Not Even Sure Where I Belong

[toomanydogs]

I am tired this morning. Physically tired. Emotionally tired. I have a good day planned, which includes dinner with friends tonight, so I know I'll feel energized later, but right now... .Not so much.

I titled this post as I did because I truly don't know where I belong on this forum or if I even belong on this forum at all.

Here's the thing. My husband has been diagnosed with both schizophrenia and a PD, parts BPD and NPD.

First, let me admit that there's not a doubt in my mind that I love my husband. But in what capacity? I have more than 20 years on my husband, and initially when we got together more than ten years ago, he told me that he'd always been attracted to older women.

I wondered about that even back then, suspecting that he was possibly looking for a mother. For the record, I am a great mother, a pretty good wife, and a dreadful girlfriend.

As a mother of small children, I knew how to put my kids' needs before mine. I knew that a screaming baby took priority over my desire to sleep. I could do that, and I did it well. As my kids got older, it was difficult for me to pull back from that role, and I had to consciously remind myself that the needs of a teenager are very different from those of a baby. What I'm trying to say is that as a mother, I remained fairly mindful of a healthy role.

As a wife, I know (and enjoy) being a partner, having fun together, being intimate, and wanting to share my life. Also, as a wife--in the past and now--I have had issues with pulling back from taking care of both my first husband and my current husband. When my first husband a stroke when he was in his 30s, I rushed in full throttle to take care of him, get him back on his feet, plan our future (the kids were very small then), how we'd get by, how I'd support a disabled husband.

And what do you know, my first husband didn't want to get better. As a result of pouring all my energy into "being there" for my first husband, I had what I call a nervous breakdown and the docs called a major depression. I got better, gave my first H one of the few ultimatums I have ever given: he had six months to figure out whether he was going to physical rehab, school, work, anything, or he needed to move out.

He moved out.

As a girlfriend, I am hideous. I get jealous and insecure and obsessed, and I am generally a mess. I don't even like myself as a girlfriend. I am mentioning this as a reminder to myself as to how I ended up where I am now.

About ten years ago, after years of celibacy (I was a single mom and didn't want men in and out of my kids' lives), I met my husband while I was working online as an editor of some of his own work. He flirted with me, even after he knew how much older I was. When we met in person, he was charming and romantic--the spreading flowers all over the bed kind of romantic, which had a degree of artifice to it, meaning that it had the feel of his reading a book on it. I'm a writer, and how I'd articulate what I mean is that it didn't feel organic to him or the situation.

We had a whirlwind romance. He asked me to marry him before I even met him face to face. This, for me, wasn't a red flag, it was more an indicator of a rather whimsical personality, and I didn't think he meant it. When we met (and he flew me out to meet him), I only stayed a day. He seemed "normal" for maybe 8 hours, and then he started telling me horrible stories about being raped and sexually abused by his mother and father.

The mother side of me got hooked.

The next time he flew me out, it was harder for him to stay "normal," because I was in his apartment. I was still working online, and I brought my laptop with me. I'd get up early in the morning and work. He was very jealous that I was working, and he thought that since he flew me out, I shouldn't be working on other people's manuscripts. I should only work for him. He didn't understand when I told him, I needed to pay my bills. I needed to pay my mortgage and my car loan.

He reacted as if I'd been lying to him about owning my home (why would I say that, when I was paying the bank? Why hadn't I bought it outright?)

I seriously thought he was kidding.

What happened after all this (he was bringing me to his psychiatrist appointments) is that I explained to him with his P present that I had to work, and he agreed to pay me to go through his entire collection of writing and put it in some semblance of order, so he could get it published. (His "body" of work included everything he had ever written, including shopping lists)

He put me in charge of everything, he tried to give me access to all his bank accounts, so that I could talk to the bank instead of him. I had him go to the bank with me and have me sign a card that gave me access only to talk to the bank, and specifically not to withdraw money.

Again, this was the mother in me. It was clear that when it came to money, he had no survival instincts. I had his SSN, his mother's maiden name, and all his previous addresses. Had I been a different person, at the very least, I could have set up credit cards or simply just taken money out of his account.

However, maternal feelings or not, I couldn't live with him. I lasted a month, and one night, he had spit tobacco on the rug, and I stepped in it in bare feet. I probably got a bit histrionic (definitely). He told me it was his house, and he could spit wherever he wanted, and I agreed: "Spit away. I'm leaving." And I did. I also wrote his father a very lengthy letter, not knowing that his father had received dozens of similar letters over the years. In the letter I told his father what my H was doing with money and how I didn't think he should ever live alone, but I didn't know how to stay. I told his dad that maybe an in-law arrangement where I lived close but separate would work, and I ended the letter with that I was concerned.

