Are PwBPD capable of feeling guilt?

[artfuldodger]

My ExwBPD like most PwBPD left me out of the blue, went onto marry someone behind my back and then chose to break the news to me through his family.

While he displayed all the classic symptoms a PwBPD tends to exhibit throughout the five years we were together, he seems to have acted very considerate after he ended things between us.

For example,

- He never uttered mean words to me, not at least in my face.

- He said, he didn't have the courage to face me.

- He wrote me mails still professing his love for me, that he can't love anyone else and that he will always be around for me.

- He made sure his mother spoke to me, to check on me.

- He never rubbed his married life in my face. He closed down his accounts on various social media platforms and when he resurfaced a few years later, there's nothing that suggests he's married. He has his wife on his friends list but there's not a single picture of them or their children.

- His colleague told me he cried at his wedding and still spoke of me even after he had his first child. 

Not only this but even throughout the course of our relationship, he acknowledged he had not been fair to me, he had damaged me and sometimes he begged me to not hate him, he was messed up in his head. It was this honesty that, in spite of the pain I went through on daily basis,  made me realise he was suffering and encouraged me to stick by his side.

Even today, these very things stop me from hating him. In spite of everything that I have suffered in the aftermath of our break up, I still believe he has elements of good about him. Nevertheless, I'll have to admit, at times, I do feel I am wrong in thinking on those lines. Perhaps, it was all a ploy, his desperate bid to still portray himself a helpless victim in the eyes of everyone around him (but then I also feel can someone really go to these lengths to maintain a facade for a person who no longer is a part of their life?).

To be honest, I don't know, I feel so confused. I don't trust my own instincts.

[ShadowA]

Mine did, only when she wanted me back.  But the pattern would continue; which means she didn't learn from her mistake. I also didn't learn either because I kept allowing the cycle to repeat.

[artfuldodger]

Mine did, only when she wanted me back.  But the pattern would continue; which means she didn't learn from her mistake. I also didn't learn either because I kept allowing the cycle to repeat.

Barring my last mail where I wished my Ex well in life, I have maintained a strict NC since the day I was told of his marriage. I have never reached out to him nor have I responded to his last mail.

I relented everytime when I was on the verge of leaving when we were together, but I never looked back once he left.

[forgetthepast]

Artfuldodger,

It is clear the confusion you feel is all too real.  While I'm sure your ex has good qualities, most people do, it also seems like he has far too many interpersonal issues which would make him an unsuitable partner for you.

It sounds like you stood by him which is admirable.  You are not and should not be a whipping post for his emotions and actions, however.

Relationships are not supposed to be about confusion.  We should know and understand our partners, what they want, what they need, and how that relates to our own wants and needs and what we seek from our partners.  Getting there can be difficult, but if there is dialogue about what we want and what our partner wants, it can be a foundation to build upon.

The no contact is good.  I hope that you keep this up and that this is a learning process which helps you move on so that you can understand yourself better.  Remember that this is about you, not him.  Ultimately focusing on yourself, not the confusion and pain he has caused will set you free.  These are all decisions that you must make.  From my experience, letting go of the confusion and pain and focusing on your own well being and looking to the future, what you want to accomplish as you move forward, will most likely be the most beneficial route to take in this journey.

Posting on the board and asking questions is good.  It releases pent up anger, confusion, and other emotions.  Reading about how others dealt with similar situations is also good, it helps one relate and gives validation that we have suffered a painful loss.

Be kind and gentle with yourself and keep focusing on the bright future ahead!

[Infern0]

Yes but they can turn it off by dissociating from it.

Like most other feelings with them.

[happendtome]

Artfuldodger, not all are bad completely, even if we like to think that way. Its so complex. I question about myself too, not only about my ex. So theres two always, not only one. However, i know it didnt work with me and thats the main thing what i have to acknowledge. Life is about letting go and starting all over.

[ArtistGuy70]

No, I don't believe they do. They experience shame, not guilt (in the traditional sense like we do). If they had true guilt about their actions, they would try not to repeat them or make changes. Instead they feel shame. They know what they do. But, they soon justify their behaviors.

[happendtome]

Yes, Artistguy70, i suppose i have to agree with you. I dont have answers, i like to have answers, but really, i get lost every time if i think about it. I think my ex will never contact me again. But i have no idea what she is thinking. Was i good, was i bad? I mean what does she tell to others in the future. I know nothing. She had her good persons and bad persons in her life. Where am i?

