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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Maybe we really are abusive in their minds?  (Read 519 times)
FallenOne
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« on: March 24, 2017, 04:38:09 PM »

I was thinking about projection today and being accused of things that we know we never did...

I wanted to point out what I thought was important, because we found it very confusing when our ex's accused us of being abusive, or controlling, or whatever they accused us of.

I've seen this being labeled as projection, where they project their own feelings about themselves onto us, but look at it this way for a moment...

What if in their minds, when they were losing their temper, raging, yelling, having an outburst, that it was just normal and acceptable behavior to them and that our reaction to that was seen as abusive?

If they aren't aware that they are being irrational, and their irrational behavior is perceived by them to be rational and acceptable or "normal" and they receive a reaction from us, even though it is in self defense, are we then seen as being abusive to them since they don't see a problem with their own behavior?

If you think about it, any time that they pushed our buttons until we blew up, when we finally blew up or defended ourselves, we were viewed as the bad person, and their part in that is written off as if it didn't even happen.

Opinions?
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2017, 04:56:36 PM »

I was on the other end of this one. I was the one that was getting so worn down by my ex that I was getting angry and blowing up. And she totally projected onto me that I was abusing her. She responded to me like I had abused her. She also saw my boundaries as me being selfish. She saw a lot of things as me not caring about her. When I was upset with her she said I didn't "respect her"... .There was a lot.

I DO think that they believe these things. That is why it's so hard and confusing for us when we are in it. Because for me at least, when I saw my ex responding to me like I had abused her? I didn't know about BPD, and so I didn't know how to take that any other way. Even though I knew it wasn't true, it totally opened me up to that stuff, and got me to start taking responsibility for things that were not mine.

I think they totally see themselves as the victim and us as the abuser. It's how they have to paint it, other wise they would have to take responsibility for their part--and the story of a Borderline is that they can't face the truth about themselves.
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2017, 04:59:12 PM »

i think its a keen observation, FallenOne. we can get carried away, dismissing negative and hurtful statements as "projection".

people with BPD struggle with object constancy, the ability to see a person and their actions (past and present) as an integrated whole - hence the black and white, all good or all bad way many of us were characterized.

 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) some of the hurtful statements we heard are indeed how our exes felt when they stated them (there may or may not be a kernel of truth or more)
 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) some were projection
 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) some looked to us like hypocrisy, which isnt the same thing as projection.
 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) people say things they may regret when emotions are flared.

If you think about it, any time that they pushed our buttons until we blew up, when we finally blew up or defended ourselves, we were viewed as the bad person, and their part in that is written off as if it didn't even happen.

Opinions?

blowing up is a form of validating beliefs of persecution, yes.

is all of this splitting hairs or does it matter? i think it does. its a bigger picture view of our relationships and how they transpired - the role we may have been oblivious that we were ever even playing.
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abraxus
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2017, 05:02:11 PM »

I think perhaps it is genuinely seen as abusive by them, as they only see in the moment.

In other words, they act in a certain way, and you react to it. All they can see is the last step in the process, your reaction, and are blind to the build up, as they can't see it in context or the big picture.

I don't think this is a purely selfish thing though, as I've seen it work the other way round too. For example, if my ex was angry or rude, and I didn't react, then usually she'd apologise once she'd calmed down. So, once again, she only saw the last step in the process, which this time was hers.

I think it's helpful therefore to not see their behaviour as selfish, or deliberate, or manipulative, and just a consequence of how they think, act and react. Once you do that, you can remove blame, and therefore guilt from the picture, and get a better handle on how to deal with it.
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FallenOne
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2017, 05:07:41 PM »

With all of this in mind, is a fairly functional relationship with them actually possible then if you just don't react to their outbursts and crazy behavior?

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cubicinch
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2017, 05:09:29 PM »

I was on the other end of this one. I was the one that was getting so worn down by my ex that I was getting angry and blowing up. And she totally projected onto me that I was abusing her. She responded to me like I had abused her. She also saw my boundaries as me being selfish. She saw a lot of things as me not caring about her. When I was upset with her she said I didn't "respect her"... .There was a lot.

