Six years too late? It's never too late.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hello, forum.

I've been wrestling through my marriage for years (and the entire relationship itself) for just shy of a decade. As I dive deeper into an understanding of what BPD is, how it manifests, how DBT works to create a pathway forward... I realize how thankful I am to have had the opportunity to read and learn from everyone else. I've been fortunate to have a good emotional support group that knows my silence means I'll reach out at some point. I have a good therapist who shifted her focus from me wanting to exit my marriage to figuring out the reason I stay, and what "love" means in context. I wish I had started this journey (pwBPD courses, reading, direct mindfulness) so long ago. I've read from so many of you the reasons you stayed. It feels so good to feel less alone.

I begin my first group coursework this Friday. As the male partner in my relationship, I've felt very confused by the emotional and physical abuse. Am I not supposed to be able to take this? Am I not supposed to just ride the storm? I realize that a partnership with a person with BPD isn't limited by gender or sexuality norms; it's complicated. No single thing is the root cause. I've practiced validation to the point that I've invalidated my own emotional existence. I've allowed boundaries to be confused with demands, living my life trying to rebuild an eggshell puzzle every day. I am so, so exhausted.

Reddit's pwBDP thread is a toxic environment. No shame to the people who found their exits, I just find more "aren't they crazy" and "so glad I left" empathizing than a real, honest look at why we stay in the first place. I recognize that leaving - if that's my path - is at constant war with staying.

So I'm posting here in anonymity because it feels good to finally admit... yeah, this isn't normal. Sure, I have things to work on and habits to change and pieces of me that can always improve... but this isn't normal. I am not in a "normal" relationship (let's define normal as non-abusive and moderately irrational at its worst, barring a few outliers). And this is hard. And my soul hurts. And my feelings hurt; they're in there, somewhere.

Thanks in advance for existing. And thank you retroactively for having provided so many opportunities for me to read, reflect, think and compare stories. This is hard.

[bluebird314]

Hello, forum.

I've been wrestling through my marriage for years (and the entire relationship itself) for just shy of a decade. As I dive deeper into an understanding of what BPD is, how it manifests, how DBT works to create a pathway forward... I realize how thankful I am to have had the opportunity to read and learn from everyone else. I've been fortunate to have a good emotional support group that knows my silence means I'll reach out at some point. I have a good therapist who shifted her focus from me wanting to exit my marriage to figuring out the reason I stay, and what "love" means in context. I wish I had started this journey (pwBPD courses, reading, direct mindfulness) so long ago. I've read from so many of you the reasons you stayed. It feels so good to feel less alone.

I begin my first group coursework this Friday. As the male partner in my relationship, I've felt very confused by the emotional and physical abuse. Am I not supposed to be able to take this? Am I not supposed to just ride the storm? I realize that a partnership with a person with BPD isn't limited by gender or sexuality norms; it's complicated. No single thing is the root cause. I've practiced validation to the point that I've invalidated my own emotional existence. I've allowed boundaries to be confused with demands, living my life trying to rebuild an eggshell puzzle every day. I am so, so exhausted.

Reddit's pwBDP thread is a toxic environment. No shame to the people who found their exits, I just find more "aren't they crazy" and "so glad I left" empathizing than a real, honest look at why we stay in the first place. I recognize that leaving - if that's my path - is at constant war with staying.

So I'm posting here in anonymity because it feels good to finally admit... yeah, this isn't normal. Sure, I have things to work on and habits to change and pieces of me that can always improve... but this isn't normal. I am not in a "normal" relationship (let's define normal as non-abusive and moderately irrational at its worst, barring a few outliers). And this is hard. And my soul hurts. And my feelings hurt; they're in there, somewhere.

Thanks in advance for existing. And thank you retroactively for having provided so many opportunities for me to read, reflect, think and compare stories. This is hard.

[ForeverDad]

Welcome to BPD Family, a peer support group of people who have "been there, experienced that".  We're not here with legal advice, that is provided by lawyers, solicitors and other professionals.  But our peer support includes collective wisdom based on many years of hard-won experience.

Please browse our various boards, each one focused on a variety of things we have to deal with.  For example, our Tools and Skills workshops board has a variety of topics that are necessary to know but not very intuitive.  Examples are identifying practical boundaries and using communication skills such as SET, DEARMAN, etc (and why logical JADE so often fails).

You mentioned your marriage is approaching a decade.  If you're in the USA, one positive - in the midst of a world of hurt - is that both spouses of a 10+ year marriage can benefit from the higher of either spouse's income history once they reach retirement age.

You haven't mentioned whether you have children together, so I'll add this just in case... There are many reasons to ponder whether to divorce.  One that is not so intuitive is how the children would be impacted.  A common perception is that the marriage must be held together at all costs for the sake of the children.  Yet the opposite might be true... If a person decides the marriage has failed due to serious mental health and behavioral dysfunction, the children are impacted...

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc.  Some 40 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation (the earliest quote I could find) on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

[Under The Bridge]

So I'm posting here in anonymity because it feels good to finally admit... yeah, this isn't normal.

Hi and welcome - nice to see you posting

Yes, 'normality' is the last thing we get in a BPD relationship - the best we can hope for is periods of 'near normality'as we walk in a massive minefield carefully minding our step.

It's good to see that people can make a life out of it though, especially if the one with BPD recognises they have a problem and commits to therapy. Every case is different and everyone's limit is different and sadly, sometimes there simply is no other option than to end it, for the sake of sanity and health.

Ironically, we stay in the relationship because it isn't normal; we're meeting someone who, at the start, seems so utterly perfect for us that we can never envisage anything going wrong. It's a big emotional high and it takes a strong hold of us. Of course, once the idealisation phase wears off and the BPD kicks in, we're already hooked on the line and are now in the 'push/pull' cycle which takes over.

