Progressing to the "detaching" board.

[maxsterling]

And yes, using the word "progressing" was intentional.

A lot of developments lately. 

First, my goal has been to be kind and consistent with BPDw and let her live her life however she wants.  Of course, that has left me "painted black" at times and resulted in me spending a (very pleasant) night at a hotel so I could physically disengage in whatever was affecting her (more on that later).

W had been spending considerable time out of the house with the new GF lately.  That has changed the past few days.  More on that later. 

W has also had a "right now" urgency to finding her own place.  I stayed out of that drama.  She found a new place and signed a lease yesterday.  I'm quietly celebrating, not just for me being one step away from avoiding the chaos, but for the kids, and for her having her own life.  I have no expectations here, but I see myself biting my tongue until she actually spends time in her new place.  Most people figure out how they are going to pay for a place first.  BPDw does the opposite (as she does with everything) - runs her life based upon panic and deals with the means later.

To get the new place, I had to borrow money from my dad for a deposit.  Enabling?  Not sure, but there was no other way she would be able to leave otherwise, and it was to the point where I could not tolerate much more of her cold unkind attitude.  For my dad, he was happy to lend money knowing I and his grandkids would be better off.  He pretty much implied he had been waiting for years for me to ask him.  A few thousand for him is nothing compared to being able to see his grandkids more in the last years of his life. 

But once she is out, I see it as "over" in the sense I see no reason we would live together again.  That bridge is crossed.  My prediction is that I will be slowly doing more and more of the parenting responsibilities as she struggles to function on a basic level, and that is fine with me.   

Regarding the GF - today is GF's birthday.  W is now telling me GF does not want to see her and hasn't for the past few days.  I don't know the details as to why, but I don't need to know because I have already lived it.  99.9999% likely BPD entered the R/S and GF has distanced herself.  The only thing W has told me is that GF doesn't want to be around her unless they have positive experiences.  I'm guessing W was being overly negative and GF said - "I don't need this", and W has since been "love bombing" and that has made the situation worse.  I'm sure we have all experienced this.  W asked me this morning "maybe I should send her a meal for her birthday."   Uh oh.  I reminded her that unless she specifically asked for that, a meal is something you send a sick person or someone whose kitchen is being remodeled.  I suggested she send a simple cupcake instead that says "happy birthday" and nothing more.  I see this getting real ugly....

[PeteWitsend]

...

To get the new place, I had to borrow money from my dad for a deposit.  Enabling?  Not sure, but there was no other way she would be able to leave otherwise, and it was to the point where I could not tolerate much more of her cold unkind attitude.  For my dad, he was happy to lend money knowing I and his grandkids would be better off.  He pretty much implied he had been waiting for years for me to ask him.  A few thousand for him is nothing compared to being able to see his grandkids more in the last years of his life. 

Right, but that's just the deposit.  Who is going to pay rent every month, and expenses for everything else she decides she needs?  You must know by now that with a pwBPD, the need to fill the void is constant, and if someone isn't there "entertaining" her, she's going to come back to you and start demanding more.  New couch.  Better furniture for the new place.  Someone to paint the walls.  TV doesn't work.  etc. etc.

...  The only thing W has told me is that GF doesn't want to be around her unless they have positive experiences.  I'm guessing W was being overly negative and GF said - "I don't need this", and W has since been "love bombing" and that has made the situation worse.  ...

I don't think there's any reason to consider what your W told you here.  Unless you're able to observe it for yourself, nothing she says is trustworthy.  She'll say whatever she wants about the relationship to get what she wants from you.

In all likelihood, their relationship is (or was...) just a fun novelty for the GF, and was only going to last as long as W was not burdening the GF with her needs, i.e. with all the BPD emotional neediness, or her actual cost of living.  Seems like it's already more or less over.  The GF knows her boundaries and will keep them.  You don't. 

I see this getting real ugly....

Yeah, but you're not just an impartial observer here.  The ugliness is going to be your problem real soon.  In addition to the regular BPD stuff she was burdening you and your kids with, now she has an apartment lease someone is going to have to pay.

[Under The Bridge]

But once she is out, I see it as "over" in the sense I see no reason we would live together again.  That bridge is crossed.  My prediction is that I will be slowly doing more and more of the parenting responsibilities as she struggles to function on a basic level, and that is fine with me.

100% agree with PeteWitsend. If you aren't careful and stick to very firm boundaries then little is going to change - the only difference is that she would be living with someone else. She will still heavily involve you in her chaotic life, especially if her G/F has been temporarily painted black.. what if she then wanted to come back to live with you? Would you be able to stand firm and say 'No'?