I DO think that they believe these things. That is why it's so hard and confusing for us when we are in it. Because for me at least, when I saw my ex responding to me like I had abused her? I didn't know about BPD, and so I didn't know how to take that any other way. Even though I knew it wasn't true, it totally opened me up to that stuff, and got me to start taking responsibility for things that were not mine.

I think they totally see themselves as the victim and us as the abuser. It's how they have to paint it, other wise they would have to take responsibility for their part--and the story of a Borderline is that they can't face the truth about themselves.
on the money...

my girlfriend would totally blow up in the middle of a busy store, blaming me for something as simple as not remembering to bring carry bags from the car to put shopping in. It was her car, her bags... why should it be solely my fault? And so it goes on, and on. As soon as I started to really question just what the hell was going on with her, instead of sitting down and discussing it like adults, I got unceremoniously and coldly dumped. It's probably all my fault, easier than having to look at themselves and what they did wrong.
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cubicinch
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2017, 05:15:16 PM »

on the money...

my girlfriend would totally blow up in the middle of a busy store, blaming me for something as simple as not remembering to bring carry bags from the car to put shopping in. It was her car, her bags... why should it be solely my fault? And so it goes on, and on. As soon as I started to really question just what the hell was going on with her, instead of sitting down and discussing it like adults, I got unceremoniously and coldly dumped. It's probably all my fault, easier than having to look at themselves and what they did wrong.
Yes, it can work... I used to dissolve my girlfriends outbursts which would occur in public, like she had no awareness at all, by not responding in a mirror like outburst. I would put her straight in a calm manor, and simply move on. She would quickly do the same, like it never happened... but the question is: do you really want to be in a relationship like that all the time? And if so, have you got the patience to deal with and give it the time to influence a change in their behaviour (if even possible)? It's a power struggle!
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abraxus
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2017, 05:25:06 PM »

With all of this in mind, is a fairly functional relationship with them actually possible then if you just don't react to their outbursts and crazy behavior?

Well yes, but in all honesty it's only really feasible, and functional for both parties, if you're quite a non reactionary person in the first place, or are prepared to become one. Essentially you need to be fully in control of your own emotions, before you stand a hope of managing theirs, and few people are, it's not natural.

There seems to be a lot of unhappy people trying to make such a relationship work, and sometimes I wonder why. They seem to be saying that  they want x in a relationship, but that their partner gives them y, and so how can they steer them to x. Maybe they can, maybe they can't, but to do so they have to realise they have to put in effort, and not take the view of "why should I have to do that". The simple answer is just "because".

BPD's are difficult, but not impossible. Some people have the personality to handle them naturally, some have to work at it, and others simply can't, that's just the way it is.

Ultimately each person has to decide what they want in life and what they're prepared to do for it. Maybe someone just wants a quiet, happy life, but if they want a pony ride then don't jump on a highly strung, thoroughbred racehorse. Having done so, then you either need to learn to be a jockey, or jump off and find a pony.
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cubicinch
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2017, 05:29:10 PM »

If you are hurt by their handling of you, then a BPD is not for you. Possibly!
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2017, 05:48:41 PM »

If I would remain calm mine would at times get even more angry because she wasn't getting the reaction she wanted. I feel a mutually satisfying relationship with an untreated BPD is extremely rare. Who would want to live like that- being berated, criticized, lied to, and yelled at on a regular basis.
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abraxus
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2017, 06:07:10 PM »

I think it's all too easy to tar them all with the same brush, which is a bit unfair. Sure, they may all share similar traits but they are, at least in parts, individuals too.

My ex would have moods, and get angry, silent treatment, and even be unreasonable at times. However, she never yelled at me, berated me, or criticised me. I'm pretty sure she was capable of it, as she'd told me how she's spoken to other people so, whilst she may have started to go off one, a quick word, or a look, would usually get her to back down.

It's hard to describe, as I never deliberately modified my behaviour, but I don't think it's just about being calm and accepting it. It's more about making it clear that it's not acceptable, but in a calm way. Fighting it head on, or being calm in a passive way, seems to provoke an attack response, whereas a middle ground, of calm assertiveness seems to usually be more effective.
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FallenOne
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2017, 06:47:31 PM »

I don't think it's just about being calm and accepting it. It's more about making it clear that it's not acceptable, but in a calm way. Fighting it head on, or being calm in a passive way, seems to provoke an attack response, whereas a middle ground, of calm assertiveness seems to usually be more effective.