[artfuldodger]

It is clear the confusion you feel is all too real.  While I'm sure your ex has good qualities, most people do, it also seems like he has far too many interpersonal issues which would make him an unsuitable partner for you.

Yes but they can turn it off by dissociating from it.

Like most other feelings with them.

Artfuldodger, not all are bad completely, even if we like to think that way. Its so complex.

This confusion is what hurts me a lot. I can deal with rejection, I am secure enough to take it on my chin but how do I deal with something that I cannot even conclusively identify. Honestly, if you will go through my posts you will realise I am dealing with a lot of unresolved feelings. At times, I am trying to assert he was a good man but there are moments when I feel how can I even attempt defending some of his actions, especially the ones after he was married. 

A week before his wedding to his fiancee he was threatening me with suicide if I left! He consummated his marriage while he wrote letters of his undying love for me! I mean, who does that? Perhaps a man who never really cared about me, his wife or our feelings. Perhaps an insensitive man who firmly believed this was all about him!

Honestly, his actions still fill me with disgust and I find his choices absolutely disrespectful both of me and his wife. I perhaps also rage at the fact that how could I love and condone someone so self-obsessed with absolutely no regard for others!

I met my Ex 6 months after I had lost my father. I still remember telling him during our worst time together that if I can survive the biggest loss of my life - my father's death, I can survive just about anything. I had told him in very clear terms that if he's done with me, he is free to leave, I won't question or complain, I'll respect his decision and let him be.

I loved him more than he could ever love me but I also respected him as an individual. The thought of us breaking up was painful but I was willing to go through it, in case, that was what he wanted.

I expected the same out of him, the same respect, but he just couldn't give me that. Instead he wallowed in self pity, threatened me with self harm and suicide, involved friends and family to make a point how he couldn't survive without me. (And all of these, after he had driven me upto the wall by behaving irrationally and inconsistently.)

I am so sick and tired of it all. I don't want to admit it but I guess I know the answers but I am not willing to believe it. By denying what I already know, I perhaps am avoiding to confront the fact that I was wrong, that I made a mistake!

P.S. I am sorry for my rants. I hate the fact that I have become so weak but please bear with me, I guess, I need to do this. I need to get this out of my system. I need to arrive at a point where I stop giving myself lame excuses for tolerating and defending my Ex's rather my actions for this long.

[vortex of confusion]

This confusion is what hurts me a lot. I can deal with rejection, I am secure enough to take it on my chin but how do I deal with something that I cannot even conclusively identify.

I can really relate to this. One day ex would tell me how much he loved me and the next day he was off chasing somebody else. It is very confusing when you want to be with somebody that sends mixed signals. With a clear cut break up, dump, rejection, you know what it is that you are grieving. When it is up in the air and you have no idea where you stand in that person's life, it is difficult to grieve because you don't even know what the heck you are grieving. The person is still in your life and still says he loves you yet is off with somebody else and it feels like all of the times that they said that everything was so great and wonderful with you was a big fat lie. If that person loved you as much as they professed, then they wouldn't be off with somebody else. They would be with you and working with you.

So, it is up to you to decide what you want and make it happen. Once you decide that, it makes it easier to grieve. I don't think ex would have ever left. I think he was going to string me along and continue to send me mixed signals as long as I allowed it to happen. It doesn't matter if he is the greatest man alive or the worst man alive. What matters is that I was allowing myself to be kept in limbo. It didn't matter what he said. He could proclaim that he loved and cared for me until the cows came home. It didn't matter because he had moved on to look for somebody better, different, I don't know. His words said one thing and his actions said another. That causes a lot of confusion and hurt because it is very easy to want to hold on to this notion that maybe there is a possibility you can be together some day. It is painful and it stinks.

[Dutched]

As it is a spectrum disorder it depends on the awareness and circumstances

In more non emotional circumstances (work, profession) there is a need and drive to change, to correct a mistake.
In circumstances where outer appearances and being praised for their accomplishments are involved (social activities, neighbourhood, etc) guilt (excuses) are made and corrected.

Shame is a primary reaction, you can’t withhold blushing, it’s a deep primary reaction.
Guilt is the ability, awareness, of turning a (shameful) mistake into learning, preventing to occur again.
In other words, learning from you mistakes.

