BPD thwarts understanding of their own issues?

[mssalty]

My PWBPD is going to counseling for other issues and has seen many different people.  They don’t understand why their issues aren’t improving. 

What I’ve noticed is that when the issues are talked about, they tend to want to justify their feelings and issues rather than tackle them.  Rather than understand what’s going on, they take the therapy itself as worthless because ultimately the problem can’t be internal to them or their thinking.  It has to have an external cause.   

When they ask me for opinions and help, they are rejected if I broach the idea that there may be flawed thinking involved. 

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[Under The Bridge]

Rather than understand what’s going on, they take the therapy itself as worthless because ultimately the problem can’t be internal to them or their thinking.  It has to have an external cause.

That's 100% the whole problem isn't it? If they think they're never at fault or the main contributors to the chaos it's impossible to get them to change their thoughts. My exBPD would never have gone to any kind of therapy because, in her own often-used words, she was doing nothing wrong while the whole world shi**ed on her all the time.

Trying to explain that the entire world can't be against her and she is the common denominator in all the life-long chaos with her family, workplace, friends, previous partners and me was just impossible.

Yet having said all that, some posters here say that their partner has actually acknowledged they have a problem and taken some responsibility. All well and good but of course once the BPD kicks in full flow they're back to their 'never at fault' thinking.

I hope things do improve for you, it's such a powerless feeling when we can't get through to them and make them see.

[Pook075]

I agree competely with Under.  There's no "honest" answer here to give to that type of question. 

It makes me think of when my wife asks me, "Do this dress make me look fat?"  I have a clear, instant answer that I can give and if she looks great, I tell her.  But what if she doesn't?  What's the "real" answer she's looking for?  That's too much thinking for me and I always say that it looks just fine, regardless.

A BPD will improve once they're ready to look within.  From our group expeirences, I think that only happens when life gets so utterly terrible, getting help actually feels like the best option.  Until then, therapy is used as a sounding board to talk endlessly about the lousy people in their live and how nobody supports them emotionally.

So in a way, your BPD person is right- the therapy is basically worthless until they actually want to contribute.  But even then, they get to talk out their problems and it makes them feel somewhat better.  That's some value at least.

[mssalty]

The worst part is that they constantly want my help and when I try to honestly help, even in ways sensitive to their own fragile thought process, I immediately get stopped, talked over, or hear a “yeah, but”.   

They want my help, but the reality is they want validation of the very things they claim to want to try to get over. 

[Pook075]

The worst part is that they constantly want my help and when I try to honestly help, even in ways sensitive to their own fragile thought process, I immediately get stopped, talked over, or hear a “yeah, but”.   

They want my help, but the reality is they want validation of the very things they claim to want to try to get over. 

Think about it this way.  If I say to you, "Help me lose weight," there's many ways you can respond.  And I think the only way you give an appropriate answer is to think about, "Why's he asking the question to begin with?"

When you're asked for help, your BPD is looking for understanding first and foremost.  And you should be able to give that since you know what it's like to feel frustrated or stressed.

And I get it, focusing on "feelings" doesn't actually solve the problem.  It makes them feel better in the moment.  But what if the actual problem, why they're ranting on and on about their terrible life, is the perspective they have from their feelings? 

Then you can give a great bit of help just listening and showing compassion.

It's very easy to want to fix someone else's problems by telling them everything they're doing wrong.  Even without the mental illness aspect, what we say can do more harm than good if we're not careful with our words and intentions.  And I'm not saying that you're doing that, but try to keep that in perspective anyway.  Dealing with BPD is a marathon, not a sprint.

[ForeverDad]

It's very easy to want to fix someone else's problems by telling them everything they're doing wrong.  Even without the mental illness aspect, what we say can do more harm than good if we're not careful with our words and intentions...  Dealing with BPD is a marathon, not a sprint.

This is a reminder for us all that Borderline traits, just like the other PD traits, are simply extremes of traits that everyone has - every single one of us. They're simply unbalanced traits, whether by too much or by too little, from the norms of productive lives and perceptions.

[Me88]

The worst part is that they constantly want my help and when I try to honestly help, even in ways sensitive to their own fragile thought process, I immediately get stopped, talked over, or hear a “yeah, but”.   

They want my help, but the reality is they want validation of the very things they claim to want to try to get over. 

They need our help. But we inevitably help them 'incorrectly' and they lash out. I always asked mine what she was looking for, how and what I could do to help. She literally would say she didn't know. And that meant she didn't feel heard and I was invalidating her emotions and reality.

