Will they ever admit that 2+2 = 4 ? Or do they actually think that 2+2=5?

[CycleBreaker123]

Maybe this is an obvious question to those who know the condition, but it's not obvious to me at all.   There are definitely situations that seem to arise where BPD friend is clearly fabricating a reality to match her feelings.    The most common seemed to be when she would split me Black, and some time goes on -- and I would at some point wish to find out WHY the split occurred, as often I wouldn't have a clue.  And then it finally dawned on me that actually there really was NOT a "good reason", and if I pushed her on it, she would be forced into a corner and come up with some truly nonsense offense.  Early on, I would try to "argue" the point and try to get her to share my "reality", and just move past whatever had occurred in the past that caused her offense.   But at this point, I've come around to accept that trying to get some sort of acknowledgment is pretty much pointless, a waste of time, and further harms whatever scraps remain.    So my question is, do people afflicted with BPD ever accept that they bend reality to match their feelings, or are they actually unaware that such bending has occurred?    Because I just MUST believe that at some level, they KNOW that they behaved badly, and are hoping to cover up their behavior by gaslighting the Non into submitting to their delusion, thus saving them face?     So, in simple terms, when they INSIST that 2+2=5, do they ACTUALLY believe this to be true, or do they know deep down that 2+2=4, yet for whatever reason, would prefer to blow up a cherished relationship than have to admit the obvious.   So when their partner, in desperation, agrees that "ok fine, 2+2=4", do they secretly lose all respect for them, given they know in their hearts that they are totally out-of-line?    Like do they feel like they WON, somehow, by getting the Non to agree that the BPD's reality is shared?     

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[waverider]

There thinking is backwards in that first comes an emotional reaction (the =5) if you like. The reasoning then is not to arrive at an answer/action as that has already happened, but simply to justify/validate that action (they just make up the equation). If there is no natural link then they bend reality and gloss over glaring gaps to make it sound possible using the condition that they are right and you are wrong.

So in answer to your question they dont actually care if 2+2 =5, only that the answer is 5

[CycleBreaker123]

There thinking is backwards in that first comes an emotional reaction (the =5) if you like. The reasoning then is not to arrive at an answer/action as that has already happened, but simply to justify/validate that action (they just make up the equation). If there is no natural link then they bend reality and gloss over glaring gaps to make it sound possible using the condition that they are right and you are wrong.

So in answer to your question they dont actually care if 2+2 =5, only that the answer is 5

Ok, but do they KNOW that 2+2 is actually 4 ?   Or do they actually believe it's 5?  Like would they pass a lie detector test ?

[waverider]

Only when there is no pressing need for it to be 5. What they believe one moment is not necessarily believe the next.

Most people when we get extremely angry or frustrated we make assumptions that we believe we are right, that the next day when the emotion has passed we can look back in hindsight and realise maybe we got the equation out of wack. This is because we work through emotions. Hence we learn and may not make the same miscalculation next time. However, pwBPD simply turn the emotion off and dont reflect on it. So next time same trigger happens it is repeat, often reinforced  by pulling the past example out of memory.

How many times after an incident are you still affected and trying to work out "what the?". They have shut it down and moved on then accuse you of holding grudges. They have simply quarantined it and stored it away for later. They see no "need" for working it out, and they are very immediate needs driven. Reflection is not a strong point

You see a lot of apparent hypocrisy as they can objectively point out 2+2=4 in someone else's case.

Sometimes of course they are aware and are simply bluffing you. This is why it is so hard to get to the bottom things as there is little consistency

[isilme]

Ok, but do they KNOW that 2+2 is actually 4 ?   Or do they actually believe it's 5?  Like would they pass a lie detector test ?

Lie detectors track emotional reactions to questions to see if your heart rate rises or blood pressure, indicating you are not calmly answering something but are stressed and nervous about being caught in a fabrication.  And sociopaths routinely pass such tests because their emotional responses are not "normal". 

My BPD mother could and would lie to your face even with evidence in front of her giving truth to the lie.  But she was so disordered, I can't tell you if she ever really "knew" she was lying at times, or was just so mad I did not accept her truth she had to slap me to shut me up.  And the farther you get in time from the actual incident, the more likely her brain has rewired itself to believe 100% her reality. 