My own relationship lasted 4 years but was getting worse, she never accepted she had problems and the whole world was against her so ultimately there could only be one ending, as I wasn't prepared to accept such a life of ever-increasing conflict.

Feel free to post further - we're all in this together

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family!  I'm glad you're off the Reddit boards because those are toxic for everyone involved.  Hate brings more hate, and who's right or wrong when everyone is there to complain and talk junk about other people?  That's the world we live in these days but it certainly is not for me.

I'm glad you posted in the "conflicted" section because you certainly do have options.  Your spouse is sick and communication is difficult.  The relationship is also unfair to you at times (maybe, a lot of the time).  But as communication improves, so does the relationship and the explosive moments.

I will never tell someone to leave or stay, unless someone is in obvious physical danger.  Then they run!  But otherwise, the place you're in is the time to put in the work to see if this is a "solvable" problem.

What's that look like?  I have multiple BPDs in my life- an ex wife and a daughter.  We were married for 23 years and I had all the moments everyone here describes.  But at the same time, I also realized why those patterns repeated and it had nothing to do with who was right or wrong, or even love.  It was all about disordered thinking when my BPD had unstable emotions.

Stay with me for a moment.  Have you ever whacked your finger with a hammer?  Or slammed your hand in a car door?  In that exact moment, how did you react?  Did you logically say, "This hurts like mad, but it will be okay in a few minutes...."  Or did you say a curse word, kick something, and lash out in pain?

Mentally, that's what your spouse is going through whenever she's disordered.  Her feelings bring her to that place of explosive rage or endless despair.  Just like when you whacked your thumb and wanted someone to understand your erratic behavior in the moment, your spouse's disordered thinking in the moment expects you to realize she's in crisis and treat it like a life or death scenario.

That's not what she says, mind you...that's what she feels.  Please catch this because I've said it a few times.  Disordered thinking comes from out of control emotions.  You fix one and the other fixes itself.

The conflict part comes from her being in crisis, doing her best to hide it from the world, and you thinking that this is just an ordinary conversation where things are normal.  So she asks you where the ice cream in the freezer went, you say the kids ate it yesterday, and she has a full blown mentdown because she's been wanting that all day and it proves that you've never loved her and that you lied to her about something in 2003 which proves everything she's ever thought!

Disordered thinking comes from unstable emotions.

What you should do (what we all try to do) is ignore the words and focus on the emotions.  Is she sad, depressed, furious?  What would a regular human do when they see someone anrgy?  They'd calm them down.  If they're sad, cheer them up.  It's learning to do this in the moment that makes all the difference in the world and changes the fundamentals of these relationships.

Now, it's one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do and nothing about this is intuitive...but it's the blueprint.  Soothe the emotions, the disordered thinking goes away.

Others will say your spouse is nuts, she needs meds and therapy, she needs to do better.  Sure, all that is true.  But you can't control any of that.  It's up to her.  So you focus on what you can control and that's what I just walked you through.  I hope that helps!

[wantmorepeace]

I've practiced validation to the point that I've invalidated my own emotional existence. I've allowed boundaries to be confused with demands, living my life trying to rebuild an eggshell puzzle every day. I am so, so exhausted.

Hello, bluebird314.  Sending empathy and support.  What you wrote prompted me to recommend a book that is helping me a lot: Margalis Fjelstad, Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.  (Stop caretaking doesn't mean leave, although it can.  That's up to each person.  In addition to the great insight it gives into caretaking (vs. caring), it also provides some things to think about in staying/leaving decisions.

[bluebird314]

These have all been such beautiful replies and I'm incredibly grateful.

In-between my post and now, things devolved into a very poor state. Partially due to my inability to set effective boundaries (and my heart wanting to constantly de-escalate and repair) a compounding text with my wife devolved as my validations were met with hostility (my CBT therapist and myself have worked hard on helping me understand validation... acknowledging that throbbing thumb is real even tho the accusations attached to it are factually questionable). I set a boundary (first time!) that I would not communicate anymore unless she communicated with respect towards me. This spiraled quickly. Then I got a call and was told to leave the home. I told her I would not engage with this conversation.

She then texted me saying if i didn't leave the home immediately she would be physically violent with me when she got home. I left, not responding to her texts. They kept flooding in. Then I called her and said "I will not text you, but I will speak with you."

That was a misstep. I removed my own boundary. She hurled insults at me and I took the bait. I said things I've been wanting to say. "God forbid someone doesn't actually want to leave you," "you are the biggest victim I know" and "you are emotionally and physically abusive." On the other line, she was screaming and hyperventilating from her car.

It felt good. Then it didn't. Same way that when she hits me, I don't feel the desire to hit her back because I know how much pain it would cause and the idea of her in pain is tragic.

Love is a co-dependency. For sure. And I'm absolutely at a loss with where to go. We have two kids, teenagers, one of whom left the home last year after a fight with her while I was travelling. Moved states to his dad's. It tore her apart. In that time, she burnt the world around her down until it was just myself and one of her sisters left. Slowly, we worked to get our son home. And then we did, and started to rebuild.

We started this year with our third couples therapist and were about to move to a DBT-based couples therapist as ours goes on maternity leave.

I look at every action and reflect. I also am beginning to refuse to accept victim's shame. "You got hit because you wouldn't get out of my face" when I'm five feet away, a foot shorter and have my hands up in a "hey, I don't want to fight" position. "You got yourself hit and you deserved it."

I'm deeply reflective and take all criticism to heart. It's a bad thing, often - I'm not good at discerning what is and isn't true, and so often confuse factual truth with validity/invalidity.