In general however with Cluster B I experienced over and over again:
Surprised:         Why are you looking at me?
Shame:           Silence, the hurt child that feels punished
Denial:           I didn’t do it!
Justification:        Argument, an I had to do it!
Blame shifting:       You have no right to say! (if you didn’t noticed… I got away with it…)
Changing facts:       You are the cause! (that I feel miserable; you can’t be trusted;
Memory:               Dissociative, feelings became facts.

You can’t fight that. You don’t realise it in those moments.
That’s confusing, until you try to understand it is not you.

It is dealing with a kid you ‘caught’ still chewing on a candy it took out of a candy can and denies it.

[doy]

Hi artfuldodger,
 
you say: This confusion is what hurts me a lot. I can deal with rejection, I am secure enough to take it on my chin but how do I deal with something that I cannot even conclusively identify.
( i don't know how to highlight)

whatever is going on with him, if it is BPD or not ... .it does not matter. it took me awhile to take that in .
you can conclusively identify what is going on and you just did. his actions are very abusive. to you and anyone involved. this is the blueprint of what would lie ahead if you would be with him.
this would be the man you have by your side walking through life with,
what do you think , that , if that would happen... you would feel? you think you would walk next to him with trust and peace? happy? respected? think about that.
no one would. not his wife , not you. not even himself.
seriously, he left you out of the blue to marry someone else ... then when he is marrying her writes you suicidal notes about his neverending love for you. asking yourself why he thinks about you is about the same as asking if a traffic light if it is green or red. it is not normal.
the times you thought he was conclusive about somebody , good or bad, he could have just been straight because of what he wanted you to think. and it is very typical BPD to leave these footprints to have you thinking you are taking the stand of either being judged 'good' or 'bad' with them.
it is not realistic and please do not fall for that. what he is thinking or saying about you says nothing about you really. it says more about him and his ideals/disappointments. really, really nothing about you.

i am sorry if i might come across as harsh, but i totally recognize this pattern and it is just... .i hope you can take peace eventually in the fact you were with somebody that crossed your boundaries and showed a lot of abusive behavior. and although you might feel powerless, you are in the driver's seat, not him. he is a loose canon, you have every say in it.  remember that.

[artfuldodger]

Thank you Vortex, Dutched and Doy for your insightful answers.   I needed this badly. I have decided I'll read all the replies I have received here, every single time, I'll feel low or stupid.

Honestly, I had written a very long post, with more details and a few questions to keep this conversation going. However, when I read my post after leaving it aside for a while, I realised I have made this entire exercise an excuse to keep my past alive. I am doing nothing except acting stupidly stubborn.

I blame things on my Ex but the truth is it is no longer him but me who's letting myself down. I need to accept the fact that for whatever reasons or compulsions, my Ex left 6.5 years ago and the only relationship I have at this point in time is with my past that is already done with. I need to accept my share of the blame. Whether out of love, compassion, concern, needs or my foolish notions, I had stayed in the relationship of my own volition. If I was taken advantage of, it was because I had allowed him to.  I should have not given into his emotional manipulation when I had finally and very firmly put my foot down after 4.5 years of constant struggle. I was in absolute right and in absolute control of my life, I had rebutted all of his excuses with facts and it had hit him in the right places, but I let it slip. I let it all go, I handed over the control back to him only to see him leave me in absolute pieces and all of it in just 6 months.

I think, it is this realisation that I let myself down when I had almost regained the control of my life that I am not able to overcome. I think, I need to change that and forgive myself.

I've decided I'll no longer try and analyse my Ex, our actions or our relationship. Whatever happened has happened and I need to leave it in the past where it truly belongs.

I am trying to put up a brave face and I am scared but I think, I have no option left.

Wish me luck! Thank you once again. Your time and your answers, indeed mean a lot.

[Dutched]

Artfuldodger

I blame things on my Ex but the truth is it is no longer him but me who's letting myself down. I need to accept the fact that for whatever reasons or compulsions, my Ex left 6.5 years ago and the only relationship I have at this point in time is with my past that is already done with. I need to accept my share of the blame. Whether out of love, compassion, concern, needs or my foolish notions, I had stayed in the relationship of my own volition. If I was taken advantage of, it was because I had allowed him to.

