Spent the night on the couch

[isilme]

Not sure how to talk about this, it's a little TMI, but for about 6 months H has been having male-type physical issues with intimacy.  This is a big factor in his recent moods.  To date, I don't know of anything he's done about it, I know he will not go to an MD about it unless I nag for months and finally set up an appointment, and it may or may not garner any benefit.  It's a confusing place I guess for both of us, because he tells me the desire is there, just not always any physical ability to act on it... .and I don't know how to act now.  Like, I am afraid to initiate anything because he says even when things "work" he hurts later, and sometimes complains so much about this pain in his body and that pain in his body I feel like I need to just leave him alone.  Other times, he acts like he wants to come on to me, but then will state, "oh it's lunch, no time," "Oh, it's too early in the evening, wait till we've showered and come to bed."  So when I am finally home, feeling good from being off work, having some energy to actually act on my desires and be spontaneous, I'm most often told no.

Problem with waiting till midnight/1AM bedtime? - I'm tired.  I work 40+ hours, and do the majority of the chores, and assist him in what he needs/asks for.  I have no idea how women who work and have kids deal.  I really don't.  Because I am in a constant state of mild to severe exhaustion between my life-long sleep maintenance insomnia and H's idiosyncracies about sleep (we are doing much better, but there are always going to be nights where he dysregulates).

By the time I've showered and come to bed, odds are I am too sleepy to stay awake for anything, at least not for very long if nothing starts up.  And then there is how he acts when he comes to bed - he grabs his iPad, and will immediately start in on watching videos on youtube.  I've tried to initiate things before a video is over, sometimes he gets upset.  If I wait for the video to end, I may doze off.  I am not supposed to get too close to him if he's wearing his glasses - triggers claustrophobia.  I can't breathe on him.  There are all these rules that have accumulated over the years that set me up for failure in this because if I DON'T initiate and/or end up falling asleep and he had some interest in sex that night, I am a tease who likes to rile him up and leave him hanging. 

This was the case last night.  Monday night, I made it clear what I had on my mind, and didn't bother with a nightgown, tried to be flirty.  He seemed interested, tried to start something, but then made a comment I interpreted to mean his body was not cooperating and he didn't' want to continue, something like, "this isn't working".  So I did not push it.  I thought either he was in pain, or just not having any sort of physical response and I did not want to make him more frustrated so I said, "ok" and tried to just snuggle and yes, fell alseep.  I learned that he interpreted that as me simply falling asleep on him and being lazy.

Last night, even though we both showered early, he still did not come to bed till about midnight.  I'd been in there about 20 minutes alone, trying to stay awake.  He immediately grabbed the iPad, and started in on a few videos.  I struggled to stay awake for a break in the youtube content, and we were talking and I was trying to be affectionate, but I guess it was not fast enough, because he started complaining about being old, that we were both too old to do more than work and sleep (he complains a lot, and yes, complains a lot of the time right before sex - such an incentive).  He then proceeded to tell me he'd been waiting for me to make a move and I said, no, you've been watching videos and have done nothing to let me know you even feel like doing anything.  It escalated to how I am "just making things up" because he's right, I'm wrong, and I have no "case" and no argument.  He stormed out fo the room to the couch to "sleep".  I came in, he was watching more videos, and told him to go back to bed.  He can't sleep on the couch,  His back is in the process of being realigned by a chiropractor and sleeping on our squishy couch is not a good ting for him.  So he yelled at me some more, went to the bedroom and told me to stay on the couch.  I was exhausted, this like so many rage fits appeared quickly and yes, unexpectedly, and so I tried to just go to sleep.  I knew I'd wake up in the night a few times, and about 4AM moved to the bed.

Now I am getting silent treatment.  I don't feel flirting with my husband, hoping he will take me up then and there on my offer of intimate contact is "teasing".  I don't want to have to contort myself around an ipad to see if he will even let me touch him to "try to initate sex".  He makes it mechanical half the time, and often complains about how hard women can be to please.  I'm like, "wow, those statements really help me enjoy time with you."

I'm tired of playing guessing games.  I'm tired of trying to interpret if he's waiting for sex and it's my time to get that attention or not.  I'm tired of trying to decipher if he's in pain or not, if he's willing to see how much things will work or not.  And I did not really sleep well at all, so I am really just tired and want to cry so I am typing this at work to get it off my chest.

 

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[JoeBPD81]

Wow, that's tough!