Flash forward a few months later. We live in my state. I find a place to rent that is beautiful--two houses on the property. Two and a half acres. We are not married. I have seen close-up just how erratic my H is, I push for him to sign a contract that would provide a severance package in the event he fired me for no reason. He resisted. I had a lawyer draw up a contract. He refused to sign it, saying we might as well get married. I agreed because I was looking for protection in the event that he fired me.

Not romantic at all. But from my perspective, necessary. As I said before, when I met him, I'd been celibate for years. I'd been more career and parent driven than romance driven, and I was okay getting married under those circumstances.

I signed a prenup that I thought would protect me. However, even with 2 houses on 2 1/2 acres, I lasted a little over a year and I filed for divorce, thinking the prenup protected me. It didn't. His family fought me, and it was the most traumatic 10 months in my life: someone tried to steal my car, someone broke into my house, my H shipped my furniture to lawyer's office.

And then my email got hacked. I thought my H had done it, and as I was standing in line to get food stamps, I got an email from him asking that I stop sending all these old emails. We ended up back together. Again, it wasn't particularly romantic. It was primarily because his family had cut off his money, which meant I had no money either. He, however, had a place to live.

When I got back to the house, I realized then that my initial assessment that my husband was a huge narcissistic a**hole and it was all because he'd been raised with money and had no idea how real people lived was wrong. My H had trashed the house. He'd broken furniture. He was running naked in the yard, peeing on the floor. I realized something was seriously wrong with him.

Now flash forward to today. Something is still seriously wrong with my H. I have re-established a talking relationship with H's family, actually only with his father. Money is fine although in the hands of his family, and I worry that my H will do something so horrendous that they will cut him off again. Not sure it's a legitimate worry because it is probably more likely that the money would be transferred to a bank, and his family would "simply" cease contact with my H.

What this means for me is that I am essentially alone with a great deal of practical issues. If I felt towards my H only as a wife, I'd have left by now. What complicates this for me is that I genuinely worry about my H's future, especially if I die before he does.

When I first met H's current psychiatrist, I brought up some of those concerns, and I told the P that, in my opinion, if my H wanted to be able to live independently if I should die before he does, he needed to learn how to deal with people respectfully, and I asked her would he be able to do that? She told me that even a chicken could learn to dance.

I'm not asking for help here, and I apologize that right now I'm pretty self absorbed and haven't been able to interact with other members' posts. I need to get some level of peace in my life, figure out if what I am is a parent with a BPD child, a parent with a schizophrenic child, a wife who's gotten her relationship all screwed up, or a former employee who should have been left alone.

[formflier]

How about deciding to not decide for a month.  Come to this board and post away about anything and everything.  Perhaps things will be clearer in a month.

We all have interesting stories... .that is who we are.

I hope you can pivot and start thinking about who you want to be.

It's ok to not know.   Trust that time and effort to live a healthy life will clarify things.

 .   

FF

[babyducks]

I titled this post as I did because I truly don't know where I belong on this forum or if I even belong on this forum at all.

Hi TMD,

For me, this forum is a vital because not many people understand what it's like to be with a partner who will drive the car without hands because "the wind will push the car where God wants it to go."  (mania)   If I say that out in the real world, people tend to flip out on me.   I understand the running naked and peeing on the floor.   It happens.

.
Now flash forward to today. Something is still seriously wrong with my H. ... .

What this means for me is that I am essentially alone with a great deal of practical issues.

If I felt towards my H only as a wife, I'd have left by now

When I tended to focus on my partner's thinking, or behavior I used to over identify with her.  It left me pretty twisted up in my own thinking and out of touch with my own feelings and needs.   It's easy to over focus on our disordered partners,  their need are usually so great and their behavior so extreme it's hard to listen to that still quiet voice inside of us.

With the type of diagnosis your H has,  it sounds very much like he will be struggling for stability all his life.    That's a practical issue because it's going to impact your life.  If you get sick your are going to need to make additional plans to help with your care giving.   You are going to be dealing with what I call the big ticket events of life alone... .that's a lot to sign up for.

.
 I need to get some level of peace in my life, figure out if what I am is a parent with a BPD child, a parent with a schizophrenic child, a wife who's gotten her relationship all screwed up, or a former employee who should have been left alone.

You can't be a parent, that role has already been filled by others in his life and from what you say they have opted out.    It's not physically possible for you to be a parent... .that's a pretty hard and firm boundary.

So that's leaves option 3 a wife who's gotten her relationship all screwed up and I am going to say that's not very accurate either.     This was never a typical husband/wife relationship so I don't believe it's reasonable to accept more than 100% of your 50% of the relationship responsibility.   Mathematically that leaves about     42% of the responsibility in your court.   Your support network has a small percentage of responsibility let's say 3%.   What happened to the Father who didn't disclose possible health concerns (mental or otherwise) before the wedding?   (3% responsibility)   Your H doesn't really have 100% of his 50% responsibility for the relationship because of mental handicap but he should have a percentage also (35%) and his mental health team has a percentage (15%).   So in my book there is a lot of responsibility to go around.

