  It could be a one-and-done event, for whatever reason: to establish dominance, to blow off steam, to right a wrong, to deter someone from doing something, or to steal something. 

He's had a bad day and he snaps at you when you say you're tired and don't want to get dinner out.  Is that abuse?  Maybe not.  It's not great, but in an otherwise good relationship, it's forgivable.  But if it becomes a pattern, then it's abuse. 

Abusive conduct toward another, as I see it, is to condition them to accepting a certain role in a relationship between people. 

I do think the word itself can get overused - or abused if you will - but it has a very real definition, and it happens.

[Notwendy]

I think we assume abuse is done with intent by an evil person. Actually, abusive relationships are not all bad and neither is the abusive person necessarily evil or doing so with intent to harm. Rather, they are cyclic, with the person being caring and loving and sometimes even remorseful in between. This is why they can be confusing. It also involves two people. People wonder why the abused person doesn't just leave, but it's actually difficult for people to leave an abusive relationship due to the cyclic nature of them.

What's the point of naming abuse abuse? It's not to vilify someone or to blame or not blame. It's to not sugar coat it. It is what it is. So call it that.

I think an aspect of the partner in these relationships is sometimes a sense of denial or minimizing the behavior due to the other qualities of the person or the experience. But abuse has an impact and it helps to identify it for the purpose of dealing with it, in therapy.

Friends will have an opinion and possibly agree/take sides but that isn't a theraputic situation. I think therapy is helpful to anyone who has experienced abusive behavior- no matter what kind or severe. The label is more helpful to them in that sense.

 

[Pook075]

To me, abuse is someone repetitively saying or doing something that harms you- and that could be physically or mentally.

For instance, someone lying about something.  That's not abuse.  But if they continue lying about different things and our relationship is completely built on a stack of lies, then yeah, it's abusive.  My BPD daughter comes to mind where she'd ask for $10-50 daily for gas and food, yet she was buying drugs and alcohol.  If I said no, she'd scream and rage about what a terrible father I was.  That was abuse...and not just the yelling part.  The being nice to me part to manipulate me to give her money was just as abusive because it was being done with bad intentions.

There's also one-off abuse as well- which I think we don't have to define.  Hitting, insulting, belittling, manipulating...all that is certain abuse.  But I think we'd differ on when it reaches that level to call it abusive.  For instance, someone pushes me because they're rushing to the bathroom and I'm blocking their way...is that abusive?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  You'd have to see a little bit more of the relationship to really have an understanding.

I'll add one more thing- friends and family usually know better than we do if our relationships are abusive.  We tend to brush off so much as regular daily cohabitating that it all begins to feel normal.  Oh, my partner is moody in the mornings, that's just how they are.  Or, he only hits me when he's drinking heavily, it's my fault for saying something that upset him.  When we're so close to it, we can see something completely different from the actual truth.

Bottom line, if someone is acting in a way that harms you over a period of time, that's abuse.  Everyone has bad days so again, I'm not talking about a one-off incident where someone loses their cool and shouts for a few minutes.  If it happens once, probably not abuse.  It it happens weekly, then yeah...it's probably an abusive relationship.

[CC43]

Bottom line, if someone is acting in a way that harms you over a period of time, that's abuse.  Everyone has bad days so again, I'm not talking about a one-off incident where someone loses their cool and shouts for a few minutes.  If it happens once, probably not abuse.  It it happens weekly, then yeah...it's probably an abusive relationship.

I agree with Pook on this one.  Sometimes I think of abuse as the punishments not fitting the crimes.  The abusive behavior (punishment) seems unreasonable and disproportionate, as well as causes significant harm, rather than serving a legitimate disciplinary, educational or corrective purpose.  Oftentimes the abusive behavior will exploit a power imbalance, financial dependence, or some sort of weakness, such as feelings of fear, obligation or guilt.  Maybe there's no physical harm to you, but rather to your property, reputation, self-esteem or other important relationships.  Maybe some harsh words are uttered, but the level of harm depends on the context, for example accusations made in private vs. in public with the intent to damage your reputation.

You might wonder, how could a seemingly defenseless child or weak person succeed in abusing others but not actually cause any physical damage?  I've seen examples which I call "spoiling" behavior.  Let's say there's a wedding, family funeral, vacation or work event that is really important to you.  A pwBPD could be abusive by staging some sort of massive meltdown, attempting to sabotage an important moment for you.  And it's not just limited to one spoiled moment, but a pattern of meltdowns whenever you face an event that is important to you.  I think that could qualify as abusive, too, if the meltdowns are severe and recurrent enough.  I suspect other readers on this site will know exactly what I mean here.

