Am I Hoping for Too Much?

[Parents! Get help here!]

I wonder if anyone else has this issue.

As a disclaimer, I must admit that things have improved with my adult daughter, due in large part to finding a therapist that she very much connected with since she was 15. She's 23 now. Teen years were hard with three "hospital" stays and a reliance on self-harm to cope that was difficult for her to shake. She seemed to loathe us then and that was incredibly hard for us. Did DBT twice and found it helpful. She lives about 4 hrs away with from us with an amazing girlfriend, she has a job and is relying less on us financially as she often states that she wishes to be self-reliant in that way, but is thankful for our help.

What seems to remain and that I've had to "radically accept" is that she find it hard to visit home, and to simply be around my husband and I. This is where I almost feel compelled to fall all over myself and "swear" that we were supportive parents, we didn't berated her, or say things to put her down. When she "came out" to us there was no drama, and we told her we loved her, and thanked her for telling us. We did DBT training as well and learned to validate, and we learned to meet her where she is and developed the ability to let her lead with interactions.

So let me get to the point:  we see her for very short amounts of time. This is what seems to work for her, and it's rather heartbreaking for us. She is an actor, so when she has a play she always tells me. I get tickets, and see the performance, get to hug her and gush about her performance afterwards, and then....she goes back to her apt, I go back to my hotel, and I catch the train home the next day. There is no grabbing a coffee, or a snack or just chatting. I literally see her for about ten minutes after the show, and that's it until months later. That's enough for her. It's been this way for years.  Same happened when she was in college. If we ask to get a bite etc. she declines, feigning that she has "work to do," but over time we realized she wasn't comfortable around us. I imagine we instill an anxiety by our presence. 

I finally got up the nerve to tell her (in a voice message...so in a way that was less "confrontational) that I missed her, and I'd like to see her to grab a meal or chat a little, when I come to her town. Or "do" something with her, if she comes home. Mentioned I'd love to go to a movie or just watch a movie with her at home  etc. She was very receptive, said we could absolutely do that (I think the years of therapy have helped her)....but... nothing has changed.

If she comes home, she's in her (old) room for hours. She'll come out and interact with our dog, briefly chat, and then go out with friends. The only way she'll be around us is if a friend is present. THEN she comes to life. She's bubbly, friendly, engaging....but it appears she cannot do that without the buffer of someone else being around.

She came home briefly to pick up her cat which we were watching while she was on vacation. I had mentioned that I'd love to watch a movie with her. She said she had "work to do," to get ready for a play, and then candidly said, "you know, coming home is not one of my favorite things to do, and ....it's easier to be around you if I have a friend with me." Wow ...I can appreciate the candor, but that was so hard to hear. It's a wonder she comes home at all, if that's how she feels. (She typically doesn't come for holidays...but did for a few days last year which was a huge surprise).

I have friends with such close relationships with their daughters. I yearn for that...but maybe it's just too much. I have to appreciate that she at least wants me at performances, does call me to share good or bad news, does ask for my advice....but cannot handle actually spending time with me.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

[Flora and Fauna]

I wonder if anyone else has this issue.

As a disclaimer, I must admit that things have improved with my adult daughter, due in large part to finding a therapist that she very much connected with since she was 15. She's 23 now. Teen years were hard with three "hospital" stays and a reliance on self-harm to cope that was difficult for her to shake. She seemed to loathe us then and that was incredibly hard for us. Did DBT twice and found it helpful. She lives about 4 hrs away with from us with an amazing girlfriend, she has a job and is relying less on us financially as she often states that she wishes to be self-reliant in that way, but is thankful for our help.

What seems to remain and that I've had to "radically accept" is that she find it hard to visit home, and to simply be around my husband and I. This is where I almost feel compelled to fall all over myself and "swear" that we were supportive parents, we didn't berated her, or say things to put her down. When she "came out" to us there was no drama, and we told her we loved her, and thanked her for telling us. We did DBT training as well and learned to validate, and we learned to meet her where she is and developed the ability to let her lead with interactions.