[maxsterling]

Would you be able to stand firm and say 'No'?

Absolutely.

#1 goal is to actually get her out of the house and staying elsewhere.  After that, I can catch my breath and make myself unavailable.  That's why I said "bite my tongue".  I don't want to do anything to jeopardize "step 1".

[Notwendy]

I see a lot of potential issues here. I can't predict the future but I have seen this kind of dynamic over many years, with my parents, and it has similarities to yours.

I understand where your Dad is coming from and hope, if it were possible, that you could also see that your father is aware of your wife's disorder and cares about you. I can see why he paid for this. But the fact that it is his money, not yours or your wife's is a factor in that- neither of you are taking the financial risk here. There's no monetary investment for either of you. So it's even more likely that this could be reversed, without any financial consequences to either of you. When people invest their own money in something, they are more likely to value it and stick with it. This is general human nature.

For your father, this is a gamble he was willing to take, hoping it might work.

To your wife, this is just one more pie in the sky want that she believes in the moment that she has to have and it was made possible for her without her having to consider the finances or logistics. So now, as soon as she has it, the idealized wish begins to unravel. For my BPD mother, this was the repetitive pattern. It was the vacation, the car, the move, the whatever she set her sights on as the solution to her emotional distress- and Dad made it happen for her. I wish it had worked.

If this event is going to be the actual split, you will need to be the one to take action. This means getting a lawyer and beginning the process. I don't think this situation is going to be sustainable for your wife. From what you have described, she has very little life management skills.

This will also take you being able to let her hit bottom, real bottom. Like a breakdown and being hospitalized, or not making rent and being evicted. I think you are probably right that your wife's best chance of survival is to find someone else, but this will be a bigger challenge for her now, at her age, than in her younger years. This is the dating pool- there's more single people who are younger. However, now may be her best chance she has, if this were going to happen. Also in the job market- the older one is, the larger the gap in work, makes finding one harder.

Although I see that enabling someone can stunt their own emotional growth and skills, and wondered how much this affected my BPD mother's ability to manage on her own, once I did see how she functioned without my father, I believe she was incapable of functioning on her own - ever, even with regular daily tasks. You know this about your wife, she won't even eat a regular meal without you fixing it, and she stays in bed most of the day. My mother did too.

I remember when I was about 10, BPD mom ran off somewhere for a couple days, maybe a week or more? I don't know. I was too young to know details. But she came back and my parents acted as if nothing happened. There were frequent divorce threats, but she didn't follow through with them. She couldn't manage if she had done that.

For this separation to actually be one, it will be up to you how much you can tolerate your wife hitting bottom.  She may threaten or attempt the unthinkable. Can you manage letting her be hospitalized? Getting social services involved? Unless you are legally divorced, you will still be financially responsible for her. Are you willing to go through with divorce and let your wife deal with the consequences of her own actions?

I know this sounds dismal, but your wife's management skills are low at the moment. It's not possible to predict what she's capable of so these are possible outcomes to consider.

[Notwendy]

But you can let whatever happens happen- and it may actually have the better outcome if your wife's issues truly come to light, or she finds someone else. You will need to be the one to hold the boundary on your decision, because there's a chance she may come back to you if she doesn't have other available options, but standing firm may open up other options for her if you do.

[CC43]

Hi Max,

I tend to agree with the other posters.  In my opinion, it's unfortunate your wife found a new living situation by using someone else's money.  Thus she has no "skin in the game," and in all likelihood will expect (demand!) continued financial support in the future.

On these boards, I've cautioned that when a pwBPD's life looks really dysfunctional (e.g. sleeping all day, not helping out, having regular meltdowns, blaming others full-time, barely taking care of personal hygiene/eating, abusing substances, volatile relationships, incidents involving police/hospitals, etc.), then to expect that a new living situation will result in a behavioral 180 is delusional.  It's basically setting her up to fail, at a cost to YOU.  My general advice is, not to make any big "investment" in a pwBPD when they are completely dysfunctional, no matter what they promise, unless you're prepared to flush some money down the toilet.  Sure, she'll claim that a new "living situation" represents a "fresh start," a chance to get her "back on her feet" and away from her "toxic" home environment.  Unfortunately, her words are just words, not backed by realistic plans or actions.  She'll ruminate obsessively and probably idealize a new living situation as the solution to her problems.  But as you know, the problem isn't the home, the past, you or anyone else.  The problem is her disordered thinking, lack of emotional control, perpetual negativity and victim attitude.  That will remain exactly the same, no matter where she goes, unless she gets some therapy and/or shows some functional progress first.