Pook mentions a possible example of abuse, where a BPD child will lie/manipulate/exploit parents for money, typically to buy things that the parent didn't intend, such as illicit substances.  Demanding money for school but not actually attending classes is an example.  Demanding money or a co-signer for housing but then abandoning or destroying the property might be another.  Asking parents to buy a cars/auto insurance and then repeatedly crashing them while driving under the influence might be another example.  I'm not talking about a genuine mistake or accident, but a pattern of manipulation, deceit and exploitation over time, with a heavy dose of blame-shifting too.  In addition, there's a total lack of accountability and responsibility on the part of the abuser.  The relationship feels completely lopsided:  all take and no give.  And that is abusive in my humble opinion.

[hotchip]

Thank you for your insights all! What we've got so far:

Abuse is 'unwarranted, not proportional to the situation' and also 'designed to control, alienate and restrict freedoms' (CC43)

It indicates 'a need to take corrective action' (ForeverDad)

It 'implies a repetitive pattern' that 'conditions [the abused person] to take a certain role in a relationship between people' (PeteWitsend)

It is cyclic (NotWendy)

It is 'repetitively saying or doing something that harms you' (Pook)

It is a 'pattern' and entails behaviour that is 'unreasonable and disproportionate, as well as causing significant harm' (CC43)

It seems like what we're coming back to is the idea that abuse involves repetition, that it conditions or shapes the relationship in a particular way, and that the harm is serious/ disproportionate.

In the case of uBPDx, there was an ongoing pattern of him describing and defining me as 'cruel' and 'horrible' for actions that were not cruel and horrible at all. He would use guilt if I was not perpetually available for his emotional and logistical needs.

For example, if I was in bed and did not want to fix his computer problems at that particular time, he would go into an audible monologue about how he was 'alone. I am completely alone. And I just have to accept that...' He would tap me on the shoulder in the middle of my doing another task on my laptop, and if I didn't respond would accuse me of wanting him to '________ off'.

We worked together and for a period, I was extremely burned out, and said I didn't want to talk about certain aspects of work at home. He would manouveure round this by saying something like, 'oh, you'll never GUESS what I did about [work related action here]... oh, yeah, I'm not supposed to talk about it.'

Over time, and in response to this environment, I became snappy and irritable - for example, he asked me if pulling a USB stick out had damaged it and I shrugged and said 'I don't know' in a 'don't bother me' tone of voice. He described this as me being more horrible to him than anyone else, ever, in his life.

I ended up internalising this view - I genuinely believed my actions were cruel and horrible - it took weeks of friends explaining to me that it was not proportionate.

There was some other manipulative behaviour from him, and one highly toxic and harmful action from me.

Basically, uBPDx was extremely mentally ill and depressed for much of our relationship. For a several month period, he would express suicidal ideation to me at least once and often multiple times per day - we're talking at least a hundred times and likely more. Sometimes this would be in situations of acute distress, at others it would be quite casual.

I found this somewhat traumatising, especially having lost a close friend to suicide previously in very proximate circumstances, and told him this. His response was - this is basically verbatim - 'ngl, this makes it harder for me to come to you if I'm suicidal'.

I assisted him to gain eligibility for medical appointments, but he sought no appointments and did not even look up information about what was available. I also encouraged him and directed him towards free services such as mindfulness classes.   

He also stated that the reason for his suicidality was his strong commitment to certain moral/ ideological values, which he and I nominally shared and were the basis of our relationship. (Apologies for being vague here - it's a very specific situation).

Some months later, I found out that he had severely violated these ideological values and did not see it as a problem. In my anger, I shouted '________ing kill yourself!'. Immediately after I retracted this ('No, no, don't kill yourself').

I believe my action here was toxic and harmful. It is toxic to tell a mentally ill person to kill themself, under any circumstances. If it was repeated or became a pattern, this would be abusive. I did not repeat this action. I never said anything like that to uBPDx again.

My action was also reactive to a a particular context - being constantly exposed to suicidal ideation, asking not to be, and having that request rebuffed. It did not reflect me setting up a cycle of getting power over another person. In fact, I tried *not* to be the person who was solely responsible for or relied upon by uBPDx in his poor mental health.

