How do I get him to leave?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So, I was hoping it would not come to this. We just had a lovely holiday together and he said it would be a lovely start to the year and that he would look for work when we got back. So we got back Saturday just gone.
Today he said he is getting pain again... .now this is just a complete head **** because he hasn't worked since we got married. I have been struggling financially since 2011. He finds out he has a kidney stone and gets that out last July and wham all the pain goes and he is off opiates and all other meds. They did a re-scan in January ( a follow up) and wrote to him to say he has 2 stones but that they are small so will follow him up in a year. We both figure well he isn't in pain and they are much smaller than the last one that he needed needed an operation to remove it so all is well.
I was finally looking forward to this being our year... .him finding work and working at therapy.
Then we get home from holiday and he starts being verbally abusive ( which he hasn't done in a year since coming off the opiates) and then this morning after getting back from therapy he announces he feels 'fobbed off' by the kidney surgeon as he is in a lot of pain. So I say... .Really? You haven't had any pain since July and you had your follow up scan in January when they found you had 2 small  Ones ( not sure if it is left over from the first op or new ones that have grown since) and it's just odd that all of a sudden you are in this crippling pain. I said. We really need to talk about when you will start applying for jobs ( I had given him a deadline for this spring) then he starts being abusive again.

I am soo sad. I am going to feel really used if he now says he will not look for work and that will be it for me. I cannot afford to keep our place and will have to think about moving. I told home this was the last year I could keep paying the creases in rent. We will be priced out next year if he isn't in work.

I am angry I have paid all rent, bills, loans, food, anything he wants! On my wage and I am in trouble. I was really holding out for things going well this year so this is a huge disappointment for me.

I think I have accepted the fact that I will have to ask him to leave. I am planning on talking to him in the morning but how do I get him to leave... .he has no one in this country so would have to go back to his own country. Where do I even begin?

[Jester20]

So, I was hoping it would not come to this. We just had a lovely holiday together and he said it would be a lovely start to the year and that he would look for work when we got back. So we got back Saturday just gone.
Today he said he is getting pain again... .now this is just a complete head **** because he hasn't worked since we got married. I have been struggling financially since 2011. He finds out he has a kidney stone and gets that out last July and wham all the pain goes and he is off opiates and all other meds. They did a re-scan in January ( a follow up) and wrote to him to say he has 2 stones but that they are small so will follow him up in a year. We both figure well he isn't in pain and they are much smaller than the last one that he needed needed an operation to remove it so all is well.
I was finally looking forward to this being our year... .him finding work and working at therapy.
Then we get home from holiday and he starts being verbally abusive ( which he hasn't done in a year since coming off the opiates) and then this morning after getting back from therapy he announces he feels 'fobbed off' by the kidney surgeon as he is in a lot of pain. So I say... .Really? You haven't had any pain since July and you had your follow up scan in January when they found you had 2 small  Ones ( not sure if it is left over from the first op or new ones that have grown since) and it's just odd that all of a sudden you are in this crippling pain. I said. We really need to talk about when you will start applying for jobs ( I had given him a deadline for this spring) then he starts being abusive again.

I am soo sad. I am going to feel really used if he now says he will not look for work and that will be it for me. I cannot afford to keep our place and will have to think about moving. I told home this was the last year I could keep paying the creases in rent. We will be priced out next year if he isn't in work.

I am angry I have paid all rent, bills, loans, food, anything he wants! On my wage and I am in trouble. I was really holding out for things going well this year so this is a huge disappointment for me.

I think I have accepted the fact that I will have to ask him to leave. I am planning on talking to him in the morning but how do I get him to leave... .he has no one in this country so would have to go back to his own country. Where do I even begin?

[formflier]

Hey... .why not deal with the presenting issue.  He is is pain.  

There are organic issues that he is dealing with.

Not a good idea to start "kitchen sinking" things by bringing in job search, therapy and all the other things.

What am I missing here?

Note:  Not excusing him being verbally abusive, but from a certain point of view I can have empathy with a guy in pain and his family is bringing up other issues.

I also have empathy with you.  There are obviously hopes and dreams of the way you believed things would be and other issues have gotten in the way.

Do you think you can approach him about the things you have said and try to diffuse things?  Perhaps a straight out apology... .ask him how he is feelings... .just listen.  Ask what his plans are to address his feelings?  

No suggestions yet... .just listen.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like you don't really believe that he's in pain, and being that you set a limit about him looking for work in the spring, it looks like a convenient excuse.

If I were in your situation, I know I'd be suspicious too and would sense that I was being used. (I had experience with a very similar situation with my ex-husband.)