When can a pwBPD start to change?  When SHE makes the investment and takes the initiative herself, beyond just signing a lease and spending other people's money.  She could save up for a material portion of first and last month's rent, which requires foresight, determination and patience (traits untreated pwBPD tend to lack).  She could show some success at getting and keeping a job, even if it is very part-time at first.  She should demonstrate an ability to handle some normal(ish) daily habits and routines, before expecting to be able to perform them all by herself, with nobody around to over-function for her.  She should show some success at handling a budget, no matter how small she starts off.  Most of all, as an adult, SHE should be the one to make things happen.

You think, you're helping your wife by setting her up in a safe place.  Maybe that helps you in the short term.  But I think that if I were in your situation, I wouldn't have paid the entirety of deposit.  Maybe you're lucky and she'll figure something out, or find someone else to pay her expenses, at least for a while.  But I think you need to prepare yourself for her to be evicted when she doesn't make rent.  Would you let her back in with you?  Would you change the locks?  Is she on your lease, deed or mortgage?  Would she have racked up credit card debt that you'd be responsible for?  I just wouldn't want to see you get in more financial trouble, on top of the emotional quagmire you're in.

Just my two cents.  All the best to you.

[Notwendy]

Your wife has SSI- but was this sufficient to get the lease? How was she able to sign and qualify on her own?

If the goal is to get your wife out of the house first- which is what I think you are wanting- then I think it may require being prepared to pay her rent, and utilities for some time, unless her SSI income can cover that and she can be relied on to pay it.

[PeteWitsend]

...This is the dating pool- there's more single people who are younger. However, now may be her best chance she has, if this were going to happen. ...

And the older we get, the more experienced we are at spotting these red flags and saying "NO, THANKS" when the BPD-ishness starts. 

Or at least we're more set in our ways, and have less tolerance for someone who decides their new partner is a "project" to work on, and not another adult.   

[Notwendy]

W has also had a "right now" urgency to finding her own place.  I stayed out of that drama. 

She found a new place and signed a lease yesterday. 

Most people figure out how they are going to pay for a place first.  BPDw does the opposite (as she does with everything) - runs her life based upon panic and deals with the means later.

To get the new place, I had to borrow money from my dad for a deposit. 

Reading your post again, I have some questions. Please note- there's no intent to be critical, just to see what potential pittfalls there could be in this situation so you can be prepared.

The urgency, followed by the increase in difficult behavior to the point where you can't stand it and give in, is a familiar pattern. BPD mother had this same urgency followed by escalation. She just had to have whatever she decided was a solution for her, and she persisted until she got it.

The most recent rentals I have been involved in have been with my adult children. Leasing companies and landlords don't want to take risks with renters who may not pay. One had to apply to rent, with a background check, credit check, and needed proof of employment and income in order to qualify. Then the documents needed to be reviewed. So it wasn't a quick process. For some apartments, If their income during college was not sufficient to qualify, then they would need a parent to also apply and be a guarantor.

How did your wife, who isn't employed, qualify on her own to rent? Also there had to be an application process so how could it have been quick?

Did she qualify on your income and did you or anyone else also sign as a guarantor? How long a lease is this? If only your wife's name is on the lease, are you in a state where debt is marital- joint debt?

Just wondering what possible financial impact this may have on you.

[maxsterling]

Update here - hopefully it will address some of the issues you all brought up.

First of all, it is basically a "handshake lease", where the landlord did not do a background check or require much of a deposit (only $500).  Seems unlikely in the current times, but she was able to persuade the landlord that she would have a job come fall and he trusted her.  The SSDI per month is about twice the rent.  If she isn't able to work a full time job, a part time job plus SSDI and some budgeting would be enough to keep her own place.  My conversation with her prior to looking for apartments was that if she found a place and was approved, I would help her move in, but she would be responsible for maintaining her own place after that.  Frankly, I thought that her finding a place was next to impossible in the first place, so the details of the second part were unimportant.  She really lucked out here. 