Woof.

Didn't intend to spill out. Trying to focus on work. I've packed my bags and am leaving my home for two weeks. We just moved in. I thought maybe the stability would help us.

But I hadn't moved my books yet, and that became a one-sided argument about how easily I could just leave and abandon her. Trying to dissuade that feeling... we literally just bought a home? What do you mean? Funny to think how a tiny change in words or actions leads to a 10 day mental storm.

None of it ever seems to make sense. That's the hardest part.

Sorry... first time really opening up in solitude while in a group on this.

Lots of reading and reflecting to do. My reminder:

I am not the things she says I am.
I am not the person she accuses me of being.
I am worthy of being loved and respected, and treated with care and empathy.

[bluebird314]

Hello, bluebird314.  Sending empathy and support.  What you wrote prompted me to recommend a book that is helping me a lot: Margalis Fjelstad, Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.  (Stop caretaking doesn't mean leave, although it can.  That's up to each person.  In addition to the great insight it gives into caretaking (vs. caring), it also provides some things to think about in staying/leaving decisions.

Thank you! I'll add this to my reading task-list.

[zachira]

Emotional and physical abuse is very confusing for men. Usually for men, the emotional abuse is what hurts the most and does the most long term damage. Men also are frequently discriminated against when they reach out for help from an abusive relationship because the prevailing prejudice tends to be that men are stronger physically and mentally than women, so the abuse a woman inflicts on a man really doesn't matter. Indeed it does.

In around 50 percent of heterosexual relationships the physical abuse is mutual.

As a man, it is important that you understand how the laws in many jurisdictions mandate that the man be arrested if the police are called for a domestic violence complaint unless the woman has a lethal weapon like a gun or a knife. The man is considered to be a lethal weapon by himself because of his superior physical strength.

Do not overestimate your ability to refrain from hitting back. There are countless men who have domestic violence convictions because after many years of emotional and/or physical abuse, one day it becomes too much and the man hits the woman on one occasion.

[Pook075]

Sorry... first time really opening up in solitude while in a group on this.

First, don't apologize for opening up.  This is a place to talk, vent, question, rant...whatever is needed.  That's what peer support is all about, we're here to support you through this regardless of the outcome.

Second, a trial separation could be a good thing.  It doesn't feel very good right now, but she will quickly realize that she escalated too far.  Her pride will say its your fault, but her heart will know the truth.  That's how BPDs grow, by learning from their mistakes and actually facing the consequences.

Give it time, get some rest, and find a way to re-focus. 

No, you're not the things she says, and you do deserve respect.  But she has a serious mental illness and it's not that simple.  Is it abuse?  YES!  Should you have to deal with it?  NO!  You want to save your marriage though and for real change to happen, both of you must change as well. 

This is not about blame, it's about growth.  You must learn to diffuse her emotions so she can stablilize.  She needs to learn to respect your boundaries and control her emotions.  But hopefully you see, the task is the same for both of you...help her calm down and so she learns to help herself.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I begin my first group coursework this Friday. As the male partner in my relationship, I've felt very confused by the emotional and physical abuse. Am I not supposed to be able to take this? Am I not supposed to just ride the storm? I realize that a partnership with a person with BPD isn't limited by gender or sexuality norms; it's complicated. ...

Welcome, and glad you found this board.

Your comment above reminded me of one thing I've grown to understand, and I also struggled with a lot when I was married to a pwBPD (though officially she is undiagnosed TBF).  That thing is that you shouldn't be comparing yourself to others, or to some ideal standard when you decide what it is you want, or don't want, or won't tolerate.  That's up to you to decide, and what you decide is fine; no need to look outside of you to justify it.  

For example: If you don't like how she treats you, tell her to stop.  If she won't stop, if she blames you for her own behavior, if she deflects, changes the subject to avoid the conversation, if she insults you, attacks, you, etc., well then you're faced with a decision: do you continue to allow someone to treat you this way, or do you leave them?  It's that simple.  No need to compare your situation to other couples.  Do you fight more or less than other couples?  Doesn't matter!  It's too much for you.  Are all women like that sometimes?  Who cares!  She's not treating you how you expect to be treated: with the same respect you show her.  

If you struggle to know what you want, what you deserve, and what you should tolerate, then you need counseling maybe, or at least you need to do some serious soul-searching and reading and learning.

I spent years agonizing over my situation; did we fight more than other couples?  How much was too much?  Were divorce rates lower in the past because people were more tolerant?  Could I do better?  Is this just what being a married man is like?  There are countless shows, sitcoms, jokes, etc. about stuff like this... maybe being miserable is just how it is?

In the end it was all nonsense.  The bottom line was that she was not capable of treating me how I deserved to be treated.  Sure, I suspected she had a personality disorder and was incapable of treating other people (not just me) how they deserved to be treated, but personality disorder or not, it didn't matter.  Had I understood boundaries better, and how I was complicit in setting the tone of how others could treat me, I would not have lasted very long in that relationship.  The first time she raised her voice at me, I would've stood my ground, and if I didn't get an unequivocal apology, I would have known to end the relationship.  I wouldn't have said to myself "Gee, she screamed at me to get out of doing [thing I politely asked her to do], and I didn't like it, and when I said so, she screamed more and tried to blame me for her anger, but it would be silly to end a relationship over this one thing, so I'll just have to shut up and take it." 

By shutting up and taking it, I set the stage for her to do it again.  And over and over again.  I told myself "Well, you're in a serious relationship now, there's give and take" but then I'd see friends in normal healthy relationships with non-disordered people and be shocked that they were allowed to spend time with others outside of the relationship, and didn't have to jump when their partner said jump, and had hobbies and interests they pursued without a guilt trip from their partner, etc. etc. 

