I got another message from the ex - she wants to ring me. What is my part in all

[RomanticFool]

I have posted here several times about my split with my exBPD married lover. I have been considering, in an honest way, what my part in this relationship was. I know her part, she is an undiagnosed BPD with waif and hermit characteristics. But what about me?

When she reconnected with me six months into my sexless marriage, (some years after our original relationship which featured years of push/pull, silent treatment, ghosting and finally devaluation and rejection), I was delighted. Why? Because she was my beautiful, enigmatic, femme fatale. I didn't know it was BPD.

When we met up I showed her my wedding photos and she looked genuinely delighted for me. She probably would have been content with a friendship, but I pushed the sexual element. I agreed to meet her partly because I thought her husband, who had cancer years before, had died. It turned out he was alive and well.

In fact our first night of our reconnection/recycle was farcical. She was staying in a hotel in my home town. I was due to meet her there but she said she was worried that her husband might drive down (a distance of 100 miles) to check up on her.

So I ended up paying for a completely different hotel and when she came back she didn't want to have sex. She said her brother had cancer and she was emotionally upset. What she doesn't know is when she came and sat on my lap and we just hugged and kissed (she told me her husband never kissed her) it was one of the most wonderful moments I spent with her. She spent the night back at her hotel and then came back to me in the morning and finally we had sex. She said, "we got there in the end.' I asked her straight after if she felt guilty and she said no. In my co-depdent way, I thought that if she didn't feel guilty then i wasn't going to either.

It takes two to tango and all of that, but the above illustrates that a) she wasn't sure about a sexual relationship and b) that should all have been a serious red flag to me.

After that time our passion was fired up and she became more passionate about the relationship. Sex was often an issue for her and due to her body dysmorphia (even though she is very beautiful) she always wanted me to turn off the lights. As the relationship developed I stopped turning off the lights and told her how beautiful I found her.

At the beginning when she started push/pulling i would call her out on it and very aggressively too. I told her that there would be no repeat of the past where she gave me the silent treatment constantly. The minute she started doing it, I would immediately threaten to leave her. At this point I didn't know about BPD but even if I had, I'm not sure I would have done anything differently because I was obsessed in an unhealthy way with this woman and I battled to control her. Of course I didn't realise she was controlling me.

When she persisted to distance herself, always after we'd had a lovely time together, I told her that the relationship was over. She told me at the time, 'Then I am lost.' I had a heart to heart with her (I always did most of the talking, texting and emailing, often getting one or two sentence replies, she said she wasn't as adept with words as I am) and I agreed to stop threatening to leave. She told me about her 'safe place' and that because she had serious depression (a dopamine deficiency) and she worked closely with her husband, she wasn't as free and available as I was. I told her in no uncertain terms that if she wanted a relationship with me, she could not distance herself from me. It was bad enough that we were both married.

For a time it worked well. We would text throughout the day, when she was able, and sometimes speak on skype, where I would always tell her how beautiful she was. I knew this is what she needed to hear and I was happy to provide. At this time she kept asking me, 'are you mine?' I told her she was the love of my life and that we were soulmates. We seemed bonded by this pact. I upped the ante with the language and said when the poets write about love they talk about us. I think at this point she was as into the relationship as I was.

Even then, every time she came to my home town to stay, or we were going to meet at a hotel, if we had a disagreement about a minor detail, she would threaten not to tell me where the hotel was. Or if we were due to go to a gig together, she would threaten to go alone. I would always pacify her and around this time wen we met for 2 nights we would have sex multiple times.

Fast forward about eighteen months and she started drinking again, when I told her that I didn't want her drinking when we met (by this time she was getting out of control), she told me to fu*k off via text. I went around to her hotel and she didn't answer the door. I was worried about her. Then I got a text at 3am saying she had woken up in her own vomit. She never blamed me, but said she didn't want to stop drinking.

I met her for an art exhibition a couple of weeks after this incident and I told her she was the love of my life. She couldn't even bring herself to say that she loved me anymore. I knew it was the beginning of the end at that time.

A year later she sobered up and we rekindled it all again. Same pattern with her, keen at the beginning and then pulling away, devaluing and eventually making it impossible for the relationship to continue. On this last occasion, she told me her husband found out about us and we could no longer communicate by text. I knew the game was up and walked away.