I'm sorry this is so frustrating. I hope to write something longer later, but no wonder you feel like crying.  This is so unfair sometimes.

I went through something similar, and  I don't know if it's better not to have intimacy at all.

Hang in there.

[Wrongturn1]

isilme:  Bummer, that sounds like a frustrating situation to deal with.  It sounds to me like you are making all the efforts and concessions that a reasonable spouse could make, so I really wouldn't tell you to do anything differently.

Also, I'd emphasize that none of this is your fault because it's his BPD that's the problem not you.  It's amazing to me how so many of the things your husband does/says are nearly identical to my uBPDw's actions and words:  The whole "not now - but later" concept, but "later" never materializes.  Or tirades of complaining before sex setting the wrong mood.  Or a long list of rules - about what you aren't allowed to do or touch.  It's all extremely frustrating.  So much so for me that I have stopped initiating with my uBPDw, except for on the 5 days or so per month when I know her hormones will be on my side.  Otherwise, I risk triggering a damaging dysregulation when she turns me down.

Also, speaking as a male, I have no idea what he could be referring to regarding his "pain", as long as he does not have an STD or other serious medical problem.  This is not anything I have ever experienced or heard of anyone else experiencing.  Considering how common it is for people with BPD to intentionally withhold sex from their significant others, his "pain" excuse might be an intentional or subconscious method of withholding to deprive you.  I have heard of both male and female BPDs that withhold, so this would not be uncommon.

Hang in there, isilme!

[isilme]

The chiro treatments are working to ally some nerve damage/pressure he seems to have developed in the pelvic region.  It has created numbness in his feet, a lack of control in his legs, and shooting pains in his legs, feet, and groin.  Due to the ED issues, actual intercourse (which I do not insist on) can feel like crushing to him, and make him tender for days later at times in conjunction with the nerve damage, and the tenderness seems to make the pelvic shooting nerve pain center on the tender area.  I don't know if he has shared this with his Chiro Dr. or not, getting him to even go there after saying he felt he could not walk was a challenge.  I next need to get him to an ENT for the asthma and maybe a urologist for the other issues. 

A good part of the time it's not such a minefield - if that makes sense.  But when his emotions get out of whack are he gets super unpredictable, there is just no winning.  If we do, he complains for a few days about how it made him too tired if it was early, and any time how his body isn't responding well and how it now hurts, and then he goes into the rants about how he knows I will leave him or cheat on him, and how he may as well be dead because nothing works anymore, how he's no longer a man.  I get that this issue is particularly difficult for men.  And for a short while, it looked like the treatment for his legs and spine was also going to help this issue.  But he's missed a few appointments and gotten off track on them, and so I can't tell if it was going to improve or not.  

I really can't read his wants at times and he refuses to accept that he can be baffling, asking for two completely different things at the same time.  Have fun spontaneous sex with me only at approved times in approved ways and be easy to please and don't be upset if I do nothing but complain before during (sometimes) and after.  And usually we "make up" from a fight when we see each other at lunch, which is in an hour and I am still feeling all out of sorts.  I disassociate from my feelings when they are strong, and there is a delay.  I have been numb until this morning, when I am now starting to feel upset over this.  And I don't want a fight at lunch.  He claims my changing clothes in front of him at lunch o after work is teasing him.  It's not.  I am just putting on "house clothes" at lunch so I don't get food on my work outfit, or workout clothes so I can do chores or yard work, or simply be comfortable.  He does the same thing.  And I feel that in a healthy relationship, if I DO want to prance around a little, even if we can't engage in sex at that very moment, it's meant to be fun, flirty, and not meant to frustrate.  

He makes it all so mechanical and planned, and the complaining lately takes all enjoyment out of things.  It's not just this that he complains about - we have friends over for a game night, later he complains about how he can't play to win because one other person makes a face if she loses.  I tell him not to care, if she was that mad she'd not ask to come back (she asks each weekend they are free).  He complains about having to go to work, how his job means nothing, how he's going to get fired, how he knows he has no friends.  I keep hoping once warmer weather comes and I can get him outside he will improve, but he often begrudges any activity outside that is not about him.  I need to mow the lawn - he can't, it triggers his asthma.  I like doing it - I accomplish something and I get exercise.  win win.  I want to go do group aerobic exercise at a local gym once or twice a week - he hates it, and does everything he can to dissuade me from going.  He wants me to go for walks with him, fine, but those can take 2 hours while I can get a better workout and more steps in 1 hour at the aerobics.  I think he thinks I am oogling the guys on the workout machines or something.  