For these reasons, I believe my action was toxic rather than abusive.   

uBPDx continued to express suicidality and enact mental health meltdowns directed at me throughout the relationship, in one case spending 3.5 hours spiralling and telling me things like I was disappointing to them. He also got in my face and almost yelled that he was thinking of hurting himself, then berated me for not reacting appropriately. ('I'm telling you I want to hurt myself, and you're not reacting! You're supposed to be the person closest to me and you're not reacting!')

In hindsight, I believe this was controlling as it used threats of self-harm to demand or elicit a particular reaction from me. The meltdown also started basically apropos of nothing - just before, we'd gone out for a nice dinner.

There were other meltdowns - he would frequently ascribe his negative emotional state to me. A common quote was, 'I feel only anger, and YOU made me that way.'

 

 

[ForeverDad]

You will find frequent mention of BPD "FOG" on this site and elsewhere.

• Fear ... of threats, pressure, intimidation, disparagement, etc
• Obligation ... which doesn't let us see the dysfunctional relationship objectively
• Guilt ... if we decide the relationship is unhealthy, since we are indoctrinated "It's All Your Fault!"

[Pook075]

My BPD ex would often feel down and depressed as well, and her answer to feel better was running off to save someone else.  That could be helping her parents do something, one of her brothers, one of her friends, our kids or one of their friends, someone in our extended family, etc.

And on the surface, you'd think that's a good thing, making time to help others.

At the same time though, as her mental illness got worse over the years, she was always on the run when she wasn't at work.  Sometimes the kids were with her, sometimes not.  But she was gone almost every waking hour for nearly a decade in our marriage.  Entire weekends would disappear when we had clear plans.  And if I said something, I'd always get the same answer, "But my brother needed me."  "But my dad wanted me to go with him."  But that woman that I work with wanted me to come by."

So I'd ask, "But what about our plans?  Five weekends in a row, you've disappeared."  Or it was something like, "We've talked about doing this other thing for six months now."

Sometimes it was something simple, like getting groceries together.  Other times, it was visiting something new in our area or fixing something at home.  It was never anything major that I couldn't do alone, but I'd wait all of Saturday on the promise, "I'll be home in an hour or two" and then most of Sunday as well.  The weekend would just vanish with me waiting and waiting, so I wouldn't start anything big because she'd be home any minute now.  Yet she never arrived until 8 PM, 10 PM, or whatever.

Does this sound like abuse?  Maybe no.  But once it happened 10 times, 100 times, 1000 times, I was just as trained as the family dog to sit and stay, to be a good boy.  It was absolutely an abusive pattern and I couldn't see it or understand what was actually happening.

Now, if my wife wanted us to do something and I said I was too busy, it was a very different story.  She'd pout around the house and make it known what a disappointment I was.  Or if I spent a few hours with a friend on occasion, I'd get texts and attitude once I returned home.  That's because we always did what she wanted to do when she felt like being in a relationship with her husband.  It was a massive double standard and I couldn't see it....because abuse requires screaming, hitting, and stuff like that, right?

That's why some of this is so hard to define- it doesn't look like what we'd call abuse by the traditional definition.  Yet it's just as damaging mentally when you're in the middle of it all and it's certainly an abusive pattern.

[Notwendy]

I think the term is most useful to you, in context of what you wish for in a relationship. Since this one has ended, what can you learn from this?

Some forms of abuse are obvious- physical abuse that leaves marks,  injuries, is obvious. Emotional and verbal abuse is still harmful but hard to prove or even see.

Abusive behavior may not only be in a romantic relationship. It can be with friendships, co-workers, employers, family members.

Where I began to understand what abuse is is when a local DV shelter was selling T shirts for a fundraiser. The statement on the shirt simply said "Love Doesn't Hurt". It didn't define abuse, but made the point that if someone is feeling hurt a lot, and often, in a relationship, or friendship, maybe that relationship is not good for that person.

I think in all relationships, there's some times where someone is hurful to the other person. Maybe they are tired and irritable and say something snappy to them. It's when the hurtful behavior is frequent, or cyclic, and crosses the line- saying something snappy vs name calling, cussing, constant criticism. It doesn't matter what the definition is. If you find yourself feeling hurt a lot of the time. If your partner dismisses it with more criticism "you are too sensitive" or blames you for it- you don't have to accept this.

