Time to talk divorce. What and how is a good way?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Greetings.  I hope everyone here is doing as well as can be - in our present circumstances.
I have gone through a substantial mental health growth spurt in the last two years.  I've come a long way, and I know I have a way to go.  One thing I have learned is that as I have improved myself, amazingly, those around me improved too, and before I knew it, life got better.  Nevertheless, I have reached the point at which I feel I cannot go much further married in its current, or even future improved condition (if it gets better).  Simply stated, I cannot continue to be the caretaker, and my uBPDw has not overcome her core personality.  I have gotten a pattern of reminder incidents that reinforce this fact.  She will never be able to act in a normal healthy way around me.  She will always react with a "Reality One" response to what I do, and life in general.  [That phrase should mean something to Patricia Evans' readers].  She will always be occupied by her own inner darkness and unhappiness, and it leaks out in fear, anger, instability, blame, and so forth.  She has no stable sense of self.

I realize and accept that I desire to have peace.  It has been, and always will be, important to my mindset, and my ability to live and thrive in my life.  I believe that my conclusion is that I cannot have both a marriage to my wife and inner peace.  I have tried the path of acceptance, and I have created my own happiness, and that has done wonders.  I also know that I have traded truth for peace (actually, not peace, but a lack of open conflict - there's a difference).  

The peace I have achieved is also a part of my awareness that just about all feelings for her are dead.  I can say I love her, in the same sense that I love stray dogs, and strangers, and friends, and homeless people, and I love a sunny day.  I wish her the very best as a human, and especially as the mother of my kids, but, unlike some who struggle with the idea of divorce, I have no romantic, spiritual, or "couples" feelings or memories that are binding me to the marriage.  I do come from a devout religious background and divorce is very taboo.  But, that's my hurdle.  I am good with what to tell my creator.  I am only concerned about the judgement of one in that regard.

Given this awareness, it is time to talk about divorce.  Although not diagnosed, her patterns of behavior fit the description of BPD, with five to seven of the diagnostic traits (and more or less depending on external stressors). She has behaviors consistent with the descriptions of being a Waif type with a blend of Hermit.  She also will roll into Narcissistic traits on rare occasion (perhaps as a more deliberate cover for the inner waif).  She has not had full-blown rages for a few years - directly due to the fact I almost completely withdrew emotionally, and moved to the basement, and stayed far away of triggers.  But, she has it in her.  I vividly remember the dilated eyes of rage, and mock self righteousness, and projection, and verbal abuse.  (*shivers)  I cannot be sure that she will not be a risk to her or the kids' safety (four at home presently, with a college aged girl to be home for summer).  She has driven off and disappeared for a day in the past.

In the current legal environment, I will select to be separated pending divorce, living in the same house.  I'm not at all in a progressive county in which dads are almost assured 50/50 custody.  I'll have to pitch a nearly perfect legal battle to get something near equality.  I don't want to use the strategy of blindsiding her with divorce papers.  I feel still obligated to have a "business meeting" about divorce.  She will be forever a part of my life because of the kids, and burning bridges by an alpha strike divorce is not the way to achieve it.  I have gotten to say many deep and potentially hurtful things to her in the past, and I have noticed that she can mirror my calmness, at least during the conversation.  I believe that I am a person that could have a conversation about divorce, and yet decide to stay married.  I doubt that my wife could. I heard it said that you can't un-say divorce, and once you do, everything changes.  I'm not sure about this, but, I do know things will change.

So, here's my request for help from the community.  How shall I go about talking about divorce?
What methods are likely to yield the most positive outcome? Which the least?
Any advice, or flaws in my thinking that you recognize?