Just tired, makes me emotional, not looking forward to awkward lunch.  

[Wrongturn1]

Due to the ED issues, actual intercourse (which I do not insist on) can feel like crushing to him, and make him tender for days later at times in conjunction with the nerve damage, and the tenderness seems to make the pelvic shooting nerve pain center on the tender area. 

Okay, well that does sound like the pain problem may have more of a physical basis than emotional.  Hope he can get that resolved soon. Your statement that "he goes into the rants about how he knows I will leave him or cheat on him" is pretty much exactly the line I get from my uBPDw while dysregulating if I make the grave mistake of initiating at a time when she is not in the mood... .so I try to avoid making that mistake.

Funny you mention him worrying about you oogling members of the opposite sex while at the gym.  My uBPDw has the same anxiety to the point where I would not ever bother to even mention the idea of me joining a gym.  So I do Insanity workouts in the basement at home alone in the mornings, which is almost as good... .actually probably better from a cardio standpoint, but I don't get to do much with weights.

[isilme]

When H was more active he'd often go out to jog or skate, and I could exercise at home (and clean or whatever I wanted or needed to do).  Our house is very small, only 900sq ft, and so there is no space for me to work out inside if he is home in front of the TV.  He's become more or less house-bound/agoraphobic-ish since the fall before last when his leg issues became noticeable as a lasting problem as more than a simple strain or bout of cold-weather arthritis.  So if I want an actual workout, I need to go to the student rec center at the college where we work.  It's just a few blocks away, I have a few female friends interested in going.  I am in the back corner far away from any men folk, even if I were the type of person to oogle at anyone.  I'm not.  I'm very much wired to be with one person.  I felt uncomfortable having a crush on two boys at the same time in high school, I'm not going to cheat. 

I know his physical feelings are amplifying the issues BPD brings to the table.  And vice-versa.  It's a horrible feedback loop.  Lunch was quiet, mostly silent treatment.  Will see if he wants a walk after work today since it's pretty nice and warm or if he blows me off. 

I feel a lot his physical ailments are far worse simply because of his mindset.  If you are dead set you are one foot in the grave at 39 never going to get better and life has already passed you by, I don't think any recovery is really going to be easy.  And I feel he likes, well, likes is not the right word, but his BPD gets some sort of satisfaction from being in pain, or being ill, like it gives him a ready excuse to be angry, to complain.  Settled victimhood.  Ugh. 

[Fie]

Hello dear Isilme 


I had a BPDex some years ago who also made huge issues around sex and intimacy.

One way or the other, everything, including sex, was always about control.

He also had physical sexual issues to the point we went to an urologist who told him nothing was wrong physically. I strongly suspect in his upbringing he was taught that sex somehow is 'bad' and should make you feel guilty, and that this was part of the problem.

He stormed out fo the room to the couch to "sleep".  I came in, he was watching more videos, and told him to go back to bed.  He can't sleep on the couch,  His back is in the process of being realigned by a chiropractor and sleeping on our squishy couch is not a good ting for him.

The way I see it you are making the problems of your husband your problems. If he wants to sleep on a couch and end up with a backache because of it, that should be his problem, not yours (even if he acts out afterwards). I don't think you stepping in is helping him nor you.

What do you think ?

[Hmcbart]

Isilme,

You may or may not have seen some of my posts in reference to sexual issues with my wife.  I can definitely understand what your going through and I feel your pain very acutely.  It sounds like a lot of the same things I've dealt with and am dealing with.  Just last week in our MC, the therapist brought up control and using sex as a weapon.  Even though my wife tried to deny that it was done intentionally, our therapist told her point blank, "it may or may not have been done consciously in the beginning but you have known about it for years and still choose to withhold sex from your husband."  I was happy it was brought up that way.  Will it change anything, who knows.  I'm trying my best to keep an open mind which is difficult even on the good days.  We've still only had sex once this year and she still comes up with every reason under the sun to say no. 

I've worked hard to remove as many barriers as I can but she builds them faster than I can tear them down.  In the beginning it was simply "I'm not in the mood". As time went on it went from that to "it's because of what you said last month that was mean". Then it went to flat out belittling and criticizing me for asking.  One even I got told "am I putting off some kind of vibe that makes you think I want to have sex?"  I was crushed.  Now it's just the ailments, those are more difficult to over come because I can't prove or disprove she really feels sick or whatever. 