Whatever anyone calls it- the behavior and dynamics in your relationship with your ex were hurtful to you. It's not only about blame- it can be an observation for you to make a decision about. Labeling your ex's behaviors as abuse doesn't affect your ex but it can be something helpful to you- so if you experience them in another relationship you can decide- this isn't good for you and end it rather than let it go on. You can believe you deserve to be treated decently in any kind of relationship. You are the value in identifying it- you are worth it.

[Me88]

I know that I had some issues with calling it abuse initially. Maybe cause I'm a guy and thought I couldn't be 'abused' by a small woman. Just saw it as high conflict. Everyone I talked to called it abuse. I've accepted that I was abused now. It's a very strange to be , an abuse survivor. Still sounds embarrassing to me.

This also sounds weird, I'd rather be physically abused than emotionally and verbally. We all stayed in those relationships far too long because we justified the bad behavior. I imagine if we accepted we were being abused earlier we would have left less broken.

A year and a half after the breakup, I am still healing. It feels like we just broke up some days. Very strange. I've never had this much of an issue after any other breakup.

[Notwendy]

I know that I had some issues with calling it abuse initially. Maybe cause I'm a guy and thought I couldn't be 'abused' by a small woman. Just saw it as high conflict. Everyone I talked to called it abuse. I've accepted that I was abused now. It's a very strange to be , an abuse survivor. Still sounds embarrassing to me.

This is a huge misconception- and I think this is cultural. Men are expected to be stronger and the protectors. The size difference does make women more vulnerable to physical abuse but that doesn't mean it can't happen that women are abusive too. Emotional and verbal abuse are not size or strength dependent. I also think female abuse to males is undereported due to men feeling embarrassed about being abused by a woman. Female abuse to men happens. It's real and men who have experienced this deserve recognition and support, just as women have.

[ForeverDad]

Also, let me relate something that happened with me so you won't be caught off guard by trick questions and tripped up by your normal feelings which can easily be used against you.  When my then-separated spouse and I were in court with allegations against each other, her lawyer asked me, "Do you want her back?"  I was aware that he had just asked me my weight compared to hers, alluding that a weight difference ought to make her fearful of me, I knew he was angling to paint me as a controller who wanted his target back under his control.  So I answered, "Not the way she is."

You will find many nuggets of wisdom here.  Sadly, sometimes we didn't think of them until afterward when our golden opportunity was past.  Here is one possible response to be prepared to use in case your spouse ever alleges she's fearful of you because you're much larger than she is...

... . in court during mutual protection cases, when I testified about her actions and her threats, her attorney asked me if I weighed more than her (of course) wanted to divorce (of course not) then he said I must want to control her.  Huh?  How could he ever say that of me?  I just said no.  I should have replied (remember this, guys, in your own testimonies and cross-examinations) our child is smaller than both of us, should our child fear us because we're bigger?  Anyway, he then asked if I wanted her back home that night, I guess still pursuing that 'controlling husband' strategy.  Fortunately, I said, No, not the way she is.

[DesertDreamer]

Hi, also just chiming in to say that this has become a consideration of mine in the last week. I talked to my friend about some of my relationship experiences, and they said "oh that's abuse," and what I did was try to talk them back from the word. I probably said something like "oh I wouldn't say it's abuse, I'd say it's mistreatment or something."

So I get feeling like it's a big term - it carries a lot of baggage with it, culturally and perhaps personally. It's hard to look at having been in an abusive situation. It's hard to let the painful memories have their full presence. But even in considering the word abuse this last week, I more solidly feel that what I experienced was emotional abuse. It took me stumbling upon the term "covert emotional abuse," to see my experience reflected. This was the case with accepting that my partner had some traits of BPD as well - maybe since I was unfamiliar with BPD, or maybe because what other people described as BPD didn't line up quite with what I was seeing, I wasn't always comfortable saying that my partner had BPD traits. Same goes for emotionally abusive.

Now I can see a few things more clearly. For one example, she'd get hung up on *how* I said something instead of paying attention to my ask/feelings (in situations when I knew I'd said something calmly and with care). In the course of the relationship, that led to me painstakingly constructing my explanations, remaking them over and over again, as many times as she took issue with them. No success there. I should be able to share feelings with a partner, or with any adult in my life that I share trust and relationship with. I should be able to offer my thoughts in good faith, and have them received. People can meet each other in process, and it can lead to more love and acceptance, not anguish and confusion. I know this from healthy friendships, and there's no reason a romantic relationship should be different, let alone worse.