Obviously I am playing here... .but I am wondering why do you feel the burden of his care and his life so acutely ?   Is that a real thing or perhaps a feeling created by emotions not facts?

my two cents
'ducks

[toomanydogs]

Hi TMD,

For me, this forum is a vital because not many people understand what it's like to be with a partner who will drive the car without hands because "the wind will push the car where God wants it to go."  (mania)   If I say that out in the real world, people tend to flip out on me.   I understand the running naked and peeing on the floor.   It happens.

Hi Baby Ducks!
Even as I wrote that I wasn't sure I even belonged on this forum, I was still on this forum, indicating to me I need it, and many of the people in my life truly don't understand.

With the type of diagnosis your H has,  it sounds very much like he will be struggling for stability all his life.    That's a practical issue because it's going to impact your life.  If you get sick your are going to need to make additional plans to help with your care giving.   You are going to be dealing with what I call the big ticket events of life alone... .that's a lot to sign up for.

Yes. How I'd set up the house--letting go for a minute whether or not I took on too much of a therapist role--was to hire people, especially his primary caregiver, who were in their late 30s or early 40s, so that as I age, if I should need help staying in my own house, I'd have it.

When I met H, I was "only" in my 50s, and I wasn't thinking about myself being in my 80s (truthfully, the only time I was focused on myself was when I was trying to protect myself financially, and that didn't really work out as I'd hoped.)

Now that as I'm nearing retirement age, I'm concerned about facing the end of my life essentially alone. I have my kids two towns over; I still have the caregiver, who now helps in the main house, and I have good friends, all about my age. Oh, and I have multiple sisters, who live out of state, but who wouldn't let me die alone. (One of my fears.)

You can't be a parent, that role has already been filled by others in his life and from what you say they have opted out.    It's not physically possible for you to be a parent... .that's a pretty hard and firm boundary.

Thank you for this! If I can figure out how to edit your words a bit and where on my rather short body, that quote would go, I'd get this tattooed on myself. It is so so so easy for me to slide into a maternal role, and I'm so friggin' good at justifying it: he's younger, he's ill, he's this, he's that. You get the picture.

So that's leaves option 3 a wife who's gotten her relationship all screwed up and I am going to say that's not very accurate either.     This was never a typical husband/wife relationship so I don't believe it's reasonable to accept more than 100% of your 50% of the relationship responsibility.   Mathematically that leaves about     42% of the responsibility in your court.   Your support network has a small percentage of responsibility let's say 3%.   What happened to the Father who didn't disclose possible health concerns (mental or otherwise) before the wedding?   (3% responsibility)

And thank you for this. When I am dwelling in the past, which thankfully doesn't happen that often these days, I regret and wish that his dad and I had sat down prior to the wedding and had a heart-to-heart, and built a relationship where we could be an ongoing support to my H. I remember asking my lawyer at the time, does my FIL know there's something wrong with his son? I was so focused at that time at of any hint of impropriety of my being perceived as a gold digger that I didn't take care of myself.

   Your H doesn't really have 100% of his 50% responsibility for the relationship because of mental handicap but he should have a percentage also (35%) and his mental health team has a percentage (15%).   So in my book there is a lot of responsibility to go around.

Thanks for this, as well. My H's T has been out of the country. He returns in 10 days and I'm grateful. I am open with his T about my H's behaviors that concern me. The behavior that concerns me the most right now is that my H has taken to "disappearing." He doesn't tell me where he's going, he blocks my phone number and email, so I have no way of reaching him, and his P has tried to get me to accept this behavior by saying that she feels H is safe because he is texting her.

I am grateful for my own coach, who provides practical solutions, and I am grateful for my H's ex-caregiver, who has told me that even though it's hard, I need to disengage. I need to give my H the "space" he wants, which means essentially NC, even though we are married, and he lives in the guest house.

[/quote]

Obviously I am playing here... .but I am wondering why do you feel the burden of his care and his life so acutely ?   Is that a real thing or perhaps a feeling created by emotions not facts?

Feeling created by emotion. And when I deal with facts, here's where my focus needs to be: 1) Who will be my support as I age? 2) How do I stay mindful about my own needs and focus on what my coach calls "jump starting my own life?" 3) What level of responsibility do I have for an H, who chooses not to be in my life in any meaningful or consistent basis?

Thanks, Ducks. I now start my weekend, feeling fairly focused on my day.

TMD

 

[formflier]

TMD,

Thanks for your post and opening up about your life.  It's neat to "meet" people and understand where they are in their journey in life.

It's also neat to have a community of people that are accepting of the "challenges" that we each face in our own journey.  We are used to applying a certain pragmatism to our lives because of odd behaviors and issues that our partners exhibit.

