What sorts of things become more clear with time?

[Depression = 72% of members]

After spending time with ex over the holiday weekend, it seems that some things have become more clear while other things have an even bigger question mark over them.

Some things that are even more clear. . .

His fear of abandonment. . .In addition to it being Easter, we were also celebrating a kid's birthday. All 6 of us went to the store together. He wanted to look for something that he needed. I had a list of stuff that I needed to get for me and the kids. I encouraged him to go off and get what he needed and we could meet back up later. Nope. He wouldn't do it. He said that he wanted to stay with us. He wouldn't go off on his own in the store. Um, so much like a child. I haven't really gone anywhere or done anything with him in quite a long time as I tend to make myself scarce when he is with the kids.

There were so many times over the years when I would encourage him to do stuff without me only to have him protest and insist that he and I do it together or that everything had to be done as a family. I realized how tiresome it was and why I was so exhausted. When it is just the kids and I, the kids will go off and not have to stay so close. When he is around, they want to cling to me as well. It is like it sucks all of the breath out of me.

His childishness. . .This isn't really a surprise. It is more that I want to vent and it was such a huge eye opener as to why I struggled so much with some things like parenting before he left. There was an incident over the weekend where one of the kids was very rude to him and told him to move because she wanted to sit there. I told her straight up, ":)on't talk to your father that way. That was rude." I called her on it and corrected her for talking to her dad like that. He got up, stuck his tongue out at our daughter, and moved to a different chair. I got onto him and told him that she was being rude and he was being juvenile and that both of them needed to knock it off. At that point, he stuck his tongue out at me trying to be funny. I didn't find it funny. It really got under my skin. I am trying to nip some things in the bud with the kids and have been since he left. When he comes over and does stuff like sticking his tongue out and wanting to be in the middle of everything, it makes everything so much more clear.

How much he tries to speak for everyone/hear himself talk. . .I have known this for years. After not being around him much, this became so unbelievably obvious and painful. I was doing something in my daughter's room and he came in and started asking questions and wanting this and that. He got me frazzled and I stubbed my toe. My daughter asked if I was okay and he couldn't even let me answer for myself. He had to jump in and start telling her what happened. She knew that I got hurt. She was wanting to know if I was okay yet he wanted to answer for me and tell her what I was thinking and feeling. I cut him off.

The impact of eating my words and biting my tongue. . .I hadn't really put this one together quite fully. This weekend, I put it all together. The first day he hung out, I didn't let him cut me off. I was very terse with him and, quite frankly, was a bit of a b word. I felt fine. The next day, the day that we were celebrating our daughter's birthday, I bit my tongue and tried not to say anything to upset anyone. By the end of the day, I had a horrible stomach ache and was sick and ended up throwing up. Being around him and being nice to him makes me physically ill even though he has been out for over a year.

At the beginning of this post, I mentioned a question that is looming even bigger. The question is: What in the world was I thinking? What did I see in him? How in the heck did I put up with THAT for almost 20 years?

Another thought that I wanted to throw out there and possibly get some feedback on. . .Is it common for things that I once thought were kind of cute I now see as annoying and problematic? I am also thinking that some of that stuff was okay for somebody in their 20s but not cool for somebody that is 40something with 4 kids and a bunch of responsibilities. So, I guess I may be answering my own questions. I think I grew up and he didn't.

[vortex of confusion]

After spending time with ex over the holiday weekend, it seems that some things have become more clear while other things have an even bigger question mark over them.

Some things that are even more clear. . .

His fear of abandonment. . .In addition to it being Easter, we were also celebrating a kid's birthday. All 6 of us went to the store together. He wanted to look for something that he needed. I had a list of stuff that I needed to get for me and the kids. I encouraged him to go off and get what he needed and we could meet back up later. Nope. He wouldn't do it. He said that he wanted to stay with us. He wouldn't go off on his own in the store. Um, so much like a child. I haven't really gone anywhere or done anything with him in quite a long time as I tend to make myself scarce when he is with the kids.

There were so many times over the years when I would encourage him to do stuff without me only to have him protest and insist that he and I do it together or that everything had to be done as a family. I realized how tiresome it was and why I was so exhausted. When it is just the kids and I, the kids will go off and not have to stay so close. When he is around, they want to cling to me as well. It is like it sucks all of the breath out of me.