Thanks in advance.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Greetings.  I hope everyone here is doing as well as can be - in our present circumstances.
I have gone through a substantial mental health growth spurt in the last two years.  I've come a long way, and I know I have a way to go.  One thing I have learned is that as I have improved myself, amazingly, those around me improved too, and before I knew it, life got better.  Nevertheless, I have reached the point at which I feel I cannot go much further married in its current, or even future improved condition (if it gets better).  Simply stated, I cannot continue to be the caretaker, and my uBPDw has not overcome her core personality.  I have gotten a pattern of reminder incidents that reinforce this fact.  She will never be able to act in a normal healthy way around me.  She will always react with a "Reality One" response to what I do, and life in general.  [That phrase should mean something to Patricia Evans' readers].  She will always be occupied by her own inner darkness and unhappiness, and it leaks out in fear, anger, instability, blame, and so forth.  She has no stable sense of self.

I realize and accept that I desire to have peace.  It has been, and always will be, important to my mindset, and my ability to live and thrive in my life.  I believe that my conclusion is that I cannot have both a marriage to my wife and inner peace.  I have tried the path of acceptance, and I have created my own happiness, and that has done wonders.  I also know that I have traded truth for peace (actually, not peace, but a lack of open conflict - there's a difference).  

The peace I have achieved is also a part of my awareness that just about all feelings for her are dead.  I can say I love her, in the same sense that I love stray dogs, and strangers, and friends, and homeless people, and I love a sunny day.  I wish her the very best as a human, and especially as the mother of my kids, but, unlike some who struggle with the idea of divorce, I have no romantic, spiritual, or "couples" feelings or memories that are binding me to the marriage.  I do come from a devout religious background and divorce is very taboo.  But, that's my hurdle.  I am good with what to tell my creator.  I am only concerned about the judgement of one in that regard.

Given this awareness, it is time to talk about divorce.  Although not diagnosed, her patterns of behavior fit the description of BPD, with five to seven of the diagnostic traits (and more or less depending on external stressors). She has behaviors consistent with the descriptions of being a Waif type with a blend of Hermit.  She also will roll into Narcissistic traits on rare occasion (perhaps as a more deliberate cover for the inner waif).  She has not had full-blown rages for a few years - directly due to the fact I almost completely withdrew emotionally, and moved to the basement, and stayed far away of triggers.  But, she has it in her.  I vividly remember the dilated eyes of rage, and mock self righteousness, and projection, and verbal abuse.  (*shivers)  I cannot be sure that she will not be a risk to her or the kids' safety (four at home presently, with a college aged girl to be home for summer).  She has driven off and disappeared for a day in the past.

In the current legal environment, I will select to be separated pending divorce, living in the same house.  I'm not at all in a progressive county in which dads are almost assured 50/50 custody.  I'll have to pitch a nearly perfect legal battle to get something near equality.  I don't want to use the strategy of blindsiding her with divorce papers.  I feel still obligated to have a "business meeting" about divorce.  She will be forever a part of my life because of the kids, and burning bridges by an alpha strike divorce is not the way to achieve it.  I have gotten to say many deep and potentially hurtful things to her in the past, and I have noticed that she can mirror my calmness, at least during the conversation.  I believe that I am a person that could have a conversation about divorce, and yet decide to stay married.  I doubt that my wife could. I heard it said that you can't un-say divorce, and once you do, everything changes.  I'm not sure about this, but, I do know things will change.

So, here's my request for help from the community.  How shall I go about talking about divorce?
What methods are likely to yield the most positive outcome? Which the least?
Any advice, or flaws in my thinking that you recognize?

Thanks in advance.

[flourdust]

Hi, Sam. I'm sorry to hear it has come to this. It's a difficult decision, and I know you've been wrestling with it for some time.

I'm learning that divorce is a process, not an event. So, I see you focusing a little too much on that initial conversation about divorce, in the hope that it will affect everything that follows. I think that's... .not likely. Divorce is difficult, destabilizing, slow, and full of little victories, defeats, and surprises. I don't think it makes much difference in the end if you hit your wife with a surprise filing or ease her gently into it with a heartfelt conversation.