[Pook075]

I should be able to share feelings with a partner, or with any adult in my life that I share trust and relationship with. I should be able to offer my thoughts in good faith, and have them received. People can meet each other in process, and it can lead to more love and acceptance, not anguish and confusion. I know this from healthy friendships, and there's no reason a romantic relationship should be different, let alone worse.

My current wife, who's not mentally ill, picked up that my ex used to deny my ability to express feelings.  So she does the same thing and will say, "Stop pretending, that didn't hurt you..." when she knows I just bumped my knee or whatever common thing we do to get hurt occasionally. 

It will always catch me off guard and I'll give her a mean look, then she'll just start laughing at me as she asks if I'm okay.  The way she handles feelings/emotional stuff like that makes it so obvious that what I had before wasn't healthy.  So even if you're not calling it "abuse", that doesn't make it normal or acceptable.  In a relationship, two people take care of each other- that's "normal."

[hotchip]

Thank you for these perspectives and insights!

I think that for me, for now, the question of 'was it or wasn't it an abusive relationship' is not something that needs to be resolved in any objective sense, since there isn't any singular diagnosis or test for emotional abuse. But the fact that there is a reasonable case for it to be described as abusive, tells me enough about the seriousness of the situation and the importance of getting out, as well as the limitations of my own perspective - I couldn't see what seems quite clear to other people.

Regarding particular behaviours in the relationship, there were certainly many actions taken by uBPDx that were toxic and harmful (and one case of an action by me that was toxic and harmful).

The word which is now becoming more helpful to me as a specific description is controlling.

It was controlling for uBPDx to emotionally manipulate and guilt trip when I didn't devote myself entirely to meeting his needs, and to invoke or threaten self harm as a way of eliciting a reaction from me. The fact that these actions were repeated over an extended period of time, and continued after I pushed back or said they were harming me, adds to the seriousness of the situation.

Perhaps a lesson I can take from this is that someone using their own pain as an excuse or a reason to undermine my needs and boundaries, is a form of control.

I have found it hard to recognise in the past because I saw myself as the strong, resilient and capable one, and uBPDx was obviously in a lot of pain and unstable.

Now I know that a weak person can be controlling, harmful and yes, abusive, too.

[Notwendy]

The word which is now becoming more helpful to me as a specific description is controlling.

It was controlling for uBPDx to emotionally manipulate and guilt trip when I didn't devote myself entirely to meeting his needs, and to invoke or threaten self harm as a way of eliciting a reaction from me. The fact that these actions were repeated over an extended period of time, and continued after I pushed back or said they were harming me, adds to the seriousness of the situation.

Perhaps a lesson I can take from this is that someone using their own pain as an excuse or a reason to undermine my needs and boundaries, is a form of control.

I have found it hard to recognise in the past because I saw myself as the strong, resilient and capable one, and uBPDx was obviously in a lot of pain and unstable.

Now I know that a weak person can be controlling, harmful and yes, abusive, too.

There are some books by author Patricia Evans that you might find interesting. One is called "Controlling People" which describes this situation. I found this one to be helpful in understanding why someone would do this.

Another one is "Verbal Abuse" which helps identify hurtful language. They aren't specific to BPD but there are other situations where this could occur. They are also gendered- the man is the abuser, or controlling person, and the woman is the one being abused but it could be either gender and one can apply it either way.

However you wish to call it, I think it helps to identify hurtful and controlling behavior. I grew up with a BPD mother who was controlling and verbally abusive but it was "normalized" or downplayed. There was no evidence of any abuse that people could see.

As an adult, I found that I tolerated being treated poorly in some situations. It's not only with romantic relationships- and one reason was that I didn't recognize the more subtle forms of this. Overt abuse is obvious- there's physical evidence, but a controlling and verbally cruel relationship can also be hurtful.

This wasn't to accuse someone of abuse. That's a strong term in the legal sense but it still is helpful to be able to identify how people behave and decide on a relationship- in general. I think we tend to consider motive- like if the person is intentionally mean or not- but either way, the emotional effect still feels hurtful. I think it is acceptable to say "this person is not an emotionally safe person to be very close to". I think we attach abuse to some kind of evil but they can also be people who are feeling hurt or are mentally ill, or who have been abused themselves. It's for us to identify behaviors we don't wish to tolerate.

Some people we can't avoid, like co-workers but we can remain aware and not get too close to people who behave like this.