I already posted about the three word message she sent saying, 'Thinking of you' and then the silent treatment when I subsequently texted and rang her.  No reply. That was on Tuesday. And then this morning I got a message saying, 'I can ring today.' Someone tell me please what is going on. I really don't know anymore. It's been six weeks of no contact and now she wants to talk. Why?

[Infern0]

Can't answer that for you i'm afraid. I'm dealing with contact after 7 months myself.

The likely answer is SOME kind of recycle, but if that's as a primary source (relationship) or as a "friend" who knows

i reccomend to focus on you and what you want, a million unanswered questions about her won't help you.

[RomanticFool]

I agree. Problem is every time she contacts me I am plunged into turmoil. She left it for 5 weeks before getting in touch. Then didn't respond when I rang her on Tuesday. Now 2 days later she wants to talk. I know the answer is no contact. It's just so very hard. It's like I don't want to believe she has BPD. I'm hoping for some rational explanation. I may as well go to the local mental hospital and ask there.

[Skip]

The reason she didn't respond is that you bombed her with emotional and accusatory messages... .it makes sense that she waited for you to cool down. I wouldn't call that the silent treatment - you went off the grid.  

You are really at a moment of truth here. Do you want to put your marriage back together or do you want to move over to the Saving board and work on relationship (sex-capade) recovery. We will support you in either. No judgement.

I think the things to be aware of:

1) If you continue the joint affair, your marriage will fail. Don't wait for a Tuesday surprise from your wife turning your life upside down to see it. Every day that you occupy your heart with your affair partner it is unavailable for your wife. You say she is "sexless", but understand that this affair plays heavily into your marriage woes. Your passion has been mostly played out to the other women for the entire marriage in a style that fits you and her. This has prevented you from finding the "style" that fits you and your wife.

2) Understand what an affair is. I like to compare it to a 3 legged stool. The spouse is two legs and the affair partner is one (they fill a specialized need missing in the marriage). Neither relationship stands on its own. Remove any leg and the whole thing falls over and is dysfunctional.



3) Eventually your affair partners marriage will also fail. Most likely when that happens, she will rebound with you for a bit (you might even leave your wife when that happens) and then after the rebound healing, she will leave you to find a more complete relationship with someone else - by complete I mean one that doesn't need two men to satisfy her.

4) Each time you recycle, you are not returning back to the start/status quo. We often think that - but life is flowing, not static. Rather, there is a steady degradation going on in all 4 relationships... .things are systematically going sour and breaking down in all four love relationship fronts. A crash is coming.

5) There are signs of sex addiction in this whole thing. It will help to read about it. Many sex addicts have to hit rock bottom before making their way out.

This is gloomy, for sure. It is a reality that I have seen played out 100's of times on these boards. I know your emotions are pulling you strongly to jump back into this affair, or to live a life holding out for recovery of the affair.

You're in a really tough place. Go with your "addiction" or  rehabilitate your life. A lot depends on your next decisions - do you take the easy one or the hard one.

Good mental health is hard. Its about making tough choices at times like this.

[Infern0]

I agree. Problem is every time she contacts me I am plunged into turmoil. She left it for 5 weeks before getting in touch. Then didn't respond when I rang her on Tuesday. Now 2 days later she wants to talk. I know the answer is no contact. It's just so very hard. It's like I don't want to believe she has BPD. I'm hoping for some rational explanation. I may as well go to the local mental hospital and ask there.

Its a difficult situation.

Putting aside "should" for a minute, what do you  WANT.

You should think about that        

[RomanticFool]

Hi Skip,

That's a pretty accurate summing up of the whole situation.

There are signs of sex addiction in this whole thing. It will help to read about it. Many sex addicts have to hit rock bottom before making their way out.

I have in the past been to SLAA. I am already in AA. I find SLAA to be a strange and prescriptive organisation, especially with regard to the HOW method. I tried to use the AA programme to deal with my issues.

f you continue the joint affair, your marriage will fail. Don't wait for a Tuesday surprise from your wife turning your life upside down to see it. Every day that you occupy your heart with your affair partner it is unavailable for your wife. You say she is "sexless", but understand that this affair plays heavily into your marriage woes. Your passion has been mostly played out to the other women for the entire marriage in a style that fits you and her. This has prevented you from finding the "style" that fits you and your wife.