So let me get to the point:  we see her for very short amounts of time. This is what seems to work for her, and it's rather heartbreaking for us. She is an actor, so when she has a play she always tells me. I get tickets, and see the performance, get to hug her and gush about her performance afterwards, and then....she goes back to her apt, I go back to my hotel, and I catch the train home the next day. There is no grabbing a coffee, or a snack or just chatting. I literally see her for about ten minutes after the show, and that's it until months later. That's enough for her. It's been this way for years.  Same happened when she was in college. If we ask to get a bite etc. she declines, feigning that she has "work to do," but over time we realized she wasn't comfortable around us. I imagine we instill an anxiety by our presence. 

I finally got up the nerve to tell her (in a voice message...so in a way that was less "confrontational) that I missed her, and I'd like to see her to grab a meal or chat a little, when I come to her town. Or "do" something with her, if she comes home. Mentioned I'd love to go to a movie or just watch a movie with her at home  etc. She was very receptive, said we could absolutely do that (I think the years of therapy have helped her)....but... nothing has changed.

If she comes home, she's in her (old) room for hours. She'll come out and interact with our dog, briefly chat, and then go out with friends. The only way she'll be around us is if a friend is present. THEN she comes to life. She's bubbly, friendly, engaging....but it appears she cannot do that without the buffer of someone else being around.

She came home briefly to pick up her cat which we were watching while she was on vacation. I had mentioned that I'd love to watch a movie with her. She said she had "work to do," to get ready for a play, and then candidly said, "you know, coming home is not one of my favorite things to do, and ....it's easier to be around you if I have a friend with me." Wow ...I can appreciate the candor, but that was so hard to hear. It's a wonder she comes home at all, if that's how she feels. (She typically doesn't come for holidays...but did for a few days last year which was a huge surprise).

I have friends with such close relationships with their daughters. I yearn for that...but maybe it's just too much. I have to appreciate that she at least wants me at performances, does call me to share good or bad news, does ask for my advice....but cannot handle actually spending time with me.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wantmorepeace]

My person wbpd is not my child, so I can't speak to this exact situation.  But your posting touched me so much, I had to reach out and send you support.

I do understand that instinct to defend yourself against imagined accusations! That's part of it for me too.

Of course, I don't know you, but I have to believe that the things you describe having done facilitated the distance your daughter has come emotionally.  And I imagine that she -- like all of us actually -- is continuing to grow.  What is happening now may not always be the situation.

[Flora and Fauna]

I hope I'm replying the correct way to the kind person who replied to my post. Sometimes I don't seem to get the knack of replying within the forum.

Thank you for your kindness. It means a lot. Perhaps I shouldn't feel embarrassed, but trying to explain these feelings to folks with typical relationships (which may not be perfect but are so much less fraught with these sorts of things) is uncomfortable. I appreciate being able to admit the fragility of my relationship with my daughter, here.

[JsMom]

Flora and Fauna,
I'm so sorry this is the depth of your relationship with a daughter right now. You obviously love her very much. As Wantmorepeace just posted - this doesn't mean your relationship will always be this way. I too have to believe we are all growing.
Your post struck a chord with me and I'm pretty sure hundreds of others here.
My older swubpd also keeps me at arms length except when he's in crisis. In the last 6 months he has started to call to say hi and ask a few questions about me. I mostly carry the conversation. When I ask about him, I receive very short answers. He has told me he loves and hates me as he blames me for his struggles... He has rarely come to holidays,  though we host them all. He's gone to his girlfriends family's. In fact they were together 4yrs and we never met her. Like you my heart hurts. I believe maybe the space for him is a protection as I've been through the worst with him. In contrast, my younger son who doesn't  have bpd does come to family gatherings or over for a meal just with him. Our conversation are free flowing with us both sharing. I wish it were the same with my older son.
I'm glad you posted. Maybe to know you're not alone and to have a place to open your heart and heal.

[CC43]

Flora,

Wow, it sounds like your daughter has done a tremendous job making an adult's life for herself, despite the ongoing challenges of dealing with BPD.  That's commendable.  Surely she's done a lot of work, but she's also had the benefit of your loving support.  My guess is that she wouldn't have turned her life around like she did without your support.