[hotchip]

NotWendy, I really appreciate your thoughts and I'll come back to them but I just wanted to jot down a couple of memories here.

I guess one thing that made it hard for me to see the nature of control that was happening was that on the surface, and maybe in actuality to an extent as well, it seemed like uBPDx was doing everything to meet my needs and desires and to be an ideal partner for me.

But things kept seeming to come with a... catch.

Take, for instance, flowers. He went through a period when he would buy flowers regularly. I would say something like, "Thanks!" or "These look nice!" and put them in a vase and that would be it. But he would keep bringing it up - for some reason, my reaction wasn't enough. He would talk about what he perceived as a lack of romance between us, and say "I get you flowers but it doesn't seem to do anything".

Something I just remembered is that early on in the relationship, when he was talking about flowers, I mentioned that I'm quite picky with the flowers I like and told him some examples (not as a hint, it just came up in conversation). Over the course of the relationship, I... don't think that was ever incorporated into the flowers that were procured. Which is fine, it's not up to him to cater to my precise flower preferences! But it does seem strange that he would go on about how the reaction I gave wasn't enough, but also didn't listen when I said what I actually wanted.

There was another time he was spiralling and berating himself and calling himself a 'piece of _____' for, among other things, not buying me flowers. I said 'I never asked for flowers!' and he started berating himself even more, saying that even the things he wanted to do for me were useless, he was useless to me, etc etc. There was an implication that his feeling this was was my fault. It felt like I was losing in every direction.

(As I've mentioned before, he also took this occasion to call his former affair partner, with whom he had destroyed his previous relationship, then play her off against me by emphasising how, unlike me, she was 'there for him').

There were other things. He moved in with me, it was supposed to be temporary while he looked for his own place, but he never left. There were money issues, yes, and if he had asked me explicitly I would have been happy to support him - indeed, I think I was, for the most part, happy to support him.

Later, when we moved house together, he asked 'Do you still want to live with me?' And to be fair to him, I said, yes, I do - he did give me agency, and I exercised it. But at the same time... he never actually acknowledged that we had originally explicitly agreed that he would stay with me temporarily for a time, and then he would move out.

So I guess I did ultimately have a choice. But it also became an onus on me to ask him to leave, rather than his responsibility to... stick with the agreement we'd made in the first place. I had freedom of choice, nominally. But it was hard to exercise this, knowing the meltdown that would likely follow.

It was just really hard - in part because we often loved living together, but also, it was pretty clear that any signs of even slight rejection or recalibration from me would be met with a nuclear reaction, and I was conditioned over time to be afraid and avoid that, and to accept a shrinking of my rights and possibilities within the relationship - namely, that I couldn't expect agreements between us to be honoured if this conflicted with his mental health or emotional impulses.

[hotchip]

Come to that, the very first fight we had was similar.

I expressed that I was upset that he hadn't done a couple of things he had promised to do, and he just melted down and melted down and called himself a piece of _____ and got suicidal and called everyone he knew to say he was a bad person (!!) and implied this was my fault and called his former affair partner to triangulate me and ...

We did reconcile, and there was lovingness and honesty between us (I thought). But the upshot was, it was established early on that I simply could not expect that he would actually do things he had promised; in fact, that if I said I was angry or upset that he hadn't done something that was promised, I could expect a completely disproportionate and unhinged reaction.

Is this... control?

[Pook075]

Is this... control?

That's mental illness, plain and simple.  He thought that he was doing good and when suddenly confronted that he missed a few things, it was more than he could handle mentally and it sent him in a spiral.  Everyone here knows that spiral so well because whether the person is screaming at you or crying their eyes out, it feels like it comes out of nowhere.

Was he trying to be controlling or manipulative?  Maybe, maybe not.  It's hard to say without knowing him.

For instance, my wife and I went to a funeral a few weeks ago.  In my current location, family gathers for 7-10 days after death and then comes the burial the day after.  One aunt was laughing and joking one moment, then crying hysterically another moment, then starting an argument over who should do what a few moments later.  At the actual burial, she was screaming in anguish over the loss and everyone was sort of looking at each other- was that real?  Was she faking it?  What the heck was going on?

I realized pretty quickly that the aunt has mental illness and her feelings were just out of control the entire week.  She couldn't handle the loss internally and her emotions were all over the place.  We'd like to make it about us, but it really wasn't.  She was just grieving the best way she knew how and it wasn't how anyone else there was grieving.  And honestly, that's okay.  She did what she had to do in order to get through it.