I know all of this is true. I have almost willed to be caught at times. By the way, I didn't say my wife was sexless, I said our marriage is. We haven't made love for 8 years: for 6 years of the marriage and 2 years prior to getting married. Before we decided to tie the knot, I said to my wife I wanted to work out our sex issues. She agreed and then we both just got swept up in the wedding arrangements. At that time I felt that I just wanted companionship and some headspace from messed up women. My wife and I have been together for 10 years and my sex conduct was addictive before I got into the relationship and I carried it over. Apart from my borderline I have had other flings too, but it was when the borderline came back into my life that things changed in my head. I felt trapped by the idea of being in a sexless marriage but I feel love and affection for my wife. Of course it is not the passion that I feel for the borderline - your stool analogy is spot on - and I probably should not have got married until I dealt with these issues. But I just figured with going to AA and getting older things would work themselves out. In my head, I am always comparing my wife to the borderline. Given the fact the borderline is 14 years older than her, it seems a bit odd that I always comes down on her side. That is what has made me think it must be love with the borderline.

Eventually your affair partners marriage will also fail. Most likely when that happens, she will rebound with you for a bit (you might even leave your wife when that happens) and then after the rebound healing, she will leave you to find a more complete relationship with someone else - by complete I mean one that doesn't need two men to satisfy her.

I don't think this is true. She is never going to leave her husband. She is 60 years old. Apparently he has autism and they don't have a good relationship. I don't believe this, I think he is her caregiver but being BPD she gets bored. She also has a son who lives at home and sounds like he has BPD. She is never leaving that situation.

Each time you recycle, you are not returning back to the start/status quo. We often think that - but life is flowing, not static. Rather, there is a steady degradation going on in all 4 relationships... .things are systematically going sour and breaking down in all four love relationship fronts. A crash is coming.

I think you are right, although no crash is coming. The worst that will happen is we will just break contact. She has played this game for years, not just with me, and is expert at it. Her husband has seen other women too. I don't think he cares much what she does as long as she provides a roof over his head (she has all the money apparently).

Good mental health is hard. Its about making tough choices at times like this.

I agree. We just spoke on the phone. In a very calm manner I told her the reasons I walked away: the disappearances, the year's drinking and the abuse I have suffered at her hands. She said, 'I don't want a relationship with somebody who keeps criticising me.' I told her we don't have a relationship because five weeks ago I walked away and she didn't say anything about still wanting me to stay around.  I asked 'What would you do if somebody treated you the way you've treated me?' She kind of stuttered and said, 'I don't know.' She told me I never listen to her. I replied, "OK I'll just listen. What is your take on the situation?' She said, 'I can't talk now.' She was angry. End of conversation.

I am aware I am in a terrible situation. I'll tell you what I think will happen. Not much in her world. She will do what she has always done. She clearly still wants an attachment with me but I am beginning to change. A bit like once you have been to AA you can't keep drinking and be comfortable with it. In the face of all the evidence here, I know what I am dealing with. I keep hoping she will say something to put everything into perspective (she sounds so sane at times) but she has no answers or explanations and it breaks my heart to be right about her.

As far as I am concerned, our relationship is over. All that's happening now is the death rattle. I can't go back into that situation knowing what I know now.

Thanks for your help. I need it.

[roberto516]

I agree. We just spoke on the phone. In a very calm manner I told her the reasons I walked away: the disappearances, the year's drinking and the abuse I have suffered at her hands. She said, 'I don't want a relationship with somebody who keeps criticising me.' I told her we don't have a relationship because five weeks ago I walked away and she didn't say anything about still wanting me to stay around.  I asked 'What would you do if somebody treated you the way you've treated me?' She kind of stuttered and said, 'I don't know.' She told me I never listen to her. I replied, "OK I'll just listen. What is your take on the situation?' She said, 'I can't talk now.' She was angry. End of conversation.

It's a tough situation for sure. But I wanted to let you know that this quote sums up our conversations after breaking up. Whenever I tried to help her see it from my side it was "I don't know". And then when I would give her the chance to further elaborate on feelings she would say "I don't want to talk about this."

