Advice on collecting evidence of DWI incident

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi everyone,

I recently got some news of an incident that occurred while my D was with her mom.  My D told me about it, although she was worried about telling me because she said her mom angrily demanded she promise NOT to tell me, and didn't want to suffer any blowback if she learned she told me (I said I would be discreet). 

The incident involved a drunk driving accident BPDxw caused.  Basically, they were returned from an event, and her mom had been drinking (daughter said the adults in the group had "a bunch of bottles of champaign").  In one car was BPDxw, her friend, and her friend's kids, and D was in the car behind watching this happen.

I guess, BPDxw tried putting her car in some kind of auto-pilot mode (this was not a Tesla, but an SUV with lane following assist), so she could stand in the sunroof while the car was driving. 

YES, with kids in the car, WHILE she was driving, she wanted to stand up in the sunroof, and feel the wind in her hair or whatever.  The car swerved dangerously the first time she tried it, and then she incredibly tried it again, and on the second attempt, the car veered off the road and hit a mailbox before coming to a stop in someone's yard.  A child in the car was apparently injured in the accident. 

I guess the car was still driveable, and they were able to get it home without getting caught, or anyone filing a police report, as far as I know. 

So my question:  How can I obtain evidence of this incident that would hold up in court? 

I'm thinking of calling the local PD, and asking if anyone reported any property damage like this, or the incident itself.  I think all the adults involved in the incident would deny it - even the parents of the child injured (they're that kind of people). 

According to my daughter, her step dad also drinks while driving... I don't know if her mom does, but I do know when her mom drinks, any self control goes out the window completely. 

Don't want to start an incident if it leads to nothing, but I also don't want to do nothing if it leads to my daughter being harmed if/when they do something like this again.  Also don't know if this is enough to go to court over...   Daughter mentioned living with me again, but said she was afraid of them being angry and abusive toward her during the time she would be at her mom's home if we flipped custody.

[PeteWitsend]

Hi everyone,

I recently got some news of an incident that occurred while my D was with her mom.  My D told me about it, although she was worried about telling me because she said her mom angrily demanded she promise NOT to tell me, and didn't want to suffer any blowback if she learned she told me (I said I would be discreet). 

The incident involved a drunk driving accident BPDxw caused.  Basically, they were returned from an event, and her mom had been drinking (daughter said the adults in the group had "a bunch of bottles of champaign").  In one car was BPDxw, her friend, and her friend's kids, and D was in the car behind watching this happen.

I guess, BPDxw tried putting her car in some kind of auto-pilot mode (this was not a Tesla, but an SUV with lane following assist), so she could stand in the sunroof while the car was driving. 

YES, with kids in the car, WHILE she was driving, she wanted to stand up in the sunroof, and feel the wind in her hair or whatever.  The car swerved dangerously the first time she tried it, and then she incredibly tried it again, and on the second attempt, the car veered off the road and hit a mailbox before coming to a stop in someone's yard.  A child in the car was apparently injured in the accident. 

I guess the car was still driveable, and they were able to get it home without getting caught, or anyone filing a police report, as far as I know. 

So my question:  How can I obtain evidence of this incident that would hold up in court? 

I'm thinking of calling the local PD, and asking if anyone reported any property damage like this, or the incident itself.  I think all the adults involved in the incident would deny it - even the parents of the child injured (they're that kind of people). 

According to my daughter, her step dad also drinks while driving... I don't know if her mom does, but I do know when her mom drinks, any self control goes out the window completely. 

Don't want to start an incident if it leads to nothing, but I also don't want to do nothing if it leads to my daughter being harmed if/when they do something like this again.  Also don't know if this is enough to go to court over...   Daughter mentioned living with me again, but said she was afraid of them being angry and abusive toward her during the time she would be at her mom's home if we flipped custody.

[ForeverDad]

Your divorce lawyer ought to be able to provide some ideas?

If your daughter is in counseling, she might share that with the counselor.  No idea if another's child is put at risk makes an enforceable difference.