She just wanted validation. For even the craziest of things. I would tell her, 'your version of being heard or validated is you being able to treat me like human garbage and just accept whatever accusations you make about me'. And I couldn't do that.

[CC43]

The worst part is that they constantly want my help and when I try to honestly help, even in ways sensitive to their own fragile thought process, I immediately get stopped, talked over, or hear a “yeah, but”.   

They want my help, but the reality is they want validation of the very things they claim to want to try to get over. 

That's insightful of you.  I agree 100%.  The pwBPD in my life often asks for help and validation.  But the help she want's isn't help in solving the root cause of a problem; the help she wants is money, allowing her to AVOID solving the problem.

She doesn't really want validation, either.  She requests validation of her convoluted victim narrative:  that she's traumatized by life, that it's too hard for her, that all her problems are caused by other people.  That she can't work, she can't study, she can't get anything she wants.  I might ask her, Well, what do you really want?  She'll reply that she wants more plastic surgery and to move abroad, for example to Paris, because she can't stand where she's living right now.  I might say, Well, I can certainly see the appeal of moving abroad, and it's certainly possible.  In fact, I lived in two different foreign countries when I was around your age.  It's doable if you work for it.  Now, what sort of steps do you think you might take to work on making your dream come true?  (She doesn't offer any ideas.)  May I suggest that you sign up for a language class and try to work here at company with offices in Paris--later on you could apply for a secondment, how does that sound?

Unsurprisingly, she doesn't like any of my suggestions, because it's the wrong type of validation and help.  Why?  Because my proposed real-life solutions don't involve me forking over cash, but rather involve her working on herself and towards her supposed goals.  It becomes increasingly clear that her goals are mostly based on fantasy.  The moment she starts thinking about practical realities (learning a foreign language, working a job), she feels overwhelmed and wants to give up.  That's when she'll double down on her victim narrative:  My family is the reason I can't do anything I want, my life is miserable, it's hopeless, it's your fault, you're horrible, you OWE me, I never want to see you again but send me money because I have to get out of here ASAP.

Besides, when trying to validate someone's feelings, there's an underlying assumption that the validator has some empathy and understanding.  Yet the pwBPD in my life doesn't want to admit that other people might "get" her and understand her issues.  No, she wants to be the gold medalist of the grievance Olympics, unique in her traumas, untouchable.  In her mind, it's impossible for me to empathize with what she's going through.  Basically, my pwBPD's suffering has become a core part of her identity, and if I claim that I "get" her, it probably feels like trespassing or stealing the one thing that belongs to her.

Underneath it all, I think she knows she's being unrealistic and unreasonable.  But her negative emotions take over and interfere with her life, hampering her ability to maintain stable adult relationships and tackle the mundane tasks of daily living, while  working gradually towards future goals.  She's convinced she doesn't have what she wants, and yet she's also utterly confused about what she really wants, while she doesn't have the patience to work towards what she wants, either.

[mssalty]

We all want to be heard.  In fact, my biggest difficulty in dealing with all of this is that I am not heard.  They ask me for help, and I try to talk about what I notice. They immediately start hitting me with reasons why I’m wrong, why my fixes are impossible, or a complete misunderstanding of what I said because they are listening on the defensive.  They both hate themselves and reject any criticism of themselves or their situation.   

I get that they want to be affirmed.  I also get that I want to be affirmed.  I want acknowledgment that I am in the relationship and also have fears, wants, needs, and struggles.   

I know that BPD can be hell, as can the emotional struggles, but sometimes there is a part of me that senses some enjoyment in there. 

[wantmorepeace]

I so understand your wanting to be acknowledged and for your ideas for progress to be heard.  And the reality is that the current pattern IS the pattern.  Reality here stinks.

Do you know if the therapists your pwbpd has been seeing are experienced with this condition and use one of the evidence-based treatment practices  - dbt, mentalization-based treatment, or transference-focused psychotherapy?

I'll say that for me, the odds of my pwbpd ever accessing any therapy, let alone these modalities, are virtually nil. So, as hard as it is to accept the reality, logic says I must.

[Pook075]

We all want to be heard.  In fact, my biggest difficulty in dealing with all of this is that I am not heard.  They ask me for help, and I try to talk about what I notice. They immediately start hitting me with reasons why I’m wrong, why my fixes are impossible, or a complete misunderstanding of what I said because they are listening on the defensive.  They both hate themselves and reject any criticism of themselves or their situation.   

I get that they want to be affirmed.  I also get that I want to be affirmed.  I want acknowledgment that I am in the relationship and also have fears, wants, needs, and struggles.   

I know that BPD can be hell, as can the emotional struggles, but sometimes there is a part of me that senses some enjoyment in there. 