She even told me the "why would i want to be with someone who said mean things?" And I would sit there wondering to myself. "Yeah can you imagine how angry you'd be if you gave me your all, and when you asked me for more of a 50/50 split because I'm depressed I up and left you?"

I remember after the 2nd discard asking her when she made the decision to end it because I knew it was coming for 2 weeks. Her response was "RIGHT NOW I DID!" It's a lose lose situation. I feel like you know what's best for you.

But we've all been there. It's the dream that it will all be what it once was. Yes relationships gets stale. But there's still a partnership and both partners try and work on it. It's not possible with them. We'd have to be perfect all the time. We all know it. And the second we stand up for ourselves and express valid feelings we are tossed. Kudos to you for leaving though. It's probably why she wants you back. Just so she can be back in control, and leave you. It's a control thing with them. I would tread very lightly.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks for your feedback Roberto. It is exactly like trying to have a relationship with a 3 year old. Absolutely no sense or intelligence at all. Isn't it weird to think that these people are like emotional children? I have always thought her intelligent and interesting with regard to art but without emotional intelligence it's like she is vacuous. I didn't really want to see if before but it's all too clear now. I think in the past I allowed her to fit into my fantasy because I wanted the sexual relationship and the passion she triggered in me.

You mention that we are trying to recapture how it used to be but the thing is, it has always been like this. I just didn't allow myself to see how emotionally incapable she is because you don't expect it in a grown woman. I always thought there must be more there but there isn't.

Now that I have discovered how emotionally void she is, I can feel my feelings changing.

[roberto516]

That's good insight romantic fool.

And yes a large part of me misses the sexual side of the relationship. But then I have to remember that after the idealization phase she started using it as a way to gain control of me. Even joking about how after we made love would I take her to the mall. Like I laughed it off thinking it was a joke but it wasn't. The second I told her how great it was she used that to her advantage. Near the end we would make love maybe once every 2 weeks. And it was like paperwork. Routine, no passion whatsoever from her. It's sickening. I can't believe a human being can be like this. Witholding it from me, and then wondering why I don't ask her to make love. Emotional child. As you said.

Sometimes talking about it just helps clarify exactly how messed up it is. It seems like it has helped you. Again, kudos for loving yourself enough to come here first before jumping right in for a possible recycle.

[RomanticFool]

I think I must have some sanity because I just realised the futility of it all today. No conversation for almost 6 weeks and I get petulance and unjustified indignatiion. Most people would at least say, 'nice to hear your voice.' Never was the emotional regression and lack of empathy clearer.

After she said, 'I don't want a relationship with somebody who criticises me.' I said, 'I don't want one with somebody who treats me like crap.' She was ready to hang up the phone.

[Skip]

I think you are right, although no crash is coming. The worst that will happen is we will just break contact.

Be careful not to underestimate what the other three people in this double triangle are capable of... .

Never was the emotional regression and lack of empathy clearer.

I think you mean compassion. Her compassion for herself exceeds her compassion for you. It also exceeds her compassion for her husband.

What about you? How is your compassion?

What is right and what is wrong gets really blurred in a double love triangle.

When you were in SLAA, what message did you take home from there?

[OptimusRhyme]

I think you mean compassion. Her compassion for herself exceeds her compassion for you. It also exceeds her compassion for her husband.

Normally I'm with the reframing, skip, but this is really a stretch. Hell, the definition of compassion is "sympathy and sorrow for another".  I understand the danger of painting a BPDex completely black, saying they're evil or morally bankrupt. That said, whether nefarious or tragic, the functional result is that romanticfool's ex lacks an ability to tolerate criticism, to empathize, and to work through her feelings. I don't see how dressing it up as a relative comparison of values helps. 

[RomanticFool]

Not saying you've missed somebody is to do with empathy isn't it? What I want from her is connected to wanting her to love me. You can't have love without empathy. So I think I do mean empathy.

However, compassion is also relevant. At the moment I have more compassion for my wife than the borderline. She married me in good faith and deserves the respect of having at least a warning if I'm going to sleep with someone else. My problem is whatever guilt I once felt  around infidelity gave way to selfishness a long time ago. The irony of my indignation at the borderline for doing something similar is not lost on.me. However, I did suffer from deep depression for 18 months and am in terrible pain, so karma is paying me back.

