How to hold to boundaries around money

[peacemountain]

I would greatly appreciate any advice you all could give on setting and maintaining boundaries around money.

We have a few complicating factors:
My uBPDh is the one who stays home with our youngest child while I'm the one who works.
I've always been of the mindset that what I make is "ours" and it's our responsibility to budget responsibly.
He want's to have nothing to do with helping me budget or pay the bills. When I ask to review or discuss, it never happens.
I've budgeted for each of us to have $250 per month personal allowance to spend on whatever we please.
The rest goes to bills, mortgage, college savings funds, etc.

The characteristic that I'm seeing is that extravagant spending and buying one thing after another is some sort of coping mechanism. In the past three months he has spent $3300 on all sorts on non essential items - a TV, gaming systems, games, clothing, musical instruments, etc. (keep in mind his allowance is 250/month) When he's agitated or unhappy, he'll get fixated on the latest thing and have to buy it immediately.

When I bring up the issue with him, I get raged at or get the silent treatment. When I say no to a purchase I get the same thing. If I cave... .well that's where the $3300 comes from.

He used to at least ask. It was my own fault for saying yes and not setting up the boundaries. Now, though, I have a monster on my hands. $2000 of the last three months was spent during a fight, where he left the house saying he was going to move out and find his own apartment. He came back with a TV and a new gun and no apartment.

What do I do? Do I cancel the credit cards? How do enforce boundaries around budget when he's now spending without even seeking a yes from me?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ArleighBurke]

Ouch!

If he wants to have no part in finances, then YOU are in control. $250/month fun money - is that each or combined?

I would suggest taking away his credit cards. Either give him CASH each month for what he can "blow", or give him a DEBIT card that only has the money you allocate. I think cash could be better - because he can easily see how much he has.

But he has clearly demonstrated he cannot be trusted to regulate his own limit. So (treat him like a child and) impose limits on him. Otherwise you will end up in a LOT of debt and that'll be hard to recover from.

[peacemountain]

Thanks AB. Yes, that's 250 each. So in the last three months he's essentially spent over 12 months worth of allowance. And he's demanding to purchase more as we speak. I think if he does, it will necessitate me cancelling the credit card. And only allowing access to the cash/debit containing his allowance. I hate being the parent in this relationship!

Today I've reinforced with him that our budget allocates 250 each per month. (Personally, I think that I'm being generous to overlook the past 3 months and continue to give an allowance in the coming months). I've told him that no, he will not be purchasing a $1500 mac nor another $400 guitar today.

We're now in an extinction burst from that discussion. He's threatening to leave, to spend the money anyway, calling me all sorts of horrible names, etc. all via text which I'm choosing not to respond to.

I know we have to go through this chaos when enforcing boundaries, but it gives me EXTREME anxiety. Right now I feel like throwing up. I'm tense. I can't concentrate on work. I hate this!

[waverider]

Yep cancel cards, at least any he has access to, and quarantine any accounts for bills etc. I know this makes it more work for you.

Poor impulse control and consistent long term thinking will mean that despite any agreements, emotional impulse control will always override any previously agreed arrangements.

The usual open sharing of funds will rarely work with pwBPD, unless they have a particularly obsession in that regard. They will always Rob peter to pay Paul, then not pay Paul back.

Distorted logic is used in hindsight to validate an impulsive emotional action, rather than use clear logic to determine responsible actions.

[Grey Kitty]

Enforcing boundaries is about action, not words.

Fortunately with you as the one making income, you can easily take the actions:

Get your paycheck direct deposited into an account not in his name, with $250/month put in a joint account or account in his name.

Cancel/freeze any credit joint credit cards. (As the one with income, you might get a card just in your name)

Hope that he doesn't apply for and get credit in his name that messes you up too badly, since being married, credit ratings are somewhat joint.


The extinction burst brings up some new boundaries for you to enforce--you now need to deal with threats, verbal abuse, etc... .which he is aiming at you because you are enforcing the financial boundaries.

[peacemountain]

The extinction burst brings up some new boundaries for you to enforce--you now need to deal with threats, verbal abuse, etc... .which he is aiming at you because you are enforcing the financial boundaries.

Yes, I can imagine if I didn't make the money, it would be much more disastrous.

Please suggest some ways to build and enforce boundaries around the classic I'm leaving/pulling the eject lever theme: "well i guess we should just divorce" "you're obviously miserable with me so why don't you do something about it" "i won't be here when you get home"

My strategy so far is to not react or to calmly say maybe that's what we should do.

I'm so close to just leaving right now. I'm terribly exhausted by this endless cycle and heartache. He ejects and destructs the relationship at every turn. I'm reaching the point where I feel like I'm unable to put the pieces back together again.

[Grey Kitty]

Please suggest some ways to build and enforce boundaries around the classic I'm leaving/pulling the eject lever theme: "well i guess we should just divorce" "you're obviously miserable with me so why don't you do something about it" "i won't be here when you get home"

My best response is along these lines:

"I love you and don't want to split, but I won't force you to stay if you want to leave."