For instance, in my life I don't have much personal experience with my wife running around naked and peeing here and there.  Instead she believed that I cavorted nude with various females our barn.  In fact, had a secret ceremony down there to marry one of them (yep... .FF was supposedly a bigamist), then there was my love child that I snuck onto tricare insurance (govt insurance for military guys)... .even though when she went to the ID card facility and the child wasn't in their computer system (I'm apparently clever enough to make that happen)... .  etc etc

I'm in my mid 40s... with 8 kids.  My youngest is 4, so I often realize that I'll be in my 60s once she is out of the house and off to college.  I do worry and "fear" what my r/s will be like then... .I've basically decided that I will cross that bridge when I get there.  Hopefully as I continue to mature I will have some influence to push our r/s in a better direction, even though it's not the r/s that I "wanted" or "dreamed off".

If you do the math and follow my history... .I made a conscious decision to have another baby with a paranoid woman (paranoia showed up around time of number 7 was born).  It was during a relatively good period and I figured "things were getting better".  With the passage of time I've learned more about cycles in my wife's life and what part I can "nudge" or "influence" and what parts I can't.  I'm comfortable saying here that it was a mistake for me to father that child, but what is done is done.  That I gained wisdom from that experience and wouldn't repeat it, doesn't mean it was "bad".  I've got a wonderful child and I have this experience that I can use to make healthier choices in the future.

I'm thinking that the "conflicted" board is a great place for you to be because there is a lot of tension and "conflict" between different roles and "pulls" in your life.

I'm going to suggest that you put your hope in the passage of time and the wisdom that will come from that.  While it would certainly be nice to "know" how you can grow old and be cared for, I'm certain that if you keep applying yourself, you will likely have several options which will work for you, even if it is not exactly what you would want.

   

Thoughts?

FF

[toomanydogs]

Thoughts?

FF

First thought: You are wise, and I am impressed that, given your background in the military and my background as more of a free-spirited hippie/artist, you were somehow able to reach me. Somehow you were able to establish a connection. I am not only impressed, I am grateful. That is my first thought.

My second thought is that I hope that as your youngest child leaves home, you will be able to nudge your own marriage into a more satisfying relationship, and that you continue to find peace. You seem, at least here on this forum, to have achieved a good deal of peace already, and I hope that continues.

Next? Peeing in the yard or thinking your husband is cavorting with naked females in the barn are, at their foundation, quite similar. Both indicate a disordered mind, simply different ways in which that disorder manifests. My H once asked me, in all seriousness, if I were sleeping with my son, since I seemed to enjoy his company so much. At first, I was really pissed (didn't respond, however) and then I was sad that my H could possibly perceive a relationship that I treasure as good and healthy and appropriate as twisted and nasty as he had.

Finally, thoughts on putting my hope on trusting that as time passes I will know how I will be take care of and the like: I came back on the forum this morning to announce publicly that I am not happy with my marriage in its current incarnation.

I simply wanted to own my truth. I'm not happy with a number of things in my marriage, and by owning that truth, I feel better able to move forward with establishing my own life, independent from attempting to take care of my husband's.

Acknowledging that I am not happy doesn't mean that I am ready, or even planning, on leaving my marriage. There are reasons for me to stay, and I'm not ready to make a decision like that. Nor am I yet able to figure out how I feel about my husband leaving as he keeps saying he'll do.

I am hanging on to uncertainty, if one can do that. Perhaps a better way to say that is that I am sitting with the uncertainty, accepting that I don't know what I'm going to do, and believing that where I am emotionally is where I need to be before I can go further.

As always, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. Two days ago, when you responded briefly to my post, it made me cry, because it reminded me of what I want from my H: acknowledgment that I exist, that I've said something he's heard, and that he understands. And that doesn't come often from him.

Also that last post was my attempt to write down everything I could remember that seemed relevant to how I ended up where I currently am, so I was already fairly raw.

So thanks again. Today is a good day. I am working on mystery and will head over to my granddaughter's swim meet.

Have a peaceful weekend, FF.
 

TMD

[formflier]

I'm having a good weekend too!  My Dad is in "skilled nursing" trying to learn again how to care for himself after a major stroke.  I just helped him shave.  He did about 20% himself... .then I "took my turn". 

A month ago we had to do it all.

So... I'm hanging out in my Dads room with my Mom and 14 year old son for a bit.  Watching 14 year old explain direct tv to a 76 year old... . 

Then in a bit we are heading to an investment house we are trying to get ready to sell.  Should finish up painting today and move on to the floors.

A thought about our personality types (the military versus hippie thing).  Somehow you should keep tweaking your "style" of living and caretaking to match who you are... .so you can be authentic an true to yourself... .versus do gymnastics to "please" your hubby or to "contort" yourself to fit his needs.  Be yourself, while incorporating the "rules" from bpdfamily and your hubby's mental health team.

So... .what does that look like for me... .a stuffy "structured" military type?  Well... .for me personal responsibility, structure, chain of command are second nature... .that's me... .that's how my brain and personality naturally work (obviously "hardened" by my military experience... .but it was there before the military).