His childishness. . .This isn't really a surprise. It is more that I want to vent and it was such a huge eye opener as to why I struggled so much with some things like parenting before he left. There was an incident over the weekend where one of the kids was very rude to him and told him to move because she wanted to sit there. I told her straight up, ":)on't talk to your father that way. That was rude." I called her on it and corrected her for talking to her dad like that. He got up, stuck his tongue out at our daughter, and moved to a different chair. I got onto him and told him that she was being rude and he was being juvenile and that both of them needed to knock it off. At that point, he stuck his tongue out at me trying to be funny. I didn't find it funny. It really got under my skin. I am trying to nip some things in the bud with the kids and have been since he left. When he comes over and does stuff like sticking his tongue out and wanting to be in the middle of everything, it makes everything so much more clear.

How much he tries to speak for everyone/hear himself talk. . .I have known this for years. After not being around him much, this became so unbelievably obvious and painful. I was doing something in my daughter's room and he came in and started asking questions and wanting this and that. He got me frazzled and I stubbed my toe. My daughter asked if I was okay and he couldn't even let me answer for myself. He had to jump in and start telling her what happened. She knew that I got hurt. She was wanting to know if I was okay yet he wanted to answer for me and tell her what I was thinking and feeling. I cut him off.

The impact of eating my words and biting my tongue. . .I hadn't really put this one together quite fully. This weekend, I put it all together. The first day he hung out, I didn't let him cut me off. I was very terse with him and, quite frankly, was a bit of a b word. I felt fine. The next day, the day that we were celebrating our daughter's birthday, I bit my tongue and tried not to say anything to upset anyone. By the end of the day, I had a horrible stomach ache and was sick and ended up throwing up. Being around him and being nice to him makes me physically ill even though he has been out for over a year.

At the beginning of this post, I mentioned a question that is looming even bigger. The question is: What in the world was I thinking? What did I see in him? How in the heck did I put up with THAT for almost 20 years?

Another thought that I wanted to throw out there and possibly get some feedback on. . .Is it common for things that I once thought were kind of cute I now see as annoying and problematic? I am also thinking that some of that stuff was okay for somebody in their 20s but not cool for somebody that is 40something with 4 kids and a bunch of responsibilities. So, I guess I may be answering my own questions. I think I grew up and he didn't.

[babyoctopus]

Hi there Vortex-
I really enjoy reading your posts.

I have been separated from udbph since November. We have 3 kids, married 23 years. In the process of selling house. He left when I asked, after a big fight that dragged in the kids, and was gone until Feb, but I stupidly let him come back for a week (he tricked me- "only a week I have no where to stay" and now he refuses to leave until house is sold. I have no $$ to move until house sells.

He sleeps in the guest room. It is so awkward.

When he was gone, I was full of energy, the house was sparkling clean, I was packing and planning my future. Now that he's back, I am exhausted, he's slovenly messes are taking over again, and I can't think straight. Yesterday I cried my eyes out thinking he is right, it is MY fault, he is going to be successful after we split and I'll be left with nothing. I will die poor and unloved and he'll find someone and she will get what I should have. Its sick the thoughts in my head!

He too LOVES the sound of his own voice. Never listens, just waits to talk, Expert on everything. I believe the word is: BORE.

If I ask him to do something, he will NEVER do it- I have to word it in a way that he decides to do it- absolutely exhausting.

He is the laziest man on the planet. He makes one phone call and then has to rest for the remainder of the day. I work 8-9 hour days and pay all the utility bills. He is supposed to be paying the mortgage but we are 4-5 months behind! I'm freaking out and he is cool as a cucumber- enjoying his walks, seeing friends on weekends, buying artisinal beer.

I believe His mother- who he was staying with - is an accomplice to all this. He can do no wrong. She saw what he put me through all those years, emotionally abusing me, yet blames me for wanting to divorce him. I told her point blank- take him back, please- but she won't. Its all a big set up.

Anyway, please pray for me- that my home sells soon so I can get away from him. Next paycheck I will be able to see my lawyer and draw up papers.

Bless you and thanks for your posts!

[AwakenedOne]

"What sorts of things become more clear with time?"

... .A 4 yr marriage filled with great highs and horrible lows... .

When I now play the relationship film back in my mind and zoom in on parts much becomes clearer.  I now see how she behaved robot like at times and such as a person missing an identity. Strange comments at the time only showed the greater magnitude of the strangeness after the fact.

Looking back the relationship core wasn't even real. Amazingly I thought she loved me till she deserted.

[Aesir]

I saw that no matter what I did I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't no win situation.