You are doing two things--working against the fear of abandonment with some reassurance that you want to stay together... .and validating that he has a choice whether to stay or go, and leaving that choice with him.

It takes two people to start or stay in a r/s, but it only takes one to end it. This is a fundamental and obvious truth, which underlies the situation. Neither of you can change it, and there's no reason for you to remind him of it directly; it will just twig his fear of abandonment. Still, it is good for you to remember this truth/reality.

... .anyhow... .does he actually walk out the door? Does he move out? And if so, who initiates the recycle/return?

Your plan on how to deal with it should include the lengths you expect him to go to, if he will do more than just make threats to leave.

I'm so close to just leaving right now.

Again, that is your choice, if or when you are ready to do it for yourself. Please remember that talking about the possibility with him won't help things.

[JoeBPD81]

I think you are pretty reasonable. If you keep under your $250, you can say that this is not something that he can't do, you can't either.  You love him, but you simply can't afford that kind of spending.

I get that 'wanting to buy stuff to feel less empty ', it's almost a foundation of our economy. But it's an addiction, and as with any addiction, you want to keep your loved ones away from that. It ultimately causes nothing but pain.

Just be sure to set an example. My ex wife used to spend a lot, we both worked, she would "need" a trip or two a year worth thousands of dollars, and then  would question if it was so necessary for me to have lunch with friends and spend $10, maybe once every two or three months. And that wasn't OK.

[peacemountain]

Just be sure to set an example. My ex wife used to spend a lot, we both worked, she would "need" a trip or two a year worth thousands of dollars, and then  would question if it was so necessary for me to have lunch with friends and spend $10, maybe once every two or three months. And that wasn't OK.

Agree. I never spend over my allowance for that very reason. In fact rarely spend more than 50$ total a month because of the stress of keeping us afloat. Every dollar matters and I'm trying to make up for his overspending.

@Grey Kitty - good advice. There's clearly a fine balancing line here. Not reacting, but also setting the record straight that I don't want to split (even though at the moment, that is where my mind is going). And no, he never follows through on the leaving. He'll say he's going to get an apartment, move out, etc but by the next day he's trying to sugar me up. The only time we've ever been apart is one night when I didn't not feel safe coming home to one of his rages. I stayed with a girlfriend. And be assured, he will never let me forget that. And denies that I should have ever been afraid even though he has been physically abusive in the past.

I have not talked with him about leaving. Even leaving for a walk during a rage escalates things to where I'm concerned about him becoming physically abusive.

We've cycled so many times, I'm nearing the point where I feel something more drastic is going to be needed. I don't want a divorce. But I do want change. I want for him to enjoy his life and be happy and healthy. I want to be happy and healthy and free of the daily hurt and drama. I want our kids to grow up in a home where they aren't afraid of the reprimand they'll get for leaving crumbs on the table or getting out too many toys. I think it's going to take me standing up and saying that we need to get help. We need to make changes and pull others in for support. And if that is not going to happen, we need to separate so that I can care for my own health and the health of my kids. The scary part is that it's very likely that he'll not understand that, and there will be no recovery from that point. I will be painted black for ever. He adamantly refuses counseling - individual or couples. It's just always promises that things will get better. And yet we're back here again.

[Grey Kitty]

And no, he never follows through on the leaving. He'll say he's going to get an apartment, move out, etc but by the next day he's trying to sugar me up.

Given that you have little reason to expect him to actually leave, and given that you are actually considering splitting, fear of those threats shouldn't be too hard for you to face.

And once you are past that fear, the only thing you have to do is try to reasonable/constructively/compassionately deal with the situation--where your H is clearly horribly upset, hurting, angry, etc. (As I suggested earlier)

The only time we've ever been apart is one night when I didn't not feel safe coming home to one of his rages. I stayed with a girlfriend. And be assured, he will never let me forget that. And denies that I should have ever been afraid even though he has been physically abusive in the past.

I have not talked with him about leaving. Even leaving for a walk during a rage escalates things to where I'm concerned about him becoming physically abusive.

It doesn't matter that he denies behaving that way. You are responsible for using your own judgement, and doing what is safe for you and safe for your children, regardless of what he says.

That he will escalate when you try to leave isn't a surprise; If you do, you are taking away his current favorite coping mechanism--using you as an emotional punching bag. Which leaves him with difficult emotions and the sudden need to find a new way to cope with them.

A couple suggestions--First, remove yourself/end the rage/argument/dysregulation earlier, before he is that upset. Here's the sequence I'd recommend:

1. Realize he's become upset/critical. (Hopefully before he's shouting, but whenever you 'catch yourself' and notice if it has gone farther). Say "I won't be spoken to that way"

2. If he continues at you, leave the room. (Going to the bathroom sometimes helps)

3. If he follows you into another room, then leave the house.

Second suggestion, a bonus one... .things you can do to make it easier for him to cope with your leaving... .and if you are upset enough that this will slow down your departure, just go instead.

