Perhaps an interesting boundary

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So... .we have a bed in our house that has somehow become a particular target for kids that want to spill, barf, pee or any combination of weird fluids that kids can come up with.

My wife insisted that this expensive waterproof zippered cover was the answer to all our problems so we go it.  From my point of view... .this led to a feeling of invincibility and even more fluids were aimed at the mattress.

The cover has been on and off more times than I can count to be washed.  And now it's apparently no longer waterproof.

So... .the inevitable conversation comes up about how to fix this.   My wife wants to get another one and I told her that I fully supported that, yet there were some things "in addition" that I wanted to do and get. 

I don't want to continue doing the same thing, that we both agree isn't working, and expecting a different result.  I even allowed that our next idea may not work either, but at least we were trying to get a better result.

So... .I start offering specifics and asking some questions about waterproof covers that "lay on top" instead of being zippered covers.  3 different times she cut me off and over-talked and claimed she didn't.   I did poke the bear a bit by asking her to "reflect back what I said"... .and after long pauses she offered up a guess... .that was wrong.

So... .she made a speech about how much experience she had in these matters.  I agreed, said I trusted her and asked her to handle this issue.  I asked her if she would handle it and got a non answer.

I got up to leave the room and let her know that my help is contingent upon a two way conversation where we both focused on understanding each other.  I left the room.

She hurled some words at me on the way out that sound like "and that's loving your wife... ." but in all honesty, I didn't hear them clearly... .although I am sure of the "gist of it".

Right now there is a washed mattress cover, waterproof zippered cover (that's not waterproof anymore), and other associated stuff to put back on the mattress.  I have no idea how that is going to be accomplished without my help.

I can see how a quick view of this I can look like an azz that doesn't want to help my wife.  I've been there done that and I've been convinced for a while that this method is a failure. 

Thoughts?

"I trust you and your 20 years experience can solve this problem.  With conversation, I'm available to help."

Is something like that going to work if it comes up again.

FF

[formflier]

So... .we have a bed in our house that has somehow become a particular target for kids that want to spill, barf, pee or any combination of weird fluids that kids can come up with.

My wife insisted that this expensive waterproof zippered cover was the answer to all our problems so we go it.  From my point of view... .this led to a feeling of invincibility and even more fluids were aimed at the mattress.

The cover has been on and off more times than I can count to be washed.  And now it's apparently no longer waterproof.

So... .the inevitable conversation comes up about how to fix this.   My wife wants to get another one and I told her that I fully supported that, yet there were some things "in addition" that I wanted to do and get. 

I don't want to continue doing the same thing, that we both agree isn't working, and expecting a different result.  I even allowed that our next idea may not work either, but at least we were trying to get a better result.

So... .I start offering specifics and asking some questions about waterproof covers that "lay on top" instead of being zippered covers.  3 different times she cut me off and over-talked and claimed she didn't.   I did poke the bear a bit by asking her to "reflect back what I said"... .and after long pauses she offered up a guess... .that was wrong.

So... .she made a speech about how much experience she had in these matters.  I agreed, said I trusted her and asked her to handle this issue.  I asked her if she would handle it and got a non answer.

I got up to leave the room and let her know that my help is contingent upon a two way conversation where we both focused on understanding each other.  I left the room.

She hurled some words at me on the way out that sound like "and that's loving your wife... ." but in all honesty, I didn't hear them clearly... .although I am sure of the "gist of it".

Right now there is a washed mattress cover, waterproof zippered cover (that's not waterproof anymore), and other associated stuff to put back on the mattress.  I have no idea how that is going to be accomplished without my help.

I can see how a quick view of this I can look like an azz that doesn't want to help my wife.  I've been there done that and I've been convinced for a while that this method is a failure. 

Thoughts?

"I trust you and your 20 years experience can solve this problem.  With conversation, I'm available to help."

Is something like that going to work if it comes up again.

FF

[formflier]

Trying to think how to express this as a value... .that I've turned into a boundary.

"My help comes with a respectful conversation."

with

"If you choose otherwise, I trust you to handle the matter" as my attitude going forward if she chooses not to listen.

of course, if she listens... .problem solving mode in full swing.

This was recent conversation, so... likely I'm overthinking this... .


FF

[Notwendy]

FF- with several issues I try to focus on the big ones. Sometimes I decide the cost/ benefit of the battle.

My kids are past the barfing and pee stage, but I did consider how to deal with that. On one hand I wanted to teach them respect for furniture. On the other hand I didn't want to be covering things, protecting things and worrying about valuable things at a stage where they didn't have great control over their bodies.
The couches we had were from a thrift store. We didn't get a nice one until they were older.