So... ."boundaries" comes very naturally to me.  Letting my wife "give it her best shot" to manage her emotions... .while I watch... .matches my experience "on the boat" (aircraft carrier).  As a Naval Aviator you are 100% responsible for getting aboard.  Sure there are landing signal officers that help you and they can tell you to "wave off" if you are all screwed up... .but it's up to the aviator.  And, especially on dark and stormy nights, the crowds of aviators already safely aboard the boat gather to watch how FF is going to solve this landing.  It will be a good story ... .either way.  Either as a hero... or a zero.

Anyway (rambling a bit) I kind of imagine myself to be my wife's LSO.  She is responsible for her emotions, every once in a way I'll give her some "sugar calls" (little help from the LSO to correct an approach... such as "power... come left" and sometimes I punt her away (wave off!) when she is out of line to make a "safe approach".

And... .sadly... .there are times she crashes and burns... .splattered parts go everywhere and at that point I send the kids (the crew) to their rooms and see what can be done to clean up the mess.

Next day... .new day... new mission... .keep flying.

Hopefully you can figure out something in your world you can make work for you.

FF

[babyducks]

Hi TMD,


How are you doing today?

A couple of random thoughts, as I was reading your post I noticed this:

truthfully, the only time I was focused on myself was when I was trying to protect myself financially

that's interesting.   I remember you read Margalis Fjelstad so I am guessing you remember her talking about the red flags of emotional caretakers.   One of them (of course) is not taking the time to care for yourself,  not standing up for your personal preferences.    I lean pretty hard into the role of caretaking and have to work at staying with in a caregiver's role... . again using Fjelstad's definition.    

As you move forward into today... .is there some single thing you can do to reclaim your preferences?

I noticed it took me a while of living alone to say to myself 'oh ducks you feel like going to bed early tonight,... go ahead and do it... .there is no one here who will ridicule or devalue you for conking out early anymore.'    do you have anything like that going on ?

It is so so so easy for me to slide into a maternal role, and I'm so friggin' good at justifying it: he's younger, he's ill, he's this, he's that. You get the picture.

you know this isn't quite fair to either one of you right?    one of the P's involved in my little rodeo famously said to me on one occasion "no one is psychotic 100% of the time"    He's not young... .he is 41,... and as you mentioned in your other thread, he is able to do the complex reasoning of getting himself from place A to place B via train, how compromised is his thinking?    I'm going to guess there is another reason why it's easy for you to slide into a maternal role.  It's something you are good at so you feel most comfortable there.    Yeah, getting out of our comfort zones stinks sometimes.

He doesn't tell me where he's going, he blocks my phone number and email, so I have no way of reaching him, and his P has tried to get me to accept this behavior by saying that she feels H is safe because he is texting her.

Oy.    So he still isn't home then?    There are lots of ways to look at this.   Who was it that said total perspective is an optical illusion?    At one level his taking off can be perceived as punishing,  and it probably feels that way,... .at another level his taking off can be looked at as a way for him to manage his conflict about the closeness of the relationship, since he is in charge of contact he can relieve the pressure at any time.    From another point of view it's a way to be self destructive / self injuring.    It took me a while to trip to the fact that my partner had two ways of self injuring,   one was tripping and falling.    When life was tough she would slip, trip, fall, bang her head, dislocate her shoulder, and she would say 'life has been so tough lately and I was so frantic that I didn't look where I was going and fell'.   It happened a lot.   like 5 times in 4 years.   the other way she would self injure was doing something impulsively that was amazingly, astoundingly self destructive.   Of the I had a bad day so I quit my job impulsive stuff.    

None of that is awfully healthy.     Well I should say there are healthier ways to approach this.

I'm not defending or supporting the P's comment about accepting his behavior, but I want to mention that accepting doesn't mean liking or approving.   I can accept that what is going on with XYZ right now is not comfortable for me,... not something I agree with, not something that seems to fit with my opinions/thoughts/needs but it is what it is.   Changing it is not something I have any control over.    So I accept it is what it is and reassess and modify my behavior appropriately.     If the P feels your H is safe right now, I think that says something.   She ( the P is female right?) is putting her license on the line, and her professional reputation.    It's her job to evaluate his safety from a mental health standpoint and create an environment that if he doesn't feel safe he will be able to come in for support.     Does that make sense?  

I simply wanted to own my truth. I'm not happy with a number of things in my marriage, and by owning that truth, I feel better able to move forward with establishing my own life, independent from attempting to take care of my husband's.

Nice.       How does that look for you,... .in the small daily details of establishing your own life?   I've found establishing my own life, especially as I age, (58) has created some changes I didn't envision even 5 years ago.   What's brand new for me is that I am suddenly more than content to sit on the front porch in the rocker and watch the world go by.   I've no idea if that's a good thing or a bad thing but right now I am putting it in a judgement free zone and trying it out.     Odd.   But meaningful to me.  By profession I am paid to lead, and in my community service work I am an acknowledged leader, not leading, not even participating, but just absorbing feels remarkably freeing just the now.

have a good day
'ducks

[formflier]

Porch sitting!   

