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Author Topic: He doesn't want a divorce, but doesn't want me.  (Read 491 times)
loyalwife
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« on: March 19, 2017, 04:52:28 AM »

 I'm hoping there is someone awake out there that can help me with this. For the last few months, this site has kept my sanity. My husband goes back and forth between loving me immensely, to divorce. The cycles have become more often, and it takes little to make him mad. We have gone to therapy, and he's left throwing keys and saying he is done. It seems that in a day or less he's back to being himself and our life together is 'normal.' 
     Today is the worst so far. He wanted me to get rid of my old dog, 11 yrs old. He said that if I loved him, I would do anything to keep him around. He has been mad at me all day because I can't bring myself to put the dog in a rescue at her age. He hates this dog, and the dog loves me. I keep telling him that she will be gone in a year or so, but it isn't quick enough for him. He told me tonight at first that he was filing for divorce. Then he said, no, he didn't want to lose money and would not divorce me, but we could be roommates. No sex, no contact. Last night this was not the case at all, and he was romantic, we had a bubble bath and a nice dinner. Okay. He loves me; he loves me not.
    Everytime he does this I get scared. What if he never comes back? What is the best approach when he is mad like this? Ignore him? i just want him to understand and to wake up. It's like he is trying to hurt me. Is this what the person with bp wants? I just can't get it how they can love you, but not love you. He says he loves me, but it isn't enough.  Please help. Please please someone be awake.
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Larmoyant
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2017, 05:37:19 AM »

Hi loyalwife,

My heart goes out to you 

It’s so painful being on the receiving end of such push/pull behaviour and I remember being so confused about it. I’m glad you posted as members here will be able to help you understand. A good book to read is I Hate You--Don't Leave Me by Kreisman Jerold J. M.D./ Straus Hal. It really helps clear up the confusion as will reading and posting here. There are lots of tools you can learn to help you respond to him. Are you unsure whether or not you want to stay with him or do you want to make it work?
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Larmoyant
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2017, 06:07:15 AM »

It's like he is trying to hurt me. Is this what the person with bp wants? I just can't get it how they can love you, but not love you.

loyalwife, I’m not sure how much you know, but I can try to explain the push/pull behaviour that your husband is engaging in. People with BPD have issues with intimacy, get too close and they pull away from you, get too far and they pull you back in. It’s related to their fears of abandonment and engulfment. They are not necessarily aware that they do this or if they are they have difficulty controlling it. The thing is this behaviour does hurt and so you need to learn ways to protect yourself. Hang on the more you learn the less confusing it gets.I hope I haven't confused you more.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 07:24:36 AM »

I know this is hurtful, but I think a most helpful thing to keep in mind is that this back and forth- that he thinks is about you- is not about you. It's an internal emotional swing that he attributes to you- because of projection. But it isn't about you. It is about him. BPD affects the closest relationships most- so one can think this is about you- because he may not do this with colleagues or acquaintances- but he does it with you. This is the nature of BPD.

This doesn't mean you have to tolerate being treated poorly. However, if you can keep in mind that it isn't about you personally- that can help you not be emotionally reactive- not so hurt when he says these things- because they are more about him than you.

His emotions may sway like choppy waves on an ocean. You can't control that- it isn't possible to control someone else's feelings. Your task is to not emotionally be pulled by the waves. When you do that- you let him take the lead. What does he want from you? Will he come back? He may not even know what he wants from moment to moment.

It will help you to be clear to yourself - what you want, what you will tolerate, your boundaries and values, and stay true to yourself regardless of what his emotions are doing.

For instance- one of your boundaries is the dog. You've probably been down this road before- "If you loved me you would do X, ( something that isn't your value). So you think - OK this is it- I will do something that betrays my own values or feelings just to prove I love him and this will do it, he will be happy" and you do it. You feel hurt, he feels happy ( for the moment) but---- how long did that last? Did that fix the relationship?