It's a little like expecting that your marriage's success depends on planning the perfect wedding.

All that said, here are my suggestions to get you started:

1. Consult with 2-3 attorneys. Do this BEFORE talking to your wife. If you haven't done so yet, read Bill Eddy's "Splitting" for good advice on divorcing a high-conflict personality, and when you interview attorneys, ask about their experience and how they handle high-conflict cases. These consultations may be free or may cost a few hundred dollars each, but they are worth it. You will get a LOT of good advice to help you firm up your understanding of how divorce is likely to work in your specific state and situation, and what steps you should be taking.

1a. As a strategic matter, if there's a particular firm that is known for being the most ruthless divorce pit bull in town, be sure to interview with them. Not because you want to hire them, but because the consultation creates a conflict of interest situation which blocks your wife from hiring them. This is something I failed to do, and I am paying for it now.

1b. To maximize the usefulness of these consultations, you'll need to provide a detailed summary of your finances, family situation, job history, etc. So, start gathering and organizing your documents now, even before you set up those appointments.

1c. Did I mention to have these consultations before talking with your wife? I did? Good. Do that. One thing you can certainly ask about is how to broach the topic of divorce. Ask that.

2. Consider a range of options for what is likely to happen. You've sketched out your dream scenario where you sit down for a civil "business meeting" about divorce, then cohabit while separated. This strikes me as not impossible, but exceptionally optimistic. Your consultations with attorneys can give you some sense of they think is realistic. One thing that I would urge you to consider is that tension and conflict are NOT going to peak on the day you ask for divorce. There will be periods -- perhaps months and months -- where it gets worse and worse. You need plans for more than just the best-case scenario.

2a. Your attorney consultations can also give you a sense of your likely outcomes for custody, how living arrangements impact those outcomes, etc. Don't make assumptions (as you are doing here) that you need to live in a certain way to get the outcome you want.

Those are my initial thoughts -- hope that helps get you started thinking about your next steps.

[livednlearned]

Excellent advice from flourdust.

Can you remind us what ages your kids are?

What are your goals for custody and other aspects of divorce? By goals, I mean, what do you think is best for the kids (this may be different based on their ages). Not what you think is possible in your conservative county, but what you think is best.

What are your biggest concerns in divorcing her?

Not all people with BPD are high-conflict people (HCPs) as Bill Eddy calls them. An HCP is someone who is a persuasive blamer, recruits negative advocates, and has a target of blame (usually you). HCPs are more likely to make false allegations or engage in legal abuse. Knowing this can help frame your strategy.

If your wife is a waif, her particular issues may manifest as stonewalling and obstruction. Or, she may experience suicidal ideation.

It's helpful for the kids if you are a few steps ahead so you can manage and help parent them through whatever crises come up.

Are the kids in therapy by any chance?

LnL

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you both.  I have had paid visits with four divorce attorneys, and phone consultations with two others.  I'd like to revisit some since it has been over a year since I started.  I like the tip to find the rabid-dog attorney to check them off the opponent list.  I love your analogy for having the perfect marriage by planning the perfect wedding. Maybe I'm trying that.  There's no good way to do this, but I do want to approach the subject properly.  If there is such a thing.  

I read Splitting over two years ago as my primer for divorce and introduction to BPD. I have come a long way since then.  Although I have no way of knowing what will actually happen, I have exposed myself to as much reading as I can concerning that kids, divorce, parenting, BPD, and HCP.  I think my wife is instinctively a HCP - that being how she was raised and surrounded with verbal abuse as a kid.  I am the counter to that I think, in that I have learned to turn off my anger altogether, so, there's nothing for her to high-conflict against.  Because of this I see little opportunity for her to have conflict with me, but, it wouldn't take much to get some encouragement to be legally hostile and obstructionist from the hen-house, or a conflict hungry divorce attorney.  She will certainly see herself as the victim and feel justified in calls for my crucifixion.