I tried this many times... Didn't work. It worked temporarily... I told my ex many, many times that her behavior was unacceptable and how much it was upsetting me. She would admit that she was being irrational sometimes, the situation calmed down, and things were okay again, and she said "she would work on making it not happen anymore" but after days, weeks, months, there was always another blowup and always another argument or situation that she escalated...

It was impossible for her to "work on it"... .her working on it, was a temporary thing that never lasted.
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FallenOne
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 06:51:04 PM »

I feel a mutually satisfying relationship with an untreated BPD is extremely rare. Who would want to live like that- being berated, criticized, lied to, and yelled at on a regular basis.

Mine was heavily medicated, in therapy and diagnosed and STILL almost impossible to manage... .

So I would like to know how treatment is even a factor in this?

She's awful, treated or untreated...
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2017, 06:57:14 PM »

Fallen One- mine once went two full weeks without freaking out because I had threatened to end it when she exploded at me out of the blue in front of my kids. She completely ambushed me and just minutes before I was hugging her and telling her how I loved her. Normally she couldn't make it more than a couple of days without starting a fight. She was absolutely impossible.
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abraxus
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2017, 07:21:36 PM »

I tried this many times... Didn't work. It worked temporarily... I told my ex many, many times that her behavior was unacceptable and how much it was upsetting me. She would admit that she was being irrational sometimes, the situation calmed down, and things were okay again, and she said "she would work on making it not happen anymore" but after days, weeks, months, there was always another blowup and always another argument or situation that she escalated...

It was impossible for her to "work on it"... .her working on it, was a temporary thing that never lasted.

Best I can say is a couple of things.

First is that you can never stop it happening for good. She really does mean it when she says she'll try not to, but just can't help it. On the plus side, at least she acknowledged that it's a problem with her. All you can do is defuse it as best as you can each time. That just seems to be the way it is I'm afraid, and something you're either prepared to deal with or not.

Secondly, there's one thing I have noticed with those BPD (at least the ones I've known), that appears very contradictory to how a lot of people view it. On the surface, their behaviour appears to be incredibly selfish and self centered, but that's often about defensiveness and self protection. Underneath that, there is a genuine desire to be "good" and to make you happy, but the price for this is that it needs to be constantly acknowledged, or addressed in very specific ways. So, whilst she can understand that something is unacceptable, it's much harder for her to process being told that she's upsetting you.

In my experience the latter can set off two triggers. The first is that in her mind it's making her responsible for your feelings, which she can't handle. The second is that she sees it as being told that she's a failure at making you happy, which can be pretty crushing for someone with low self esteem. Some will just be incredibly remorseful, whilst others will lash out at what they see as being "made" to feel that way.

Wording can be important in this regard, as saying you're upset makes it all about you, and opens you up to being told it's your problem if you can't cope. Saying something like you're "disappointed" instead, can show that your own feelings aren't negatively affected, and only your perception of her, which is then fully her responsibility to address.

Like I said, each person is different, and so all I know is that these things worked for me.
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cubicinch
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2017, 05:23:00 AM »

I think my ex was quite aware of the damage she was reaping around her but couldn't or didn't know how to stop herself. When we had problems, she text me and said I think I've hurt you and it has gone beyond fixing. So I replied to not show hurt (which I had dealt with and moved forward) and tell her not to make assumptions about my feelings and that we needed to talk.

Of course she couldn't face up to that, talking about herself, so she had engineered an escape route, finding a way out, texting me with seemingly no emotion that we were both free to go dating again. I think there was some emotion though, I think it showed her self pity and depression, removing a positive, good thing from her life. One comment she made that I remembered was that she was always good at advising others but could never sort her own life out. 
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2017, 08:29:06 AM »

When my BPD wife left a few weeks ago, I was crushed. I still am. But I sit here now trying to apologize for things that the average person would not be upset over. To her, she was my slave. She hasn't been able to hold a job but asking her to do dishes and laundry while she was home all day was me being a slave driver even if I helped before I left for work in the morning.