[Pook075]

I set a boundary (first time!) that I would not communicate anymore unless she communicated with respect towards me.

One more nugget- boundaries are made by you, for you, and they do not require anyone else's participation.

If I tell you, "I will take you to the Lakers game tonight, court side seats, if you cook burgers before we go."

That doesn't sound like a boundary, does it?  But it absolutely is.  A boundary is simply "If you do xxx...I'll do xxx."

"If you hit me, I'll call the police."
"If you scream at me, I'm walking away."

Now, you throw out one of those things when your wife is heated...guess what happens?  She screams and hits you.  Why?  Because you gave an ultimatium that she was too dysregulated and emotional to accept.

Look at my "boundary" again.  You spend 20 minutes working, I'll buy $10k tickets for us.  Pretty good deal, right?

My boundary is not a threat, it's not an ultimatum.  In fact, it's reward based if you behave in a way that I feel is appropriate.

The second part of the boundary is that it has to have clear "expectations" and "counters".  If you don't cook burgers, we're not going to the game.  If you do, we're going.  That means that you are ultimately deciding the outcome, not me, and I'm just being predictible with what I said that I'd do.

The third part is consistency.  Obviously I won't take you to a Lakers game every time you cook for me, so that's a bad example for this.  But you have to say it often and stand by it.  She makes the decisions, you act on them exactly as you said that you're going to.  "If you scream at me, I'm walking away."  Expectation, counter.

We don't need to make it threatening though or an ultimatum.  I can say, "Bluebird, I care about you as a friend and I don't want to argue.  I'm going to step away for a bit so we can both calm down."

Now, I'm probably already pretty calm and the thing I need a break from is you.  But I don't have to say it that way because we both know what will happen if I do.  It would be WWIII.

Again, take this time to reflect and figure out what's best for you.  Boundaries work if you can present them in a compassionate way, and you can make big gains with a different style of communication when she's dysregulated (and fueled by emotions).

[Notwendy]

I think these relationships are very individual and the time line for personal growth is different for each one, that there isn't a "too late". You are here after 6 years and that is where you are at.

My own opinion is that your T was wise to shift to you examining your reasons for staying. While learning about BPD and DBT is good information for you, that will depend entirely on the person with BPD's motivation to do this, if they will. I think you will gain more by focusing on your own reasons and emotional growth.

I also don't consider staying or leaving as being a success or failure. Each decision is a very individual one and each person makes the best decision for their own circumstances. The person who stays isn't superior to the person who leaves or is better at enduring or making it work. Both staying and leaving are complicated and diffucult decisions in their own ways.

That someone stays isn't always due to them being able to make the relationship better or "normal". I do think the tools on this board and personal therapy help take down the drama in the relationship. We can't change another person but when we change our behavior in the dynamic, there is the possiblity of changing that, and in some situations, it's enough to make the situation better. It does not "cure" the pwBPD. Validating is one of these tools, and it can help, but how much can vary.

In assessing my experience with my BPD mother and father, her behavior is easier to understand. She was the one who had BPD. My father, who in ways was the more emotionally stable one, was more complicated to figure out. I had thought of my mother as being the problem, but he too was a part of the dynamic between them. It was a function of them both.

He stayed, but I think the best explanation for why the marriage endured was again- he had his reasons, and those we can't really know from the outside. It didn't change that my mother had BPD. She was not able to have the insight to work with therapy on that. Some others are motivated to do that, and make progress with that and their relationships. Each pwBPD is an individual too. 

These relationships are confusing because- they aren't all good and they aren't all bad. They aren't what we think of as "normal". I could say the same for my experiences with my parents growing up.

We all started somewhere with learning to navigate these situation, and boundaries, made errors, learned from them. Yes-keep in mind- even if you don't do this perfectly, none of us do or did and your saying is still true-
You are not the things she says you are. You are not the person she accuses you of being. You am worthy of being loved and respected, and treated with care and empathy.

[ForeverDad]

I set a boundary (first time!) that I would not communicate anymore unless she communicated with respect towards me. This spiraled quickly. Then I got a call and was told to leave the home. I told her I would not engage with this conversation.

She then texted me saying if i didn't leave the home immediately she would be physically violent with me when she got home. I left, not responding to her texts. They kept flooding in. Then I called her and said "I will not text you, but I will speak with you."

That was a misstep. I removed my own boundary. She hurled insults at me and I took the bait. I said things I've been wanting to say. "God forbid someone doesn't actually want to leave you," "you are the biggest victim I know" and "you are emotionally and physically abusive." On the other line, she was screaming and hyperventilating from her car.

Her reaction to to a new boundary is predictable.  It's an extinction burst.  People with BPD traits (pwBPD) are highly resistant to change, even positive changes.  Will she adjust?  No one can know, it depends on her.

We started this year with our third couples therapist and were about to move to a DBT-based couples therapist as ours goes on maternity leave.

That you're possibly moving on to a third is an indicator.  The couples counseling concept is to repair the relationship.  As I understand it, it is not to decide whether to continue the relationship.

It felt good. Then it didn't. Same way that when she hits me, I don't feel the desire to hit her back because I know how much pain it would cause and the idea of her in pain is tragic.

There's another reason above and beyond your good behavior.  If you lose your cool, you expose yourself to serious legal consequences.  Conversely, when she hits you, that also is considered Domestic Violence (DV).  DV is a very serious matter, not to be ignored or accepted.