I think that even for young adults without BPD, it can be challenging to return to the parental home.  I think I'm mostly "normal," and yet visiting with my parents in my 20s seemed taxing.  I felt like I was automatically "demoted" to child status, and was expected to do my parents' bidding without question.  Let's face it, it's really hard not to fall right back into the "old" family system, with the expectation that familial roles remain unchanged from childhood.  Part of the dynamic involves being cross-examined, when parents are desperate to know (and maybe control) everything that's going on in their adult child's life, while continuing to provide unsolicited "advice"/criticism that seems dated and unwarranted.  To the adult child, it can feel intrusive, even weird.  I'd say that in my case, my mom was emotionally dependent on me when I was growing up.  So any visit to the parental home would unleash a torrent of whining:  "Why can't you stay longer?  We barely see you!"  (I was working to earn a living and had two weeks of vacation a year.  My parents wanted me to spend ALL my vacation days with them?)  "You don't call enough!"  (I called every weekend; during the week I was busy at my job.)  "Have you had any hot dates lately?  (That's from my dad, who would invaribly inquire whether I had any "hot" encounters, which seemed too weird.)  The prying, prodding and guilt trips, plus the demotion status, plus the long list of household chores, felt like too much to me at that time.

I guess what I'm saying is, it seems fantastic to me that your daughter is making her way in her own life, and I understand how returning to the parental home could seem like a step backwards.  Maybe your daughter doesn't want to be reminded of her painful, dark teen years.  And maybe she's plain BUSY with her life.  Whereas three or four days to you could seem like nothing, to her, it might be all of her vacation days for an entire season.  Maybe she doesn't want to be cross-examined, for fear that she'd unleash lots of well-meaning advice from you, or worse, your disapproval.  Even if you don't say anything negative, she might automatically assume you disapprove of her, probably because she has her own doubts and projects them onto you.  My guess is that she's not 100% confident in herself yet, and so she avoids having too much contact with you, lest she feel your disapproval?  Staying in her room is a way to give her enough "time out" to ensure she doesn't have a blow up.  The pwBPD in my life needs A LOT of downtime to "recover" from any stressful situation, basically any encounter with another human being.

So now about you.  I think you're wise to recognise that you're feeling upset about not having as close a relationship with your daughter as you'd like.  That makes the issue more yours than hers at this point.  I understand that many parents here are mourning the loss of a "normal" relationship with their adult children.  In your case however, I see so many good things going on.  Your daughter is doing well, even thriving.  She's still in contact with you.  She's not blowing up at you.  She's not blaming you for everything wrong in her life.  She's talking with you.  You know she's OK.  I think that's remarkable for 23, which in my opinion is probably around peak time for BPD dysfunction.

My opinion is that this situation is just for now, and it probably won't be like this forever.  I'd say, keep doing whatever you're doing, because your daughter is doing remarkably well for somebody with BPD!  My theory is that she won't be ready to fully "reconnect" with you and repair fractured familial relationships until she has solidified her identity as an independent adult.

The pwBPD in my life is my adult stepdaughter.  She has relied a lot on her dad and me throughout early adulthood, for housing, money, insurance, transportation, logistical support, encouragement, administrative support, you name it.  In our case however, the relationship seems transactional--she only talks to us when she wants something.  Last summer, she moved back in with us, and in exchange for free room and board, we expected her to be a respectful roommate and find full-time work, so that she could save up and get back on her feet.  Long story short, she didn't hold up her end of the bargain, and her dad asked her to leave.  I'm sure she's mad at us for that, but I also think she's mad at herself, because she basically gave up on herself when she lived with us.  Yet, I think kicking her out was a good move for everyone.  For me and my husband, it ended a long period of enablement of dysfunction, and our home became peaceful again.  For my stepdaughter, it forced her to find work (finally) and her own living situation.  She's discovering that she can function independently as an adult, and I think that will help build her confidence as well as a more positive identity.  My theory is that she won't be ready to repair familial relationships until she has consolidated an identity as a functioning adult.  Otherwise, she's "demoted" to her former role as a messed-up dysfunctional child.  I hate to be blunt like that, but I'm pretty sure that's how she thinks about herself most of the time.