[Dutched]

Vortex
Well I am several yrs. out now of 30+ yrs. and although I knew of BPD a view yrs. before the end (and exw refusing treatment) many, many things have become very clear to me.

Although loved (before devaluation and severe outbursts sets in, etc. ) by exw (up to a certain level that is) one is for ‘them’ a necessity in order to feel loved, to sustain an image of a loving mother and respected wife.

More to feel and be as a self, full of confident behind a mask covering her unstable and half self.
So when the audience was gone, they seas to exist.

I lived with a woman (and later a family) who’s love, image, strong values, actions, vow, trust and the drive to be a good father/husband only were just a mirror of what I was.
Unconsciously (as ‘tasks’ in a r/s are shared… ) however more and more emotional draining, as I was the one that was needed for guidance, for empathy for … well for what not.

As you told in several topics, as many others told, we lived with a child in a mature body.
One that was mature, social correct, holding a job, walked besides me, etc. but was emotional a child.

The devastating truth is that we loved that whole package.
The vow (at least for me), kids involved, the will to make it work and …to grow old together as it was most of the time ‘normal’.  Lets say 85% and 15% abnormal.

You gave some examples, let me add some.
A big age gap was so unacceptable; hooked a bloke 10 – 15 yrs. older ( a great grandfather already)
Disgusting being in a 3rd 4th 5th etc r/s, ‘that is NO love!’, as exw said;
 Well seems exw is his 4th and last ‘soul mate’ for his old days now.       
Tattoos? Totally disgusting… a guy full with it.  A mr. Onslow  (from a UK tv-series )
She? Once sportive elegant cloths. Now mirroring, sneakers and sandals. Cloths, cheap, bad cut. Attending on a formal(!) dressed wedding in a mini(!) dress with a top, a woman mid 50.
Her hair? Years and years more or less the same good looking and taken care for.
Since? Different colours, longer, short, too short and recently of the front page of a local paper (with a group) the image was complete: swallow longer hair, seemingly days not cared for.
An expression of her instability, looking for, not finding it… again.

Some time ago I reacted in a topic (after seeing that exw). I really realised that for years I have walked (and lived)  with some one beside me that was a kind of image of me.
A woman, like the kids, to be guided, something as looking up to father as for a 4 yr old is a hero.

Seeing her and her mr Onlsow ‘they’ needs to be one with whomever she feels an attachment with, no matter who it is.

Maybe as a bit of sarcasm:
 Many times exw expressed her emotional instability as ‘I want something else’
Asking her: ‘what do you mean by something else as I don’t understand it?’
Answer:  ‘I don’t know, JUST something else!” 
  Seems she got her ‘something else’

[roberto516]

Maybe as a bit of sarcasm:
 Many times exw expressed her emotional instability as ‘I want something else’
Asking her: ‘what do you mean by something else as I don’t understand it?’
Answer:  ‘I don’t know, JUST something else!” 
  Seems she got her ‘something else’

I can't with the deja vu. Both times she left me this is what she said. "We want different things" I asked what she wanted "I don't know". It's so odd that a personality disorder really does exhibit itself similar across all people. I just had to comment. It's such a recurring theme. The "I don't know answer." All she knew was rage. But always at me or someone else she couldnt control.

[AustenJ]

What becomes more clear for me over time is that her behavior doesn't change... .she may be faster or slower with her destruction, but it ALWAYS manifests, always. This understanding has helped me heal from the toxicity of pwBPD.

Because the r/s is so intense, we nons feel like this is the one, the most special relationship of all time... .but with time we can put this in more perspective: the fact of the matter is that we are no more special to pwBPD than their dozens of victims before us nor the dozens of victims that will come after us. They eventually treat everyone the same---they are equal opportunity victimizers.

It's ironic that we put so much time, effort, and money into healing from these r/s, yet so many of our exes refuse to or are unable to do that for them to heal.

[antelope]

it became clear that the person I met was absolutely nothing like the person I slammed the door on 3 years later... .in fact, the person I met was gone by the end of the first year... .

it also became clear that my tolerance of so much chaos and inconsistent behavior was evident of my VERY big, unresolved personal issues... .staying with her practically drove me to madness... .

answering the question of 'why did we stay?' is the essence of closure from the relationship, and one of the most fundamentally crucial aspects of our own lives that needs repair and closure... .

looking back, I spent three years living with a complete stranger... .utter madness! 