Even before I concluded there was no hope for my marriage, I started to (quietly) record my spouse's rants and rages.  (This was before smart phones, so I used digital voice recorders.)  I felt I needed proof I wasn't the one aggressively causing conflict.  She of course played the victim but what an aggressive "victim" she was.  And yes, eventually the police and courts got involved.

That you've just bought a home ties you even deeper into the marriage.  If the marriage does end then you'd likely have to sell the home and split the equity, if any.

We have two kids, teenagers, one of whom left the home last year after a fight with her while I was travelling. Moved states to his dad's.

If the children have other fathers then, unless you've adopted them, domestic relations (family) court would not view you as the legal parent.  Of course, consultation beforehand with a local family law attorney is vital to know where you stand in a variety of aspects, including parenting status, etc.

[Notwendy]

I wonder why the son couldn't choose to live with his father. I recall as a teen that I would have wanted to do that too, if it had been an option for me. It's impossible to completely shield anyone in the family from the BPD behavior. It impacted my BPD mother's relationship with me as a teen too.

[bluebird314]

I wonder why the son couldn't choose to live with his father. I recall as a teen that I would have wanted to do that too, if it had been an option for me. It's impossible to completely shield anyone in the family from the BPD behavior. It impacted my BPD mother's relationship with me as a teen too.

First and foremost, thank you all. I'm doing prep work for my NEABPD course and sleeping in my office tonight. I haven't cried in a long while. Not because I'm afraid to cry, but because I've learned that keeping my emotions small keeps me unnoticed. Or so I thought.

NotWendy - this comment hit home. If I'm honest, me *today* would not have dated my wife. She had two children with two different men (not a problem). The oldest's father was incarcerated and the youngest's father and she went through a very nasty divorce (he suffers from a schizophrenic bipolar combination). Little (thirty year old) me said... "I can fix this!" I was ignorant. But I fell in love with her and the kids (my reasons for staying, both of them). I believed (and believe) that she wasn't who I was seeing, but someone stuck behind trauma layers and history of abuse. And that the kids needed real love and leadership from a stable male figure. In other words... the white knight rescuer who had no clue how shortsighted he was.

Our oldest left for his dad's. His dad lives in squalor, works odd jobs and moves in and out of prison. I'm proud of him: he quickly realized this wasn't the life he wanted. He and my wife mended (she's been very good with him since) and they've done wonders. He's an amazing guy who has taken more on his mantle then he ever should have had to. But... that's life.

I remember asking him when I got home from my travelling gig (before he left): Is this what you want? I had to call, because he was staying at a friend's. And he said "I don't know another way."

And here I am, too, not knowing another way.

The house? Solvable. Kids? Sadly, not mine. Solvable. Pets? Dividable. Money? Split the debt.

The fire on the pyre is that tomorrow is her birthday. I'm sure you all can spell wonders about resentments, but I'm served every failure on a platter on a daily basis (near daily for five years, at least).

But when it's good, it's good.

I'm really grateful for you all. I'll move out of this phase and hope to be a contributing and helpful member of this community.

I'll add a small nugget: I dated a woman in 2014 for a year. Undiagnosed, but I'm confident of a B-complex disorder. Things like "get out of this car so I can drive it into a wall."

Had I known my wife had BPD, I would not have dated or pursued this relationship. We began dating in 2018, married in 2020 (amidst a spat between my mom and her, of course) and she was diagnosed in 2022.

Damn, how I'd do it all different. But I still love her. All of her. Even the _____ty parts. I just wish they were kinder.

[Notwendy]

It doesn't sound like the son's father's place was a good situation for the son, so that wasn't an option for him.

I think most posters would say they had no idea of the complexity of being with a pwBPD at the beginning, even if the diagnosis was known.

Every poster is an important part of this thread. It's OK to need advice. We all do at times. This is also a lay board- and we share our own experiences and what we learned on the way. Being on this board has helped me to understand the dynamics between my parents better.

The meanness- the verbal insults and accusations, these are difficult. It's hard to not react or feel them personally. The reality is that, when dissociated, they are less about you than the pwBPD's projections of their uncomfortable feelings in the moment. That doesn't mean you have to tolerate verbal abuse, but it helps to be able to hold on to your own reality- that what she says in the moment, doesn't define you.

[bluebird314]

but it helps to be able to hold on to your own reality- that what she says in the moment, doesn't define you.

Well put.

[wantmorepeace]

She then texted me saying if i didn't leave the home immediately she would be physically violent with me when she got home. I left, not responding to her texts. They kept flooding in. Then I called her and said "I will not text you, but I will speak with you."

That was a misstep. I removed my own boundary. She hurled insults at me and I took the bait. I said things I've been wanting to say. "God forbid someone doesn't actually want to leave you," "you are the biggest victim I know" and "you are emotionally and physically abusive." On the other line, she was screaming and hyperventilating from her car.

It felt good. Then it didn't.

Hello.  I don't know how you felt when you wrote these words, but if you were feeling bad about letting go of your boundary or saying something non-dbtish, I just want to say, "You're human!"  And it doesn't really make a difference past the very short-term anyway.

I just did the same -- after lots of blaming, lambasting, etc., I let loose with some (truthful) non-dbt frustration and messed up my own boundary of not responding to that stuff.  Then I felt like I should apologize -- even though it happened in the middle of me getting verbally whipped.  Thank goodness, a friend talked me out of it.

[ForeverDad]

This is moment for some blunt talk.  My then-spouse and I had been married for over a decade.  Life was gradually but increasingly getting worse.  Clueless me, I got the idea to have a child with her, hoping* she would reverse course and be happy watching our child discover the joys of life.  Instead, she became even more dysfunctional and discord became more extreme.  (Looking back, I have concluded one factor was that in her eyes I morphed from a husband to a father.  She came from a home with a mother who clung to her abusive stepfather.)