Ducks... are you from the South? 

FF

[toomanydogs]

Hi TMD,


How are you doing today?

Hi Ducks,
I'm answering this the day after you asked. Yesterday I had a fairly good day.

 I remember you read Margalis Fjelstad so I am guessing you remember her talking about the red flags of emotional caretakers.

One of the reasons I had a good day yesterday is that I never had read Fjelstad, so when you wrote this, I downloaded her book, took the test on care taking. I'm the Protesting Colluder.

However, reading that book caused me to look at other relationships and realized I have been the caretaker in several of those. When I was growing up, I didn't so much take care of the family, the siblings and so on--my older sister did--but I always thought that if the adults would give me the chance to run things, I'd do it better.

When I met my H, he actually told me he needed me to run his life, and I asked then who'd run mine? He couldn't answer. But looking back on it, I did attempt to run his life, and I got angry because I wanted him to just get out of my way, do what I told him, and his life would be better. I mean it was actually conscious on my part.

And now it is conscious on my part that I've done it, and I'm not willing to do it anymore. I imagine, I know, I'll slip up here and there, and then I just start doing it again--meaning I recommit to my not being the caretaker.

Yesterday, my H and I had fun going to the casino (I won $1) and then Burger King. However, interwoven in my spending time with him were cries for help--he wants me to ask his father to buy him a new car (his father is trustee), he wants me to help him get an apartment downtown (again this requires my asking his dad for additional money).

An aside: Another issue I had with H's P is that she did write his father to request more money so that my H could be more "independent." My opinion is that she should have helped him learn to ask his dad on his own.

I did a bit of care taking yesterday re: the car. I asked if he'd contacted his dad and said I was certain his dad would say 'yes.' (I know his dad would say 'yes' because his father & I had discussed it before, with my opinion being H really needs to ask for a release of what is essentially his own money, if he really wants to be independent.)

I would have preferred that I had asked my H how he could get the car, but baby steps.

As you move forward into today... .is there some single thing you can do to reclaim your preferences?

I wrote yesterday. I weeded (I kind of like weeding.) I read. And then I watched Game of Thrones when my H and I got home from BK.

I noticed it took me a while of living alone to say to myself 'oh ducks you feel like going to bed early tonight,... go ahead and do it... .there is no one here who will ridicule or devalue you for conking out early anymore.'    do you have anything like that going on ?

It's a bit different for me. It's not so much that H will devalue me, but he'll throw things into chaos, generally requiring my involvement. Past examples: locking me out of the house, locking a caregiver out of the house, knocking over garbage so that the caregivers will have to pick it up, convincing himself that he was having a heart attack, becoming psychotic from taking too many meds... .

Current examples: convinced he was dying because he'd smoked too much weed (he has a medical card), continuing to disappear and block my ability to contact him.

This last one is very hard for me. I'm working with my coach to get to a place where I can truly accept (what Marsha Linehan calls 'radical acceptance.' that he may be back on drugs, probably coke, meth, or crack, and that I can either hire someone to find out for me, which feels like I'm still putting too much energy into what is essentially his problem, or I can wait for some evidence (weight loss, etc.), or I can wait until he gets picked up by the cops or dies.

The thing is, I know he consciously tries to get me going, and when one thing doesn't work, he'll amp it up. The challenge is to stay focused on myself and not engage. Working on it.

you know this isn't quite fair to either one of you right?    one of the P's involved in my little rodeo famously said to me on one occasion "no one is psychotic 100% of the time"    He's not young... .he is 41,... and as you mentioned in your other thread, he is able to do the complex reasoning of getting himself from place A to place B via train, how compromised is his thinking?    I'm going to guess there is another reason why it's easy for you to slide into a maternal role.  It's something you are good at so you feel most comfortable there.    Yeah, getting out of our comfort zones stinks sometimes.

I do feel most comfortable being in that role. I even told my H when we first met that I was most at home being in unequal relationships: mother/child, teacher/student, dog owner/dog.

These days I'm much better with equal relationships, and they are actually more fun. However, I started the relationship with my H as I did, and now I'm undoing my role, as he's undoing his.

Oy.    So he still isn't home then?
 

He comes and goes.

When life was tough she would slip, trip, fall, bang her head, dislocate her shoulder, and she would say 'life has been so tough lately and I was so frantic that I didn't look where I was going and fell'.   It happened a lot.   like 5 times in 4 years.   the other way she would self injure was doing something impulsively that was amazingly, astoundingly self destructive.   Of the I had a bad day so I quit my job impulsive stuff.    

Geez. My H doesn't trip and fall although he is amazingly self-destructive. Mostly with money and relationships.