Don’t be so harsh for yourself. You are not on a linear path, a one way path.
It is normal to struggle which way to go, even looking back realising how from how far you came and question the choices once made!
Further don’t beat yourself up that it is ‘already’ 6.5 yrs. ago! That’s your path, and yours only.
You were used, betrayed and dumped in a cruel way, all by using your deepest trust.

As you say, you realised it was an unhealthy r/s. Most (we all I think) came to that conclusion. Wanting to make the r/s work, the commitment and vow involved.
Also, as you say, realising we allowed to. Back then it was a normal daily dynamic within the r/s, wasn’t it?
Both doing your part, gradually one taking over more and more… to comfort, to level out, to avoid.

That will be of benefit to set more boundaries in daily life too, not jumping in to help out, but thinking over and thinking about yourself first. 

I've decided I'll no longer try and analyse my Ex, our actions or our relationship. Whatever happened has happened and I need to leave it in the past where it truly belongs.

Indeed, labelling isn’t that important, its the awareness (after reading and learning) one finds in order to explain.
After that one is not ready yet.
The rational mind understands, but in order to let the heart come to that conclusion too, is the most difficult path.
That’s where our memories are, all the joyful and painful.

It is not a shame or sign of weakness to work on ‘issues’, it’s a brave thing to do!
It is strength as my P once told me!
The willingness to face, to be confronted with those painful layers that were covered up!

Take good care of yourself and remember… ‘fake it till you make it’ 

[doy]

you write like you know yourself well and also know exactly what happened and what you did.
you sound like a strong person. don't be too hard on yourself... it takes a strong person to see it this clearly, a lot do not even dare to go there and get stuck in denial living with somebody for years in this cycle you were in. i was in it for six months.
it is hard when somebody else makes the decision for you. but the more challenging and proud it will make you in a short while just being you, that you were able to do that,
you were protected in a way by your own YOU.

... don't forget that water always seeks its own level.
that one really keeps me on the right track.
instable , abusive behavior seeks a home to put it. you were not that home.
and good things will come from that.

i am in exactly the same place, and what you say about keeping the past alive by doing this is so cool. because i was thinking the other day the exact same thing. writing about it here can be a great place to reflect and process, it helps me in big steps ... .but it can also be indeed a way to keep a connection with that person alive.i like your realistic way of looking at it. it does not go at once, one sunny spring day doesn't make summer, but we also have to allow that ( even if you sometimes think oo i want it back and bla... .its just human, you cared.)
and trust that you are right on the way to summer. x

 

[SummerStorm]

As others have said, they feel shame, but that feeling is too much for them, so they shut it off. 

My BPD friend once said to me, "Sometimes, I do things that are socially inappropriate, and I forget that they hurt people."  So, somewhere inside her, she knows that she hurts people, but she doesn't have the capacity to change her actions. 

[ShadowA]

So I want to bring this back up, Because mine apologized to me recently.

She felt massive shame on what she did to me and the mountain of lies and told me the "truth" about things.
Although even within that "truth" there was a bunch of lies and distorted truth that made me scratch my head.


In the end, The shame in itself wasn't too much on how much she hurt me and the pain I felt. It was more focused on her and what she did. She didn't seem to care about how i was hurting and had a new boyfriend. But rather, the fact of knowing that she lied and smeared me and did hurt me.

Sounds weird, But what I actually mean is... .Even the apologies, the guilt, and everything. Was all about her... .
She focused on her own pain of guilt, how she felt bad. Didn't matter how I felt, or really cared how I felt.

[enlighten me]

I think the hardest thing to get your head around is how they can say they love you and then do something that goes against that. A lot of people think that its all an out and out lie and they never have feelings for us.

For me I think theres a mixture of things that go on. Their change in feelings can happen so quick like a kid in a toy shop that sees one toy and must have it then notices another and that becomes their focus. At the time the first toy is what they desire and they have an overwhelming desire for it but that is forgotten when they see the new toy. The feelings where real and there but forgotten quickly.

You then have the situation where you are lied to and led a merry dance as they aren't happy but they have nowhere else to go.

So sometimes their feelings are true but other times its a lie. You can only guess at what was what based on circumstances. For me there are clear cut times when my exgf was true with her feelings and there where times when I know she felt regret for her actions. There are also clear cut times where she was leading me on as she had nowhere to go and needed the security I provided even though I was devalued.