What I took from SLAA is that once I get emotionally and sexually attached to somebody I am powerless.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks Optimus. Let's say that she.lacks empathy and compassion for others. I like Skip's tough love because I have also been acting without compassion or empathy for my wife when I cheat on her. He is holding the.mirror up to me, as we say in AA.

[OptimusRhyme]

Thanks Optimus. Let's say that she.lacks empathy and compassion for others. I like Skip's tough love because I have also been acting without compassion or empathy for my wife when I cheat on her. He is holding the.mirror up to me, as we say in AA.

Absolutely, the reason I value the bitter pills and tough love skip is laying down is because they usually compel us to focus on ourselves, our actions, and our values, our self-judgment.

Drawing a distinction between a partner's (or any externality really) unwillingness or inability to achieve a result seems dangerous to me, because it leads us away from the actionable conclusion, the unachieved result. You can forgive someone for unskilled actions without discerning how much of their available resources and effort they were putting into it. Maybe I'm being pedantic. Hard to say.  

[RomanticFool]

Hi Optimus,

Amen to the tough love point. I don't think you are being pedantic. Since the borderline is totally unable to see anything outside of her own needs and desires, those of us with empathy become appalled/bored/hurt/perplexed in equal measure. Her inability to exercise something which so many of us take for granted, namely emotional intelligence, probably makes the world a frightening place. My natural instinct is towards having empathy/compassion for her but then I remember that I had my heart ripped out my a 3 year in a woman's body.

[Rayban]

@Romantic

You have to decide what you want to do here. Otherwise you'll stay addicted to the twist and turns of the roller coaster ride.  I believe that along with the sex, you enjoy the adrenaline rush of being with her. Part of it played out today. You were hoping she would contact you, otherwise you  would have blocked her from contacting you. Wondering what she wants this time, or wanting to know what she meant etc. This brings excitement to your life.

The problem is that she'll keep doing what she's always done, which is find away to set up shop in your head. She left you with the wonderful parcel of, "I can't talk anymore " and now you're stuck pinning for her. She walks away, while you're left ruminating.

Re-read your posts after you left her the three messages. This should bring you clarity.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Rayban,

I think what has happened this week has gone a long way to ensuring the relationship is not rekindled. I know it doesn't sound like it from some of my posts, but I really have had enough.

Undoubtedly there is a thrill and excitement in dealing with her, only because of the promise of sex at the end of it. I am sure I am also a little addicted to the drama because my home life is not exciting sexually.

However, ultimately constant thwarted desire, abuse and yearning is not what I want. The reason I left the door open is I was struggling to accept that she is indeed a typical BPD. I've been hoping that there is something different about her, something I can lay my hat on to justify a possible reconnection. But the phone call I had with her today was probably a classic presentation of a borderline and what's more she knows that I know.

As I said previously, the things that are happening this week are the death rattle of the relationship. Neither one of us  could go back to how it was because I have exposed her underbelly and she probably hates me for it right now. She may continue to contact me, she may not, but what I am never going to do again is allow her to damage me.

[roberto516]

However, ultimately constant thwarted desire, abuse and yearning is not what I want. The reason I left the door open is I was struggling to accept that she is indeed a typical BPD. I've been hoping that there is something different about her, something I can lay my hat on to justify a possible reconnection. But the phone call I had with her today was probably a classic presentation of a borderline and what's more she knows that I know.

Outside of my love for her still being present this is what contributed to the recycle. I was hoping it wasn't what I knew it was. I wanted to prove to myself that she wasn't BPD, and that we could make it work if I did the right thing. Well that theory of being BPD was definitely confirmed as I felt the devalue for a week before I obliged her request that we spend a weekend apart (which kicked up her abandonment) and then her text that she doesn't want to be in a relationship.

Your situation is different for sure. But I get it. Just wanting to make sure. Almost hoping against hope that they aren't what we fear them to be. But you have the insight. And as you said. Is sex worth all of this? It was probably contributing to my recycle too. I missed that part about us. She's beautiful. Absolutely stunning. But you helped remind me that the intimacy is not worth what comes with it.

[Skip]

Neither one of us  could go back to how it was because I have exposed her underbelly and she probably hates me for it right now. She may continue to contact me, she may not, but what I am never going to do again is allow her to damage me.