I think Fie hit on something that may be worth exploring.  You rushing in to save or help him may be giving him what he needs.  The attention and focus solely on him. BPD folks from what I've learned only really think about themselves.  Illness is a good way to remove focus off a real problem and back to you doing more for them.  I know I see that all the time in my wife.  I'm sure she would come up with more ailments to get me to stop asking for things I need and focus back on her needs.  She just knows I have a pretty good background in the medical field and can see through a lot of her ailments. 

Not saying your husband is making anything up but by becoming the savior everytime you might be helping to keep things the way he wants with you focused on his needs and ignoring your own.  Our MC, last week also said I need to stop being a Martyr and accepting all the blame and responsibility.  Maybe you're also the Martyr. 

I hope your day got better or gets better depending on your time zone.  just remember to keep breathing and smile even when it's difficult. 

[isilme]

I think I'd simply not sleep at all had I not tried to get him back to bed (done that a few times, and after spending $60-90 a week since December to work on his back, I'm not going to let him unravel it in anger).  It's not about a battle of will for me.  I don't care about "winning" a fight, but letting him claim victimhood over a night on the couch today versus me staying there, getting a little sleep and then not talking at all about it to him actually saves me some emotional pain today.  The less ammunition I hand him the sooner we can nip this in the bud, usually.  

As it was, I tried which made me feel better that at least I did that, and sometimes that will placate him and we don't end up like last night.  I'm just tired of the guessing games, not being able to just be free and easy with him when he gets like this.  I could tell something was wrong Sunday, he was weird, and I had an unusual invitation to join a friend in another town for a day.  She lives alone, her husband is deployed, and we don't get to do much together because our work schedules do not sync.  I think me going, even after he said he'd be fine, triggered some abandonment, and he now needs to invent whatever he can to yell at me about it. He's never been fond of me having things to do away from him for the most part.  I am his "wubby", his blanky, and while I do my best to not let that stop me, I also try to mitigate the abandonment he seems to feel with it.  

[Grey Kitty]

Isilme, back up and look at the big picture regarding your husband and sex:

His body isn't working right. He's got a whole tarball of insecurity and feelings coming from that. (This is difficult for any guy!)

He has BPD. He cannot face that some of this is stuff he cannot control. He also cannot face that his overreactions cause more of the problem.

What is his coping mechanism? He blames you. Not because you are the problem, but because he cannot face feeling like he's the problem, and it is how he copes with it.

This isn't about whether you change clothes in front of him, whether you flirt with him,  or whether you fall asleep the one time he is interested in sex.

  And all this is tough on you... .not even counting that it has pretty nearly destroyed your sex life too.

So what can you do? I'd suggest you go back to basic tools--use boundaries to protect yourself from his dysregulations about it. Validate what you can.

And most importantly, when he's being so difficult, make sure you take good care of yourself. Maybe go to the rec center and work out for yourself. Do something with friends, whether he comes along or not.

[JoeBPD81]

Is there a place for all abbreviations used on this forum? I used ED as Eating Disorder, and I'm pretty sure here it means Erectile Dysfunction, right?

I had 2 sex partners during my life, just that. First I was married (for 16 years) with my first girlfriend ever, and she taught me sex was about pleasing "the poor woman who is so hard to please". I bought it, as I had no other experience. It was a test every time. I would be praised for my performance, or humiliated and rejected (nothing nasty, but with time this became overwhelming). Nothing about intimacy and love, I was a tool. And I felt a bad husband when I didn't want sex. She complained that I didn't took the initiative when in the past, every time that I did, I met with a NO, so I learned this was only when she wanted, asking was going to give me only rejection.This was a reflection of all our marriage dynamics. I thought I could give for ever, but it took me 16 years to become empty.

After a divorce, I met a woman with BPD. We fell in love, and for the first time sex was about being as close to her as possible, it was about her and me, not about pleasure and orgasms. I learned I had a lot to heal.

Anyway, in the 1st marriage, it came a point were I talked to her and ask her to stop having sex until I could heal, I told her how I felt, and she understood, she was really concerned and sorry. When she agreed to stop, it was a huge relief, it almost saved our marriage. If other issues hadn't come into place, I feel we could have had a new start, start from scratch, you know? In the sex part, at least.