I will point out that my stress level is greatly reduced since she left.  Orders of magnitude less.  I feel like I can work towards real solutions now rather than put out fires.  The BPD issues arent gone; they just aren't in my physical space anymore.  So, when she was texting me grim and potentially suicidal messages the other night, I was able to simply say "I'm sorry you are feeling that way" and say goodnight and plan on calling for a wellness check if I did not hear from her then next morning.  Much easier than her keeping me awake with her self harm threats until 3am.  For the time being, this is a comfortable place for me. 

She did manage to get hired for a full time job today, but it does not start until July.  My worry, though, is her keeping the job.  She's been hired for more jobs in the 13 years I have known her than I have in my whole life, but the average amount of time she has been able to keep those jobs is about 2 months or less.  Her relationship with the new GF I try to stay away from - but it's very apparent BPD has entered the room, and the new GF has responded with boundaries, to which BPDw has reacted to with boundary-crossing behaviors (obsessing, stalking, text bombing, etc).  Now that I have a step outside the FOG, it is very obvious to see.  I have concerns that her quick push for independence is mostly motivated by this new relationship and challenges to that RS will challenge her desire for independence.

Knowing the benefit to me and the kids that she not be under the same roof as me, I see a few looming challenges:
1)  Her not being able to keep the job.  I am curious to see how she handles it if she is forced to.
2)  The inevitable falling out with GF.  It's guaranteed and guaranteed to be ugly.  I need strong boundaries here.  I feel it will be easier to have those boundaries if she is not in the house.  But - it is to a point where going back to the status quo is impossible. 
3) Preparing myself for having 100% of the parenting duties.  I see this as highly likely that work or relationship drama will reduce her capacity to be a functioning parent.  Not that she has been much of a functioning parent for the past few years, but at least right now I can depend on her to be with the kids while I work - even if they are just watching television.

[Notwendy]

I think it's wise to be proactive for yourself- in the event your concerns happen, but also- even if it's the relationship that motivated her- getting her own place and a job is a big step and that she pulled this off is something to consider.

While you anticipate the potential issues for your wife- and they are not unfounded, it's also possible she might pull it off. It's not unheard of that someone has felt expectations to be in a heterosexual marriage and later discovers same sex feelings. Anything could happen from now on- she may stay with the GF, or find a new one.

There was a chicken-egg effect with my BPD mother. She had low independent functioning and would escalate if she wanted something or wanted something done. So we'd step in an get it or do it for her, to defuse the situation. This reinforced her behavior and her helplessness, so each increased. It takes effort to do something on one's own, and so- BPD mother's default was to get aggitated, or threat, or yell, and so we'd do it. The other aspect of this was that BPD mother did not gain a sense of accomplishment.

Each of us were a part of this behavior. Us, overfunctioning for her/her underfunctioning. Now that your wife has taken this step- whatever happens is a large part up to her. You can only control your part- which is to stop overfunctioning for her- and in terms of what a counselor would say "get out of her way". Let her either succeed or fail, and learn from that.

Chances are- you have always been the sole parent in terms of a parenting role, with BPD mother taking more like the role of a teen babysitter if this involves watching TV with the kids. It will take some effort and additional cost to fill this role but that's the situation for single parents. For summer- older teens and college students are more available for babysitting jobs, there are day camps, after school summer programs. It will be good for the kids too- they get bored staying around the house all day in summer. During the school year, after school programs fill the gap between school and work hours. You may find your work production increases without the stresses at home.

If there is no returning back to the status quo- now is time to consult an attorney for information. This isn't filing for divorce- yet or ever- it's to know your options and what to do if you want to work in this direction, and how this situation may affect decisions like custody and alimony. Some states require a time period of separation. This situation may qualify as that. I am not a lawyer but I can imagine that being the main parent and your wife working, and also having another partner would work in your favor.

Note- I am not posting a run message. It's a "be informed of your options" message.

[Notwendy]

If there is no returning back to the status quo- now is time to consult an attorney for information.

Note- I am not posting a run message. It's a "be informed of your options" message.

Some context- I did this after relatives urged me to consult an elder law attorney to know the options for my BPD mother. She was having difficulty managing on her own, making poor decisions,  but also wanted to be "in charge". I was reluctant to do so, and also didn't want to spend the money.

What I learned from the attorney was the legal limits for what I could intervene on, what it would take to get more control, and under what circumstances. Also how the law works with being power of attorney. I already had that.

I didn't act on a lot of the "what ifs" but I am glad I had the information of what to do if I did or needed to. The information itself was worth knowing.

This is an unusual situation and like many legal situations, divorce, separation, custody are complicated. It's also good to have the information so you don't make an unintended error in what you do.