You can't force him to do anything, but you can choose to exit the relationship yourself. Since you're paying the rent, you might set a date when you're moving and if he doesn't seek out employment, you will be moving alone, into a smaller, more affordable place to get your finances together.

[Jester20]

Hey... .why not deal with the presenting issue.  He is is pain.  

There are organic issues that he is dealing with.

Not a good idea to start "kitchen sinking" things by bringing in job search, therapy and all the other things.

What am I missing here?

Note:  Not excusing him being verbally abusive, but from a certain point of view I can have empathy with a guy in pain and his family is bringing up other issues.

I also have empathy with you.  There are obviously hopes and dreams of the way you believed things would be and other issues have gotten in the way.

Do you think you can approach him about the things you have said and try to diffuse things?  Perhaps a straight out apology... .ask him how he is feelings... .just listen.  Ask what his plans are to address his feelings?  

No suggestions yet... .just listen.

FF

Hi,
Thank you for your response. I have been dealing with his presenting issues for 5 years. Which was chronic pain. He knew there was a deadline to be in work by and he has been pain free for 8 months. Off of all medications.
I think it is slightly convenient he receives a letter from the dr 4 weeks ago saying there are 2 very small stones in his kidney and it is not something they would do about and then all of a sudden he has this pain back. As soon as I read the letter I knew this was coming.
But like you suggested I have asked him how he is this morning. He is ok but still in pain. I have told him I do not think this is kidney stone pain as it is not even in the right area... .I think this is over exertion from our walking holiday... .it was challenging even for me.

He knew way before Christmas that I couldn't afford to carry on this place and he knew there was a deadline of spring. I think I have been more than accommodating at the expense of my finances.

I have asked him when a good time to talk about work will be and he has said 1 weeks time. So I will not mention it for another week... .although he has done this for 5 years... .it's always been in 3 months, or when I have had my stone out, etc.

I have also told him that although I understand he finds things difficult I can not tolerate verbal abuse. I have told him he can not use his difficulties as justification for this. I wish I had learned to communicate like this years ago rather than rising to it and giving as good as I got... .this is the first time he has not shouted or screamed and actually I have never seen him speechless before... .and he was.
I wish I had not been pulled into the drama... .he likes to create that then pull you in and then wham a crisis. Addressing his abuse in the manner above leaves him with little place to create a drama as I am only being honest about my boundaries.

I have been learning to set healthy boundaries and I believe this is the way to do it. basically he has to be in work by spring and if he doesn't then he will have to go and visit his mother as hanging around here all day is no longer an option, he has to stop being verbally abusive otherwise I will file for divorce. These are the standards set for anyone else in normal relationships and I do not see why they should not apply to him. This was my problem I have always been excusing his behaviour... .where has it got me... .it got me a depression and very unhealthy relationship.

[Jester20]

It sounds like you don't really believe that he's in pain, and being that you set a limit about him looking for work in the spring, it looks like a convenient excuse.

If I were in your situation, I know I'd be suspicious too and would sense that I was being used. (I had experience with a very similar situation with my ex-husband.)

You can't force him to do anything, but you can choose to exit the relationship yourself. Since you're paying the rent, you might set a date when you're moving and if he doesn't seek out employment, you will be moving alone, into a smaller, more affordable place to get your finances together.

I'm cautious yes, I have been dreading this spring as I have constantly on my mind ' what will his next excuse be' I do believe he is experiencing some pain but I think it is all muscle related from being very active on our walking holiday. I do not for 1 minute believe this is kidney pain... .it's not even in the right area.
Well, if I end up having to leave then all the money comes with me as he has none then he will be evicted so if he is as clever as he thinks he is he will go visit his mum for a few weeks in USA so we can both have a break

[formflier]

I have been learning to set healthy boundaries and I believe this is the way to do it.  

This was my problem I have always been excusing his behaviour... .where has it got me... . 

Hulu,

The quotes above and the general tone of your post lead me to believe that you are ready to take the lead in your relationship and move yourself to a healthier place.     Inviting your partner to come along... .of course.


Babyducks is another poster on these boards that uses an analogy of splitting up issues into "their own buckets"... .and being disciplined to only deal with "one bucket at a time".  I think it would be wise for you to adopt this "lens" of looking at things.  Resist the temptation to "link" or "mix" buckets.

Yes... .I know that the issues influence each other.  Resist mixing buckets... .deal with one issue at a time.  Note:  Taking a 5 minute break, getting a fresh glass of water and starting a conversation on a new topic is plenty of separation.

I'm going to suggest some different buckets, also will ask some questions.

Full disclosure:  I'm the one in my r/s with chronic pain issues.  They stem from disabilities/injuries in service, some a result of combat.  There are a number of "organic" causes (you can look at an objective medical test and find a source) and I also know that relationship/mental issues exacerbate the way I experience pain.