* Promises, wishes and hopes typically turn out to be disappointing "hopium".

As for your situation, your spouse has a child from each of at least two failed relationships.  Ponder the consequences of her getting yet another child - from your failing relationship.

Learn from our experiences here.  Having children with an unstable and disordered spouse makes everything vastly more complicated and distressing.  Even a divorce would be more complicated with the added issues of custody and parenting.

Probably best to avoid having a child - being in charge of birth control decisions - until you have decided which path your future takes.

[bluebird314]

Learn from our experiences here.  Having children with an unstable and disordered spouse makes everything vastly more complicated and distressing.  Even a divorce would be more complicated with the added issues of custody and parenting.

Probably best to avoid having a child - being in charge of birth control decisions - until you have decided which path your future takes.

Very poignant talk, even if blunt. These are all incredibly important points. Thank you to everyone here for all of your thoughts and input. Navigating the first 24 hours of our separation has gone how you'd imagine it would... I know that even *with* every tool in the chest, I'm only one part of this equation.

[Notwendy]

Hello.  I don't know how you felt when you wrote these words, but if you were feeling bad about letting go of your boundary or saying something non-dbtish, I just want to say, "You're human!"  And it doesn't really make a difference past the very short-term anyway.

I just did the same -- after lots of blaming, lambasting, etc., I let loose with some (truthful) non-dbt frustration and messed up my own boundary of not responding to that stuff.  Then I felt like I should apologize -- even though it happened in the middle of me getting verbally whipped.  Thank goodness, a friend talked me out of it.

At the later part of my father's life- he was ill and I was upset about that and not in an emotional place to handle BPD mother, I let loose on her and told her exactly what I thought.

It felt good to speak my mind in the moment but also later, regret and feeling badly about myself for that. The position of "mother" is held in high esteem- we are not supposed to speak to our parents like that. I also didn't want to hurt her. I was upset about all that was going on.

Then came the retaliation. I think a "normal" mother could have taken the perspective that if a person is about to lose their father, they are not in a stable emotional place, and would want to  keep the relationship. In another situation, I think both would have been invested in apologizing and reconciliation.

I think it will help to read about the Karpman triangle dynamics. https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle. I think pwBPD maintain "Victim" position on the triangle. Others take on the other roles- Rescuer, Persecutor, but not Victim. The pwBPD is the only "victim".

That is why, if someone else is feeling hurt, or sad- the pwBPD can not perceive this. Understandable that this situation was difficult for BPD mother but she could not also see that it was difficult for the adult children too. So, to her, I could only be in Persecutor position and she would retaliate in self defense.

(Of note- physical abuse was not present in any of the interactions. BPD mother didn't resort to that, and neither did anyone else even consider it.)

I realized that expressing feelings of hurt or anger to her did no good and made the situation worse. It wasn't worth doing. Even though there were times I did get angry, and say angry things in the moment (we are all human) I didn't get angry at her like that again. I could catch myself, stop, and tone it down sooner.  I compared this to "peeing in the wind". Due to projection of difficult feelings- it all comes back at you.

My boundaries became quiet ones. The acronym, from 12 steps is "HALT"- hungry, angry, lonely, tired, and you can add other emotions to them. If I was feeling any of them, it was a sign for me to take a time out, get a grip on myself, and wait until I felt calm enough to interact. If this meant politely, getting off the phone, stepping out of the room, saying "I need a moment" or "I need to think about that" or just going quiet and stop talking. It takes two to have these interactions, one can decide to not keep talking.

[bluebird314]

Thank you for sharing that story Notwendy; that's intense and I can relate to that feeling of sadness that accompanies speaking  your mind.

The triangle is very helpful, I've not seen that before. Thank you for sharing that resource.

I've pissed in the wind three times in this relationship. I can count them on my hand. I regret each one, and  then it happens again when I'm emotionally cornered. Hindsight... woof.

[ForeverDad]

Navigating the first 24 hours of our separation has gone how you'd imagine it would... I know that even *with* every tool in the chest, I'm only one part of this equation.

All of us here know how precarious those changes are, from "in the marriage" to "separated".  This is a time where risks are heightened, DV is more likely and especially false allegations and petitions for protection.  The disordered spouse will be prone to claim victimhood, whether true or not.  So be especially careful now that you take special care not to appear aggressive in any way (or get "framed for mischief").

I've often framed my comments as "imagine you have a judge watching over your shoulder".

I can't count the number of allegations made against me during our separation and the early years of our divorce.  Of course, child custody was at stake so therefore her allegations, though unsubstantiated, were quite vicious and nasty.  Through it all I somehow remained calm and didn't retaliate in kind.

[Notwendy]

We are all humans and if someone is being verbally and emotionally abusive-  eventually, we feel pushed over the edge. When we react, we do it to somehow get the other person to stop, or see the impact this has on us and feel motivated to stop, or sometimes if we've resisted reacting, we just can't in the moment.

I had been living away from home for quite some time, and while I did continue to see my parents, during this time, I spent more time staying with them and so experienced more of BPD mother's behavior than before. Seeing this dynamic from an adult perspective, I learned that it didn't do any good and in fact, would mostly be hurtful to me to do it.

For BPD mother, it did feel hurtful in the moment, but her response to feeling that way was to dissociate and project it outward. So she didn't learn from her behavior, and it didn't change anything. I think our reasons to not do this may come from not wanting to hurt the other person, but at this point, I realized that doing this would be hurtful to me too.