That experience has served me with my GF. We had a lot of sex the first weeks, when we had the opportunity, which was not often, as she had two kids. And she felt great afterwards, it took her mind out of her many problems. Then it became less and less frequent. And then, it stopped. In the last 8 months, we tried one day, and were cut by kid's voices, and we took it the next day. And that's it for 8 months.

She has anorexia, and she hates her body. She hated it more when she was healthy, or so she says. Now she claims she likes her bones. But she can't think about sharing that body. Anything related to sex freaks her out. She says she is attracted to me and it is difficult to restrain herself, but it scares her to death how she will feel if something happens, afterwards. She's felt dirty and unworthy, and wants to kill herself. Such a compliment for me!

She was molested as a child, and raped later, I think more than once. She was also bullied at school, and made fun of about her body, and then she had an abusive husband for 10 years. So the traumas are there, it's real. I wish we never had sex when she was going to feel bad afterwards, but I couldn't know. My desire doesn't go ever my caring for her, but I'm afraid she didn't say no freely, she didn't trust I would be OK with that.

So, this is the woman that made me feel loved for the 1st time, and this is the situation now. The alarm about she killing herself put my worries about sex on a very low priority list.

She freaked out if I kissed her longer than a second. She stopped talking to me for 2 days, after seeing me with no shirt on. We used to live apart, and then spend the weekends together, then she slept in my bed. But since we live together, she sleeps in a mattress in the living-room.

I'm a massage therapist, so touching is a part of me. But I'm not one of those people who touches other people a lot, outside my work. I wasn't like that with my ex-wife. But I couldn't keep my hands off her from day one (and she off me, in the beginning). Is not something sexual, I'm not thinking about that leading anywhere. But it was making her uncomfortable.

So I had to start from scratch again. I had to take a step back and stop assuming sex is a part of what we are. She is really struggling to find a will to live.

My work in progress: I try to have non sexual contact when things are relaxed. I brush her hair, I massage a bit her shoulders, and head, feet... .away from the bed. And I don't mix it with kisses or anything. It brings me closer to her, and I feel much better. And she seems to be more confident and more comfortable around me. There's been some flirting on her part after a couple of weeks like that, some kissing too, and more hugs. We took things very fast at the beginning, and I told her I'm OK with taking things slow now.

I want her, bad... .But I don't get mad, or obsess about it. I am hopeful. The goal is not to have sex, the goal is to be comfortable around each other.

How any of this applies to your case? I think assuming that sex between you must be right, won't make it right. It's going badly, so I guess you both should stop what is not working. Talk about how you both feel about it, and maybe take a step back, and star over.

Stop obsessing about "this shouldn't be so difficult". It is. Sex is complicated, sometimes two people are in harmony, and they don't have to think about it, and it goes smoothly. Some people can have it without a lot of feeling involved, good for them. But once feelings are involved, it becomes something complicated. Then it reaches a circle, the worse it gets the more feelings and bad thoughts are involved (mainly about yourself), and those make it worse, and then more feelings, guilt, and so on. I believe you have to step outside the circle. You have to convince him that you are by his side and you wont leave him if he steps out of the circle with you. This doesn't mean it's over for him, it just means you both made it a stressful topic, and you need to go back to the basics to untangle it. You love each other and you don't want to do anything hurtful to each other. That is what's important, more important than having sex.

The steps might be: nothing sexual for a while. It makes a difference to not have sex as a pact, as opposed to not have sex because you are expecting it and it doesn't happen. Then find out what both of you are comfortable with, and start from there.

This is just an opinion, I'm sorry if I miss the target for a mile.

[isilme]

Yes, that is the meaning I am using for ED.  I know sex is complicated.  I'm not new to this relationship, or upset about a fight that's not happened before (this happens over an over, every few months when he slides into BPD-land), or having to learn how to behave with a new person.

H and I have been together 20 years, so for the most part, we've worked out how things on good days work, and those days are fine.  A big problem is that he can switch from fine to moody on a dime.  So we can have a week of playful, fun, interaction, only yo have it suddenly stop, and now "every" time we've had sex I'm lazy, I am too hard to please, I take too long, I expect too much, etc.  This is a cycle.  I just hate it.  H wants it all to be my fault that he is confusing, inconsistent, and the one who is actually hard to please.  He complains about boring routine, then insists on boring routine.  And somehow that is my fault.