When describing why she left she claimed mental, emotional and physical abuse even through I tried my hardest to not mention it when I had to do things in my own on my days off and she would lay in bed on her phone or go out and talked to other guys. She admitted her daily routine of abuse but it was a speck of the abuse I would give her once to twice a month when I got angry at the other men or having to do everything myself.

I try to ask myself if I would be upset if I was in a normal relationship. The answer is most likely not but then that's what we sign up for, right?
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2017, 11:49:57 AM »

With all of this in mind, is a fairly functional relationship with them actually possible then if you just don't react to their outbursts and crazy behavior?

it depends on what you mean - if "dont react" = ignore, thats never a good recipe. if it means learning to not lose your cool (which everyone does from time to time) it helps. often times outbursts are about getting a reaction. instinctively, we tend to react in a way that makes it worse, often encourages more of the same.
a lot of us got caught up in trying new ways and approaches to "manage" our partner. some of those were a better approach than what we were doing, but may have appeared to backfire at first, so we tried something else, things continued to breakdown, and the dysfunction only grew. we tend to blame that solely on our exes and miss the bigger picture.  

the members on Improving put a lot of focus on cleaning up their side of the street. in some cases, their partners follow their lead. things may improve, become more stable (its rarely easy street). primarily, there may be less stress, and more peace, for the non partner who has chosen to stay.

they learn to become more self aware about their role in the dysfunction; its less about not reacting, and more about not reacting in a way that makes things worse, as well as learning to depersonalize. please dont equate that with simply tolerating abuse, either.

in some cases, the relationship still fails, as relationships do - one or both end it. psychology tools can help a lot, they cannot force any relationship to work.

how does this apply to us on the Detaching board?

Improving members have experienced the same struggles that we have (during our relationships). they still are. they have healing to do when they arrive. the path there is much the same.

we on the Detaching board have a tendency toward a black and white viewpoint of our relationships - that there was absolutely nothing we ever could have done to improve the relationship or make it work. why? its comforting. its pretty reasonable when we are wounded. i dont think anyone on this board didnt try their hardest. i remember being highly triggered at any notion that there was a valid reason other than borderline personality disorder that my relationship ended. i asked friends and family to reassure me otherwise.

it was a crutch. as we heal, we want to let go of the crutches. face the facts. its where the real healing begins.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2017, 12:03:45 PM »

With all due respect Once Removed, blaming the failure of the RS on BPD is hardly a crutch in most cases. It's more of a reality
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2017, 12:17:14 PM »

has it helped you to heal, Duped?
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2017, 12:56:25 PM »

It's a struggle. I'm just saying there's a reason even experienced counselors will say to stay out of relationships w BPDs due to all of the destruction and abuse.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2017, 02:35:23 PM »

What if in their minds, when they were losing their temper, raging, yelling, having an outburst, that it was just normal and acceptable behavior to them and that our reaction to that was seen as abusive?

Projection and paranoia were two of the biggest issues in our relationship, a deadly combination. I'm pretty sure my ex really did think I was abusing him. Sometimes I doubt it, as I'd known him since he had his first girlfriend and I'd listened as he accused all his previous partners of abuse (but in very vague terms - he could never give specific examples of what they'd done, it was just paranoid ranting about what he imagined they must be thinking). It can still seem baffling to me that he couldn't recognise that the common denominator in all of this was him. How can someone repeat such a pattern again and again and not learn from it? But my ex's insight really was that impaired. I never heard him take responsibility for anything and he was convinced that any problem in his life was other people's fault, and usually to do with them persecuting him.

I never lashed out in response, but my reaction was equally maladaptive: I would apologise compulsively, even when I knew his accusations were completely unreasonable and even when I didn't know what I was meant to be apologising for. I'd beg him to forgive me and promise to do better. This only fed into the behaviour.
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2017, 03:03:45 PM »

If I would remain calm mine would at times get even more angry because she wasn't getting the reaction she wanted. I feel a mutually satisfying relationship with an untreated BPD is extremely rare. Who would want to live like that- being berated, criticized, lied to, and yelled at on a regular basis.

Exactly. I personally found it impossible. In the end a choice has to made about your future. We don't know how long we have so do you really want to spend that time in a situation like that?
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