In fact, when BPD mother was being hurtful to someone else, sometimes if they reacted to that, she'd be bewildered and think they were hurting her instead. Sometimes she was deliberately hurtful on purpose but other times, she didn't connect her behavior to how someone else reacted. She was overwhelmed with her own feelings. Other people's feelings were not in her perception.

I think another reason we express anger and hurt to someone is because we are invested in the relationship. We want them to see that what they are doing isn't helpful to the relationship. We want to find some way to reconcile. Seeing that this also didn't help achieve that, I didn't see any reason to do it.

It's not wrong to feel anger or hurt. They are legitimate feelings. However, we can choose how to respond to that, and for me, it was keeping some boundaries. They may not have been the same as some in a romantic relationship but I think the general idea- if we feel that way- we need to be able to calm down and then decide how to respond fits all relationships.

[Notwendy]

How firm are you in this being a separation? Maybe I'm wrong but I get the sense from your posts that this is a reactive situation, coming from a recent escalation, rather than a situation that you have come to a decision to do this. It seems that prior to this, you were working in therapy, bought a house, not planning a separation. Then an escalation happened.

Either way- firm in the decision, or not so sure and reacting, I think it helps to know where you are at in all of this. Your wife's feelings can change. In one moment she can be yelling at you to leave and then when you do, be yelling at you for leaving.

There's a push-pull to these kinds of relationships. An escalation, then there's the reconciliation. Looking at your wife's feelings as the decision maker- you will be going back and forth with this.

If you aren't at the point that you choose to leave the marriage, then this may be a temporary situation. It's not a bad thing to have some time to yourself to think about things. Your wife may be escalating now, and out of control. Your task is to manage your feelings, try to stay calm in the storm, for now.

[bluebird314]

How firm are you in this being a separation? Maybe I'm wrong but I get the sense from your posts that this is a reactive situation, coming from a recent escalation, rather than a situation that you have come to a decision to do this. It seems that prior to this, you were working in therapy, bought a house, not planning a separation. Then an escalation happened.

Would it surprise you if I said it's complicated, and I'm Jell-O? Hah.

This first happened in 2022-ish, prior to her diagnosis. Years might be off. She had a large emotional movement, bigger than I'd seen before, brought on my an abrupt stop on taking anti-depressives she had been diagnosed. They weren't working but cold turkey didn't help. I was told to leave, and so I went to a hotel and stayed for a week.

It happened a little bit around a year ago, and also before then. But this year has been the worst. Coinciding with some agreeably inconsiderate actions on my side (legitimate moments that didn't make her feel like she mattered) it just blew up. I spent a week at a friend's in March before returning home. A few nights at my office. And then again in June for a day or two. And now, now.

Along the way, I'm wanting us to stay in therapy (this coming week would have been our move to a DBT-based couples therapist) and waiting for my DBT coursework to begin. She's actively in DBT since January in addition to doing an emergency 12 week course last year as FMLA. It's... been a rough year.

I think we need to be apart right now. She is not in her right mind. And the anger comes both ways, making it damned either way. But I'm not seeking Divorce. I've told her if she wants it, "get an attorney." I have one, but (no joke) I've also filled out divorce paperwork for us (3) times in this marriage. Each time, prior to going to the notary, she backs off.

The delusion I have today is that "if I do DBT, I can fix this." I hear everyone... I cannot change her. But I keep thinking... maybe another 4-5 months of DBT and we'll get there?

This round has been hard. The last 10 or so days (I was at home during them) happened after an argument about why I hadn't moved my last books into our new home (we had a 30 day overlap). I tried to explain that I wanted a few at my office, a few didn't matter and then I'd bring the rest over and was met with "you make excuses." When I tried to establish a boundary and ask we not talk about this until our couples session, I was met with an increasingly loud attack against me, my character, my loyalty, and my ability to "leave whenever I want to." A week after moving in to our home, a few weeks after signing our loan... . Sigh.

In these moments it is and isn't her. So I waffle. If she takes it to an attorney and wants to get ugly, I'm not worried. But it's not what I want. And in the middle of a heated text beratement (because I won't block her yet and she won't talk on the phone) she'll often say "why couldn't you be the soft pillow I need, or why haven't you stopped  to say 'Baby, baby, I love you' even once during the last ten minutes?"

Makes me feel delusional.

Don't call me. Why didn't you call?
I hate you. I love you.
Leave. Don't leave.

She's not right in her mind. The pebble at the top of the cliff became a landslide on the town (me) below. Problem is, the way I see it... I probably had something to do with that pebble during a hike. So I'm like... okay, let's find new places to put our pebbles!

My support group condones me leaving. And understands that I'm wrestling with it.

But I look at how close we got to everything we've been working for and it just feels  like... damn, this is just an attempt to self-sabotage.

So I'm firm in not going home right now. Not for two weeks. I'm firm  on not wanting a divorce but not being afraid of what's next. I'm just really, really exhausted.

I need this time. Just to rebuild and refill my cup.

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, your experience is one we're familiar with.  Without meaningful therapy and diligent application of the therapy in her perceptions, behavior and her overall life... well, as you've seen, everything gets progressively worse over time.

Can you deal with the situation as it is, not as you wish or hope it to be?  It's a sad reality that that when the conflict and discord has reached levels such as this, it is very difficult for the disordered partner to decide to truly want to work toward mental health recovery.  Not impossible, but quite a difficult task.  The typical Denial, Obstruction, Blaming and Blame Shifting is that strong.

[ForeverDad]

The delusion I have today is that "if I do DBT, I can fix this." I hear everyone... I cannot change her. But I keep thinking... maybe another 4-5 months of DBT and we'll get there?

DBT therapy is primarily for your spouse's mental health benefit, but of course the lessons and concepts taught are beneficial for us all.  If you do your work but she merely gives it token effort, then it's not enough to repair the relationship.