My SUV is a few years old and if I'm using cruise control it will do some limited level of lane assist but if my hands leave the steering wheel for more than about 10 seconds it alerts and stops the lane assist.

[CC43]

Hi,

One sign that your daughter is telling the truth is that her mom swore her to secrecy!

One thing your daughter might do is approach a school counselor and express her concerns about her mother and stepdad driving drunk, because it puts her in harm's way.  That might impel the counselor to report, which might trigger a CPS investigation.

I don't know to what extent gathering evidence yourself would be admissable in court, but my recommendation would be to try to photograph your ex's car for damage (discreetly of course), and possibly the mailbox.  You know the mantra here--document, document, document.  Even if the "evidence" doesn't reach the courtroom, I think it might help substantiate a case, such as with CPS.  My sister did that sort of thing with her ex, who was an unsafe driver and got into accidents, some like the one you describe.  Ultimately, her kids' concerns about smaller accidents, near-misses and getting lost on familiar routes were enough for courts to remove their dad's ability to drive the kids anywhere.  I'm pretty sure it all started when one of the kids approached a school counselor about this.

If your ex is anything like my disordered uNPD family member, she will have a spotty driving record.  The police might have a file on her.  In other words, one report of a small accident with no police intervention or evidence might be disregarded.  But if you can establish a pattern and reason for ongoing concern, then you might get something done about it.  One standard approach would be to require a breathalyzer test whenever your daughter is driven by her mom, to ensure your daughter's safety.

[CC43]

PS

In the meantime, you tell your daughter that her safety comes first, no matter what.  If your daughter suspects that a driver is drunk, she shouldn't get in the car in the first place.  If she has a cellphone, she should call for help--you, another adult, 911.  If she doesn't have a cellphone, then she should find another adult/teacher/friend-with-a-phone and ask them for help.  You can frame it in terms of your daughter's safety, not about her mom or stepdad. 

[Notwendy]

Hi everyone,

I recently got some news of an incident that occurred while my D was with her mom.  My D told me about it, although she was worried about telling me because she said her mom angrily demanded she promise NOT to tell me, and didn't want to suffer any blowback if she learned she told me (I said I would be discreet). 

The incident involved a drunk driving accident BPDxw caused. 

According to my daughter, her step dad also drinks while driving... I don't know if her mom does, but I do know when her mom drinks, any self control goes out the window completely. 

 Daughter mentioned living with me again, but said she was afraid of them being angry and abusive toward her during the time she would be at her mom's home if we flipped custody.

The driving under the influence is a concern, but I emphasized these statements too. Your D is afraid of her BPD mother being angry and abusive. These stood out to me because, I felt this way too.

I don't have legal information for how to proceed. I think it is worth talking to your attorney about what to do, if there's anything possible. If your D is old enough to have a voice, expressing her feelings is in her favor. Even without the evidence of drunk driving- she's afraid.

I don't know how much you can do without evidence, however, your D has a voice- she can speak up to her counselor about it, and also how to protect her from backlash, because her mother will likely react if she thinks she said something. But her feeling fearful of saying anything is significant- she's afraid to stand up for herself because of the consequences.

[PeteWitsend]

Your divorce lawyer ought to be able to provide some ideas?

If your daughter is in counseling, she might share that with the counselor.  No idea if another's child is put at risk makes an enforceable difference.

My SUV is a few years old and if I'm using cruise control it will do some limited level of lane assist but if my hands leave the steering wheel for more than about 10 seconds it alerts and stops the lane assist.

I need to get her in counseling.  It's been tough finding one that can see them, given my limited custody time during weekday 9-5 hours, but I'll see what I can do. 

When I spoke with my lawyer about the potential success of a custody flip, she said I don't have a slam dunk case, even with my D testifying she wants to live with me, which is frustrating, and a few years ago I blew a lot of money on an abortive attempt to flip custody, which didn't work out (I eventually threw in the towel).  My attorney DID say a DUI accident or a legal issue like that might be grounds for an immediate injunction, but here, there was no police report, no arrest, and I am sure it would boil down to a he-said/she-said debate with the adults closing ranks and my daughter having to be the only one to testify her mom was drinking. 

