Pillow talk?

[Lalathegreat]

Ok I have to know if my pwBPD is the only one who does this... .some of the best conversations we have happen during sex. Frequently he will be emotionally vulnerable and talk more openly about our relationship and his hopes for us.

But then in the light of day he will frequently remind me that "pillow talk" isn't real and criticize me for not being aware of the difference.

It makes me sad because I think he probably does mean most of those things at the time, but he uses the pillow talk excuse when he becomes frightened by the intimacy created during those moments.

Anyone else deal with this?

[BeagleGirl]

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but this is something I've needed to mull over.

I relate on some level to the sense of closeness that my hwBPD seems to experience only during and immediately after physical intimacy.  It's been a long while since I have been able to share that closeness because I have an almost Pavlovian response to the anticipated aftermath.  For so many years I kept hoping that THIS time the emotional intimacy would continue after we left the bed.  There are lots of complicating factors, but for the past couple years I have started to emotionally shut down as soon as he starts touching me.  I think the pattern of physical and emotional vulnerability followed closely by abuse and crazy-making finally triggered a self-protection mechanism.  The problem is that physical intimacy has come to feel like I'm being violated.  I can't seem to reconcile myself to receiving physical pleasure from someone who I don't feel safe with emotionally.  It feels like that was the last tenuous thread of connection, and now that I am "withholding" physical intimacy that seems to be his endgame.  All conversations seem to end up there, and that seems to be the ultimate indicator for him of whether "we are okay".  I really struggle with feeling "used", and that seems to have become a self fulfilling prophecy, as he picks up on my mental and emotional absence and shuts down as well.  Then all we are left with is a physical act that provides release for him and not much more.

I don't really have any advice for you.  I think you may be right about the reality of what he shares with you as "pillow talk" and the subsequent denial and minimization of what was said being a protection mechanism.  Have you tried finding a neutral time (not in bed, not in "disregulation" to talk with him about your confusion?

[formflier]

But then in the light of day he will frequently remind me that "pillow talk" isn't real and criticize me for not being aware of the difference.
 

This has to be incredibly hurtful.

Seriously... .what a bs thing to say.  Is the sex not real then either?  Why do either if they aren't real?

What have you said in return when he says it isn't real?

FF

[Lalathegreat]

Honestly FF? I said nothing because I couldn't figure out what to say. In the moment I was just incredibly hurt. I did not know how to verbalize those emotions for myself, let alone clean them up and make them palatable to pwBPD.

The first few times that it happened I found myself thinking "Oh ok, I need to just do a better job of compartmentalizing what is said in the bedroom and not trusting that any of it is real." But instead I ended up clinging to those conversations as some sort of oasis during the hard times.

I've posted before about how challenging the intimacy has been at times, and that continues to be the case. When it's good it's amazing (and the talk is part of that for me) and when it isn't, it REALLY isn't.

[Lalathegreat]

BG - thank you for your reply and for sharing. I am finding that I am starting to have the same sort of "Pavlovian" response. I am no longer able to settle into our physical relationship and enjoy the moment - I'm already thinking about how none of what is happening is "real" to him and how when we get up in the morning he will be back to badgering me for whatever slight he is percieving in the moment.

BPD sucks.

[formflier]

As we get to know each other better, we start to form opinions about "big picture" things that people need to change.

I'm going to offer something for you to think about.  I think you are WAAAY to focused on him and not triggering him  AND... .that is training him to be more "trigerable".  Because when he expresses a trigger... .you put on your leotards and start doing gymnastics or just shut down and let him do his thing.

 I did not know how to verbalize those emotions for myself, let alone clean them up and make them palatable to pwBPD.

The prescription:  Tell him directly and succintly how you fee the next time he says something like that... .and let him figure out how to process it for BPD.

"Oh my... that's an incredibly hurtful thing for me to hear... . It was very real to me... . I need some time to think this through... .I'm going to go.  I'll text you tomorrow."

Two goals:

1.  Express your hurt to him directly.
2.  Teach him that you won't tolerate those kinds of statements.

It's about what you will tolerate, not what he should or shouldn't be doing it.  Honestly... .what he thinks about it doesn't matter.  You standing up for your values is what matters.

And out the door you go.

Thoughts?

FF

[Lalathegreat]

You are absolutely right FF... .interesting timing on this. I went to dinner last night with a good friend who is in a long term relationship with someone who also strongly exhibits BPD tendencies. He's higher functioning than mine, (he's never been physical) but there are striking similarities.

So we were talking last night and there was something about her that was just very different than when we last got together a few months ago. So we started talking and she basically told me that she got "fed up" enough that she began to feel that she really had nothing left to lose in the relationship. And when she stopped being afraid of losing him, there was nothing left to hold back by standing up, speaking out, and calling his bluffs. She described the dramatic shift in dynamic that came with this. How yes - he had raged and threatened and things hadn't been "easy", but that ultimately it has given her back a sense of power and control that has made everything much more bearable. She also noted that HIS behavior has improved as she percieves that he feels he can't "get away" with as much.

