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Author Topic: How to stop FOG?  (Read 919 times)
takingandsending
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« on: May 22, 2017, 11:37:28 AM »

Hi all. I am in midst of divorce with uBPDstbxw. We are beginning our parallel parenting journey. Xw insists we must communicate better to co-parent. I go for parallel parenting, especially now in midst of a collaborative divorce process, because our communication sucked while together and has no cause for improvement going through the divorce.

Here's my question/issue: I typically have my wife set on Do Not Disturb on my cell phone so that I don't read her texts upon receipt but when I am in a calm place to view them. This is leading to some problems. We have not had great success supporting facetime/phone time with S6 and S11 and had both agreed in last mediation to drop it except when one parent is vacationing with kids for a week or more, at which point we agreed to every other day contact. I find it hard to be cooking a meal or getting kids ready for bed and making time for a call. She has made two token efforts for facetime when we first separated and has not offered or affirmed my requests since then. To be fair, I haven't made a lot of requests, because I do see the boys every week and do extracurricular activity with the oldest on two of my non-custodial days. Still, I have had two facetime with them since separation 3 months ago; xw has had about ten - twelve facetime calls in that period.

Back to the point: I received a text from xw asking for FT call after we had just agreed to drop it. I didn't see her text until late that night. I didn't respond as boys were already asleep. I got blasted with blame, guilt, typical stuff the next day. She had changed her weekend plans and was in town (and wanted S6 to stay with her instead of sitters that I had arranged while S11 and I attended an event), had emotional crisis, needed to connect to boys, I was a ass for not supporting, she is going to re-insert it into parent plan, she always responds to my many, many texts; she rarely texts me and only respectfully so. It's absolutely projection, but why do I still initially believe it when I read it or hear it? I feel bad that I don't respond, but I don't respond because I know communication with her is bad for me. What am I supposed to do here? How do I stop that initial reaction of "She has a point. I should have ... ."? It's so ingrained in me. And it just ends up confusing things. I know that she sends 20 texts to my one, but for a second, I am questioning whether I have sent her a lot of texts recently. After all of this time, I still get hooked by BPD projection. It's like politicians - throw something so outrageously false out there and say it with conviction and watch how many people buy in. Why does this work? I want an innoculation, a cure ... .I want her out of my life but that is not going to happen with young children.

So feel free to share your boundary building experiences, because apparently I still suck at them.
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2017, 06:31:13 PM »

Hi takingandsending,

I can understand feeling like you're walking on eggshells when your ex demands that she FT's right away without thinking if it's convenient for them, for you. A pwBPD lack impulse control, can't regulate or self sooth and are emotionally arrested at the young age of child. You have an S6 and S11, remember when they had tantrums, maybe they demanded to have candy right before dinner but your can't reason with them? I think about S5 and how his tantrums mimic his mother's unreasonable requests, that being said tantrums come and go, same with a pwBPD's feelings, they cycle rapidly and you might find her in a different mood later on. That's BPD, an adult with the emotional equivalent of a 2 or 3 year old.
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2017, 09:23:52 PM »

I also suck at the boundary setting. I never say no to anything involving more time with mine. It's not always the most convenient set up but i do it for a couple reasons. They like being at my place more and I'm afraid where they'll be if not with me. She has never been able to follow the custody schedule and constantly sending me text beginning with "Can you... .

I feel I've created a monster. I'm not recommending what I'm doing but for the most part I feel the kids are thriving so whatever. Recently I did for the first time call her on this but I wish I hadn't I think she felt hurt. I also feel that there may be a bit of her trying to recycle or wanting to have some kind of change in our relationship. Again I stay as nc as possible day to day. I don't want to hurt her with this, it's more to protect myself.

Try not to take it personal it's a hideous disorder. It brings nothing but misery to the people who have it and the people who love them. Read the text as they  come. Stay calm. set a timer as a nightly reminder. let the FaceTime thing run it's course til the next issue.  I'm not saying it will be easier or better but you will adapt and be better equipped to deal and cope with your ex.
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 09:04:06 PM »

wow.  This is horrible.  I am headed down the same road with a breakup.  I dread what it will be like once it's all the way said and done.  It sounds like the pwBPD just keep playing the same games.  It's almost like you're still in the same relationship with them.  The dreaded text messages are what I go through now.  I absolutely hate when she sends text messages.  It's always at the least opportune time and its always a mood changer for me.  When I talk to people who know people who are bipolar they always look at me as if my situation isn't that bad.  I guess it isn't I don't know.  What I go through is extreme psychological abuse.     
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40days_in_desert
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 11:58:28 PM »

Here is an example of FOG attempt just a couple of hours ago. D15 has lived with me full time for the last year and I had to take her to urgent care for a possible bladder infection. ustbxBPD, D15s mom, has very little interaction with D15 but I text her to tell her what is going on with D15. When ustbxBPD says that she wants to go to the doctor to be there with D15, D15 starts to have an anxiety attack and said she doesn't want her mom to be there. I tell ustbxBPD that maybe it isn't a good time then ustbxBPD spirals downward. Here is an exact text of what she sent me which I did not share with D15. I'll use "H" for D15's name.

