It's trickier when it goes down in public

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Some days I think she would say I'm "wrong" if I handed her a million dollar check.  Sigh... .


D6 is a stubborn child... .some days it takes some extra talking and restraint to keep things in order.  My wife wanted us to go as a family to Sam's club for pizza and to get things for Easter.  Fair enough... .I went along with it.

D6 starts being oppositional as soon as we get there.  Not wanting to take direction from me, mommy or her older brother who is her "buddy".  So... .I was the "heavy" and put her in her place... .several times.  She wimpered and cried... .

I asked my wife if she had other ideas... .none were shared.

Next point of opposition was the drink she was going to have.  She rejected the coke given to her... .another coke  was clearly better.  I let her know she could make choices with the coke she was given and left it at that.

My wife sits down and my daughter asks her for a different coke.  My wife immediately starts to "give in" without asking me whats up first.  To D6s credit... .she told/asked mommy... .":)addy won't let me have that drink"... .pointing to the one she wanted. 

My wife gave her the one she wanted and I immediately asked if it could be put back, since I was teaching a lesson.  My wife complied but asked rhetorically... ."So... she's not allowed to drink now?"

I didn't bite. 

Well... the visit continued with similar snippy things being said.  As we are loading the vehicles, (we took two... .D6 rode with me).  My wife orders D6 into my van... I was asking her to wait.  D6 follows her Mom's orders and opens van door... .and clunks a car parked next.  I said no... .stop... .so D6 clunks the car again.

We are talking actual dent.  No idea why she did it so hard.

My wife acted innocent "I "just" told her to get into the van... .".

I said "Please leave them a note.  This was your decision, I would appreciate you handling this"

She left a note.

I read it before I left.  She left the note in my name... my phone number.

I called her as I was driving away and asked her to leave a new note in her name and her phone number.  She hung up on me.

So... .I don't plan to bring it up again and if I don't get a phone call... .likely won't think much about it.

If I do get a phone call... .then what?

Sigh... .very frustrating.  Wife just came in the house... .still has a full head of steam... but isn't talking to me... .apparently.

FF

[formflier]

Some days I think she would say I'm "wrong" if I handed her a million dollar check.  Sigh... .


D6 is a stubborn child... .some days it takes some extra talking and restraint to keep things in order.  My wife wanted us to go as a family to Sam's club for pizza and to get things for Easter.  Fair enough... .I went along with it.

D6 starts being oppositional as soon as we get there.  Not wanting to take direction from me, mommy or her older brother who is her "buddy".  So... .I was the "heavy" and put her in her place... .several times.  She wimpered and cried... .

I asked my wife if she had other ideas... .none were shared.

Next point of opposition was the drink she was going to have.  She rejected the coke given to her... .another coke  was clearly better.  I let her know she could make choices with the coke she was given and left it at that.

My wife sits down and my daughter asks her for a different coke.  My wife immediately starts to "give in" without asking me whats up first.  To D6s credit... .she told/asked mommy... .":)addy won't let me have that drink"... .pointing to the one she wanted. 

My wife gave her the one she wanted and I immediately asked if it could be put back, since I was teaching a lesson.  My wife complied but asked rhetorically... ."So... she's not allowed to drink now?"

I didn't bite. 

Well... the visit continued with similar snippy things being said.  As we are loading the vehicles, (we took two... .D6 rode with me).  My wife orders D6 into my van... I was asking her to wait.  D6 follows her Mom's orders and opens van door... .and clunks a car parked next.  I said no... .stop... .so D6 clunks the car again.

We are talking actual dent.  No idea why she did it so hard.

My wife acted innocent "I "just" told her to get into the van... .".

I said "Please leave them a note.  This was your decision, I would appreciate you handling this"

She left a note.

I read it before I left.  She left the note in my name... my phone number.

I called her as I was driving away and asked her to leave a new note in her name and her phone number.  She hung up on me.

So... .I don't plan to bring it up again and if I don't get a phone call... .likely won't think much about it.

If I do get a phone call... .then what?

Sigh... .very frustrating.  Wife just came in the house... .still has a full head of steam... but isn't talking to me... .apparently.

FF

[formflier]

An interesting observation... .

It would appear that my wife came home with a full head of steam and instead of engaging with me on any topic, she went to our walk in pantry, sat on top of the freezer in there... and texted furiously for 15-20 minutes.