Mattresses are expensive. I have the zipper covers on the beds. You are correct- it takes more than one person to help put them on.  You can choose to help or she can get someone to help her. For me, I didn't want to deal with taking them on and off all the time. I have waterproof mattress pads that lay on the bed- on top of the cover. Those are easy to take off and wash. Yes they wear out but can be replaced. If bed wetting is frequent I have had two waterproof covers on. This way the zipper one doesn't have to come off.

I invest in a good quality zipper cover. The additional pads are inexpensive and can be replaced as needed. If your wife agrees to a second (or third) cover you won't have to deal with washing the zipper one frequently.

[formflier]

  If bed wetting is frequent I have had two waterproof covers on. This way the zipper one doesn't have to come off.

I invest in a good quality zipper cover. The additional pads are inexpensive and can be replaced as needed. If your wife agrees to a second (or third) cover you won't have to deal with washing the zipper one frequently.

This is the gist of my idea... .which I was not able to convey after three attempts were squashed with overtalk.

I didn't yell or "react"... .although I did poke the bear a bit by asking her to "reflect back to me" my idea... .  She claims she didn't overtalk... .I didn't debate it.

Right now she is complaining about how hard it is to get around in that room, because of the mattress being in the way.

I don't plan to further engage on the issue unless she brings it up. 

If kids ask I'll let them know "mommy has the lead on that issue"

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

This could also be a drama triangle set up. If there is a situation where she "needs help" ie being rescued, then the zipper cover achieves that. The other cover eliminates the issue. This may be why she rejects it.

Sometimes it isn't the issue but the dynamics behind it. It is a relatively simple solution. Go to Walmart, buy a $25 top cover and be done with it. It becomes complicated when the drama behind the issue is more desirable than the solution.

I posted on the other board about a situation with my widowed mother. Since my father passed away, she has been lamenting about going through his belongings and deciding what to do with them. The solution is simple. We kids were willing to come over and sort the belongings. But she didn't like that idea. So then we offered to just take them, and sort them at our homes. She didn't like that either. So now she is complaining that nobody helped her. If she really just wanted help with his belongings, it would have been done.

In contrast to my H's family. They aren't perfect, there is some drama, but when my FIL passed away, my MIL allowed her kids to take care of his things, each got to choose items that were sentimental to them. She got the help she wanted and her children are happy to have things that were meaningful to them. Win-win.

The mattress cover issue with you and your wife isn't win-win. It's drama. I am in a similar situation with these covers. I can not put the zipper pad on without help. So, I solve my own problem with the inexpensive second cover. That way, I don't have to ask anyone for help and the bed stays dry. I didn't even ask my H about it. ( we don't have to negotiate over an inexpensive purchase that is needed). It is my problem that I can't lift the mattress and I found my own solution. Win-Win.

If my mother didn't like the solutions we offered her, she could have solved her own issue by hiring people to help her sort and move things. She could have designated something for the kids, or just disposed of the items. But she didn't choose a solution to the issues she is complaining about. 

FF, you are a logical guy, and logic makes sense. I also use logic to solve a dilemma. The solutions I offered my mother were logical. The solution to the bed cover issue is logical. But when a clear, uncomplicated, and logical solution is rejected and the issue becomes an emotional drama- the drama behind it is a likely reason for that.

[formflier]

Notwendy... .thank you so much for clarifying things... .logically.

Please forgive my overthinking this... .sometimes when you are in the middle of it... .I need to be helped along.

So... .issues

right now the room is a mess... .with a mattress laying in the middle of it... .all the covers off.

I've left it to my wife to solve... .although she didn't acknowledge that... .I can't do this myself until kids get home from school... .so... .do I just go ahead and solve this today.

What do I do if my wife starts "undoing" the solved issue... .as in ripping off the covers... .throwing away the cover I bought... ."accidentally" ruining it... .etc etc   

In other words... .me solving this will inflame the drama (at least on her part).  In all likelihood.

it should be totally doable for me to have the cover here and ready for when the help I needs gets home.

Thoughts?

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

(I like Notwendys ideas)
Don't dress the bed without announcing it to her first.

Text her:got stuff we needed, could use your help dressing bed when you get home.  Will you be able to help, or shall I get x kid to help?

Let her discover this at work, let her txt bomb you from a distance dysregulating.
Cause if she discovers it after you dress the bed, she will not have let off a dysregulatiin via phone... .and may do it at house with kids present.

[Notwendy]

Personally - if it were me- I'd leave it for her to solve. If she asks for help with picking up the mattress then help. Yes it's a mess but it's her mess.

These things to me are no win situations. IMHO the prize is victim position and she gets that either way. Help her- she will feel like a victim. Don't help and you're an ogre. She's going to have a reason to pitch a fit either way.

Sometimes I think the fit is the prize. Dysregulation can clear the system of all those bad feelings. She may feel better afterwards.