"Rid any intention of talking to me or going back with H. Could you consider that possibly she didn't want to make you feel bad by wanting me there? That it would hurt your feelings? You did the same with (my son from previous marriage). He was made to feel guilty for wanting to come to me. It's ok for her to want her mom. It's not ok for father to raise now a young woman without her mom. I'm sure you taught her otherwise and to be your buddy, but it's not ok. And I hope you won't take the natural need for her mom away from her to satisfy your own selfish needs. I'm on my way. Don't fill her head with crap like you did with the others. This is not about you."

1) I know and D15 knows that I have encouraged the relationship and have told xw several times to feel free to ask D15 to go somewhere to spend time together. She has done that twice in a year with one of those times being a successful time together by D15's explanation.
2) She is the one that has removed herself from the mother-daughter relationship. I simply want D15 to have a relationship with both parents.
3) I don't know who the "others" are and what crap I filled their heads with but I know that I did no such thing with anyone. She has alienated her own family members herself with her actions, words and lifestyle and blames it on me so maybe this is who they are? I don't bother asking. I'll only get "You know. I shouldn't have to tell you." (FOG)
4) Xw finally sent a text 40 min after I sent word that we were leaving for urgent care to say that she was on her way. 30 minutes later she said she was almost there and has D15 been seen. I told ustbxwBPD that we were already done and leaving. ustbxwBPD lives 10 min from the urgent care facility. Actions vs words - D15 has seen this too many times. Even though D15 didn't want mom in the exam room with her, she was disappointed that she never showed but not surprised.

How I avoided the FOG in this situation was simply having my focus on my daughter and her immediate needs and not think about the text from ustbxBPD. As far as D15 could knew, nothing was going on between myself and her mom which in itself negates the accusations in the above text because I was focusing on D15. After all was said and done, ustbxBPD's actions helped me process the words and therefore no FOG. Also knowing who you are and what kind of parent you are to your children helps the FOG turn to light. It also helps to understand the struggle of BPDs not having the ability to cope with the results of their actions in a healthy way and this is simply their way to process. Not who I am and not who any of you are that are dealing with the same or similar BPD person in your life.
By the way... .I never and will not respond to the above text. Will screenshot it and put it in the file with the other couple thousand I have saved just in case.
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“A rogue does not laugh in the same way that an honest man does; a hypocrite does not shed the tears of a man of good faith. All falsehood is a mask; and however well made the mask may be, with a little attention we may always succeed in distinguishing it from the true face.”
― Alexandre Dumas
takingandsending
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 01:09:34 AM »

Thanks, 40days. My stbxw could have stood in for your xw and written that post verbatim. Can I ask, though, do you get hooked by any of it? Like in point 3), do you tell yourself this, which to me, means you are still reacting on some level to the FOG. I know that with practice, it becomes more automatic, but I still find the occasional projections which hook me.

I will say that before we were in the divorce process, my steady boundaries around attacking speech curtailed a lot of her efforts to "communicate" which were mostly efforts to blame. But, now in the divorce process, my boundaries have actually opened because I don't deal with it day to day. I need to re-establish them, let her know that I am not responding to her texts immediately - she can call if it's urgent. It still is a core value of mine to treat people with kindness and respect. Because she can't do that, I need to re-establish my boundaries for communication clearly and consistently with her. I realize that I have been playing nice to try to secure the parent time that I want with my boys. It isn't working.
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40days_in_desert
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 10:32:06 AM »

takingandsending - yes I do get hooked sometimes. In a sense that there is still often an initial internal reaction but affected very little by FOG. I struggle mostly with wanting to respond with logic but don't because it only makes things worse. I have worked hard on my issues over the past two years since separation which was me not feeling like I was good enough. This dates back to issues in childhood. Although I will always have to deal with this to some degree for a long time, I know and feel like I am good enough. 
Here are some points that help me:

1) Knowing that I have been the best father (loving, caring, spending quality time, providing emotional and physical needs) and the worst father approximately 30 times each according to her over the past two years. This means that there is a pattern of her perception changing while my actions and involvement with our children has been consistent. It's her, not me.
2) My relationship with my kids. It is what it is although I would like to see them more than I do. Oldest lives with me full time and youngest four I have every other Fri-Sun and every Thursday.
2) I have had dozens of people tell me that I am doing the right things for my children both emotionally and physically without the same perception changes like my xw has. Not one person. The people that personally witness my involvement and actions speak for themselves. For those who do not personally witness my involvement (T, long distant friends, etc), an accurate description of what I do is the key when they share their opinions of what kind of father they feel that I am. xw may not believe me but she doesn't define the truth only her own truth. In summary, xw is the only person that has the negative perceptions at times and nobody else to corroborate with.
3) Reading books like Walking on Eggshells, Splitting, Loving Someone With BPD, Boundaries, Beyond Boundaries, etc. keeps things in perspective as to what the driving force is behind her words. To meet her own needs, not mine or our children even though I believe that she thinks the opposite. Keep reading and learning.
4) Boundaries - yes I am guilty of softening my boundaries but she fortunately/unfortunately she provides constant reminders that I cannot do this. My boundaries become less and less soft. It's like we have amnesia every time the crazy-making subsides. Like Proverbs 26:11 says, "As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly."
5) That her actions rarely match her words. This being true, how can I possibly believe that her FOG can have an effect on me as to who I am? Although I do admit sometimes it has an initial negative effect. On a scale of 1-100, it was at an 80-90 two years ago and was fairly constant and now maybe 10-20 and lasts a couple of minutes to maybe ten minutes. Celebrate the progress.
6) I have xw on DND for text and changed her name to "STBX" in my phone. This helps me psychologically when I see that I have a text or call from her by not seeing her actual name. She rarely calls as it is easier to spew FOG behind a screen than over the phone or in person.
7) Have an active form of exercise that you enjoy to decompress. I bike as it helps relieve stress and I enjoy it. FOG can't keep up if I'm going 18-20 mph!
8) Last thing that I will mention is the same thing that I have heard many people on this board and elsewhere: document everything. I screenshot every text exchange and email. I have a journal to record our interactions. While this is beneficial for potential custody issues, it also helps by periodically reading through some of our previous interactions as a reminder. Especially when there is calm and peace but that peace never lasts does it? Some sales training I was once involved with mentioned, "If you want to know the future, bring it to the present."
I wish you the best and we are here for each other. If there is anything that I can do for you or anyone on here, I'm here.
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“A rogue does not laugh in the same way that an honest man does; a hypocrite does not shed the tears of a man of good faith. All falsehood is a mask; and however well made the mask may be, with a little attention we may always succeed in distinguishing it from the true face.”
― Alexandre Dumas
AnuDay
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2017, 01:43:22 PM »

takingandsending - yes I do get hooked sometimes. In a sense that there is still often an initial internal reaction but affected very little by FOG. I struggle mostly with wanting to respond with logic but don't because it only makes things worse. I have worked hard on my issues over the past two years since separation which was me not feeling like I was good enough. This dates back to issues in childhood. Although I will always have to deal with this to some degree for a long time, I know and feel like I am good enough. 
Here are some points that help me:

I just want to say thank you for sharing all of this.  This post was very helpful to me.  I didn't even know there was a FOG, but now that I am aware of what she is doing I can defend myself.  Such a complicated illness.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2017, 04:24:55 PM »

AnuDay,

You are welcome. There are really good articles and information on FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) on this site. I started my bpdfamily life on the Improving board a few years back - a time that I was in fear of divorcing my wife. Her emotional dysregulations were more extreme than they currently are, we were in marriage counseling, and counselor shared diagnosis of BPD, and this website as a resource.

There is a lot that we, as partners of pwBPD, do that make things worse (primarily anything reactive). There is a lot of commonality in our experience, our struggles with self-esteem, etc. It is worth while to see your own part in the interactions, so that you can learn how not to make it worse. Along the way, I also learned that I could not make it better. I get frustrated that I still have reactions to FOG because I do know better. And while I no longer believe the attacks and complaints about me, I still find I question myself and what I have or have not done, particularly the more outrageous the projection is. And this problem is not isolated to my BPDxw. It can happen even with work colleagues. Best I can tell, my family of origin (FOO) was filled with enough blame/shame that I developed a pretty unhealthy (guilty) view of myself. So, when most people like me, tell me I am a decent person, and one loud, strident voice says I am an awful person, that voice gets my attention, and inside, I quake. Shouldn't be like that - I admit it.