As always, advice here isn't professional and it's not a must do. It's up to you. It's based on my own experience of being reluctant and later glad to have the information. I still had the choice of what to do with that.

[CC43]

Knowing the benefit to me and the kids that she not be under the same roof as me, I see a few looming challenges:
1)  Her not being able to keep the job.  I am curious to see how she handles it if she is forced to.
2)  The inevitable falling out with GF.  It's guaranteed and guaranteed to be ugly.  I need strong boundaries here.  I feel it will be easier to have those boundaries if she is not in the house.  But - it is to a point where going back to the status quo is impossible. 
3) Preparing myself for having 100% of the parenting duties.  I see this as highly likely that work or relationship drama will reduce her capacity to be a functioning parent.  Not that she has been much of a functioning parent for the past few years, but at least right now I can depend on her to be with the kids while I work - even if they are just watching television.

Thanks for the update!  It's natural for you to be thinking a lot about the future and the contingencies.  As for your partner's ability to keep her job, she might, or she might not.  If she's like the pwBPD in my life, she definitely will not keep the job if there's a safety net (aka a safety hammock).  But if she's actually compelled to work to support herself, she might hold onto the job for a time.  Another possibility is that she quits the job or gets fired, but then she's compelled to learn from the experience, find another job and then work even harder to keep it.  That's been the experience of the pwBPD in my life.  I think that she's actually learned some things when she faces the natural consequences of her behavior, instead of me or her dad being there to "rescue" her all the time.  However, you can't control how she performs in the workplace.  The only thing you control is YOU.

If you want your partner to to live on her own and support herself, then you absolutely can't let her back in your house (in my opinion) . . . because there's such a thing as a "sneaky" move-in.  I've seen that happen, when BPD stepdaughter would come to our place for dinner, then stay "just one night," then leave, then come back for another dinner, but bring a change of clothes this time, then stay another night, and before long she had moved in again.  Though she didn't really want to live with us, she did it anyway, so that her dad and I would pay all her living expenses, while she could remain unemployed.  So my advice is, if you want to keep her from moving back in, don't let her back in your home at all.  If she wants to see the kids, then she take them to a park something.

As for fallout with the girlfriend, you have no control over that.

Finally, as for childcare, my guess is that you're probably basically functioning as a single parent already.  Though your wife might have helped by watching TV with the kids in the past, my guess is that prolonged contact with the kids might have done more hurt than help, by creating a lot of chaos, tension and unpredictibility, right?  So my advice is to figure out childcare for them while you're working.  That might be involve daycare, activities, babysitters and/or stays with relatives.  Maybe you adjust your work habits and do some work from home late at night or early in the morning while the kids are asleep, as many single parents do (if you have a job with remote work flexibility).  I know that childcare can be tough to schedule sometimes, but millions of parents are in the same situation.  I think you'll figure it out.  My advice would be to prepare for 100% of the parenting duties, and if your partner actually helps out, then that's gravy.  I'd say though that the kids should go to her place when she's parenting.  My guess is that they wouldn't have a bedroom there, and that's probably a good thing, because they'd sleep at your place where there's a predictible, healthy, calm routine.

Just my two cents.  We like hearing updates.  Wishing you the best.

[Notwendy]

If you want your partner to to live on her own and support herself, then you absolutely can't let her back in your house (in my opinion) . . . because there's such a thing as a "sneaky" move-in.  I've seen that happen, when BPD stepdaughter would come to our place for dinner, then stay "just one night," then leave, then come back for another dinner, but bring a change of clothes this time, then stay another night, and before long she had moved in again.  Though she didn't really want to live with us, she did it anyway, so that her dad and I would pay all her living expenses, while she could remain unemployed.  So my advice is, if you want to keep her from moving back in, don't let her back in your home at all.  If she wants to see the kids, then she take them to a park something.

This is why I suggested you contact an attorney. It helps to know what to do in the case of a "what if" even if it's never needed.

It may be that you can not legally let your wife be homeless if the apartment falls through. The fact that she receives SSI may make her eligible for some support services.

If she can't stay with you, and she's on SSI- there is also a possiblity for other options- subsidized housing- but these options are not available if she's married to you as need is based on both incomes.

Same with health insurance- she may be eligible for Medicaid (if she isn't already) if the two of you aren't married.

Some people on SSI are eligible for assistance on some jobs- like a job coach person who can check in.

Since your wife's employment and relationships are one of your "what if" this happens concerns, it helps to know what options are out there, even if it doesn't come to that.