It isn't the dog. It is his fears, insecurities, bad feelings- looking for a solution outside of himself. For the moment, this landed with the dog. But it isn't the dog and you know that. It is his own bad feelings. So lets say you get rid of the dog- you will feel terrible, the poor dog bewildered as to what happened. Hubby will feel relief for a little while- but then, I think there will be a next request to do something to prove you love him.  Meanwhile, your own sense of self and values are diminished as you did something you really felt was wrong. Giving away the dog betrays yourself- and each time you do this to "make him happy" you diminish yourself some more. It is a slippery slope.

It is scary to see him angry- but to stand up for yourself you have to face this fear. Safety first: if you feel he may be physically abusive to you or the dog, there needs to be a safe place for you to go. If he is only going to be mad, then it takes some courage to allow this to happen.

If he proposes separate bedrooms, I might consider that. I am not a marriage counselor, but the push pull sometimes requires some space. A separate bedroom gives you a place to go if he is angry at you and a way to get some sleep. There are times when we are more vulnerable to conflict- when we are tired, or stressed and it is hard for two stressed people to stay in the same spot. Sometimes, we need some space to get our thoughts together and calm ourselves. It might make him angry- but it also may help- think of a "time out" for children- a place they can go to calm down. It may not be all the time- when things are good between you, but if they aren't- you have that space.

Although he refused counseling, counseling for yourself may help you to be able to withstand the emotional swings.
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loyalwife
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2017, 07:54:25 AM »

It's hard to believe it's not about me, but I realize that no matter what the outcome is, it's the same. He gets to a point that he doesn't want to have me near him. Like a little kid. The therapist we saw said it was a 'double bind'. There is no answer, and any answer you think you might have is wrong. Getting rid of my beloved dog it will make me sad and he knows it. If I am sad, he will be happy. For a little while. If I take everything I love out of my life, that would make him happy, for a little while.
    He unfriended me on Facebook, something he always does when he is mad. Sometimes he blocks me, and has said that although he's thought about it he's not erased my pictures. A comment he made tonight confuses me too, is that he said he is invested in me, not financially only. What does that mean? The therapist also said that i had a three-year-old on my hands and to be the parent. When things go well, I don't have to be the grownup, but when he falters as he is, I do. I know in my heart that if he truly wanted a divorce, he would. But he won't for some reason. It's not money, it's his 'investment'.
     We have been in this spot before. I can't believe we are again. So, if i am reading this right, the best response to this escalated emotionally level is 'not responding' and separate. One time, i would walk past him like he didn't exist. It was hard to do, but I did, and he didn't like it. When I give him what he wants he doesn't want it. I will try again, to ignore and not let this effect me.
     I'll let the waves pass over me, rather than continue on this rocky ride with him. Somehow, I feel as though he does love me in the way that he can, and that I symbolize something he can't feel. Is that right? The thing he wants most, he doesn't want. if he says these things because it is about himself, does he loathe himself? Does he want to be hurt and not loved? I think that is what he believes.
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 05:57:36 AM »

The thing he wants most, he doesn't want. if he says these things because it is about himself, does he loathe himself? Does he want to be hurt and not loved? I think that is what he believes.


I do think there is an inner pain in people with BPD. Because they have poor skills at dealing with emotions, and poor boundaries- they perceive this pain as coming from something outside of them. To them- there seems to be a logical reason for this as we are humans, we make mistakes- so they can see someone or something that has wronged them. Most of us aren't terrible people- we don't do terrible things, but we still make errors- so the "error" becomes the reason. See- she didn't do X-- so she doesn't love me.

What is X? X can be anything you did in the latest moment and it could be relatively minor. To me, this is why minor things can turn into large grievances. Or maybe you really were irritable and angry- that is human too- but that can become a trigger. This does leave us walking on eggshells to keep the peace. But in the long run, this isn't good for them or for us. It enables them to not take responsibility for their feelings and rely on us to soothe them by walking on eggshells and narrowing our own range of friends and interests.