The prevailing wisdom is that I stay in the house, at least until a custody agreement is signed and sealed.  Painful and risky (to false accusations), but, the best bid to be an involved dad and set status quo.  On the up side I do have a few years of parenting journal - to show that I'm invested in the kids.  So, separate quarters might be closer than I think.  Which brings up a whole slew of practical concerns at the moment. Who pays for what, how can I afford it, etc.  She's a stay home mom, with what looks to me like willful un / under employment.  She also appears to the public as a stellar mom.  So, I'll have to have a big win in court to get custody.  I work full time and have a long commute / work day, but, I do so much for them when I'm home (bedtimes, doctor trips, excursions, groceries, scouting, laundry, library, etc.).  

I wonder if I am not ready to talk about it because I am not ready to do it.  On the other hand, I think talking about divorce with her will remove all remaining doubt, as she will surely go to pieces and confirm my belief that this has to end.  There is a risk of suicide ideation, as she's had those thoughts before (wishing she was dead, which is not itself suicide). She may shut down with the shock of it, chained with all the other rejections she's gotten (while applying for jobs over the last year).  I do expect her to have bad behavior in regards to parental alienation.  She seems not able to stop blaming me, and jumping to conclusions for the kids - and telling the kids false things about me.

My kids are D18, D16, S12, D9, D6.  The most afflicted is S12, who is on the spectrum somewhere towards autism.  :)16 is a chip of the old block of mom, with almost word-for-word behavior like her mom (blame, low self esteem, fearing me after jumping to conclusions and "mind reading," projection, passive aggression).  :)18 is growing up to be quite a stable young adult, having some normal residual teenage issues, but really squared away on her own.  :)9 and D6 are still in the phase that they love dad and I'm their hero.  I've carefully tried to inject emotional intelligence teachings when I'm with the kids.  I focus a lot on validating feelings, teaching them a sense of self, acceptance, and so forth.  S12 had been to a recent T, who said that she couldn't serve him, and suggested a further autism screening.  I persuaded D16, against all her will power, to go to a T.  :)ue to a glitch, our appointment wasn't possible, and she has stonewalled me ever since.  Mom will try to get her to go.  As for that, my wife has given lip service only to her own individual, or couples counseling.

Floudust, you ask what's best for the kids.  Well, I don't know how far down from the ideal of an intact, healthy, two-parent family, I should look for what's best.  Something above Aleppo I think.
 
I believe that the kids will need substantial time with me, court enforced if necessary, in order to prevent parental alienation and brainwashing, not to mention to give them a house where they can be kids.  However, mom has a right and responsibility to the kids too, and she can be valuable to them.  So, for ease of scheduling (the kids' and mine), I'd like 50/50, joint legal.  I expect I'll get killed with financial burdens from a divorce and subsequent alimony and child support.  To quote myself though, "No man would be a slave, if poverty were the price of freedom."

[flourdust]

It sounds like you are doing your legwork. Well done! I would suggest re-reading Splitting, and you might also look into ":)on't Alienate the Kids!", also by Eddy. I found that one very helpful in terms of figuring out what my parenting role had to be.

I am the counter to that I think, in that I have learned to turn off my anger altogether, so, there's nothing for her to high-conflict against.  Because of this I see little opportunity for her to have conflict with me, but, it wouldn't take much to get some encouragement to be legally hostile and obstructionist from the hen-house, or a conflict hungry divorce attorney.  She will certainly see herself as the victim and feel justified in calls for my crucifixion.

Yes. You should of course be wary of conflict with you, but also consider the triangulation of a legal battle. She can throw lots of conflict in your direction with the intent of acting out the role of victim in front of the judge (rescuer). You may let all of this roll off you like water off a duck's back, but you and your attorney need to be prepared for the right approach to respond, pre-empt, or counterattack to the right degree and at the right times. This is tricky and uncharted waters for you.