I think I'm going to talk to a PI for now and see whether we can uncover any evidence of the accident to corroborate the story. 

[PeteWitsend]

...
One thing your daughter might do is approach a school counselor and express her concerns about her mother and stepdad driving drunk, because it puts her in harm's way.  That might impel the counselor to report, which might trigger a CPS investigation.

...

So my ex moved to a really conservative area, and when she had CPS called on her home (because of loud screaming fights between her, her then-BF, and her mom) and I reported it to the school, the counselor did nothing - not even reach out to my daughter to find out what was going on, and wouldn't return my calls when I followed up.  I got the sense they view that sort of thing as a "family matter," and wouldn't get involved. 

I will talk to my daughter about seeing the counselor. 

[PeteWitsend]

The driving under the influence is a concern, but I emphasized these statements too. Your D is afraid of her BPD mother being angry and abusive. These stood out to me because, I felt this way too.

I don't have legal information for how to proceed. I think it is worth talking to your attorney about what to do, if there's anything possible. If your D is old enough to have a voice, expressing her feelings is in her favor. Even without the evidence of drunk driving- she's afraid.

I don't know how much you can do without evidence, however, your D has a voice- she can speak up to her counselor about it, and also how to protect her from backlash, because her mother will likely react if she thinks she said something. But her feeling fearful of saying anything is significant- she's afraid to stand up for herself because of the consequences.

I think she knows that if we go the lawsuit route, or she speaks up, despite the fact that adults might be sympathetic to her situation, inevitably she'll be back at her mom's house at some point after the hearings are over, and once she's there, she's at the "mercy"  of the adults there (her mom and her step-dad), who are going to do every manipulative thing known to man to get her to keep her mouth shut and maintain the status quo... screaming at her, crying, blaming her for their own issues, good cop/bad cop, etc. and it's unfortunate because I'm now in the position of being the one who knows but can't protect her from this. 

I think she's starting to see the issue that she doesn't want to live at her mom's house anymore, but - quite naturally given her age - does not want to cut her mom out of her life.  However, because of how her mom acts, on some level she knows there's no "happy medium" here, and when she does see her mom, it would have to be at her mom's house, where she'd be stuck and subject to the rages, hysterical crying, manipulative fights, etc. etc. 

[PeteWitsend]

So my ex moved to a really conservative area, and when she had CPS called on her home (because of loud screaming fights between her, her then-BF, and her mom) and I reported it to the school, the counselor did nothing - not even reach out to my daughter to find out what was going on, and wouldn't return my calls when I followed up.  I got the sense they view that sort of thing as a "family matter," and wouldn't get involved. 

I will talk to my daughter about seeing the counselor. 

edit: my daughter is at a new school now, so the counselor may be different, but it's a private school and her mom is paying the tuition (well... the child support I pay covers it), and so what are they going to do?  they must know that if they pursue the issue, they lose a paying student.

[Notwendy]

I think she knows that if we go the lawsuit route, or she speaks up, despite the fact that adults might be sympathetic to her situation, inevitably she'll be back at her mom's house at some point after the hearings are over, and once she's there, she's at the "mercy"  of the adults there (her mom and her step-dad), who are going to do every manipulative thing known to man to get her to keep her mouth shut and maintain the status quo... screaming at her, crying, blaming her for their own issues, good cop/bad cop, etc. and it's unfortunate because I'm now in the position of being the one who knows but can't protect her from this. 

I think she's starting to see the issue that she doesn't want to live at her mom's house anymore, but - quite naturally given her age - does not want to cut her mom out of her life.  However, because of how her mom acts, on some level she knows there's no "happy medium" here, and when she does see her mom, it would have to be at her mom's house, where she'd be stuck and subject to the rages, hysterical crying, manipulative fights, etc. etc. 