In other words, stay away from black and white thinking.  It's not "all in his head"... .or "all in his body".  

How long has he been on opiates?  Honestly... .this scares me.  My entire pain management routine is designed to keep me away from opiates.  I'm in my 40s... .and will be managing pain for the rest of my life.  The goal is to kick opiates as far down the road as I can.

I have been dealing with his presenting issues for 5 years

OK... so you pretty much know how he is going to act/react... .right?  

In this 5 year period, how many "organic" causes of pain have been found?

As soon as I read the letter I knew this was coming.

Again... .you know the patterns.  Leadership in the relationship will look like YOU stepping outside the pattern and doing something different.  What are the chances he will change if you leave it up to him?

I have told him I do not think this is kidney stone pain as it is not even in the right area.

Invalidation alert... .I would guess that his verbal abuse was a dysfunctional response to being invalidated.  Please don't hear me "blaming" you for his verbal abuse.  Please do hear me saying you have a responsibility to avoid invalidating him.  

Do you understand this concept?

He knew way before Christmas that I couldn't afford to carry on this place and he knew there was a deadline of spring. I think I have been more than accommodating at the expense of my finances.

Reality alert  Keep this in separate bucket.  I know you want to "relate" it to his job... .please don't.  Let him relate it... .or not.  

When you have the job discussion in a week.  Have a separate discussion before talking about jobs where you "lay out your financial truth" to him.  No solutions... .just lay out reality and ask him to reflect it back to you.

"As things currently stand, money to support this apartment runs out in spring... "

let him reflect back...

take few minute break, then listen to him about job ideas.  No suggestions from you... .let him be an adult... .you listen, you can (and should) reflect back...

So I will not mention it for another week... .although he has done this for 5 years... .

So again... it's critical that YOU behave and speak differently than you have for past 5 years.

I have also told him that although I understand he finds things difficult I can not tolerate verbal abuse. I have told him he can not use his difficulties as justification for this.

bucket alert... .I would not wait a week to speak with him about this.  Please don't speak to him until you have worked out your message with us here.  

Don't mix messages with his job  The more succinct you are the more powerful your statement is.  Keep it positive, succinct and tied to YOUR action, not his (you don't want it to be blaming).

Would you like us to help you craft this message about no verbal abuse?

I am only being honest about my boundaries.

I think you are about 70% of the way there on boundaries.  I do sense some confusion about boundaries and desires.  About "rules" and "boundaries".  About "controlling yourself" and "controlling others".

FF Challenge:  Write the spring job deadline out as a boundary that reflects your values that YOU are responsible for protecting.

Write the same thing out in a manner that is a "rule" for him.  

That might even be a good separate post.  

Big deal:  Boundaries are for protecting you, NOT for controlling others... .even though others may "claim" they are being controlled.  

   

Hang in there... .I can tell you are hoping for a good outcome, doubting it will happen and dealing with a start financial reality... .all at the same time.  That is a lot on your plate!   I think we can help you sort out some communication style things that can make this easier.

FF

[Jester20]

Hulu,

The quotes above and the general tone of your post lead me to believe that you are ready to take the lead in your relationship and move yourself to a healthier place.     Inviting your partner to come along... .of course.


Babyducks is another poster on these boards that uses an analogy of splitting up issues into "their own buckets"... .and being disciplined to only deal with "one bucket at a time".  I think it would be wise for you to adopt this "lens" of looking at things.  Resist the temptation to "link" or "mix" buckets.

Yes... .I know that the issues influence each other.  Resist mixing buckets... .deal with one issue at a time.  Note:  Taking a 5 minute break, getting a fresh glass of water and starting a conversation on a new topic is plenty of separation.

I'm going to suggest some different buckets, also will ask some questions.

Full disclosure:  I'm the one in my r/s with chronic pain issues.  They stem from disabilities/injuries in service, some a result of combat.  There are a number of "organic" causes (you can look at an objective medical test and find a source) and I also know that relationship/mental issues exacerbate the way I experience pain.

In other words, stay away from black and white thinking.  It's not "all in his head"... .or "all in his body".  

How long has he been on opiates?  Honestly... .this scares me.  My entire pain management routine is designed to keep me away from opiates.  I'm in my 40s... .and will be managing pain for the rest of my life.  The goal is to kick opiates as far down the road as I can.

OK... so you pretty much know how he is going to act/react... .right?  

In this 5 year period, how many "organic" causes of pain have been found?

Again... .you know the patterns.  Leadership in the relationship will look like YOU stepping outside the pattern and doing something different.  What are the chances he will change if you leave it up to him?