And, living with a BPD spouse for 20 years hasn't helped, but the gift is that I am working on it now. It's hard to slow down the reactivity, the fear that I did something wrong, but like 40days says, I know that I am being the best person that I can, that I try pretty diligently to listen, understand and speak with no intent to harm. My sense of self is strong enough to know the truth.
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2017, 09:32:39 PM »

I totally get how nightmarish those text bombardments are. My BF still gets them regularly from is uBPDx who he left 6 years ago. They're coparenting and in regular contact, she still uses him as her best friend and emotional dumping ground, to which he says whatever, it doesn't change his life any and he doesn't reciprocate and it seems to keep her calm... .However, the FOG text-dumps continue any time she's upset about anything. We recently tried to set boundaries on communication to limit the topics she attacks (this was in response to her contacting me for the first time since she learned we were together 3 years ago) and we delineated specifically what wasn't her business to comment on. However, our BPD counselor told us that she will continue the dumps; we did the right thing setting limits and we will have to reply to those dumps with reaffirmations of what is and isn't apporpriate, saying "please see the e-mail we discussed this in already" as needed to not re-engage, but it won't necessarily actually stop the attacks. He said to try to see it like a 3yo throwing a tantrum; that's their process, they do have to go through it, just try to de-escalate either by not replying or reaffirming a boundary you've already said exactly the same way, short and sweet, til it finally sinks in. He said with stability in the message and in life patterns, it gets easier. He also said that changes in life situations or new boundaries throw them for a loop and make them prone to challenge us, test us, poke at us to engage 10x more than usual, and we just have to stay firm, sticking to the agreed-upon plan, trying to remain calm and de-escalate, and wait it out. Once they get used to things being a certain way, they get less unstable. Best of luck!
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RaisenCane

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 09:13:34 PM »

Takingandsending,
I haven't been on this forum for a while and came across your post last night.  I completely understand what you're going through and this was a good reminder how to handle. I have a very hard time staying out of the FOG and then I JADE with my uxW when she pushes my buttons by saying I don't provide for our 5 children (I provide for 95% of their financial needs and we split time 50/50). Sometimes these exchanges would go on for hours.
Anyway, I needed to ask her to switch weeks with me as I need to be out of town for work.  The week I wanted to switch to happens to be me my birthday week. As I hit send on the text, I braced myself for impact and then it started. She wouldn't agree to my request and suggested something I didn't fully understand and added some personal insults. I clarified with her and was wrong which brought another nasty response and another suggestion. I asked if they could spend the night with me the night before my birthday (my 50th) so I could wake up with them in the house but that wasn't okay so I finally agreed to her suggestion.
The most important thing was that I didn't respond to any of the personal attacks or even acknowledge them and kept on point with the change in the week and it felt really, really good. She got her digs in and the last word and I'm okay with that. I'm finally coming to terms with the fact that no matter what she says, I'm a good father, a good man and I was a good husband.
Had I not read this thread last night, I'm not sure I would have handled it this way and want to thank you all for that. It was really helpful.
Hang in there. We've been separated for a year and a half (divorce was final in May) and have been dealing with her affair for 2 1/2 years and I am finally getting to this point.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 10:49:51 PM »

RaisenCane,

Thank you for sharing that. I am so glad any of our stories and experiences help anybody, really.

Happy 50th by the way. You are smarter than me by 3 years because I was 51.5 years old when I finally left uBPDxw. I am glad you have 50/50 - something I am still working toward. I hope you have a great week with your children. And thanks for the encouragement. I am doing the best I can for my kids and myself.
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 12:45:26 AM »

Excerpt
, had emotional crisis, needed to connect to boys

My ex said something like this once. He never validated my arm chair BPD Dx, but his ears peeked up,  "the children aren't responsible for her feelings."

We stopped the nightly calls shortly after she moved out.  It was an is an issue with then S4. It's not an issue anymore, and I told her numerous times that although it wasn't written into the custody stipulation, she could call once a day they were with me.  Her anxiety, for which she is clinically diagnosed,  gets to her.  She only calls when it does.  Last week,  "I was worried if D5 was OK,  and wanted to call.  I know it's your time,  but I need to check if she was OK. " of course I let the kids talk to her.  This wasn't about the kids,  however,  but about her and her anxiety and feelings.  I didn't even remind her it was fine with me of she called every night.  I told her so many times.  I'm tired of it,  and I'm not responsible for her feelings   Being cool (click to insert in post)

How to inoculate the kids going forward? I'll take that one day at a time.  Being the child of a BPD, I know that it's necessary.
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 09:49:21 AM »

Please share thoughts on how to innoculate the children.  My uBPDgf moved out a month ago.  I feel so much better now.  I dont have to answer her calls.  I prefer to talk by texts since I have more control of the conversation flow that way.  And when she sends the texts there is no need for me to react instantly.  Most of the time when she texts me or calls its about filling her emotional need.  I totally ignored her a couple of days ago and she blew a gasket.  So glad she moved out.  Unnecessary stress.  We have to start standing up for ourselves and our needs.
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