When he is dysregulating, he becomes combative about everything, and late at night and when I am tired is not a good time for me - can't leave house, insomnia won't let me sleep especially if we fought, and it's not like our house has several places for me to go, or something to immerse myself in.

I DON'T force it if he's feeling poorly.  But he turns that on me into MY being disinterested.  I don't change in front of him to start things, and am simply changing clothes in our bedroom, but he accuses me of doing it to "tease" him.  And when he makes comments about how he wants to do things at me one minute then claims how much he hurts the next, I am confused.  When he complains as I try to initiate, but gets mad if I stop, I am confused.  Imagine starting being intimate... .and the person won't stop talking about things that upset them at work.  Or how they are dying.  Or how they "know" you hate them and will cheat on them.  Or already have cheated and won't believe otherwise (H is the only lover I have ever had.  Ever.  I've never even kissed another person.)  During my last physical I was asked to disclose how many partners I've had, and the MD usually gives me a disbelieving look when I say 1, I relayed this to H, and he was like, well, you don't have to lie to your MD.  That really hurts. 

I have stated that I understand ED is painful for men.  And without BPD in the mix, this would already be emotionally difficult.  But I have BPD added to the issues, meaning his reactions are even more unpredictable and more volitile and he is less capable of controlling them than a "non". 

I DO go out and do my own thing when I can, but the stars have to align for it to happen - I myself have been fighting not getting bronchitis from a long-lingering sinus infection and so doing Zumba I very much want to do, but can't breathe well enough to do it, and when I've tried or done too much in a day I have a relapse - too soon .  H's appointments are after work, and can take 1.5 hours, no time to work out those nights as by the time we get home the group exercise is over, and we both need to eat and just go to bed.  He can't always control his legs well enough to drive when they are done with all they do - sometimes he's good and more energetic, others he's like his body just wants to lie down.  They are tinkering with his nerves - so no, him driving himself is not a viable option.  We have no reliable public transportation, very small town.  We "may" have set it up where a friend who also is getting treatment can take him time to time, so that would help, as his wife is one of my workout buddies, so maybe we can let the men go off on their own at least one time a week, and we can go workout. 

We ended up taking a walk last night, but it triggered the weakness in his legs and we had to turn in sooner than we wanted.  We managed 3 miles.  He collapsed on the couch, took his shower, and told me he felt like he was running a weird fever.  His body has atrophied from lack of activity due to this problem, leaving his legs very prone to weakness, maybe another reason for the ED.  I avoided any comments about the previous night, as did he, and we just went to bed, early for us for once.  He's probably still upset I did not make a move on him, but he has not said anything so far.  He knocked over a pile of his own stuff this morning, and got mad that "this place is a mess" but of course that will prolly end up my fault even though it's things he left out, uses, and is responsible for.  My things are put away.  So I will see if a cleaning storm starts up tonight.  One day at a time. 

[Hmcbart]

Islime

It's sounds like you're very frustrated with everything that's happening.  It's not like it's one thing here and there but more like 4-5 things one after the other.  Almost like being in a hurricane.  As soon as it lets up and you can see the beautiful blue sky for a moment, it comes back but from a different direction and knocks you over. 

I wish I could tell you what worked for me because that would mean I survived the hurricane.   I am still in the front edge of the storm and not sure what to expect after I see the brief glimpse of the blue sky.  It's scary as hell and even more frustrating. Just trying to keep from becoming resentful, which is easy for me these days, is almost as tough as dealing with the actual issues. 

I've been with my wife for 20 years also abd I remember very well how good things were for the first few years.  I also understand how hurt you can get from constant rejection.  Most days I feel like I'm this hideous monster that she can not see as someone who is good for anything other than being a provider for her and our two children.  It hits your self esteem really hard and can be difficult to recover from. 

On the good days I try to enjoy being with her even though I try to not bring up sex or even hope that it will happen.  Hoping only leads me to more hurt and resentment.  That in turn causes me to close myself off emotionally.  That in turn causes her to get upset... .you can see where I'm going with this. 

I hope you can find a way to get through your storm.  I am trying to get through mine but it's always a struggle.  Not just with my wife but most days with my own feelings and emotions. 

[isilme]

Hcmbart,

And today he is back in a more sunny mood.  So I'll take it while it lasts.  Going to bed at a good time last night seemed to work - he was able to get up, dressed and out the door and we got to work ON TIME!  (We work on the same campus, different departments, different buildings).  I'm usually dressed, have packed his breakfast and mine, and am waiting for about 15 minutes to get there late.  So that's a yay. 