I'm guessing she is texting her mentor.

There was a lot to put away from the sams club trip and as I was taking the sugar in to put it away... .was surprised when I walked in on my wife texting away. 

I confirmed the place to put the sugar with her and walked out. 

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Sounds like she sorta disengaged pretty quickly after the confrontation, and self soothed (via texting mentor)?  (Yet, I did note her seemingly passive aggressive behaviors there, but seems good enough to ignore and allow all the self soothing she feels she needs)

If this is the result of dealing with an "abusive monster" who is denying his kid hydration impairing kids health, etc, or whatever you will be blamed for... .

Disengaging, and self soothing seem good things?

I mean, not to minimize stuff but heck, sounds like typically when your wife triangulates you she is using God to rescue, (or a mentor of his, etc. at least not her family in this situation) her the victim from you.  Just thinking, if others wish their wife triangulated God more? (Vs another)  

Like she started out triangulating kid... .to be expected to happen time to time, right?
But then when you effectively stopped that, she redirected the triangle for mentor to save her... . imo, cool! . At least you effectively removed kid from triangle and she complied with most important part of it all.  

[formflier]

I pretty much have the same analysis... .attitude.

I get to choose if I triangulate or not.  If my wife wants to do that with others... .or God.  That's her choice.

I do get a "vote" in if she tries to triangulate a kid (our kid) in the mix.

Big picture.  This is a good thing (relatively speaking) that she is doing. 

Now... .off to deprive my kids of further sustenance... .obviously I have nothing better to do... .

FF

[BeagleGirl]

FormFlier,
I have been inspired by your stories of setting and holding boundaries.  I totally agree that it must be exponentially harder when you are in public and other people (the owner of the car next to your van) are involved.  
It sounds like you are having some measure of success with your wife, but I hear an underlying sadness in your posts.  While her behavior seems to be adjusting, it seems like you are longing for a heart change that would make her a more willing participant or even partner in changing the nature of your relationship.  Am I hearing correctly, or just projecting?
BeagleGirl

[Sunfl0wer]

Ooh, I like your analysis FF, better than mine! (Hence why I paroose around, -to learn somethin)

Love how you focused on YOUR behavior, responses and not hers so much.  Cause really, sometimes we may use a tool and get a dysregulating wife.  :)oesn't mean we used the wrong tool or used the tool wrong.

Anyway, I think it is great you focused on framing what occured around what your choices were:
Enforcing boundary about triangulating kid (aka rescuing kid from dicipline)

Yet, with awareness that next time you do the same thing, she may respond differently, doesn't mean it was necessarily not the best choice you had.  But either way, still focusing on what you can impact... .your own choices. (Not the outcome)

[formflier]

You are hearing it... .loud and clear.  I don't talk openly about it, but also don't try to "cover it up".  

I was recently asked about the thing I wanted most.  It was in the context of a mens small group at church.  A place where we can be real and accountable to each other about our hearts and our Christian walk... .and leadership.

Well... .after some reflection my answer was empathy from my wife.  I remember when it used to be there.  

If you remember my story I was married 14-15 years before BPDish stuff showed up in force.  Knowing what I know now... .I saw hints earlier, just didn't understand it.  After a natural disaster forced us from our home for 6 months or so... .we were both emotional wrecks.  She started doing the BPD (PPD) paranoia thing and I invalidated her... .for a couple years.  

Proved her wrong... and me innocent of the accusation... .time and time again.  That has left deep scars and zero trust for either of us.

Thanks for the question... and the care with which you asked it. 

The situation is very sad.  I'm trying to make the best of it for me and for our family.  Also trying to let my wife make her own decisions and bear her own natural and logical consequences.  No rescuing.

Many times I end up being very "parental" with her... .and I'm trying to stay away from it.  It's easier now that she throws less tantrums... .hard to not treat someone like the age they are acting.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I said "Please leave them a note.  This was your decision, I would appreciate you handling this"

She left a note.

I read it before I left.  She left the note in my name... my phone number.

I called her as I was driving away and asked her to leave a new note in her name and her phone number.  She hung up on me.

I'd suggest you let this one go, because it isn't the real problem.