As for money ... .it's going to cost you, and your standard of living is going to take a hit. There's no way around that. Be prepared to fund your wife during the divorce process, although you and your attorney can discuss how much to fund her and strategies to compel her to go to work. But, yes -- don't get attached to things like your home equity, retirement fund, etc.

[byfaith]

Hi Sam,
In my situation my wife had filed back on Jan 31. I don't think she intended on divorcing me I think she looked at it as her protecting herself.
I told her almost a month ago to proceed with serving me. Yesterday I had to go ahead and accept service. She will find out Monday or Tuesday.

I just had to tell my wife that I wanted the divorce. I tried to plan what to say and how to say it. I had gone and borrowed money to hire a lawyer so I took care of that first. The opportunity presented itself and I just told her in the kindest way I knew how.

That was on April 8th. My wife is not rooted in reality. She is not grasping yet that she will have to take care of herself financially. When she finds out Monday or Tuesday that we have accepted service how she responds is unpredictable.

You seem as though you are in a good place as far as building up some finances, that's good. You seem to be happy enough living in your house with your kids to call it home. That's good.

I wish you the best

[ForeverDad]

FlourDust (hey, same initials as mine!) made some very solid points.  What I would add is the thought about advance self-protection.

When I divorced I had a preschooler, I knew my ex would overreact and retaliate when facing divorce.  And yes there were repeated allegations made to just about every agency possible — police, deputy sheriffs, child protective services (CPS), child therapist agency, hospitals, regional child abuse team at the local children's hospital, seeking Amber Alert, etc.  They all fell short of 'substantiated' allegations but they were scary nonetheless and distracted the professionals from the real facts of the case.  Frankly, they didn't care that all the prior allegations were investigated and closed.  Each new allegation had to be investigated to determine whether I was the abuser as alleged.  Horrendous.

Since you have older children it may be different.  Maybe the conflict won't be too bad.  Maybe she won't frame you for being abusive and call the police on you and force you out of the home and looking bad to boot.  Maybe.  But you still need to protect yourself ti minimize the risk of such scenarios.

Your adult daughter may be able to strengthen your defense, if that is needed.  Likely a Custody Evaluation will be needed, an in depth evaluation on the family members and what is best (or adequate) for the children.  If so then don't let her or her lawyer pick the CE.  One way to limit the other side is to find out which local evaluators have the best reputations.  Make a list of at least three then present that list to court and the other side asking them to make the final selection from that most excellent list.  Court will go along with that approach since it lets both parents participate in the selection.

The goal is to get out in front of any sabotage she may scheme.  She won't want to appear to be a bad mother.  I often state that my ex fought so hard because she wanted me to appear worse than her.  Understand that perspective.  Yes it is normal not to want to look bad or worse than another but the sad fact is that our cases are extreme ones, for all we know she may be willing and ready to do literally anything to make you look worse than her.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all again.  I think I need to knock off my rose-colored glasses.  I may think a business meeting is in order. I should know that that there won't be such a thing.  If she was a woman who could have a business meeting about divorce, there wouldn't be a mental health crisis and reason for a divorce.  Interesting Catch-22.  I still feel obligated by some sense of honor and fair play to give it a try.  However, after a recent conversation, I realize I'm only letting myself believe that she'll handle this well.  I've gotten so good and coping mechanisms and creating calm in spite of the chaos under the surface, that I lull myself into thinking things are alright.

A question remains as to whether I can ride out another 10 years, then when the youngest is 16 or so, and child support will be just about a non-issue, go for divorce at that time.  I am not sure if I can do that, or how.  Then, the third option is to just stay married indefinitely and keep working on coping and my inner-peace.   I am not sure I can do that either.

So, that leads back to thinking about divorce.  Maybe I'm kidding myself that I can manage a divorce and get something near 50/50.  I have long days, and an employed dad is better than an unemployed dad. I've got lost fo parenting skills and can handle it, but, I'm not sure a court (fueled by a triangulated emotional blamer - thanks for pointing that out FD) would be sore sure I can do it.  In the case that my wife got a great majority of custody time, I would feel that I have failed to protect the kids.  In that case, I'd be better staying married and doing what I can where I am.