H also surprised me last night a little before we went on our walk, and he opened up to a close set of friends.  The W just got a diagnosis of an actual physical problem that made sex literally impossible for them (she had a growth that her MD ignored for 3 years, telling her it was in her mind.  I insisted she get a 2nd opinion and she finally did, they scanned her and are setting up surgery next week.).  After them being open and stating that they had a problem, H actually mentioned his physical issues were a problem for us.  I have not spoken of it to anyone, and actually feel guilty for even talking here.  So him mentioning it was I guess a good thing - his mood has improved, and maybe he's seeing that everyone can have problems.  I don't know.  It's positive for right now, and I'll take it to hold on to when things turn south again. 

[Hmcbart]

Isilme,

That's awesome! It's always nice to see the sun come out.  Helps to show us what we are fighting for.  Take every little win and feel good about it.  My therapist tells me the same thing.  Find something good and positive no matter how small and hold on to it for dear life.  Everything positive only helps us to catch our breath.  I'm very happy for you. 

[Grey Kitty]

isilme, it sounds like you are OK when your H is "good" aka not dysregulating, criticizing, blame-shifting, etc.

And during "good times" your sex life is fine (although limited by your H's health issues)

I'd suggest that you try harder to protect yourself instead of accomodating him during "bad times". I'd suggest you enforce more boundaries in a few situations:

Imagine starting being intimate... .and the person won't stop talking about things that upset them at work.  Or how they are dying.  Or how they "know" you hate them and will cheat on them.  Or already have cheated and won't believe otherwise

Perhaps trying to "push past" this crap is a bad idea? Write it off as ":)ysregulated; I won't put myself through trying to have sex with this going on... ."  The two of you can try again later when he's in a different mood.

... .only yo have it suddenly stop, and now "every" time we've had sex I'm lazy, I am too hard to please, I take too long, I expect too much, etc.

That's verbal abuse (around the subject of sex). Remove yourself from it, and again, take sex off the table at that time.

He complains about boring routine, then insists on boring routine.  And somehow that is my fault.

Again, as soon as it becomes "your fault" time to remove yourself from the blame and stop trying to be intimate with him.

I DON'T force it if he's feeling poorly.  But he turns that on me into MY being disinterested.

Once again, once he blames you for the sex problems, time to enforce a boundary.

When he complains as I try to initiate, but gets mad if I stop, I am confused.

The problem is that he's complaining and blaming you... .not what he's complaining about! Boundaries again... .

And when he makes comments about how he wants to do things at me one minute then claims how much he hurts the next, I am confused.

Maybe any time you get a confused mixed message about sex, time to again enforce that boundary. Or at least plan on no sex in the near future, if you stay and talk about it with him, should it be more vulnerable than abusive on his part.

I don't change in front of him to start things, and am simply changing clothes in our bedroom, but he accuses me of doing it to "tease" him.

That one's tougher. It would be reasonable for him to ask you not to undress in front of him. Of course being inconsistent and contradictory and then blaming you for it isn't OK. I guess I'd still enforce a boundary when it becomes verbal abuse.
   

One other boundary to think about--Protecting your own sleep. The pattern of forcing conflcits to happen when you are tired and need to sleep is a common one. It is doubly damaging:

First, you are tired, so you are "off your game" and more likely to JADE, less capable of validating, so it is more likely to go badly.

Second, the lack of sleep long-term harms you.

Try to make emergency sleep plans so you can get away and rest. Perhaps you can flee to the couch. If not, do you have a friend with a couch you can pre-arrange to show up late on short notice and crash on their couch? If you prove that you won't let him keep you up with a circular argument, he will eventually learn not to push you, but you will probably have to make it through the extinction burst first.

[Grey Kitty]

Isilme's H seems to be confused and hurt about sex and is flailing out in a way that hurts himself as much as he hurts her... .and only when he's dysregulated. Thus my suggestions mainly aimed toward dealing with the dysregulation side of things.

Hmcbart, you have a very different situation... .it sounds to me like your wife uses sex as a weapon against you, and has a long pattern of doing so. She may be hurt and confused herself, but that is buried a lot deeper, likely impossible to find.

I'm thinking your best bet is radical acceptance that she will continue in a way consistent with her prior actions--that she's not interested/willing to have much if any sex with you, and seems to prefer what she gets by hurting you with rejection to what she gets when the two of you have sex.