Invalidation alert... .I would guess that his verbal abuse was a dysfunctional response to being invalidated.  Please don't hear me "blaming" you for his verbal abuse.  Please do hear me saying you have a responsibility to avoid invalidating him.  

Do you understand this concept?


Reality alert  Keep this in separate bucket.  I know you want to "relate" it to his job... .please don't.  Let him relate it... .or not.  

When you have the job discussion in a week.  Have a separate discussion before talking about jobs where you "lay out your financial truth" to him.  No solutions... .just lay out reality and ask him to reflect it back to you.

"As things currently stand, money to support this apartment runs out in spring... "

let him reflect back...

take few minute break, then listen to him about job ideas.  No suggestions from you... .let him be an adult... .you listen, you can (and should) reflect back...

So again... it's critical that YOU behave and speak differently than you have for past 5 years.

bucket alert... .I would not wait a week to speak with him about this.  Please don't speak to him until you have worked out your message with us here.  

Don't mix messages with his job  The more succinct you are the more powerful your statement is.  Keep it positive, succinct and tied to YOUR action, not his (you don't want it to be blaming).

Would you like us to help you craft this message about no verbal abuse?


I think you are about 70% of the way there on boundaries.  I do sense some confusion about boundaries and desires.  About "rules" and "boundaries".  About "controlling yourself" and "controlling others".

FF Challenge:  Write the spring job deadline out as a boundary that reflects your values that YOU are responsible for protecting.

Write the same thing out in a manner that is a "rule" for him.  

That might even be a good separate post.  

Big deal:  Boundaries are for protecting you, NOT for controlling others... .even though others may "claim" they are being controlled.  

   

Hang in there... .I can tell you are hoping for a good outcome, doubting it will happen and dealing with a start financial reality... .all at the same time.  That is a lot on your plate!   I think we can help you sort out some communication style things that can make this easier.

FF

Hi formflier,
I just want to say thank you so much for your on-going support. You have spent some time responding to me. This has been a really hard experience for me and I know I have not done very well for my husband. Only knowing his diognosis since 1 year ago and after buying a self book I realised I have been doing exactly the wrong thing for him with regards to how I communicate with him and at times I have properly exacerbated his condition.

Another issue is I have 5 years of hell stored up in me ... .I have not been able to tell my family any of this so when I found this place I just had all this anger to get out... .I can't really describe how I felt. I am not normally an angry person and I have never been so fiery to anyone in my whole life. I am a nurse by profession and work in trauma... .I love my work... .it's all I know how to do.
i feel it is important for you to know these things about me as I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about the sort of person I am.
I will now address each of your responses.

My husband is no longer on opiates. He will have been off them 1 year come April. This has been a huge achievement. He was addicted to them our dr said. He had been on them for 8 years following back surgery... .laminectomy L4.
I just mentioned the opiates as I was using them as an example of how different his mood is. He was very abusive during his opiate usage and since getting off of them he had not been verbally abusive to me... .until this week. I guess I was trying to say that I thought the verbal abuse was due to the addiction and now I am quite sad to realise that may not be the case.

I Do need help crafting a message about verbal abuse because this is the thing I cannot be flexible with. This is the thing that will see us separate so yes I need help in knowing how to make this very clear.

In the 5 years 2 organic sources of pain have been found.
1.) spinal stenosis when they did the L4 lami ... .for this they carved some bone out to make the spinal cord wider to stop the nerve from rubbing and causing issues. He also has a spinal cord stimulator but hasn't had to use that since number 2.

2.) was found to have a huge kidney stone Which needed to be removed surgically. Once this was out all pain went and hasn't had to use spinal cord stimulator since then July 2016.


Again... .you know the patterns.  Leadership in the relationship will look like YOU stepping outside the pattern and doing something different.  What are the chances he will change if you leave it up to him?
I'm not sure what you mean


Quote
I have told him I do not think this is kidney stone pain as it is not even in the right area.

Invalidation alert... .I would guess that his verbal abuse was a dysfunctional response to being invalidated.  Please don't hear me "blaming" you for his verbal abuse.  Please do hear me saying you have a responsibility to avoid invalidating him. 
No his verbal abuse wasn't a result of this conversation. I came home from work feeling really low, he picked up on this straight away and when he asked me what was wrong I just told him how low I was feeling and that I wasn't feeling like talking much... .I went to bed and got up for work the next day and was still feeling low. I came home from work and I just said I was still feeling low and needed time alone and he told me to go ****myself. He called me a ___ and told me to shut up when I asked him why he was being like this.

I do understand invalidating and yes I do agree that this probably happens it is something I am trying hard to work on.