I'm not defending or supporting the P's comment about accepting his behavior, but I want to mention that accepting doesn't mean liking or approving.

True.

 It's her job to evaluate his safety from a mental health standpoint and create an environment that if he doesn't feel safe he will be able to come in for support.     Does that make sense?  

Yes. The problem I have is I disagree with her that having my H checking in with her, via email, and saying, "I'm safe," constitutes his being safe. My concern, even if he were healthy and even if I didn't have that niggling suspicion that he may be back on drugs, is that if anything were to happen, such as a car accident (and I live in a rural, mountainous state), I wouldn't know where to start to locate him, and if he's doing drugs, he could get beat up or robbed, and I wouldn't know where to start.

What I've asked is that he simply tell me he's leaving, if he's staying local, I don't care where he is, and about when he'll be back. If he's going out of state, then I just want to know where he'll be and when he'll be back, so I'll know when and if I should get the police involved. It's the rule I gave my kids as they turned 18.

I think the P should be working with him so that he can learn to deal in a "normal" world instead of his expecting people should deal with his. Not telling me he's leaving or where he's going and then blocking any access to him is not okay with me. I don't think it would be okay with any wife, and so that disagreement with the P and me continues. I think he's playing her, and since her background is medical not behavioral, I think she doesn't see it.

My biological father was an alcoholic and was born in the 1920s. When his parents discovered how much he was drinking in the early and mid-1950s, they sent him to a psychiatrist (it was a new field back then and my grandma, in particular, liked new fields) who was supposed to get to the bottom of his drinking, so he'd quit.

Years later, after he'd joined AA and quit drinking, he invited me to a meeting where he shared that story, and what he said was that the P didn't recognize alcoholism or drunks, and he'd show up drunk on vodka and answer all the questions about his parents and all that. What my dad said was that it takes an alcoholic to recognize an alcoholic, and I don't think a T would need to have a PD to treat my H, but I do think that my H needs a behavioral therapist and not a P to address a lot of what he does.

And, on that, I'll again recommit to focusing on myself today. I will write. I will take the cat to the vet, maybe go out to lunch, and actively pursue what makes me feel whole.

What's brand new for me is that I am suddenly more than content to sit on the front porch in the rocker and watch the world go by.

  

Porch sitting!  

Ducks... are you from the South?  

FF

FF, I'm from Michigan, and I still miss sitting on the porch and watching the world go by. Maybe it's a small town thing.

Ducks, once again thank you for challenging me. The Fjelstad book is wonderful.

Both of you, have a good day!
TMD

[babyducks]

Ooops,   my bad,   I thought you mentioned you had read stop caretaking the borderline.

I too have been the caretaker in several relationships, driven mostly by need.

When I met my H, he actually told me he needed me to run his life, and I asked then who'd run mine? He couldn't answer. But looking back on it, I did attempt to run his life, and I got angry because I wanted him to just get out of my way, do what I told him, and his life would be better. I mean it was actually conscious on my part

that's a pretty gutsy insight.    nice job.    on the test I too score as a protesting colluder.    makes me sound like some obscure form of vegetable life.

my experience has been that treating BPD or NPD is very difficult for providers.    Here where I am there is a marked reluctance to treat people with PD's.    I've also read that sometimes mental health professionals will enter therapy themselves when working with a difficult PD client, to help keep the professional grounded.   certainly the providers are human, fallible and only seeing snippets of behaviors and actions, which can be crafted.    I am probably biased because my partner was pretty good about self reporting.   She had learned how to and went to honestly disclose when she was having a difficult time.

This last one is very hard for me. I'm working with my coach to get to a place where I can truly accept (what Marsha Linehan calls 'radical acceptance.' that he may be back on drugs, probably coke, meth, or crack, and that I can either hire someone to find out for me, which feels like I'm still putting too much energy into what is essentially his problem, or I can wait for some evidence (weight loss, etc.), or I can wait until he gets picked up by the cops or dies.

I can't imagine how it could be anything else but hard for you.    Of course it is.    I use the phrase "not my circus, not my monkey's" to help me get closer to radical acceptance.    Not my circus not my monkeys,... .fortunately and unfortunately we have civil liberties in this country and you can't really stop someone who is actively engaged in destroying themselves.   Now if this was some third world banana republic... .well never mind... .I am digressing.   Did you decide to hire some one to find out for you or are you waiting it out?

and now the very important topic of front porch sitting.   Nope FF,  I am from New York which is why it's a little unusual that I am sitting on the porch... .it's not a matter of regional pride here.   What I find is that now that my partner is gone,   I actually have more energy than I have had in a while,... .and less of a willingness to use it.    It's part of getting used to the new reality for me... .and I am not quite there yet.

'ducks

[toomanydogs]

on the test I too score as a protesting colluder.    makes me sound like some obscure form of vegetable life.

my experience has been that treating BPD or NPD is very difficult for providers.