Often, my BPD daughter will call me in crisis.  I ask what's wrong, what happened.  She rattles on about how this friend did something to that friend, and now both friends hate her because they feel like she's playing both sides.  Or whatever it is.

I listen and for the most part, I stay silent.

Finally the question comes- "I don't know what they want from me or how I can fix this because I didn't do anything to either of them and they're both mad at me when I wasn't even involved."

And it's so tempting to give an answer to that- she did this herself by telling each of them exactly what they wanted to hear at the other person's expense.  That she's a lousy, superficial friend who's only in it for herself and she plays off others emotions to feel good about herself.  But that's not what she wants to hear and that's not what actually helps her.

Despite the rant, despite the situation, all my kid wants is for me to listen and help her calm down.  She knows she was wrong and doesn't need me to tell her that she's gone through these exact same patterns her entire life.

So what do I say?  "Calm down, it's going to be okay.  Real friends would not talk to you like that or treat you that way.  Just relax and give this time, it will all work out on its own one way or the other.  Do you want to come over and watch the new Disney movie tonight?"

And I get it, I'm dancing around the problem.  I'm not being heard or validated myself.  But you can't expect that when someone is in a disordered state.  Once my kid calms down and resets mentally, then I can talk to her about anything.  I can't go there until she's in the right mindset though because her "fight or flight" response will kick in.  So I wait, I calm her down, and I let the storm pass.  Then we can have the actual talk.

Anytime you're trying to fix a BPDs problems with logical advice when they're disordered, you've already failed.  They're 100% emotional at that time and need emotional balance.

[mssalty]

Often, my BPD daughter will call me in crisis.  I ask what's wrong, what happened.  She rattles on about how this friend did something to that friend, and now both friends hate her because they feel like she's playing both sides.  Or whatever it is.

I listen and for the most part, I stay silent.

Finally the question comes- "I don't know what they want from me or how I can fix this because I didn't do anything to either of them and they're both mad at me when I wasn't even involved."

And it's so tempting to give an answer to that- she did this herself by telling each of them exactly what they wanted to hear at the other person's expense.  That she's a lousy, superficial friend who's only in it for herself and she plays off others emotions to feel good about herself.  But that's not what she wants to hear and that's not what actually helps her.

Despite the rant, despite the situation, all my kid wants is for me to listen and help her calm down.  She knows she was wrong and doesn't need me to tell her that she's gone through these exact same patterns her entire life.

So what do I say?  "Calm down, it's going to be okay.  Real friends would not talk to you like that or treat you that way.  Just relax and give this time, it will all work out on its own one way or the other.  Do you want to come over and watch the new Disney movie tonight?"

And I get it, I'm dancing around the problem.  I'm not being heard or validated myself.  But you can't expect that when someone is in a disordered state.  Once my kid calms down and resets mentally, then I can talk to her about anything.  I can't go there until she's in the right mindset though because her "fight or flight" response will kick in.  So I wait, I calm her down, and I let the storm pass.  Then we can have the actual talk.

Anytime you're trying to fix a BPDs problems with logical advice when they're disordered, you've already failed.  They're 100% emotional at that time and need emotional balance.

The hard part for me is that my PWBPD wants me to give them advice and answer questions when they’re disregulated and if my answers aren’t correct, I get attacked, which frustrates me which makes me even more awful in their eyes.   Because my SO doesn’t get nuance and latches on to words they want to hear as what they feel others believe, I don’t want to simply agree with my SO on something I don’t agree on. I know that my SO will remember my agreement with them for all eternity and bring it up each time I say what I really feel. 

My SO wants that agreement so badly.  When they feel a certain way, they hold on to things others have said (or possibly make them up or skew them heavily) to anchor that belief, even when the belief itself is what is harming them.   The problem is that their other mental health issues that they want my advice on can only be fixed by recognizing that faulty thinking.   In the end, any attempts to point out how the faulty thinking is the root of their mental health issues they want to get over results in them thinking they’re being attacked and invalidated. 

So “please help fix my problem” is followed by “no, not that way.” 

And there is no recognition that other people are struggling with things, want to help but are tired of being painted black, or even that 24/7 deregulation has ripple effects beyond them. 

I just wish I knew how to set a boundary calmly that said “I cannot always handle dealing with this  whenever you go down these paths of gloom and doom”.  I sometimes need space and time and a safe word when I don’t see our discussions going down a wrong path.

I also don’t know how to respond to gloom and doom with validation that doesn’t sound like I’m not sincere or that will actually soothe the Immediate problem. 