1. Make it about yourself. I've left saying "If I stay here any longer, I'll say something I will regret" [Which was true, I might add--I was not at a place I could validate and was close to screaming back]

2. Give a clear return time, and possibly indication that where you will be. (This helps build confidence and mitigate the fear of abandonment) Don't use words like 'soon' which are vague. "I'm going to walk around the block; I'll be back in 20 minutes." "I'm going to the store, I'll be back in an hour." "I'll be back after work" "I will be back in the morning."

Then, do exactly what you said you would do. Return on schedule. But note--you are not promising to return and be an emotional punching bag--you are promising to return. If you return, and he launches into you immediately, turn around and leave again. (Likely for longer, since it wasn't long enough for him to calm down last time!)

It will take a while, but if you do this consistently, he will stop getting any useful payoff from verbal abuse of you, and won't try it often. You will probably find that he will honor the earlier, lower-level responses as he gets used to it.

I want to be happy and healthy and free of the daily hurt and drama. I want our kids to grow up in a home where they aren't afraid of the reprimand they'll get for leaving crumbs on the table or getting out too many toys.

This kind of boundary enforcement I've described will get you most of the way there, without the need for counseling or anything else. You can protect yourself from this behavior, quite effectively. When it comes to protecting your kids, that is a lot harder; it is harder to protect them from him. And if he escalates a conflict with you to taking it out on the kids if you leave, that's a really hard one to deal with.

[ArleighBurke]

I want for him to enjoy his life and be happy and healthy. I want to be happy and healthy and free of the daily hurt and drama. I want our kids to grow up in a home where they aren't afraid of the reprimand they'll get for leaving crumbs on the table or getting out too many toys. I think it's going to take me standing up and saying that we need to get help. We need to make changes and pull others in for support. And if that is not going to happen, we need to separate so that I can care for my own health and the health of my kids. The scary part is that it's very likely that he'll not understand that, and there will be no recovery from that point. I will be painted black for ever. He adamantly refuses counseling - individual or couples. It's just always promises that things will get better. And yet we're back here again.

I think this is so true for all of us. We love our partners and want the best for them and us. But no matter what WE do, we cannot control them. They see, experience and remember the world very differently. So we stay stuck. Hoping... .

[peacemountain]

I can't thank you enough. @GreyKitty the steps you outline seem so clear and straightforward in my head and then when I get in the situation everything gets confused and turned around and upside-down. Being an emotional punching bag is the perfect analogy and states it so well. It also explains why I get so turned around and cornered. ":)iscussions" become boxing practice in a matter of seconds. If you can imagine 2 people in the ring, one who doesn't want to fight, that person will run circles trying to evade, put their hands up to shield themselves, and ultimately gets pretty beat up. With a couple of good blows to the head you're left dazed and confused. Best strategy is to step quickly out of the ring even if you're told by the fighter that's against the rules.

After yet another session this morning of somehow getting myself into a situation of being yelled at and accused of everything under the sun I'm thinking I need to circumvent the episode even sooner, before I'm disoriented. You see, lately, almost 100% of the time, he's silently seething just underneath the surface. Every time we have contact, I'm trying to assess where he's at and where the mines are located.

That was the case this morning. I approached with a good morning and a hug and was told he didn't want to have anything to do with me. He then started into all the things I've done wrong. It escalated so quickly and I can see exactly where I mis-stepped. He was clearly upset and started the emotional punching almost immediately (yelling, cussing, and accusations). I said that I didn't want to argue and that we could talk about it after work once I had had a chance to calm down. I went to the bathroom and closed the door. He yelled after me that I was the one ruining our relationship because I wouldn't talk with him. He then opened the door and continued the emotional punching session. At that moment I should have put on my coat and gone for a walk. But I didn't. For some reason I thought I had to defend myself. To defend my reasoning for exiting the conversation, to defend my right to see a counselor, etc. And it just went around and around. Him punching, me deflecting and stinging from the hits (emotional not physical). (and yes I need to re-read and practice JADE)

And yes, giving a specific time and sticking to it when I leave does seem to alleviate the dysregulation in my experience when stepping out.

[Grey Kitty]

I can't thank you enough. @GreyKitty the steps you outline seem so clear and straightforward in my head and then when I get in the situation everything gets confused and turned around and upside-down.

Yes, I lay them out like they are simple steps. Which they are.

I never said that anything about it was easy. Don't confuse simple with easy. You have to do it when voices inside you are screaming at you not to do this. (In your case, there are often external voices screaming at you too)

But it is possible to do it. And it gets easier with practice. You will get there. Except the times you stumble, mess up, and fall back into your old patterns. That will happen less often over time, but it still does. Forgive yourself. Stand up, and do it better next time.

He yelled after me that I was the one ruining our relationship because I wouldn't talk with him. He then opened the door and continued the emotional punching session.

When you enforce a boundary (i.e. not sticking around for a verbally abusive circular argument), you simply have to do it. As in you have to leave.

You don't have to convince him that you are doing the right thing when you decide to leave. (And if you try, you end up JADEing all over the place)

The key is holding firm to your reality, your experience, and not letting him twist you around. Getting out fast is more important than getting out cleanly or gracefully, if you have to make the choice.