I understand, and it was similar for me, and also, my parents stayed together. Information on BPD wasn't available at the time, and none if us could know what was going on with BPD mother or how to better manage it. I think my father wanted to avoid anything that would cause her to escalate her behavior.

Saying or doing anything that might expose BPD mother's behavior was considered to be a major transgression, and would result in the kind of behavior your D wants to avoid.

As a teen, I would have chosen to live with my father if it had been an option but I also didn't understand the full picture as well as your D does- and like her, I didn't want to completely cut contact with my mother.

For me, my best option was college away from home. It may also be that way for your D as well. It also helped to spend time away from home- with other family members, summer camp, school activities and for your D, she has time with you at your place.

The driving is a concern. My BPD mother didn't like to drive. She would not have minded another option. I wonder if you and your D can sit down and come up with ideas for safe rides- can she ride to activities with a friend? I recall when my kids were that age, I didn't mind if other kids got a ride with my kids.

[Notwendy]

I realize your D isn't ready to go to college but I was thinking about it before I could go, and looking forward to being there, even though it took some time before I could be completely independent. (like most college students).

Costs were a concern but a state college was an affordable option, and had dorms.

When the time comes, you can sit down with your D and look at her options. I think many kids look for their "dream school"- some which are generous with financial aid, but a less costly state school also has dorms. It doesn't need to be very far away but far enough for your D to have some autonomy and independence.

Knowing college was the plan helped, because I knew there would be that situation in the plans. It also provided a "normal" situation, one that would not have upset BPD mother.

[CC43]

Hi there,

Regarding the school counselor, they are legally mandated reporters.  In other words, they have to break confidentiality if they suspect abuse or imminent danger.  I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if the source of the complaint is relevant, but it seems to me that there would be a difference between a child feeling scared/unsafe, vs. a potentially disgruntled parent tattling on an ex.  Now, every counselor is different, and they might exercise discretion when determining if something is "reportable," and decide to do the paperwork, too.  But my guess is that if your daughter went with her concerns about drunk driving, and then maybe followed up with other concerns, the counselor would have "enough" to report, and that could launch a CPS investigation.  From there, it's hard to say if CPS will find the homelife to be abusive or dangerous.  I can say that in my extended family, CPS came to that determination, but only after the second CPS investigation, because the disordered parent was a huge manipulator and consummate liar.  I guess that's why this site recommends to document, document, document, to establish patterns of abuse/danger/not acting for the welfare of the child.

I also agree with Notwendy about kids not wanting to completely cut out a parent from their life.  I think most children crave having a relationship with both parents--but in a set-up that protects their safety and development.  In my extended family, that means that kids live with mom, but they visit with their disordered dad while supervised by another adult (Grandma), and they don't stay overnight or drive with their dad (alone) anymore, because he cannot guarantee their safety.  He barely has the energy for a days-long visit as it is.  They do better with controlled contact, say dinner together at a restaurant.  That's about all their dad can handle.  But that's better than no relationship whatsoever, or the kids staying in his pig-sty home with no food, or letting him drive, drunken-like, falling asleep at the wheel, half blind from self-inflicted, untreated diabetes and kidney disease.

Notwendy makes a good point about getting excited about college.  I know that after visiting a couple of campuses in my teens, I was super-excited and motivated by the prospect of going to college and living on campus.  You know how scheduling a vacation in your calendar can lift your spirits, before you're even close to packing?  I think the same phenomenon happens with dreaming about college, because it's a beacon, a reminder that this period of living in a disordered household with mom has an expiration date.  It's not about severing the relationship with her, but more about feeling liberated and getting a chance to live in peace, if not now, then in a few short months or years.  By the same token, I think I mentioned here or on another thread, the benefits of facilitating for your daughter some opportunities to enrich her life outside of her mom's home/orbit:  summer camps, summer jobs, extracurriculars, a week living at a cousin's house, an internship, volunteer work, whatever.  These opportunities not only help her develop her sense of self, but also give her a break from the maternal chaos and a chance to experience what more "normal" life looks like.  I know that transportation can be an issue, but when I was a tween/young teen, what I did was carpool and take public transportation.  Maybe find a friend with a driver's license and do something with the friend, and help pay for gas in return.  Or find a friend with a parent who is willing and able to drive around, and pay for gas in return.  That sort of arrangement can work wonders.