[Notwendy]

The hard part for me is that my PWBPD wants me to give them advice and answer questions when they’re disregulated
I just wish I knew how to set a boundary calmly that said “I cannot always handle dealing with this  whenever you go down these paths of gloom and doom”.  I sometimes need space and time and a safe word when I don’t see our discussions going down a wrong path.

I also don’t know how to respond to gloom and doom with validation that doesn’t sound like I’m not sincere or that will actually soothe the Immediate problem. 

I want to share some observations from my own experience that may give you some insight into this behavior. It may be that there isn't a solution for it, due to the emotions that drive it- it is a repetitive behavior that may be driven by emotional needs.

While you can and should have boundaries with this, because it is emotionally taxing to do it all the time, understanding why it happens might help you to decide on them.

You are each coming from different perspectives on what is going on and your SO may not even be fully aware of why they are doing this. You, being logical, see this from a problem solving perspective. Your SO brings up a concern or issue- your approach- suggest a solution. That would help if the actual reason for bringing this up was to seek a solution and maybe that is part of the reason but there's another reason and the solution doesn't address that, so the solution is rejected or criticized and they get upset, because it doesn't. However, they may not be aware of why this isn't the solution they seek. Since you are thinking logically, this doesn't make sense to you and it's frustrating.

There could also be an emotional need on your part to help solve her dilemma. You want to be helpful, nice, and a good person, most people do if they help someone, so when this is rejected and turned around, it's demoralizing.

My BPD mother had a large emotional need for emotional caretaking and while this was an aspect of her closest relationships, it was an aspect of all of them in some way. Her needs were so paramount for her, it was how she related to people, from her victim perspective- and she'd enlist them somehow as helping her in some way. Most people, being nice and decent people, would agree and that became a basis for friendships and other connections, until they would reach their limit, or say something like "this is your issue", (and they'd be immediately painted black for that), or they'd just drop the relationship. As family- we couldn't really do that. It wasn't just with advice, it was getting people to do things for her. The requests might be ordinary and reasonable or not, but people were more likely to agree to do ordinary and reasonable ones- and this still met an emotional need.

BPD mother would frequently ask me for advice and then reject it. One boundary I had was that if it wasn't in my area of expertise, I'd say "I don't know but your doctor/nurse/accountant/banker etc does know", directing the question to them. She seemed to be frustrated sometimes with this but it also was a boundary on being asked for advice on things when someone knows better than I do. If it's emotional advice- I'd say "you know Mom, I'm not a therapist and I think one can have a better explanation for that than I can" rather than "you need therapy". FWIW- she had therapy but didn't have the insight to her own behavior that would be needed for that kind of transformation. BPD is on a spectrum so some people might respond in this way better than others.

Here's a situation where this was more obvious. We were visting and she wanted one of my kids- at this point a teen, to take her trash can out to the curb for pick up. So she asked me where the teen was- and that child was busy, so I said "I can take it out for you".  Her reply was "No, I want that child to take it out". That's when I could see that the actual want was not just the trash, even though it's a completely normal request to ask a teen ager to do it.

I then took out the trash can out and she flew into a rage, running after me, yelling at me that I didn't put it exactly on the curb where she wants it, making me move it to where she did want it and being angry at me in general.

She didn't just want the trash out. She wanted my child to do it as an act of emotional caretaking for her. That's not a teen ager's role to do so, and this is why I intervened. In ordinary circumstances, I'd expect my teen to take the trash out for a grandmother, but this was something else.

One clue to why this happens is that it happens when your SO is dysregulated. Dysregulations don't respond to logic or solutions. They want emotional caretaking to help them regulate. How much you choose to do this and when not to do this might be where to look for your boundary.



 

[wantmorepeace]

I know that sometimes when I've said that I wished I could set a boundary, what I really meant was that I wished that my pwbpd would respect the boundary I set.  However, the fact is that pwbpd hate boundaries.  So, I can set a boundary, but I also need to enforce it despite all the anger and guilt-tripping coming my way. 

I'm in the middle of a cycle of that type right now and it isn't fun.  BUT, the boundary I set is critical to me and I am glad that I am holding it. I think about it this way: The boundary may never be accepted and I will just need to keep enforcing it.  Or I will hear less from my pwbpd. Or the boundary-crossing behavior may lessen (without any acknowledgment that my boundary was accepted, but so what?).  One way or the other, I will have lessened the extent to which I have to experience the full boundary-crossing behavior and I will not feel like a doormat. 

I have to remind myself of all this sometimes, as well as of the fact that the rage and the blaming were completely predictable and do not mean that I did something wrong.