I know the logical goal is a win win solution but I think it is possible that the payoff for the drama is greater for them. For us I think it is not trying to control these fits but getting to a point where they don't affect us.

[formflier]

Personally - if it were me- I'd leave it for her to solve. 

These things to me are no win situations.

IMHO the prize is victim position 

  For us I think it is not trying to control these fits but getting to a point where they don't affect us.

Thank you... .this is really helpful. 

I'm still not the best at sorting out the drama triangle (when I'm in it)... .and even sometimes when I'm just an observer.

But I can see this... .it makes sense.

I do see wisdom in texting her ahead of time if I was going to "pre-empt" her... .but I'm not going to do that.

I spoke clearly and succinctly last night... .99% sure she heard me.  If she wanted to understand... she could clarify. 

Anyway... .if I get to the store... .I'll likely pick up the supplies needed and have them stored out of the way somewhere... .just in case.

FF

[Notwendy]

Now I always look for the triangle when there is a problem and a simple solution and somehow it becomes complicated.

[flourdust]

There are some details missing from your story. Whose bed is this? Which kid doesn't have a place to sleep now because mommy and daddy are in a power struggle?

[formflier]

There are some details missing from your story. Whose bed is this? Which kid doesn't have a place to sleep now because mommy and daddy are in a power struggle?

it is the bottom bunk in "the girls room".  Actually a queen sized mattress.  So... .usually there is one or two girls in it.  If you remember getting people to sleep in their own beds is an issue in our house.  This is the bed that my wife often retreats to... for whatever reason.

In other words... .the flexible sleeping arrangements are nothing new... .the mattress in the middle of the room is a pain in the butt... .for those that go in and out.  3 girls.

Hope this clarifies a muddy situation... .

FF

[Fian]

I don't think the problem is the mattress.  The problem is that you can't have a discussion without your wife interrupting you.  It sounds like you need a talking stick.  I believe you said you tried it before and your wife hated it.  It might be worthwhile trying again.  Maybe you only bring it out when one party is feeling like they aren't being listened to.  If she doesn't like the stick, then she needs to make sure she listens so that the stick isn't necessary.

[formflier]

 
Correct... it's not the mattress.

Update... a trip to wal mart and I have the supplies needed... .should I be part of the solution to this in the future.

I've never officially bought a "talking stick"  but would designate an object as such.  She's read the article about it and we've had several counselors explain it... .yeah... she hates it.

Supposebly the only noise she is allowed to make is clarifying questions until I give up the stick (or vice versa). 

We've never done it that well... .but at times she has at least kept her mouth closed while I talked.  Questionable if her ears were open... .

FF

[Fian]

So since the issue isn't the mattress, I would encourage you to try and discuss it with her again.  Your approach of "since you won't let me speak, I am going to make you own it", I think will cause more harm than good.  She can't be happy with how the conversation went either.  Right now you are both frustrated, and then you will take it up another notch by just doing it without consulting her.

Have you tried having a conversation with her that went something like this.  "I was frustrated with the way our conversation went yesterday.  I imagine that you aren't happy with it either.  I feel that you weren't giving me a chance to speak, and when I did speak you weren't listening.  Can we try having this conversation again?  I would like to solve this together with you."

[Fian]

You might be thinking, "Having a second conversation on a mattress isn't worth the effort.  It is easier just to fix the mattress and move on."  I would like to share a story from my life on why I think it is important.

A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I went out to dinner together.  She was thinking of it as a big deal and even got dressed up a little bit for it.  I was just thinking of it as a more casual thing - going out to eat together isn't that uncommon, and we weren't going any place nice (my wife likes only a few restaurants that are fully organic for health reasons).  Anyway, the night was painful.  We both wanted nothing more than to have a nice time together.  And yet we seemed to get into minor arguments about nothing, she would get offended about minor things, and my irritation with her was growing as well.  It finally boiled down to this.  She didn't bring a key to her sister's so that we could go feed her cats.  So we had to go back home to get the keys.  One person needed to get out of the car to grab the keys and then we can both drive together to feed the cats.  She wanted me to go.  I was unwilling to go and hinted that feeding the cats was something that she had agreed to do, not me, and I was already helping her by driving her to her sister's.  She grabbed the keys and let's just say the drive to her sister's was icy.  Get home, and she cancels our big plans for the next day together.

As fights go, it really isn't that big of one.  They weren't big issues, and frankly neither one of us comes out of it looking good.  Yet, it was a big deal to both of us.  We were both very discouraged about our relationship.  If we can't even have a simple meal together, what does that say about the future of our marriage?