[ForeverDad]

If you currently have less than a typical non-primary parent's parenting schedule (less than the usual "alternate weekends plus an evening or overnight in between") then seeking to flip the longstanding order may to too much at once.  How so?

I recall how shocked I was when my divorce lawyer told me that courts usually didn't make big changes to orders since too big a change might "shock" the child.  I almost felt like shouting, "What if not making a big change is shocking the child?"

That's why I've since had the impression that courts prefer to make smaller adjustments... so they can stop once the changes resolve the issues at hand.

For example, I kept going back to court every 2-3 years because issues never resolved.  I started with alternate weekends in the temp order, moved up to equal time/custody in the final decree, moved up to full guardianship a couple years later, finally moved up to majority time a few years after that.  He was almost 4 years old when we separated, he was still 11 years old when we finally had an order that "worked".

So my thought is that if you don't have the common non-primary parent schedule as mentioned in the first paragraph, that that "incremental" upgrade may be considered reasonable by the court.  It is normal for children to have alternate weekends with each parent.

Also, if you're not getting the usual alternate holidays and two to three weeks vacation with the kids each year then that also is something reasonable to get fixed.

[PeteWitsend]

...

The driving is a concern. My BPD mother didn't like to drive. She would not have minded another option. I wonder if you and your D can sit down and come up with ideas for safe rides- can she ride to activities with a friend? I recall when my kids were that age, I didn't mind if other kids got a ride with my kids.

There's not much we can do in that regard.  When I say her mom moved to a rural area, think: literally surrounded by farmland.  Her home is ~15-20 mins from the nearest freeway exit, and about the same distance to the local "downtown."  

On top of that, her mom is incredibly paranoid; when I try to broach topics or get more involved in activities, she starts questioning my motivation, refuses to provide information, and does everything she can to make it difficult.  So I mostly have stuck to the decree to handle things, and parallel parent.  I can't call her and discuss a concern, and while we occasionally do agree on switching some things, it's only in situations where it doesn't affect anything she wants to do.

[Notwendy]

I understand. Your D is already aware that sometimes intervening makes the situation worse.

She may not wish to speak to someone at her school. These are social ties for her and her mother. I didn't want people I knew to know about my mother. I felt there was some shame attached to that- not true, it wasn't my fault, but people who knew her tended to not believe us, and think we were being disrespectful. Also, discussing BPD mother to anyone outside the family was considered to be a serious transgression for my parents. A private counselor was the only safe option.

One thing that is different with your D is that- you can also provide some time away from her mother and while you won't triangulate, you are a safer person to speak to. You may feel badly that your D is in this situation, while you were able to not have to live with her mother. I can assure you that staying together didn't prevent us kids from experiencing BPD mother's behavior.

We kids later found ourselves in a similar situation with my father in his elder years over BPD mother's behavior. If we intervened on his behalf, BPD mother would escalate. It would be worse for all involved.

What you can do is be a safe person for your D to talk to, validate her feelings, encourage her taking steps to get to college- out of the house and be of support (financial, emotional, academic- to the best you can do this)  for her while she attains her independence. Once she has this then she can choose the extent of her relationship with her mother.

[ForeverDad]

Notwendy has often observed that, like so many others, she had no way to know what "normal" was since her childhood home environment was - surprise - not normal.

To some extent your child too does not experience normal home life when with her mother.  You've absorbed a lot of tools and skills while here.  I'm sure you've shared some of that (since minors can't register here).  You would do well to continue supporting her by continuing to share what skills you've learned.

There is a booklet that may be helpful for her to grasp the concept of protecting herself from poorly behaving people's actions.  It's described on our Book Club board, "An Umbrella for Alex".  As I recall, it doesn't focus on diagnostic labels but does give age-appropriate practical insight and ways to deal with problems.