The real problem is that your wife is subverting your authority as a parent. (And it is a sticky problem, too, especially in public)

But the dent is something that D6 did, not something your wife did, or something you did. Perhaps her mood was triggered somewhat by the way the two of you argued about parenting stuff. Perhaps not. But D6 did it, and your wife didn't in any way ask her to dent the car next to you.

As parents, both you and your wife are responsible for the damage. Equally responsible.

You were pushing things a bit demanding that your wife deal with it since she was responsible for it. Her passive-aggressive solution (your name and #) pushed things a bit more. (When you checked the note, you could have written a new one with her name and number, instead of demanding she do it after she was driving away, if it was that important!)

Let this one go. Deal with the call if you get it.

And work on how to deal with the subversion of your authority with D6 and other children that you believe need to be disciplined. That's a real, ongoing problem.

[BeagleGirl]

FormFlier,
Thanks for the transparency about your feelings.  My husband was just diagnosed with BPD, but I can see it all through our our relationship.  Even after 2.5 months of separation I am struggling to remember times when I was genuinely loved and cared for rather than needed and relied on.  All through our marriage my prayer has been different forms of "God, please help him understand who you created him to be so that he can become that and stop hurting me". 
I am now feeling like I am at a cross roads.  The separation has been good for me, but hasn't changed his view of his role in our relationship, and I am trying to cope with the understanding that all I can hope to change is my response to him.  I am trying to look realistically at going back to a marriage where I will constantly be on my guard and may never see my prayer answered and I am overwhelmed by an incredible sadness.  I know that God has promised to be my stronghold, defender, shield, fortress in a time of trouble (are there other types of times in my future?) and "husband to the widow".  I want to be able to rest in that, but everything within me is rebelling.  I'm asking "Please God, can't you be my deliverer?  Didn't you come to 'proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free'?" then plugging my ears because I don't feel ready to be asked to do what I fear He will ask me to do - Go back.
So how do you cope with that sadness?  How do you stay and love someone who is not the "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh" that she is called to be?  Do you hold onto hope and dream of a better future, or have you let go of that and come to rely just on the "daily bread" that is promised?

*Side note*  There's a bitter part of me that wants to say "At least your biblical role is to lead, and you are able to fulfill that role.  My role of help meet has been distorted and perverted from helping my husband to fulfill the role God called him to into leading our family and trying to defend myself from him and our pastor's belief that "this is just a communication issue and if I just affirmed my husband's manhood and leadership this would all be solved."  I know that's totally unfair as a comparison and that your heart is just as broken over the brokenness of your relationship, so please feel free to give me more of your perspective.

[formflier]

 My wife orders D6 into my van... I was asking her to wait.  

In the big scheme of things... .to the outside world... .absolutely my wife and I are equally responsible.

When you re-frame the "lens" to look at our role of co-parents... .my wife bought this one.  I can't force her to pick it up and "own" it, but I'm not going to take responsibility for it... .ZERO.

I suppose further details are warranted.

D6 rode with me along with a few other kids.  Parking lot crowded... I would have liked more room, but you get what you get.  I was lucky enough to score a handicap spot , but not one with the extra room.

So... .when we unloaded... .I positioned S14 to make sure door didn't hit another car.  No dents.

Now... I didn't explain all this to my wife, she didn't ask.  In my world... .she is responsible for getting kids in her car... .I'm responsible for getting them in my car.  I would have asked if she needed help... before stepping in.  

I asked her to hold off as I went to get in drivers side... .only to see D6 opening the side door and the first bang.  I told her no and she banged it again (honestly... .I should have been more directive here and just said "shut the door".  

I head over to check damage and my wife is going the "I just said... ." minimizing thing.  Again... .not my place to explain to my wife the importance of following directions etc etc (that would be "parentifying" her)  She is an adult and can own the consequences of her direction to others... .and the consequences of ignoring her partner.

I mean really... how hard is it to ask why I wanted to wait?

Anyway... I can't force her to be responsible.  But I can clarify to her that I  will not be responsible for her decisions/directions.  No rescuing.

Thoughts?

Now... had she taken responsibility... .said anything that sounded like "sorry" or "oops" or anything like that... .I would have taken a completely different stance.   