For your ex, please realize that this wasn't a series of "you problems".  He probably wasn't trying to be abusive or controlling, he just couldn't handle reality in those moments and made things 1,000x worse by his over-reactions. 

If you and I were talking and you reminded me of a few things I forgot to do, I'd say, "Shoot, I'm so sorry.  I had every intention of following through- how can I make it up to you?"  Maybe you'd say something similar to me if it was you who forgot.  But for your ex, that logical, compassionate answer was probably not an option at all because he wasn't thinking about you, he was focused on his own dysfunction.

I hope that helps!

[CC43]

Take, for instance, flowers. He went through a period when he would buy flowers regularly. I would say something like, "Thanks!" or "These look nice!" and put them in a vase and that would be it. But he would keep bringing it up - for some reason, my reaction wasn't enough. He would talk about what he perceived as a lack of romance between us, and say "I get you flowers but it doesn't seem to do anything".

There was another time he was spiralling and berating himself and calling himself a 'piece of _____' for, among other things, not buying me flowers.

He moved in with me, it was supposed to be temporary while he looked for his own place, but he never left.

OK, I have a few observations here.

First, the issue isn't really about flowers, though the flowers could be a symbol, a trigger.  I think an issue could be that you aren't meeting your man's expectations, perhaps with gratitude, attention, physical affection or stroking his ego.  With BPD, expectations tend to be majorly unrealistic, and thus he's constantly set up for disappointment, and when he's disappointed, he spirals.

I'm reminded of a scene from the movie, The Breakup.  A woman is getting ready to host a fancy dinner with her family, and all she asked was for her boyfriend to bring home a dozen lemons for a centerpiece.  He brought her lemons, but only a few (not enough for a centerpiece), and he proceeded to sit on the couch to unwind after work.  He thought she was upset over some stupid lemons, and that she was nitpicking.  Perhaps she was nitpicking (she could had made a centerpiece out of the lemons and some other fruit), but what she was really upset about was the general lack of support from her boyfriend, while the boyfriend thought he was being supportive by working all day and attending the dinner with his girlfriend's weird family.  My point is, the argument wasn't merely about lemons, it was about feeling unsupported by the romantic partner.  The thing is though, perhaps unlike someone with BPD, the girlfriend didn't have a total meltdown, but she went ahead and hosted the family dinner.  With BPD, I would imagine a total meltdown, maybe breaking some dishes, out-of-control shouting, storming off, maybe making a threat of suicide, and ruining the dinner completely.

And now the issue of moving in with you.  I think that with BPD, any promises made are probably made with the right intentions, but they are based mostly on the feelings of the moment.  Maybe it's easy to make promises when everything seems hunky-dory right now.  But I think that pwBPD can confuse intentions with the realities of execution.  They tend to discount future efforts, while placing most of the focus on immediate gratification.  So moving in with you might seem like a great idea:  closeness, avoiding being alone, you're the one paying the rent, you solve his immediate housing problem.  He "discounts" the reality that he'll have to work to earn income, find a place for himself, fend for himself and do the heavy lifting of actually moving out.  Since the stress of all that is probably overwhelming to him, he copes by avoiding it.  He'll put it off as long as possible.  In my experience, pwBPD can carry a huge emotional burden when it comes to executing on mundane, everyday things, like making a plan to check out apartments, sign a lease, apply for jobs or pay some bills.  Their tolerance for distress tends to be very low.  To cope, I think they tend to rely on others to take care of them, while at the same time, they tend to blame others for their problems.  They can concoct a convoluted victim narrative as an excuse for not executing on their plans--and they might deny they ever made any promises in the first place.  Basically it's your fault he's acting the way he is.  Sound familiar?  I think that's typical of BPD.

[Notwendy]

I'll try to give some possible explanations drawing from what I know about BPD, the ideas in the book "Controlling People", and the example I have with my BPD mother. This isn't to blame anyone but to examine some reasons and dynamics.

People with BPD tend to perceive themselves as victims. PwBPD have difficulty with uncomfortable emotions, and one of the hardest ones for them is shame. In victim perspective, victims aren't accountable. Issues are someone else's fault. This avoids shame. The example of your ex berating himself for not sending flowers- in a way, victimizing himself- being so hurt- was his way of absolving himself. Surely you would have compassion for him, rather than for him feeling he should have taken action.