Reality alert  Keep this in separate bucket.  I know you want to "relate" it to his job... .please don't.  Let him relate it... .or not. 

When you have the job discussion in a week.  Have a separate discussion before talking about jobs where you "lay out your financial truth" to him.  No solutions... .just lay out reality and ask him to reflect it back to you.

"As things currently stand, money to support this apartment runs out in spring... "

I am not sure what you mean by separate buckets?

You make lots of really good points. Thank you for all of your help with this and I'm sorry you experience chronic pain. Thank you for your service I will say to the world as I am not sure which country you are in.

[formflier]

I am not sure what you mean by separate buckets?

Each issue is separate.  Only deal with one bucket at a time... .so... .when you are discussing finances, don't "add in" a talk about his job.  I know... .I know they are related, so if HE brings it up... .gently discuss it and try to exit quickly.

Reasons:  pwBPD don't "hear" very well because their emotions get in the way.  They can feel overwhelmed quickly.  So... .one thing at a time is best. 

Many pwBPD will "kitchen sink" a discussion where they "toss everything in... including the kitchen sink"... .things get confused and nothing gets solved.  Everyone is frustrated and pwBPD have avoided responsibility.

So... .one "bucket" at a time.  Talk about it, understand it... .and hopefully solve it.  DO NOT be tempted by thinking "well... that bucket went well... let's try another... ".  Exit on a good tone and come back later for another bucket. 

Over time you will figure out how much of a break is needed. 

You make lots of really good points. Thank you for all of your help with this and I'm sorry you experience chronic pain. Thank you for your service I will say to the world as I am not sure which country you are in.

Thanks... United States.  I was a Naval Aviator.  Flew off aircraft carriers.  20 years of banging around in an airplane can take it's toll. 

I've gotten pretty good an managing things.  IMO... .the key is to stop when something flares up and deal with it, rather than try to push through. 

That is problematic for accomplishing things on a timetable.

Where are you located?

FF

[Jester20]

Each issue is separate.  Only deal with one bucket at a time... .so... .when you are discussing finances, don't "add in" a talk about his job.  I know... .I know they are related, so if HE brings it up... .gently discuss it and try to exit quickly.

Reasons:  pwBPD don't "hear" very well because their emotions get in the way.  They can feel overwhelmed quickly.  So... .one thing at a time is best. 

Many pwBPD will "kitchen sink" a discussion where they "toss everything in... including the kitchen sink"... .things get confused and nothing gets solved.  Everyone is frustrated and pwBPD have avoided responsibility.

So... .one "bucket" at a time.  Talk about it, understand it... .and hopefully solve it.  DO NOT be tempted by thinking "well... that bucket went well... let's try another... ".  Exit on a good tone and come back later for another bucket. 

Over time you will figure out how much of a break is needed. 


Thanks... United States.  I was a Naval Aviator.  Flew off aircraft carriers.  20 years of banging around in an airplane can take it's toll. 

I've gotten pretty good an managing things.  IMO... .the key is to stop when something flares up and deal with it, rather than try to push through. 

That is problematic for accomplishing things on a timetable.

Where are you located?

FF

I am in the UK. My husband is American. How do you know all of this stuff about BPD FF? Did you have to learn it? Or are we just meant to know?

[formflier]

I am in the UK. My husband is American. How do you know all of this stuff about BPD FF? Did you have to learn it? Or are we just meant to know?

Mainly bpdfamily.  I've read lots of books and had several good therapists.

I currently see a PhD level Psychologist once per week.  Main topic of our discussions is how I parent and act as a husband to a BPDish wife.  In all likelihood my wife is more PPD than BPD... .but most strategies are the same. 

Dealing with paranoia is a lot like avoiding invalidation.  You don't argue with weird ideas... you certainly don't validate them.  Mainly you just leave them alone.  Was very weird at first... .

Slowly but surely the paranoid theories dried up.

Things are much more stable than a few years ago. 

I've had some wonderful port visits in the UK.   

FF

[formflier]

Hey... I can tell that you have read some books and tried to apply some knowledge.  You are well on your way.

I'll also say that it's much easier to for me to sit back and "see" the dysfunction (on both sides of your r/s) than it is for me to identify it quickly in my r/s.

Especially when they throw you a curve ball.

Big picture:  You will get better at this, establish boundaries and think you have this BPD thing licked (Southern for solved... ... ..not sure how much you know about the US)

Then... .BAM... .he will do something whacky... .you will forget everything... .you will be sure you NEVER knew anything about BPD... .  Sigh.  Then... .an hour or two after calming down, you will realize what happened, figure out a "tool" to apply... and move on with your life.