At any rate, after talking with her it has become a lot more clear what I need to do. It won't be easy, and quite frankly - I think my guy might just freak and cut me off. But I really feel that I am in the same place she was in that I no longer feel that I have much to lose and nowhere left to go. It just is what it is.

And then I came home and read this and had a chuckle because... .timing.

Thank you as always for your candor and insight.

[formflier]

I think my guy might just freak and cut me off.

At which point you can be sad... .very sad... as your grieve the r/s.

When he wants to recycle, you can either decline or "up the ante" or cost for him to get back in good graces with you.  Perhaps that would be a therapist that also sees you... .who knows.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Felt like saying, I think for pwBPD, it is their reality that their feelings are compartmentalized, and they flip flop between compartments.

So when you are still in the compartment of feeling the things they said in bed, and they are now in a compartment of being somewhere else... .it is invalidating. 

My ex liked to cause conflict... .
To see me exhibit the same emotional turmoil he was having... .so as to validate his way of emotionally processing. (Into compartments) So to help him feel more like "the rest of us." To help "normalize" his experience.  ... .he would try to trigger in me the dysfunction he was feeling inside... .to "prove" to himself, he indeed was like everyone else.

So I hear you say maybe you should compartmentalize... .
Yet, sure, that is what this behavior could easily trigger in anyone. 
That seems to be how many of us "cope" with our SO flip flopping.

Yet, I really really like FF advice way better.
Staying true to one's reality.
Seems way more healthy.

[formflier]

So I hear you say maybe you should compartmentalize... .
 
Seems way more healthy.

We were taught to compartmentalize in the military.  It was very useful, but had a big cost.  We would stuff our feelings and focus on the mission.  Feelings would come out later.  Sometimes much later.  Sometimes several different events worth of stuff would come bursting out.

Much much better to deal with today's stuff today.  Feel it and work through it.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

At any rate, after talking with her it has become a lot more clear what I need to do. It won't be easy, and quite frankly - I think my guy might just freak and cut me off. But I really feel that I am in the same place she was in that I no longer feel that I have much to lose and nowhere left to go. It just is what it is.

 

Another way of describing what she did and what you are contemplating doing is enforcing new boundaries to protect yourself.

Here's how that goes, if you both take all the steps forward:

First, you are really worried and anxious about triggering him... .but you get past that and do it.

Second, he reacts (badly) with an extinction burst, escalating his bad behavior, trying to get you to back down and return to the way things were before.

Third, you stand firm, perhaps needing stronger boundary enforcement for his escalation.

Fourth, he adjusts to the new 'normal' with the new boundaries, and doesn't test them (well not too much, and not like the extinction burst, at least)

Finally, you both discover that the new 'normal' actually feels healthier and better than the old way, although you may not get acknowledgement from him or credit.

It may not continue to completion. There are 'turning points'

You can be frozen, not quite ready to take step 1. Yes, it really is scary to do it, and we all spend some time stuck, often needing some kind of kick in the pants to go forward. (If you stay stuck there, he's pretty sure to continue providing inspiration to go forward now and again! )

You can choose to back down instead at step 3, and if you do, things will go back to how they were, or likely a bit worse.

At step 4, he can choose to bail completely on the relationship instead of choosing to live with the boundaries. NOTE: I don't mean threats to leave, I mean really ending the relationship. I think odds are against it, but it is possible.

Still... .if you stand strong, most likely, things will be better when you get through!

[Lalathegreat]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I'm sitting here at the park with pwBPD's son after having spent the afternoon watching pwBPD nap and complain about how awful he feels. One of my boundaries (for my sanity) HAS to be that I do not stay the entire evening/night on the days that he is emotionally shut down and unable to engage. Because it never goes well. Dinner is always a mess, a fight is generally picked by bedtime, and the badgering over what he perceives my feelings to be ramps up. So I've already decided that I need to drop his son off and then leave for the rest of the evening.

So hooray - my first chance to stand up and step off the cliff!

My friend was so right though when she said that she found the courage to stand up once she stopped being afraid of what she might lose. That resonated completely through me. And today as I listened to him bellyache and moan, I found myself thinking about where I would be if all of this was gone tomorrow. And I felt relief. Not fear, not sadness - though I'm sure there would be sadness and a tremendous sense of loss for "what might have been". But I am reconciling with the fact that the person I met in the beginning wasn't real. And I am becoming very clear that all I stand to lose are the current unbearable circumstances. And they are unbearable.

Thanks for listening, understanding, and offering insight. I am grateful for this board.