I'm not so sure you exposed any belly that both of you have already not seen.  

I noticed the terms you used above (highlighted). You didn't say end my infidelities, refocus/resolve on my marriage - you said " I am never going to do again is allow her to damage me".  This is a little like saying, I'm never going to drink too much alcohol.

You need a hard stop.

This has not been a office fling for six months - this has been years (decade). And it is not the only affair, as you say.

I'm not picking on you, but as Rayban says, you are addicted to the sex and the drama - and I add that you are taking extreme risks for it.  

If you read the other cases here, you will see that there are many guys like you who are come back here a year after one of these events struggling with a wife and family who finally walked out on them.

The healthy thing to do is to end all infidelities and turn back to your wife and try to resolve things - and if you can't - get free of your marriage to pursue a women who is available and looking for a full partner. You've normalized this long term "3 legged stool" - its doesn't seem so wrong because you have become conditioned to it.

The clocks ticks and your opportunities to find true happiness are ticking away with it.

Not a judgement, friend, truly. I just want to be sure this is said so you are walking forward, eyes wide open.

This girl lights you up, she is a conquest, the push/pull is the hunt, the sex it a prize... .

If you loved her and respected her and you both wanted to make a life together - tat would be one thing - but that has never been on the table in a serious way.

[Skip]

the definition of compassion is "sympathy and sorrow for another".  I understand the danger of painting a BPDex completely black, saying they're evil or morally bankrupt. That said, whether nefarious or tragic, the functional result is that romanticfool's ex lacks an ability to tolerate criticism, to empathize, and to work through her feelings. I don't see how dressing it up as a relative comparison of values helps.  

I rephrased this to keep us on the same page with what the concern is:

Compassion is sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it. ~ Webster

Empathy is the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts... .~ Webster

It seemed to me that RomanticFool concern was mostly about "desire to alleviate it".

[Rayban]

@Romantic

I just wanted to add that what I write might seem direct, but that's because I've been where you are right now.  My relationship with my BPDex was over. I also layer it all on the line with her, vowing never to speak to her ever. I  would waver between blocking her for weeks, only to unblock her with the hope she would reach out. Eventually she would. I would go against common sense, and against what family and friends who were begging me to stay away. I didn't listen.

I thought at one point I could handle my BPDex, and have occasional sex with her and forget about the rest. The end result is that I ended up screwing myself. She came around, we hooked up. In exchange I was left a mess. She knew I was trying to use her, and she threw it back 10 fold. I was left with the legacy of turning into the monster she built me up to me, because I left the door open for her to do so. My friends and family are still there for me ... .but everytime I bring up the subject Of my BPDex, they dont dwell on it. It's like they're saying ... .  I told you so.

Acceptance and doing what's right by me, and the people who love and support me, is what finally made me realize I HAVE to stay away from her. It's baby steps, gaining confidence knowing I was doing right by me.

You have this opportunity. Maybe this last interaction with her is what might push you to get closer with your wife. Use that energy to start fresh with your wife. The sex is 150% better when mutual healthy love is involved. Don't let list and infatuation blind you.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks Skip and Rayban,

I appreciate all of your help. I think the relationship with the exBPD is over. It isn't that I want it to be over or I am more resolved than ever or she isn't interested. None of that is true. The truth is it has just run its course. I can sense it. We are both behaving differently towards each other and as you said before skip, you never go back to the beginning, there is an erosion and a deterioration in the quality of it and I think too much of myself to ever accept that. I am not going to contact her further. Knowing what I know about her has affected the way I feel. If she ever expressed a true desire to be with me ie leave her marriage, I would in the past have given it a go, but she has never done nor will she ever. I do not want to be in a double love triangle anymore. It is depressing, devastating and boring in equal measure. While I may crave the excitement of hearing from her, I find the constant pain she has put me through boring in so far as it is stopping me from getting on with my life.

I am going to try to rekindle things with my wife. We are going to Vegas for my birthday this month and I am going to try to rebuild our long lost intimacy. It won't be easy but I am at least going to try. I am not convinced my wife is totally without some of the BPD issues, but she does not lack empathy per se, but she is also not always emotionally available. We both need to work on being there intimately for each other.