The rage comes from being invalidated, because you are making them vulnerable to shame if they are wrong, and since they can't have that, a lot of walls have been built to protect them, including revisionist history, shifting of blame, ret-conning of the past (I was mad at you because I knew you'd cause an argument later, and I was right because we did argue so it was okay I mad in the morning because of an argument we'd not yet had). 

You really can't apply much logic to it, or try to ferret out motivations.  Not using non-BPD thinking, at least.

Splitting just occurs.  It can be a memory that has nothing to do with you being triggered by a smell, a comment from anyone else, or even just too much time alone.  It can be a time of year (or for women, yes, time of month).  It can be an upcoming holiday makes them edgy because there are familial requirements or expectations.  It can even, like my H, be due to low blood sugar.  Having a head cold coming on can make H split and paint me black. 

After a long time, you may become aware of certain patterns.  Some people on here have stated that even something like eating junk food can make a pwBPD more likely to have an abusive outburst.  It might help you be more validating to know what some triggers are, but since the condition is an emotional one, you're not going to get them all.

I come here to deal with my "What the heck happened" days.  H got his emotional vomit out, and he feels okay.  I'm the one trying to cope with the aftermath and the lingering feelings.

I really DO believe they treat us the way they do because they have some issue feeling their emotions on the own.  They need a target, a focus, and participant, something we provide that lets them spew it all out, like food poisoning, and once it's out, they may be tired, but overall, feel somehow different and even at times, better.  We hurt because we are the lucky ones close enough to qualify as targets for it all, and we don't have their coping mechanisms of pushing it off onto other people, and so we try to manage it with OUR coping skills, which want a rational reason for the irrational. 

[Portent]

There thinking is backwards in that first comes an emotional reaction (the =5) if you like. The reasoning then is not to arrive at an answer/action as that has already happened, but simply to justify/validate that action (they just make up the equation). If there is no natural link then they bend reality and gloss over glaring gaps to make it sound possible using the condition that they are right and you are wrong.

So in answer to your question they dont actually care if 2+2 =5, only that the answer is 5

Yep I'm a football coach so I watch football on Sundays. And I watch it different than most guys. I take notes. As our marriage was on the rocks I decided that I wouldn't watch football that year. I instead spent every Sunday working around the house, inside and out and just trying to make her life easier. Well she had already made the decision that she was going to leave March during a vacation, she felt engulfed by our new child etc. etc., so she went about creating the case in her head. During a later arguemnt she brought up my watching football on Sundays.

I responeded

'The first and only game I watched all year was the Superbowl. I spent every Sunday working around the house and spending time with the kids.'

She just got this shocked look of denial on her face. She really did believe her own narrative. Once a pwBPD gets a narrative stuck in their head no amount of reality will convince them otherwise. And the smarter they are the worse they are.

[Shane87]

CycleBreaker123,

With my dear wife who has BPD, facts/reality/history are completely dependent on the narrative that justifies her in the moment.  I've seen her deny having done something to one person, then later freely acknowledge the same action when speaking to another person.  The deciding factor was the narrative that best justified her depending on who she was speaking with.

Presenting facts to her only magnified her level of emotional dysregulation, and magnified her need to cast anyone who contradicts her as a villain while presenting herself as a victim.

Does she actually believe the "facts" that she fabricates?  I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if she literally convinces herself that she's being completely sincere every time.  Otherwise she would be internally acknowledging that she is lying and manipulating others, and my wife is incapable of accepting responsibility for any wrongdoing.

[waverider]

Not sure pwBPD see "facts" the same way most people do. Rather they are a palate of pigments and like an artist they can mix and match, add or leave out as required to paint a picture. All part of communicating what they are feeling.

To further the artist analogy they use more of an impressionism style than realism, so a rough splodge can represent a flower rather than something that at least is recognisable as one, as the are communicating mood and emotion.

Often when trying to describe a feeling we use an analogy, many pwBPD struggle to be objective enough to use analogies so they simply blend it all together and end up corrupting reality