I can't stress enough the importance of getting to a place where you kinda shrug at whatever crazy they do... wish them luck with it... .and... .move on with your life

That takes the power AWAY from them... and gives it back to you.  You define your life... .don't let a crazy person define your life... seriously.   

FF

[Jester20]

I have just been reading from the ' tools section'
I have been reading about boundaries.
I think I did this on the recent verbal abuse at the beginning of this week.
I decided to go out and spend time with people who do not verbally abuse me. Would this be setting a healthy boundary? I came home in the evening. My husband hasn't really said much to me since this... .it's the first time I have done this. It's been 4 days now. He just looks very sad and is very quiet. He might sit in the front room for a bit and we might share small talk over a cup of tea but he is mainly spending time alone in his room.
Is this a good example of healthy boundaries... .to leave when someone becomes abusive?

[Cat Familiar]

I decided to go out and spend time with people who do not verbally abuse me. Would this be setting a healthy boundary?

Yes! Good work! 

[formflier]

 My husband hasn't really said much to me since this... .it's the first time I have done this.  

Solid work on a boundary!  

Follow this up with continuing to reach out (gently) to your hubby.

He can choose not to talk... that's ok.  Bring him a glass of water (or tea... I love this tactic) and keep up the small talk.  I would not ask about his feelings... let him decide to bring them up... .or not.

I would "gently" bring your feelings into it.  You need to lead... .and don't freak when he doesn't follow.

So... .after tea... ."Hey... it would mean a lot to me (talking about your feelings... .not his) if you could xyz... ."  If he does it... .praise and thanks.  If he doesn't... .don't mention it again... .   The task should be something simple, that you know he can do.  This let's it be all about his choice to affect YOUR feelings.

The big picture is that holding a boundary is not punishment.  Think of it as him banging into the wall on your property.  You job is to hold the wall... .once he stops banging into it... .no need to mention it again.  He knows where it is.  

As long as you aren't moving the wall... .no need to talk about it again... .or remind him of times he banged into it.  

FF

[Jester20]

So we have still been having small talk but. I explained that I cannot be flexible with the verbal abuse. I spoke about my own levels of self esteem and feeling low. He listened but he didn't say anything about it. I think he is so overwhelmed with this dosrder that he just cannot really offer me that kind of understanding. But I know he is capable of understanding. For example, we watch films together... .it is one of our things we enjoy. Sometimes we watch psychological thrillers ( because they are my favourite) and I don't think he would want to watch them but he does... .and he can completely discuss what is going on in the film emotionally and on a psychological level. It just seems he cannot apply this to him or me.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

The pain he was talking about he did discuss today... .it's getting better and now he says it is just general ache and doesn't feel so bad as he did a few days ago... .
He doesn't think it is 'kidney pain' he just felt angry with the surgeon for saying they wasn't going to do anything because the stone is too small.

We talked about how being very inactive for 5 years ( he pretty much spent 5 years in bed) is bound to have caused some muscle atrophy and so the road to building his body back up may take longer... .we have been taking longer walks( 5-6 miles ) and I think he is physically weak and needs to give his body time to build back up.

I explained to him in my job as a nurse we get people who may not be able to get out of bed for 4-5 days and they ache a fair bit because their muscles seize up... .
he thought this was a good example and said it is difficult for him not to think like a chronic pain patient and that the psychological aspect of his issues with chronic pain might take a while longer to go. He explained that therefore, when he aches after doing more walking or walking faster he perceives delayed onset muscle soreness related pain to his previous pain issues.

I think that is enough for 1 day.

[formflier]

and he can completely discuss what is going on in the film emotionally and on a psychological level. It just seems he cannot apply this to him or me.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Yes... .I totally believe this.  Most pwBPD can "see it in others"... .but are not self aware.

If they start to examine themselves... .many times it can trigger shame.

Also, he is likely "regulated" while watching the movie.  When his emotions dysregulate... .all bets are off.

Please understand that BPD is a "in the moment" disorder.  So... .in one moment, he will likely be very together and "normal".  In another moment he will be out of control and have no memory of being in control.  When in control... .he "feels like" he is always in control... .and doesn't remember much about being out of control.

Last:  Chronic pain and walks.  Any chance to get him to go to some physical therapy.  Let them teach him how to stretch and warm up and cool down.  Focus on core work (same area as kidneys).

I go to phys therapy a couple times a week and stretch several times daily.   

My pain management routine is designed to minimize use of painkillers and never get close to opioids.

FF
 

[Jester20]

He is waiting for physiotherapy at the moment. His first session will be in may... .yes, like he says a long way away but this is the NHS. I'd be rich if I had a pound for every time he has to remind me that USA does not have waiting lists!