Stopping this enabling isn't an easy task for us. We have our own fears and issues that make it hard for us to see our partners angry, upset, and blaming us for it. Realizing this is who they are and not taking it personally helps us some. Yet, we have to also be OK with the idea of tough love- letting them own their own frustrations and not manage them for them. It is similar to allowing a toddler to have a tantrum when he asks for a cookie and you say no. It isn't in the toddler's best interest to let him eat too many cookies. Loving this child means he is frustrated. Loving your husband also means not enabling him- and this is likely to lead to frustrations and your fears that he may leave. Yet, everyone has the choice to stay or leave, and we have to accept that this is an uncertainty in every relationship.

People say things when they are emotional. I don't know if it is helpful to try to figure out what someone with BPD means in the heat of emotion. I don't know if they even know what they mean sometimes. I think it is just how they feel in the moment. All of us get frustrated with people sometimes- we may think in the moment something negative, but if we have some self control- we know better than to say it- that we probably don't really mean it, we are just upset. However, I don't think someone with BPD has that control. Many feelings are temporary- but in the moment- feelings are facts to them. If you are a parent of a teenager - you have probably heard them tell you " I hate you" when you have set limits on them or they are frustrated. But we know our kids don't feel that way- but are in a stage of life where they are hormonal and wanting to be adults before they are ready. If your H blurts out something in a moment of anger - he may feel it in the moment- but probably not when he is calm.

It helps to stay centered on you- your boundaries and ways you wish to behave and not base this on his feelings- they change constantly. You do need to be the one who stays steady and not be reactive to his mood in the moment. The push pull is a sort of dance. It takes two. A good place to stay is in the middle- let him do his push pull while you stay steady. If he is in his "push" stage- maybe he just needs space. When he wants to be close, then he is closer. But if you also push for closeness when he needs distance, or walk past him as if he didn't exist, you are participating in the drama too. Middle ground- walk past him, say "hi honey" then do something that occupies yourself is a more middle state than ignoring him or begging him to talk to you.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 10:36:56 AM »

Hey loyalwife, Those w/BPD engage in what I consider paradoxical behavior: they want love, yet behave in unloving fashion; they seek stability yet create chaos; they fear abandonment yet push you away; they act in ways that bring about the exact opposite result from that which they seek; etc.  It's all part of the BPD dynamic, as those above have noted.

I suggest that the place to start is with yourself and your needs.  Try to put yourself first, for a change.  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?

Sometimes one's loyalty can be misplaced in a BPD r/s.

LuckyJim
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 10:57:05 AM »

You've got some good counsel here. I'd like to add that I see BPD behavior as a firestorm inside their BPD brains.  I wouldn't be surprised to find that there's a medical explanation, but, I think of it as the amygdala on fire.  That's a part of the brain where emotions and memories (in stong emotional times) are processed.  Someone with BPD can be triggered by something invisible, and then have an emotional reaction that might even take you by surprise and be confusing / hurtful. Then at another time, they will act totally differently - almost as though the "other self" wasn't there - and didn't do it. 

Personal experience: I noticed that my wife seems to have a setting in which she isn't happy unless I wasn't happy.  I worked on that, and disconnected it for me.  It took away her power to make me happy - or not, but it also numbed me from the good things that happened too.  For me, it is what it is.
 
Remember it's not you personally.  They feel intense, and everything is intense (to them).  This swing creates a push-pull dynamic as you are experiencing.

I don't know if it helps, but, remember you can't change their behavioral wiring, or their actions. You can enforce boundaries to keep you safer.  See the list to the right on "Choosing a Path" --->

You will learn more, and not that it always gets better, but you'll know more, and probably feel better.  We've all been there, and been confused and hurt.
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 09:40:25 PM »



Sometimes a visual can help... .

https://youtu.be/OViXznx9KKo

He is the ball... .you are the paddle.  He desperately wants to be connected to you... .and close to you.