[Turkish]

This sounds familiar in that beyond the r/s, my acceptance and tolerance of certain behaviors is gone.  This is the interesting thing to me: she didn't change much,  but my feelings did, as did my tolerance for such behaviors.  I find that being stuck in "frustrated mode" while perhaps being internally validating in the short term,  yields little fruit long term. 

Exploring why we feel how we do now may be more helpful.

[vortex of confusion]

Exploring why we feel how we do now may be more helpful.

I think part of what has become more clear is why I feel the way I do.

I just got home from taking a trip across the country with 4 kids by myself. I drove the entire way, by myself with the kids as my copilots.

When ex was around, there is no way on God's green earth that I could have done anything like that. He would have insisted on going with us and would have then been a party pooper. It became so obvious why I feel so icky about him and have for a long time. I am finally able to see his texts and ignore them because he doesn't have much of a space in my life. I am finally able to tell him stuff like, Hey, I am busy with the kids. I don't have the time or patience to deal with you.

I don't have the time or patience for him because I have 4 kids. I think you are right about him not really changing much. He hasn't. I think that I am the one that changed. I lost the ability to take care of him. I lost patience with him. I needed help and he wasn't there for me or for the kids. He changed because I lost the ability to be his caretaker. It has become very clear to me that I would have had to continue to care for him in order for the relationship to work.

[Dutched]

Very nice put Vortex.
May I give it a more positive twist of what became clear to me?

With age, in a r/s, having kids and life itself people change, better make people grow, however it was not the case for the ex.
That one remain stuck in their emotional world as still of today.

Now, after this ‘experience’… and older, wiser, etc. I changed more and more back into ME, MYSELF and I, the real person I am.
One with boundaries, values, creative, having good and interesting talks and yes even being witty.
For the sake of peace, holding a family together for many yrs, love, commitment and vow, I lost part of me.
Lost a part which I realised several yrs. before the end by talking to a Psychologist.
I became aware of me and the situation I was in.

For me, and similar as what you describe, ex ‘changed’ as I then refused (yes, I refused) caretaking many of what I did for yrs.
That was not evolution, but revolution at that period.

As with you, ex had to do it by herself, then failed, stumbled, crawled.
Not taking over is very hard to see with the one you love.
Instead ‘just’ being empathic and loving, giving advise but without interfering and to let it run her own course.
Then also, besides the techniques I could apply (SET JADE), her outbursts minimised to once a year.

More important a relative peace was restored (also for kids) and my inner peace.
Also the period, despite I wanted to grow old together…, I certainly was aware that I needed to hold a painful (safe) distance from the one I loved so deeply.
Meaning also better taking care of myself, but I a way also more lonely in that r/s

Long story short, I guess at a certain point you became aware of YOU again.
And now being out for a time, FOG also gone, as I, day by day YOU became YOU again.

[vortex of confusion]

That one remain stuck in their emotional world as still of today.

Good point! I have often said that I grew up and he didn't. He still seems stuck being the person he was when we met.

I changed more and more back into ME, MYSELF and I, the real person I am.
One with boundaries, values, creative, having good and interesting talks and yes even being witty.

I can relate to this as well. I know that one of the most powerful feelings has been to be able to just be and joke and be myself without worrying about somebody taking it the wrong way. By nature, I am a bit of a smart alleck. I had to curtail that and make myself smaller and smaller because it seemed like he didn't know if I was joking or being serious. That was difficult for me because even my kids can detect when I am serious and when I am not. Spending 5 days with my kids and my best friend and her kid was so unbelievably amazing. It reminded me of who I am and what is important to me.

For the sake of peace, holding a family together for many yrs, love, commitment and vow, I lost part of me.
Lost a part which I realised several yrs. before the end by talking to a Psychologist.
I became aware of me and the situation I was in.

I had been aware that I was losing pieces of myself bit by bit. I tried to find all sorts of ways to hold on. It didn't work. All I could do was make myself smaller and smaller.

For me, and similar as what you describe, ex ‘changed’ as I then refused (yes, I refused) caretaking many of what I did for yrs.
That was not evolution, but revolution at that period.

I chuckled at this because I have said that I started exhibiting BPD-like behaviors because I felt like I was fighting for myself and my kids. I stopped caring about the relationship and started caring more about myself and my kids. One thing about me is that I will work with somebody up to a certain point. Once I reach that point where I feel backed into a corner, I will come out fighting and I will win. I know that when I win, I win with dignity. I am not going to resort to the crap that some people do. That isn't my style.