[formflier]

Perhaps a way to do this is to "plan" your visits.  Get there, test the waters and then let him know you will be sticking around for 2 hours. 

You can always leave earlier... .

Plus if he starts getting crank or wants to get into some big thing... .

"Can we use our limited time tonight in a positive way?"  "We can talk about that troublesome subject in two nights, when I have more time."

or something like that.

     Standing up for yourself. 

FF

[Grey Kitty]

My friend was so right though when she said that she found the courage to stand up once she stopped being afraid of what she might lose. That resonated completely through me.

 

I know what you mean. I've noticed that when I stop letting my fear define and control my choices, I become a much happier Grey Kitty than the one who used to let that fear rule me.

Just remembering that feeling helps, because sometimes you still feel the fear, but this is enough for you to stop reacting to it even when it comes back!

[Lalathegreat]

Well that was a bit of a ___ show but as with all things it's a learning process... .

The good:
1) I stated clearly my time frame
2) I stuck to it.

The bad:
Pretty much everything else... .

He really is in a sad way. His son and I got back and I said "I have another hour before I need to go. Would you like to watch some Grimm?" He started to unravel. "Oh no, was it me? Are you done? You're done and fed up with me!" And I fell into the reassurance loop. "No I'm not, I just need time for myself sometimes." Oh big mistake "if you need time to yourself I'm not doing my job right!" Reassure reassure - lather, rinse, repeat. For the whole hour.

Me: "I'm sorry, it's time for me to go."
Him: "please don't."
Me: " I will text you in a little bit to check in."
Him: "you see, this is what you do. You walk away when I need you. You're selfish and self centered. You're a ___ and I don't know why I've settled for your abusive bull___."
Me: I can see that your frustrated, it's hard when people have to go when we want them to stay. I promise that I will check in later."

Turn, walk to door...

Him behind me: "then don't come back ever... ."
Me: I hope you'll reconsider at some point - walking walking open door... .

Him: wait, please, wait don't go - follows me out the door and grabs arm.
Me: Pulling away, I will text later - turn and walk faster down stairs
Him: "you stupid ___! Following... .
Me: hit the stairs and pick up the pace - I'm getting nervous now
Him: reaches to grab me (I'm at the bottom of the stairs)

I lunge to avoid his reach, trip, tear my jeans and the palms of my hands. But I stand up and keep going, and he fell completely apart. "Oh my god, I'm sorry, I'm so so sorry! I didn't mean to hurt you I didn't try to hurt you!"

Me: I will check in later!

Get in car, drive away... .

I texted later, tried to keep it light. Haven't received a response and it's been 15 hours. Generally this doesn't bode well, he's stewing.

At any rate, that's the latest for those following along. I can see about a million ways this could have gone better, but in general I'm proud of myself for sticking to my guns.

[BeagleGirl]

Lalathegreat,

You do deserve to feel proud of setting and holding to your boundaries.  That is an extremely difficult thing to do.   I know what it's like to be chased like that, and it's terrifying.

I'm not sure what others may suggest, but I am thinking it might be time to set a clear boundary about behaviors that are abusive.  In my experience, giving the behavior a label (like abusive) may be counter productive, but making sure to fully define/describe  the behavior you want to stop is necessary.  Maybe something like:

"I want you to know that I consider some of the behavior you exhibited last night intolerable.  When I choose to leave a conversation or your presence it is very important to me that you do not chase me or try to stop me physically.  I understand your desire to continue communication and I am willing to provide a time frame for reengaging in conversation either verbally as I leave or by text or phone call within x hrs of leaving.  If you do not honor this request and chase me or do things to prevent me from leaving, I will x, y, and/or z (state the consequences of him repeating this behavior.) "

You may want to consider the option of calling the police as one of the consequences.  You may also want to think of ways that you can avoid being put in a position where he can chase you like that again.  Might you need a period of time where you are not alone with him in his home?  Is it possible to establish with him that you will be leaving without announcing it to him and text him your goodbye?  I'm not coming up with any great ideas, but maybe others will.

BeagleGirl

[flourdust]

I think you did fabulous, especially for a first attempt at boundary enforcement. There are no judges out here scoring you on poise and how you stick the landing. 

[Grey Kitty]

The good:
1) I stated clearly my time frame
2) I stuck to it.

The bad:
Pretty much everything else... .

I can't argue with your assessment, but I do want to echo what others said and give you credit--it really does sound like you are handling things better than you used to! Keep up the good work!

Anyhow... .regarding "the bad"... .is there anything you wished you had done differently? (I'm NOT asking about what you wish he had done differently )

[formflier]

  I'm proud of myself for sticking to my guns.

 

and you should be!

   


Sure... .we can work through shoulda coulda woulda... .but the big thing is you decided the big picture and stuck to it.

Very proud of you!  Nice work!

FF