As for dealing with the disappointment about lack of closeness, I think you might benefit from looking at the wonderful things your daughter has achieved today.  Surely her life looks a lot better than it once did.  You can be proud of her, and you, for that.

[Flora and Fauna]

Flora and Fauna,
I'm so sorry this is the depth of your relationship with a daughter right now. You obviously love her very much. As Wantmorepeace just posted - this doesn't mean your relationship will always be this way. I too have to believe we are all growing.
Your post struck a chord with me and I'm pretty sure hundreds of others here.
My older swubpd also keeps me at arms length except when he's in crisis. In the last 6 months he has started to call to say hi and ask a few questions about me. I mostly carry the conversation. When I ask about him, I receive very short answers. He has told me he loves and hates me as he blames me for his struggles... He has rarely come to holidays,  though we host them all. He's gone to his girlfriends family's. In fact they were together 4yrs and we never met her. Like you my heart hurts. I believe maybe the space for him is a protection as I've been through the worst with him. In contrast, my younger son who doesn't  have bpd does come to family gatherings or over for a meal just with him. Our conversation are free flowing with us both sharing. I wish it were the same with my older son.
I'm glad you posted. Maybe to know you're not alone and to have a place to open your heart and heal.

It does help to know I'm not alone. I've often wondered what it might be like to have two children as you do, when the other IS able to give you the kind of relationship that a parent would hope to have. I have that to some degree with my step daughter. Not quite the same, yet the experience of easy conversation and reciprocal feelings. Thank you for sharing your experience with me. Sometimes the hardest part is taking what they dish out, but deciding to keep being there for them. I can see that you completely understand.

[Flora and Fauna]

Flora,

Wow, it sounds like your daughter has done a tremendous job making an adult's life for herself, despite the ongoing challenges of dealing with BPD.  That's commendable.  Surely she's done a lot of work, but she's also had the benefit of your loving support.  My guess is that she wouldn't have turned her life around like she did without your support.

I think that even for young adults without BPD, it can be challenging to return to the parental home.  I think I'm mostly "normal," and yet visiting with my parents in my 20s seemed taxing.  I felt like I was automatically "demoted" to child status, and was expected to do my parents' bidding without question.  Let's face it, it's really hard not to fall right back into the "old" family system, with the expectation that familial roles remain unchanged from childhood.  Part of the dynamic involves being cross-examined, when parents are desperate to know (and maybe control) everything that's going on in their adult child's life, while continuing to provide unsolicited "advice"/criticism that seems dated and unwarranted.  To the adult child, it can feel intrusive, even weird.  I'd say that in my case, my mom was emotionally dependent on me when I was growing up.  So any visit to the parental home would unleash a torrent of whining:  "Why can't you stay longer?  We barely see you!"  (I was working to earn a living and had two weeks of vacation a year.  My parents wanted me to spend ALL my vacation days with them?)  "You don't call enough!"  (I called every weekend; during the week I was busy at my job.)  "Have you had any hot dates lately?  (That's from my dad, who would invariably inquire whether I had any "hot" encounters, which seemed too weird.)  The prying, prodding and guilt trips, plus the demotion status, plus the long list of household chores, felt like too much to me at that time....."

Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond to me with such a thoughtful response. What you've said truly resonates. While we try so hard to not put this kind of pressure on her, what you've said reminds me of a sort of "implied pressure," or better said, the falling back - or feeling like one is falling back into old roles. That makes so much sense that this is very likely the way in which she struggles with coming home and with her relationship with me. I hadn't thought of it that way. I was feeling a bit stuck in feeling rejected, and couldn't see it that way. This is really helpful to me.  I so want home to be a soft place for her to be... but I'll remember that it's a bit more complicated than that. I appreciate your kind words re: the work my daughter has done on herself, and our support of her. That's true of so many of us on this forum. I remember when I first found this site. My heart was so heavy. To know that on this site - we have each other when we feel stuck...what a relief to express one's self in a place where people can understand our path.