Also the period, despite I wanted to grow old together…, I certainly was aware that I needed to hold a painful (safe) distance from the one I loved so deeply.

At some point, the thought of growing old with ex disgusted me. I found some poetry that I wrote 3 or 4 years ago and it was full of angst over the fact that I knew I was done and just didn't know what to do about it.

[vortex of confusion]

I was thinking about starting a new thread but decided to post on this one instead because I feel like I am peeling back little layers and seeing things more clearly the more time passes. 

Plus, I needed to vent a bit. The vehicle that ex is driving is in my name and it needed the registration renewed. I had the stuff to do it and told him that I would take care of it. He took that to mean that I would go to the courthouse AND pay for it. I should have been more clear that I would take care of it by going to the courthouse IF he gave me the money. That was my mistake for not being more clear.

I did bring up him giving me part of the money to do it. He said he didn't have enough. That was all fine and good. Where I got a bit irritated is when he started showing me a picture of some new music gear that he purchased. Since he was visiting the kids, I smiled and nodded. I chose to bring it up the next day. I told him that I thought it was crap that he couldn't afford to pay for the registration for his vehicle yet he could afford a musical toy that cost close to double what the registration cost.

That led to him being upset that I brought it up over 24 hours later. I deliberately didn't bring it up when he was visiting the kids. I didn't want to get into any kind of disagreement and ruin his visit with the kids. Then he gives me some crap about how he got his toy when he had money. Um, the registration was NOT an unexpected expense. Trying to tell him that is pointless because he gets pissy and says stuff like, ":)o you want me to sell it and give you the money?" Um, I don't want to tell him what to do. I think I have reason to be irritated that he is crying to me that he doesn't have the money for groceries or the registration for his car yet has a new guitar toy.

However, I do need to do a better job of setting boundaries and telling him that I will NOT give him money or cover stuff when he is short. It kind of baffles me because he makes more money than I do. He is giving me money to support the kids yet runs short a lot and doesn't seem to have much left over. I think he is trying to give me bigger amounts than he should so that he can tell people that he is giving me all of his money. Then, he turns around and wants/needs my help. A lot of times, I do it. I need to stop that because all I am doing is setting myself up for a situation where he his giving me too much so he can be the good guy and I am the evil money grubbing woman.

This whole thing makes it really clear why I was unable to do much when he was around. The kids and I have managed to do quite a bit with very little. I have no idea how or where he was spending money when he lived with us. Now, he is whining about how difficult it is to keep up with finances and keep the bills paid. I can't do much other than silently laugh. I have managed our finances for years without much input from him. Several years back, I had to get pretty insistent that he get more involved with the finances. Ugh, it seems like he is still trying to get me to tell him what to do so he can avoid taking responsibility for himself.

[Sunfl0wer]

Why not simply sign the title over to him?
Let him handle it or not handle it as he likes.
Effectively remove yourself from the equation.

[vortex of confusion]

Why not simply sign the title over to him?
Let him handle it or not handle it as he likes.
Effectively remove yourself from the equation.

Hadn't gotten around to it. Trying to unravel 20 years of life together when there are 4 kids involved isn't an overnight process.

I brought it up more as another point of clarity for me. I spent a lot of time frustrated because I would have to plan ahead and take his impulsiveness into account when planning things. I know that the simple answer is to remove myself from the equation. He and I still have 4 kids together. That isn't going to change any time soon.

[butterflylove]

I saw that no matter what I did I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't no win situation.

100% me too. Pretty torturous, when all you are doing is desperately trying to help your loved one.

[Sunfl0wer]

I brought it up more as another point of clarity for me. I spent a lot of time frustrated because... .

Just saying cause it sounds like the vehicle can become a vehicle for further engagement and further frustrations.  I guess you gotta choose when detaching from his responsibilities is more trouble to you or less.

[vortex of confusion]

I guess you gotta choose when detaching from his responsibilities is more trouble to you or less.

Very true. I have become very practical with regards to what I will or won't do. There are times when I make a choice to do something even though it leads to frustration. Honestly, I find all of it frustrating. It has been over a year and there are days when I still get hit with waves of grief for no apparent reason.

There are things that I have done for years and I have to stop and think about NOT doing them. At times, I am more frustrated with myself than I am him. My default is to say yes and be helpful. He knows this about me and uses it to his advantage.

He offered to bring me dinner because he works down the road from me. I had to think about it and say NO.