My wife tried to talk to me the next day, and to be honest the talk didn't go well.  But we had a follow up talk 15 minutes later, and I think in that case we were able to share our frustrations together.  Even though we weren't happy with how the other behaved, there is a shared bonding in that we are both frustrated with the marriage, imo.  We also shared why we were both unwilling to get the keys, and while I don't think we convinced each other of the righteousness of our reasoning, it still helps to understand what the other person was thinking, as it makes them less of a monster that just says no.

[formflier]

Can I hijack my own thread?  I've never even thought of this before... .   

OK... .I've hijacked myself... .

Why wouldn't she got get the keys to do something that she agreed to do?

FF

[Fian]

Can I hijack my own thread?  I've never even thought of this before... .   

OK... .I've hijacked myself... .

Why wouldn't she got get the keys to do something that she agreed to do?

FF

Well, she gave me 2 reasons.  One, she later told me she was feeling really tired, and while her body is doing better, she is not 100%.  Two, on a date she thought as a gentleman I should get the keys for her.

[formflier]

   as a gentleman I should  .

Should is  loaded word in most circumstances... .add in BPDish stuff and it's nuclear... .

FF

[formflier]

I feel completely silly for continuing to bring up the "pee pad" issue. 

The room now looks like a nuclear bomb went off in it... .no efforts to put things back together.  I didn't get to talk any with my wife about it last night. 

She seemed pre-occupied with watching TV and "checking out" for most of the evening.

I still don't think I should just "fix it". 

I do think I should address it with her directly this evening.  Perhaps ask her if she would like me to "handle it". 

No reason to debate the conversation of a few nights ago... .I have no interest in trying yet again to explain my desires or point of view (and in the process pitch her a fast ball to ignore or overtalk)

perhaps... ."Would you like me to take care of putting the bed back together in the girls room?"

or

same thing but add "or would you like to continue to care for that?"

the "continue" part could be a bit loaded... .but... .she's had it... .she's got it... .and I've said I trust that she can find a solution.

Thoughts?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

You've got two issues here: Mattress problems, and Dysregulation/dysfunction by your wife (which appeared to be triggered by the mattress and may still have some relationship to it at this point.)

The mattress: This is a practical thing, and you know how to do practical things. I see two reasonable paths... .

You can clean things up and fix things yourself. That works.
You can wait for her to clean up and fix things. That works too. (Might take a long time 'tho)

The dysregulation: You are working yourself up, and losing sight of the tools, perhaps because you are mixing this up with the mattress issues... .

I still don't think I should just "fix it".  

I do think I should address it with her directly this evening.  Perhaps ask her if she would like me to "handle it".  

No reason to debate the conversation of a few nights ago... .I have no interest in trying yet again to explain my desires or point of view (and in the process pitch her a fast ball to ignore or overtalk)

perhaps... ."Would you like me to take care of putting the bed back together in the girls room?"

She's going to be invalidated if you ask her to do anything about it, gently, or otherwise. She might do it and give you the cold shoulder. She might blow up. Still, I think you know she won't respond well.

You've chosen to do your best to make this r/s work as well as it can, to maintain a stable household for your children.

Don't try to manage her or parent her. Don't try to get her to stop bad behavior. If what she's doing (or not doing) is bad enough to cross your threshold, take action to fix it / protect your children. If it isn't that bad, live with it and don't make anything else worse.

You are obviously struggling with this... .can you elaborate a bit more on the statement: "I still don't think I should just fix it." You've got some inner voice or emotions screaming about this issue, pushing you to take action.

[formflier]

You are obviously struggling with this... .can you elaborate a bit more on the statement: "I still don't think I should just fix it." You've got some inner voice or emotions screaming about this issue, pushing you to take action.

Good question... .identify the struggle or some internal turmoil.

Big picture:  Probably searching in vain for the "right answer" so that I don't get blamed. 

I'm going to get blamed... .I need to get over that and move along.  My job is to not accept blame that I didn't "really earn".

I've spoken clearly and let her know I agree with her analysis... .and support her.  I offered that I was interested in "additional things"... .she was not interested in listening.

I can want something different all day long... .but the RA of the situation is she is not interested in my thoughts on this issue... .and I'm ok leaving it up to her.

If I say I'm ok with that... .I need to be ok with that.  I'm not ok with getting blamed when I don't "deserve" it... .but whether or not I get blamed is not my choice.  Whether or not I accept the blame is.

Therefore... .I need to make sure my words and actions match... .I've trusted her with it... .so let it go.  If she wants help... she can ask.

How is that for me looking at my situation and analyzing?

FF

[BeagleGirl]

I like the shorter offer to take care of it. Adding the part about "or would you like to continue with it" could be seen as taking a genuine offer to take something off her plate to a passive aggressive place.

I'm glad you posted about the pee pad issue. It's a great example of how fully the BPD dysfunction can permeate a relationship. It's like urine soaking through the formerly waterproof boundaries of your life.