My adult daughter (wow, that sounds weird, they grow so fast) could be a stabilizer for the siblings.  I'd hate her to bear any extra weight or responsibility.  However, she's only home summers and Christmas break, so maybe her influence can count, and it not be a burden to her.

More to think about for sure, but, I need to face the mirror, and say this won't be easy.

[livednlearned]

Hi SG,

Going through pros and cons point by point is wise. I did the same.

At some point, you will have to accept there is a degree of uncertainty to all of this.

We humans don't like uncertainty  

It really is like jumping in your boat on an uncharted river and hoping your skills will kick in through miles of rapids.

There will be, surprisingly, stretches that are not as hairy as you anticipated. Other sections might catch you off guard.

At some point, these divorces and whether to stay or go are about our capacity to tolerate uncertainty.

I'm not at all in a progressive county in which dads are almost assured 50/50 custody.  I'll have to pitch a nearly perfect legal battle to get something near equality.

Keep in mind that your wife, even if she gets 70/30, will likely be in for a shock when she is expected to do 100 percent of the parenting. She may get a better custodial order on paper, but in practice dumps more time on you in order to manage her own stress.

This is why we say it's a marathon not a sprint.

A lot of us end up modifying the initial order, based on documentation gathered once the court clock starts ticking.

[DoxieLover]

Since you mentioned that your wife is voluntarily in/underemployed, one thing my husband and I considered (but thankfully didn't end up needing to use, is the argument that your job may require a long commute but it's stable and predictable and therefore you can set up daycare as needed around it.  Wife shouldn't get more parenting time (Ie - more than 50/50) as you don't know what kind of job she is going to get and what it will entail as far as commute and schedule.  Likewise, if she has more than 50/50, she will likely try to use that as a reason she can't work (Ie - cuz she needs to take care of the kids).  At any rate, not phrasing this in a good legal argument way, but hopefully these thoughts will help you prepare your case for why you should get 50/50 at a minimum.  Anyway, hope this helps!

Take care and good luck!
Doxie

[SamwizeGamgee]

Very much appreciated.  I'm certainly not trying to game a divorce case or manipulate people, but, knowing ways to provide for my best, the kids best, and yes, even my wife's best interests just by wording and realistic goals is strengthening to me. 
I have held myself stuck because I have usually looked at only two options.

[ForeverDad]

When I separated and divorced (we had been married over 15 years and had a preschooler) my spouse was then doing MLM and bringing in as much as $200 per month.  (If that was a full time job that would calculate to maybe $1 per hour.)  I managed to get the court to 'impute' her with minimum wage, quite a bit higher.  After all, she had been making over $2 above min wage previously when our son was born.  Though court did order me to provide some interim support, it was short term and ended 3 years after the final decree.

So if your spouse isn't working or earning what your spouse could, then try to use the imputed earnings strategy to reduce the seeming disparity between your income and spouse's income.

Besides, if your spouse isn't working then it is an excellent strategy to have court discern that you really do want her to be successful earning an income in a job or career so the transition to post-marriage life will be less difficult.

[Panda39]

My SO was also able to get his wife imputed with minimum wage.  At the time of their divorce she was a stay at home mom however, she had a history of some employment in the past and she had a Bachelor's degree.  So she had the demonstrated that she had the intelligence/education to work and had a work history to make at minimum, minimum wage.

Panda39

[formflier]

I like your strategy of not "leading" with the alpha strike out of nowhere.

It is important that your alpha strike is circling and ready for when your first talk with her is done.  Let's hope she doesn't freak, but you need to be ready for her to go haywire

Even after a few weeks of reasonable, she could go off the deep end.

Prep is everything.

FF