FF

[formflier]

So how do you cope with that sadness?  How do you stay and love someone who is not the "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh" that she is called to be?  Do you hold onto hope and dream of a better future, or have you let go of that and come to rely just on the "daily bread" that is promised?
 

This is good question.  Just got back from a date with my wife.  I'm going to go for a quick walk to let dinner settle and think about this question some.  I "know" my answer, but it's a bit hard to express.

I will say this.  I believe that God uses relationships (especially our marital ones) to mature and refine us.  What you are contemplating is not an easy road.  However, I believe that is it a road that will deepen your faith.  Especially when you understand that love is a feeling and an action. 

God loves you and wants you to love you.  He sends his grace to you to comfort you AND so that you can spread that grace to others.  Especially your husband.

That doesn't mean you are a doormat.  Got clearly says in scripture that YOU are the one in charge of protecting YOUR heart.  (sounds like boundaries to me!)

Proverbs 4:23

Above all else, guard your heart,
for everything you do flows from it.

This is a verse that I have rested in and leaned on as I was attacked for being "prideful" and "selfish" for rejecting abuse.

When you think about the lessons we teach on bpdfamily.  It's very close. 

Boundaries first.  Put on your own oxygen mask first... .THEN try to help others. 

If I let my heart be damaged and that damage affects my ability to lead the children God has entrusted me with, that's on me.  Sure... .God will deal with my wife that's on her. 

But if I tried to justify sticking around for abuse "because it was my wife"... I think God would be sad and would ask a hard question of why I didn't "protect my heart".

I'll point you to another place.  Please read Matthew 7.  Take some time to linger on verse 6.  Can you see an application to your dilemma?

I'll be praying for wisdom.  You should too.  This stuff is not easy.  Above all else, protect your heart!



FF

[formflier]

So how do you cope with that sadness?  

I don't run from it or "cope".  The situation is one where it is completely appropriate to feel sad.  So I do.  If that means I need to so something special for self care or put something off until tomorrow, because I'm sad today, then that's what needs to happen.

I spent a lot of my life "stuffing" feelings or "compartmentalizing" things because stuff needed to get done.

I also have a really good Psychologist.  I have a wonderful mens group.  I swim a lot.  I go to breakfast with my Dad often, where we talk about the farm and family business.  There are old friends I regularly connect with on the phone.  Many more things like this.

There was a time when I "devoted" myself much more to my wife and ignored (said I didn't have time for) these other things.  Now I "force" myself to do some of those things, even when I don't feel like it.

Basically being deliberate about creating a life outside of my marriage.

     

How do you stay and love someone who is not the "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh" that she is called to be?

This is tough... .yet you have to realize that what you are called to do (loving your husband) is not "conditional" on someone else (him) doing the right thing.  Certainly things work much more smoothly when both parts of a marriage follow God's plan.  The worst is when neither are following.  

I will give an account about my actions.  I will give an account of my leadership to my wife as well.  I rest in my understanding that I am called to lead, she is called to follow.  I don't see where I am called to compel or force her.

So... I'm clear and then she has a choice.  I don't worry much about what happens after I clearly give leadership on an issue.

 Do you hold onto hope and dream of a better future, or have you let go of that and come to rely just on the "daily bread" that is promised?

I do have hope.  I also realize that a "full recovery" is unlikely.  I frame it in my mind like this:  There is little chance that I will "go back" to being the person that I was when I was 30 years old.  I've matured since then.

I don't expect my wife to do something that I'm not going to do.  While my wife is, for many things, not a willing participant in the change going on in our r/s, she is going with it.  Our relationship continues to improve.  While I don't control my wife, I'm in complete control of when and if I "participate" in our relationship.  

In effect, that does give me some control over my wife, although that control is imprecise.  Many times it appears that one dysfuction has been exchanged for another, while I try to think through how to use boundaries to protect myself and the relationship from the latest version of dysfunction.

This is when journaling, looking at old posts on this site and the ability to "step back" and look at the totality of things is helpful to keep perspective.

Case in point:  A few years ago I was worrying about how to get my wife to stop corporal punishment (I called it giving a beating).  Now I'm posting and frustrated about my wife "violating" boundaries about letting me load the kids I am responsible for... into my own van.

I spent a few hours cranked up about the "van incident".  The corporal punishment issue (with associated CPS involvement) went on for months.

Life is undeniably better.  

FF