[Jester20]

Should I ever expect him to acknowledge how I feel or to apologise for anything? Or should I not

[formflier]

Should I ever expect him to acknowledge how I feel or to apologise for anything? Or should I not

Nope... .

Here is the thing... .you need to find other ways to validate yourself or get your emotions validated. 

Then, once you are not counting on him, the times he DOES validate or say sorry... .will seem more special.

"Counting on" a pwBPD to "be there" for you emotionally is not a good plan.  I get it that sucks... .

That is a place for radical acceptance.  It's also a place to make some choices.  If you want a partner that you can emotionally count on... .then... .well... .you need to look somewhere else.  You won't find it with a pwBPD.

Most people that stick around for a while, like me, will see how much better the r/s can get... .and once they find some kind of steady state, see if that is going to work... .long term.

How does reading this make you feel?

FF

[Jester20]

Nope... .

Here is the thing... .you need to find other ways to validate yourself or get your emotions validated. 

Then, once you are not counting on him, the times he DOES validate or say sorry... .will seem more special.

"Counting on" a pwBPD to "be there" for you emotionally is not a good plan.  I get it that sucks... .

That is a place for radical acceptance.  It's also a place to make some choices.  If you want a partner that you can emotionally count on... .then... .well... .you need to look somewhere else.  You won't find it with a pwBPD.

Most people that stick around for a while, like me, will see how much better the r/s can get... .and once they find some kind of steady state, see if that is going to work... .long term.

How does reading this make you feel?

FF

Not sure how I feel about this. I don't think I can lead a life with someone who isn't able to validate my feelings.

Also I just reminded my husband about our agreement to have a conversation about him and work tomorrow. He no longer wants to discuss it.

[formflier]

He no longer wants to discuss it.

This is where you can validate him... .and then express confidence that he is an adult and can work through things and have a conversation.

Don't solve this for him.  Listen... ask open ended questions... .try to limit your talking to reflecting back.

The key is for him to "get used to" you listening and giving him time to express himself.

If he bucks up  and won't discuss... .in fact if he does want to discuss it... .stay away from "why"... .  Instead use "help me understand... "  no... .don't use "help me understand why you... ."

"Help me understand the apparent reluctance to talk?"  (listen)

also try to strike "but" from your vocabulary.  Use the word "yet"... .much less invalidating.

Thoughts?

FF

[Beacher]

Yikes this sounds alllllł too familiar. My ex was a hoarder and for 6 years begged him to stop. Every time I tried to approach the situation it was NEVER a good time. Always stressed, trouble at work, I was stressing him out, I couldn't stand coming home. He worked from home a lot also and when his office filled up, he took residence at my desk in the dining room for the last 3 years. Our ( third) therapist finally said ' Kathy, there will always be an excuse'.
So the best advice I have heard in this thread is tell him a move out date and that will be that. Good luck and know there is a light at the end of the tunnel if you are calm and firm.

[Beacher]

Sorry, to clarify the date YOU are moving out.

[Jester20]

This is where you can validate him... .and then express confidence that he is an adult and can work through things and have a conversation.

Don't solve this for him.  Listen... ask open ended questions... .try to limit your talking to reflecting back.

The key is for him to "get used to" you listening and giving him time to express himself.

If he bucks up  and won't discuss... .in fact if he does want to discuss it... .stay away from "why"... .  Instead use "help me understand... "  no... .don't use "help me understand why you... ."

"Help me understand the apparent reluctance to talk?"  (listen)

also try to strike "but" from your vocabulary.  Use the word "yet"... .much less invalidating.

Thoughts?

FF

This is helpful. I did this the next day.
I used the word 'what' though. I said " what is it that is stopping you from wanting to discuss work"
It seemed to work. He said the following factors... .he hasn't worked in the uk before so that's making him anxious... .he doesn't understand how it works over here, the questions they will ask him... .mainly why he hasn't worked for 6 years and what has he been doing in that time... .,
Why he left his last job etc.

All of these I completely understand. We know the world around that some employers can be discriminating against mental health issues, he also recovered from a back injury and will have to work at looking after his lower back.

He is also in group therapy and has committed to 6 hour sessions every Thursday for the next 2 years so he isn't sure how that will work.

I know he wants to go back into management auto sales stuff so I suggested the following.

Maybe look into agency temp work within the automobile area to begin with... .
It's easier to get into as there is quite a bit of flexibility, it will get him used to being back in the work environment and being around other people all day, it will boost his confidence and then when he is ready to step back back into management level stuff he will have the temp work as evidence that will address his current concerns.

He thought this sounded like a good idea and he also suggested talking about this issue in group as they may have some good h lpful advice too... .