My coach, back when she was still and MSW, used to treat BPD and other personality disorders. Part of the reason she opted not to get certification where she now lives is she had compassion fatigue, and she needed to take her life in a different direction. It is very hard to treat people with BPD, especially when they believe the problem is with the people around them.

   I've also read that sometimes mental health professionals will enter therapy themselves when working with a difficult PD client, to help keep the professional grounded.

My coach shared this with me. Anyone treating my H needs therapy to keep grounded. I see my coach twice a week, so I can keep the focus on myself and stay out of the drama.

 certainly the providers are human, fallible and only seeing snippets of behaviors and actions, which can be crafted.  

My H carefully crafts what he tells people, so that he can present himself as being the victim of the various nefarious who surround him. One of the nefarious now includes me. For the past few months, I was caught up with the unfairness of it all, and I wanted him to take it back, admit he was lying about me.

To my credit, I didn't engage with him at that level. To my detriment, I did lose my temper with him, and I sent him mean emails. I say 'detriment' because sending him or engaging with anything other than cordial distance will result in his misconstruing what I've done, and, worse, it will result in his sharing with his P, his father, and Facebook, how dreadful I've been.

I am now staying mindful and distant.

my partner was pretty good about self reporting.   She had learned how to  honestly disclose when she was having a difficult time.

If my H were honestly disclosing, I wouldn't be in the mess I'm in right now. Your partner sounds remarkable for a BPD. High functioning?

Did you decide to hire some one to find out for you or are you waiting it out?

I hired someone. And what that means for me is that my marriage is not tenable. I don't know how to come back from this level of distrust and attempt to rebuild anything, when my H appears to have no interest in anything other than blaming me and his father for just about everything.

The last sliver of hope that I have--and it is a hope based not on past behavior but on my belief in the inherent goodness of people, not necessarily the goodness of my H--is that I will find out that H is indeed on drugs, so that I can attempt to work with my FIL in getting H into a dual diagnosis treatment center, and if we can't get him into treatment, then I can discuss with FIL what he recommends regarding the marriage.

On Monday, I was actually afraid of my H, for the first time ever. I had told him that I thought the phones had been hacked, and that I'd contacted our carrier about the advisability of shutting down service on our current numbers. H came unglued. It's been a long time since I've seen him so angry.

That event and his ongoing torment of one of my dogs frightened me and resulted in my moving forward with hiring someone to look into what's going on.

Looking back on when I had filed for divorce 7 years ago, I now see (hindsight can be beneficial at times) that he had systematically gone after me, engaging in behaviors that I'd told him were deal breakers, specifically going after my kids--not to their faces and not physically--but to my face. And he went after my plants. And he kept the gates open on the property and opened the doors to the house, so the kittens we had at the time could get out. (They didn't.)

Now, I have not shared what I consider deal breakers, so his behaviors are more broad. He did go after my kids on Facebook, maintained how horrible they were, and that he had bought them cars (he didn't) and had never been thanked.

What he is doing is attempting to make it look as if I'm "crazy." He disappears then maintains he's been in his house all along and it's not his fault if he can't hear my knocking. He did the thing with the cats. He emails repeatedly, saying I'm acting different, that I'm paranoid about the phones (I did respond to the phone accusation and said I saw it as my being prudent as I have sensitive data on my phone.)

I feel like any interaction I have with him is some sort of test. Example, I live in a state where medical marijuana is legal. I have a card and use marijuana occasionally for anxiety. He also technically has a card, but he told me he lost it.

Anyway, he sent me an email a few days ago, telling me he wanted to have a party and invite a mutual friend over and that friend's friends, and he asked me if I'd buy 5 joints for the party.

So I figured I was being set up, but I didn't know exactly what he was setting me up for. I wrote him that a party sounded like a lot of fun, and that, no, I couldn't supply marijuana, I could lose my card for doing that.

Then I wondered if my H was waiting for me to report the email to his P. (I'd mentioned to her before that H's use of cannabis was no longer strictly medical, and it worried me.) I didn't know if my H was waiting for me to report it to her, so he could attack me for "telling" on him, or if he was waiting for me not to report it, when he was so clearly asking for help.

(Another reason my marriage is not tenable: I can't do mental gymnastics like this. It's friggin' exhausting.)

I did send the email and my response to the P. She responded, asking who the friends were and that she didn't know anything about them. I then responded that I was uncomfortable sharing anything additional.

I think I need to go listen to Taylor Swift's "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together." Her line about the back and forth being exhausting resonates with me.

Nope FF,  I am from New York which is why it's a little unusual that I am sitting on the porch... .it's not a matter of regional pride here.   What I find is that now that my partner is gone,   I actually have more energy than I have had in a while,... .and less of a willingness to use it.    It's part of getting used to the new reality for me... .and I am not quite there yet.

More energy is a good thing, and more energy and more joy are what I want, and what I'll have. Eventually.

Enjoy the porch sitting.

TMD