When he gets close... .he freaks and wants to be paddled away... .then he realizes... .oh crap... .look how far away I am... .and rushes back at you... .

wash... .rinse... .repeat.

What to do:

When you realize he is "coming at you"... .don't smack the ball... .pull away a bit.  It will have the same effect as the actual paddle ball game.

So... .he looks at you... says you are great... .gorgeous... .he's never loved anyone more (on a 1 to 10 scale... .he is giving you a "come here" of 6).    Well... .give him a "come here" of 3 in return.  "Oh... .that's sweet... .I love you too."

When he wants a divorce... you are the devil... .blah blah blah.  Same thing... .cut his number in half and give it back.  you might say "I agree... this isn't working.  Let's take a timeout and talk tomorrow night"

Thoughts?

FF
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loyalwife
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2017, 01:07:47 AM »

Thank you for the great advice. So much has happened since this last post, and the escalation has sent me reeling. Not only does he want the dog gone, he asked that my son who has some medical issues be gone too. My son is autistic and struggles, but most of all he may have a growth in his throat. My BPD H said that if he had cancer, it's a deal breaker. He said that if I do this, we will be happy. Then he lost it. We had another nice evening, but the nice parts are fewer. He asked me if I were going through with my tough decisions. After reading here about boundaries and values, I realized that I was going against my own self. I told him I understood about the dog, but if my son needed an operation. Well, he lost it, started screaming, postured to hit me and said "Get Out, Get Out". Needless to say, I called 911. I was so frightened. He said he had snapped and didn't know if he would ever be okay. I didn't talk to him, until the morning and he said "I won't get a divorce, you can have the house, the cars and we can talk about this in about 8 months. Then he said, I'm afraid of your son and what he will do to me, I'm afraid for my life". This scared me as he has threatened to hurt my son, say it was a rage and he'd snapped and also that he would get away with it. I have learned that domestic violence is not necessarily part of domestic violence. I got a protective order, and served him. Knowing how he is, he will never forgive me. The reason I did this, was that my values, my sons safety was in jeopardy. He was looking for a way to get 'rid' of my son, what better way that to have him jailed.
     I am so tired of the drama and love you hate you. A counselor said that mental illness doesn't spell domestic violence. I stood up and now he must take it for what it is. I'd never deliberately hurt him, but he has said that he would deliberately hurt me. I hope that he gets help, but that isn't guaranteed. When you leave, how does the push/ pull work?
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2017, 06:49:01 AM »

I'd never deliberately hurt him, but he has said that he would deliberately hurt me. I hope that he gets help, but that isn't guaranteed. When you leave, how does the push/ pull work?

It works pretty much the same.  Perhaps more intense. 

There is a big picture thing for you to think about.  If you have a PO on him... .then you should consider being No Contact... .or perhaps only contact him with a therapist present.

How long ago did you get the PO? 

Long term... .it's totally up to you to decide you relationship.  In the short term (let's say a week or so), I would hop you could maintain NC... .focus on you and your child.  And your dog!

Self care if critical.  YOU need to get to a better place to make wise decisions.

Do you still have a therapist?

FF

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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2017, 09:43:11 AM »

Hello again loyal wife, Good for you for getting a protective order, which shows good boundaries.  Abuse is unacceptable.  Whether he gets help is up to him, not you.  You are not responsible for the well being of another adult.  You can't cure him, needless to say.  Suggest you continue with NC and return the focus to you and your needs.  It sounds as if, like me, you don't miss the drama.  It's a lot more peaceful, isn't it?

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2017, 02:37:17 PM »

I can't answer you question, but, I am so sad this has happened.  I would be really hurt if that happened to me.  I am so sad for you.  The dog, son, and and a husband as a threat to both. 
Do follow your gut and your best legal advice for where you live.  Be safe!
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