He has said we can go to the temping agencies in our area on Monday and just enquire about what they need to get him on the books etc.

I thought this was quite a good outcome?

[formflier]

so I suggested the following.
 

   

Big picture.  You did good!

I still like "help me understand" a bit better... .but I can imagine you saying what you said with care a compassion.

There are two components... .

1.  The actual words...

2.  The tone and presentation that goes with them.

I find that "help"... .helps me get the tone right.  When I say "why"... .it reminds be of a courtroom.  Same thing for "but"... .it wipes away everything that was just said.

Ok... .look at what I highlighted.  Please step back from "suggesting" to him.

Much better to say... .

"What do you suggest is a good first step?"  (don't solve whole problem... .just take step)

"I can understand how you could be concerned... .what is a succinct answer you feel comfortable giving" (to the what have you been doing question)

You are on the right track... .let him take the lead... .you are the encourager... .

FF

[Jester20]

   

Big picture.  You did good!

I still like "help me understand" a bit better... .but I can imagine you saying what you said with care a compassion.

There are two components... .

1.  The actual words...

2.  The tone and presentation that goes with them.

I find that "help"... .helps me get the tone right.  When I say "why"... .it reminds be of a courtroom.  Same thing for "but"... .it wipes away everything that was just said.

Ok... .look at what I highlighted.  Please step back from "suggesting" to him.

Much better to say... .

"What do you suggest is a good first step?"  (don't solve whole problem... .just take step)

"I can understand how you could be concerned... .what is a succinct answer you feel comfortable giving" (to the what have you been doing question)

You are on the right track... .let him take the lead... .you are the encourager... .

FF

I stopped suggesting... .it just takes days for him to respond to me regarding a conversation.

[formflier]

I stopped suggesting... .it just takes days for him to respond to me regarding a conversation.

Can you give me a he said she said of how your suggested... .what did he say?

My goal is to get a clear view of how you approached him... .his response.

If that is not working, we can try a different tool (approach).

Start thinking ahead.  Until there is a real choice (consequence), he may not make a choice... .even then he may not.

A real choice might be something like this.  "I've been asking for a conversation about your contributions to our family for the past 30 days.  I've not gotten a response from you.  I want our family to work, but I'm not willing to support us both financially.  I need to plan for my financial future.  I need to understand your contribution that future.  When can I expect to have an answer from you?

if a reasonable answer... .perhaps agree

if not... ."After (give a date) I will be making financial plans for my future and will inform you of my decision."

Something like that.  Please don't do that yet... .but start thinking along those lines. 

or

Decide to keep carrying him.

FF

[Jester20]

Can you give me a he said she said of how your suggested... .what did he say?

My goal is to get a clear view of how you approached him... .his response.

If that is not working, we can try a different tool (approach).

Start thinking ahead.  Until there is a real choice (consequence), he may not make a choice... .even then he may not.

A real choice might be something like this.  "I've been asking for a conversation about your contributions to our family for the past 30 days.  I've not gotten a response from you.  I want our family to work, but I'm not willing to support us both financially.  I need to plan for my financial future.  I need to understand your contribution that future.  When can I expect to have an answer from you?

if a reasonable answer... .perhaps agree

if not... ."After (give a date) I will be making financial plans for my future and will inform you of my decision."

Something like that.  Please don't do that yet... .but start thinking along those lines. 

or

Decide to keep carrying him.

FF

I said to him
I cannot support us both financially. I want a family and I am 37, I feel like time is running out for me to do this. I need to know of your intentions or a timeline of what you have been thinking about for a job.

He just says ' I don't know'

I say do you want a family? He says ' yes I do'

[Jester20]

Ff,
Saying the above I think it is important to mention this.
He had group therapy yesterday... .he had to keep a journal of 2 things per week... .
Well I drove to work today and found a black diary in the footwell of the passenger side. It must have fallen from the passenger seat when he was coming back.
I had a quick peek... .I am ashamed to say... .
I feel like the only way I know what is going on in his head sometimes... .
There were entries in there about his opioids addiction to prescribed pain relief and how that wiped 2 years of his life, he wrote " the hardest thing was realising how badly this had affected his marriage"... .
I cried when I read this... .this is the first time he has acknowledged this... .I think I have said before should I ever expect an apology. Well I think this is the closest I may ever get even though it is indirectly.
He put in their he wants to be a good husband, he is looking forward to getting back into work life and he desperately wants to be able to control his reactions... .
He has been making some progress with the latter.
I saw a side to him through these entries that I have never seen before. He obviously finds these things very difficult to discuss.

When I got in from work an hour ago I took the diary in with me and just told him I had found it on the floor so had brought it in for him... .he took it back with no questions and said thank you