[Pook075]

She's not right in her mind. The pebble at the top of the cliff became a landslide on the town (me) below. Problem is, the way I see it... I probably had something to do with that pebble during a hike. So I'm like... okay, let's find new places to put our pebbles!

Your wife has had at least three serious relationships in her life.  There's you, there's dad #1, and dad #2.  And I'm guessing there's others you've heard about.

Dad #1 didn't work out.  Dad #2 didn't work out.  None of the others I don't know about did either.  And maybe that's not fair, we all have failed dating relationships in our past.  But there's an important question here.

How does she describe Dad #1 or Dad #2?  Were they good guys who she met when they were just in different places in her life?  Or were they abusive jerks who were bent on hurting her, taking advantage of her?

I'm not asking your opinion here or what you know about these guys.  I'm asking for HER OPINION.

Why?  Because I want you to see the crystal clear pattern.

If your wife is like our BPD current and former loved ones, then every person they've ever loved has been mean, abusive, and out to ruin them.  They did terrible things, they're complete monsters!  Yet when your wife sees them in person, they smile and laugh and seem to get along just fine.  Huh. 

Those pebbles rolling down the cliff that are turning into boulders, you absolutely carry some blame in all of that.  We did as well in our relationships.  But you have to see this, truly understand it...why were those same issues in every single one of your wife's past relationships, going all the way back to her parents and siblings?

It's the way she processes things that turns pebbles into unstopable forces.  She does that within her mind, and it's why she struggles to forgive, to apologize, to let go of wounds.

Do you have a role to play in all this?  Sure.  But this is not your fault; it never was.  Again, look at her past, her entire life...those pebbles and boulders where there the entire time.  Different people, same story.  That proves it's not a "you thing" at all.

[Notwendy]

Would it surprise you if I said it's complicated, and I'm Jell-O? Hah.

This first happened in 2022-ish, prior to her diagnosis. Years might be off. She had a large emotional movement, bigger than I'd seen before, brought on my an abrupt stop on taking anti-depressives she had been diagnosed. They weren't working but cold turkey didn't help. I was told to leave, and so I went to a hotel and stayed for a week.

It happened a little bit around a year ago, and also before then. But this year has been the worst. Coinciding with some agreeably inconsiderate actions on my side (legitimate moments that didn't make her feel like she mattered) it just blew up. I spent a week at a friend's in March before returning home. A few nights at my office. And then again in June for a day or two. And now, now.

I've also filled out divorce paperwork for us (3) times in this marriage. Each time, prior to going to the notary, she backs off.

The delusion I have today is that "if I do DBT, I can fix this." I hear everyone... I cannot change her. But I keep thinking... maybe another 4-5 months of DBT and we'll get there?

In these moments it is and isn't her. So I waffle. If she takes it to an attorney and wants to get ugly, I'm not worried. But it's not what I want. And in the middle of a heated text beratement (because I won't block her yet and she won't talk on the phone) she'll often say "why couldn't you be the soft pillow I need, or why haven't you stopped  to say 'Baby, baby, I love you' even once during the last ten minutes?"

Makes me feel delusional.

Don't call me. Why didn't you call?
I hate you. I love you.
Leave. Don't leave.

She's not right in her mind. The pebble at the top of the cliff became a landslide on the town (me) below. Problem is, the way I see it... I probably had something to do with that pebble during a hike. So I'm like... okay, let's find new places to put our pebbles!

My support group condones me leaving. And understands that I'm wrestling with it.

But I look at how close we got to everything we've been working for and it just feels  like... damn, this is just an attempt to self-sabotage.

So I'm firm in not going home right now. Not for two weeks. I'm firm  on not wanting a divorce but not being afraid of what's next. I'm just really, really exhausted.

No, this doesn't surprise me and it's wny I asked "how firm" are you in leaving because it didn't seem from your posts like you were.

I saw my parents go through this several times. I think it goes along with the push-pull behavior of BPD. PwBPD have difficulty managing their own uncomfortable feelings, and they project/dissociate. But once these feelings are "out"- they feel better. They revert to their "nice" selves- the nice self we see them as "really" under all that BPD.

However, BPD mother could not take accountability for her behavior. In her mind she was "good now" and the expectation was that whatever happened would be forgotten. You didn't dare bring it up, she'd just get angry if you did. I compare this to a small child who eats too many sweets, gets a stomach ache, and throws up. The child then feels better, runs off to play.

But it did happen. She may have felt better after these episodes, but we didn't. The verbal criticism- the "I hate you don't leave"- it is what it is. If you can see it as emotional "throw up", not as personal to you, it helps a little.

BPD mother's behavior was explainable. It had a name. Dad was more complicated, being the more emotionally stable and so I perceived him as the "normal" one. But he could waver along with these behaviors. BPD mother would escalate, act out to the point where it was impossible to not see it. He would seem to be aware of it, or she'd make a divorce threat. For the moment, it would appear that divorce might be on the table.

Then it wasn't. She was in her loving good mood again, Dad going along with it. Sometimes his actions were also influenced by BPD mother's moods. To us, he was the "good parent"- and yet, if BPD mother decided something, or was angry at someone, (deserved or not) he'd go along with her, sometimes doing what appeared inconsistent to me.

Or, as you put it- "delusional"? Sometimes it seemed he was spellbound by her. I could see why. She could be beautiful, charming at times, and yet, there was the other side to her.

To me, this appeared to be a difficult relationship. But it was his decision to decide on, and nothing anyone could say or do could change that. You will decide in your own time. This is a familiar situation to many people here- and also a reason for not telling people which way to go- it's a personal decision.