And yes, one action she takes to hurt you is claiming she wants sex, but that it is your fault that it isn't happening. I wouldn't take that to contradict the assessment above!

Not sure I have any good suggestions for you other than pretty much stop trying to initiate sex with her, so she doesn't get the "win" of rejecting you.

[isilme]

Ugh.  So after a few weeks of other issues, this strikes again.  Last night HE spent the night on the couch, I did not chase him down and insist he stay in bed and I take the couch.  Still did not really sleep. 

There had been some flirting earlier, but we'd gotten back from an appointment, I was tired and we both needed to eat, so we sat down to eat and watch TV till bed.  He spent about an hour after coming to bed talking about various things, then it fell into discussing a falling out with a friend (I think his BPD contributed to the final discussion, but the 'friend' was a mooch, and rarely reciprocated in kind to things H has done for him.  H will bend over backwards for the world, just not usually me, and he'd been a good friend to this guy, but the guy was not a good friend back.  H, being unable to accept he can like a person without liking everything about him, is confused about the whole thing, and assumes "everyone" blames him for the two of them not being friends anymore )

Anyway, after this goes on for about an hour, he shifts suddenly from this moody discussion to basically hinting he wants to be intimate.  I rolled over to turn out my light and moved towards him, but in that process apparently I made a sound he interpreted as a disgruntled sound (I think I DID grunt, from shifting over and rolling to turn out my light, not from any emotional unhappiness.  But he seized upon that and immediately turned me away.  This again confused me, I asked about it, tried to explain I was not grunting at him, he had none of it, said some insulting things, implied he would find other people to sleep with (common threat), told me what my own thoughts supposedly are regarding sex, his ED, insists he's physically 20 years older than he is and going to die by age 60, and then went to the couch. 

Every single sigh or sound I make he believes is about him.  It can't possible that I myself also have sudden aches and pains, leg cramps and other discomforts.  Just sharing on here.  Back to work

[JoeBPD81]

That's too bad. It happened to me with a face "you made a face that meant... .".

So, are we supposed to keep a poker face and be silent like a ninja?  Well, they'd find offense there too. And once they interpret this or that, what can we do instead of saying "no, this grunt was not about you".  And if they find a grunt offensive, why can't they just grunt offensively back, why do they need to unleash hell on us?

We have to go through labyrinths to understand them, and get maybe less abuse. When it is pretty simple not to hurt us, and they seem to not bother to try.

I was going to say it was the explaining when things went worse, when you try to use logic or show them what they felt /thought was not accurate, they feel very threatened, they feel attacked and they need to fight back (like throwing punches with their eyes closed). I was gonna say that, but the truth is that you did nothing wrong, even if the results were bad.

Hope you feel ok, and you get some blessings coming your way.

[isilme]

Thanks - we've been through times when this would happen pretty often, and then things would be fine.  I know his physical issues from not being able to walk well, to pain, to the ED of course are all taking a toll.  It's not an easy thing to talk to someone about in a good emotional standing, so BPD is just horrible.  He likes to assume he "knows" my feelings, and I did get upset and stated back to him that all he was claiming that I felt was how HE feels and not me.  I know it's invalidating, but seriously, it was like 12:30 at night, I've been pretty sleep deprived lately simply from feeling pretty ill myself, and of course I can't be Miss Perfect Validation all the darn time.

Sigh.  It's just so frustrating how quickly things can go from ok, to moody, to let's have sex, to I hate you, you suck.  Half the time it happens so fast I'm like, wait, we were literally fine less than 5 minutes ago, what the hell just happened?  I made a face/sound?  And you assume it' 1) about you, 2) I made it to hurt your feelings and express anger I don't even feel?

[Grey Kitty]

what the hell just happened?  I made a face/sound?  And you assume it' 1) about you, 2) I made it to hurt your feelings and express anger I don't even feel?

I think you know that asking him "what just happened" isn't going to get you any kind of answer that will work or make sense for you. And yes, he does seem to believe that it is about him, and you were looking for a way like that to attack or reject him.

My guess on what happened is that he's trying to be "good" trying to be happy, trying to make this relationship work the best he can... .despite having really messed up crap in his head, and trying to "hold it together"... .

... .and all of a sudden, inside his head, he loses it... .

... .and then he hears your grunt, and makes your grunt all about the story in his head, and blows up at you.

... .and you are left wondering WTH?