The passivity in not taking initiative at realizing the moving in is temporary. He's dependent on you in terms of his living situation. He doesn't want to leave. By making you ask him to leave, you are the "bad guy" here and he would be victim, rather than to feel shame about depending on you.

One could also see these behaviors as somewhat manipulative.

One reason for people being controlling is that it helps handle anxiety. My BPD mother had very disabling anxiety and one way she managed that was to be controlling. She also was dependent in ways but to avoid feeling shame about that, she'd order people around. If everyone was predictable and under her control, she felt less anxious. However, to most people, this wasn't tolerable.

If people didn't do what she wanted, she'd react with angry rages. That we were fearful of upsetting her gave her control. So she learned that this was a way to control people with her anger, or, also her being very nice at times. She was manipulative but this wasn't about an evil or abusive motive, it was driven by her anxiety and her BPD. Still, the effect was the same- scary rages, verbal abuse. It was abusive- whatever her reasons or motives were. These relationships also can include a person being nice too. It's not all one way.

In these relationship dynamics, both people are controlling in their own way. When we are afraid of speaking up, or if we are walking on eggshells, in order to avoid the other person reacting- we are also controlling their emotions and reactions. This forms a double reinforcing situation. The pwBPD learns that their anger meets their needs in a way and the person who is enabling or walking on eggshells learns that this helps them avoid the pwBPD's reactions.

The book "Controlling People" does not specifically address BPD but it gives a model for the dynamic. The controlling person- whether emotionally wounded in childhood or disordered, turns to an imaginary emotional support  which the author calls a "Teddy" like a Teddy bear is to a child, or possibly a real Teddy or toy during childhood. They attribute characterstics to the Teddy- Teddy does what they say, Teddy is there to soothe them. One could compare this to the idealization phase in a relationship with a pwBPD. Initually, to the pwBPD- this is the ideal person to solve their feelings, always loving, always attentive, always agreeing.

However, humans aren't Teddy's. Eventually a human has needs, or speaks up, or may say something the person doesn't like, or makes a mistake. At this point, the controlling person relives their wound, the Teddy has failed them. Bad Teddy- and the rage and anger comes out. Teddy must behave and get back into being Teddy.

This is not about blame, it's about identifying hurtful behavior, for our own selves. Your ex sounds like he has some emotional hurts, prior to meeting you. We can't repair these for anyone. They'd have to go through their own therapy to do so if they were willing. I think what is most helpful to you in identifying these behaviors is to not get into another similar relationship and be able to seek out people who will treat you decently.

[ForeverDad]

Normalization is a description to consider.  We here are reasonably normal people.  We generally have a good perspective of life.  But due to our inclinations - perhaps due to influence in our childhood or prior relationships - we began accommodating others, even the poor behaviors.  The poor behavior became normalized to the extent we didn't see it as abnormal behavior.

My experience with bringing home flowers... My ex liked red roses.  One anniversary I brought beautiful color-speckled carnations because the roses on display were virtually wilted.  Contrary to your way of receiving a gift, she raged at me for not getting roses, cut the flowers off the stems and threw them all in the kitchen garbage.  Then she had *nothing*.  Ranting and raging is quite different from a subdued response!  I was getting "normalized" to unreasonable behavior.

No two people have identical responses.  We're not like robots on an assembly line expected to be identical.  Our differences can and should be invigorating and refreshing in most cases.  But when things get to extremes of behavior, that's when a person's traits can morph into a level of mental illness.  That too can vary from one person to the next.  It's not like they carry an ID card in their shirt pocket that states "I'm mentally ill".  That's where we need overall awareness, perspective and objectivity.  Yes, and we're here to get that education and insight.

[hotchip]

NotWendy, your comments on shame are so insightful. uBPDx indeed used to sort of escalate the shamefulness of situations where he was imperfect or criticised in a self-victimising manner.

I remember when he first 'confessed' that he had cheated/ had an affair that destroyed his last relationship. In a small, almost childlike voice he asked, 'Do you think I'm a bad person?' He also described spending a long time in freefall/ fleeing to another country (where he met me) in the tumult of having lost that relationship.

But nowhere in this was there evaluation of his own actions - the aspects of his own mental state and choices that led him to cheat. The intensity of his shame, whether intentionally or not, became a kind of deflection. It made me sorry for him feeling bad about cheating, rather than asking the questions I should have (of course, he cheated again, .) Cc43, what you say about a victim narrative resonates here.