I am in a position where I need to say "No, we can't do that"

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This week I am gathering all the info I need for my bankruptcy attorney. Long story short, I was able to put this off for over a year and a half, but things have caught up to me and now I have very little choice. I took my pwBPD to the initial attorney visits, and she gave it the "ok," which in itself is insulting, since the debt is all in my name (except the house), so what the heck does she even have to say about all of this, right?... .but anyway, the bankruptcy filing is happening, probably this week, like I said, as soon I can get all the paperwork done.

BUT... .

The problem still exists. Bankruptcy will do absolutely nothing to solve the underlying problem. See, when things first started getting REALLY bad, about 1.5 years ago, I created a list. Things We Spend Money On. And then I gave them a priority code. Priority 1 was the mortgages. Priority 2 was food, 3 was utilities, etc, etc, down the line to priority 9. Most of what my pwBPD "couldn't live without" was classified as Priority 8 - ok - so far so good. I wouldn't say that my pwBPD explicitly agreed to the categorization, but she agreed to live with it.

Until she realized that it meant that most months, we couldn't pay for anything past Priority 6, and in some of the more difficult months we could barely get through Prio 3 or 4.

What I would have loved to hear her say: "Gee, honey, this is really bad - lets work together and yeah, maybe we need to just focus on the top priorities and I can certainly put off the other stuff, of course, I mean, the MORTGAGE needs to be paid! Duh! Of COURSE I'll let that other stuff drop."

What she actually said: "That's unacceptable! I MUST have Priority 8 items and I've gone 2 years without ANYTHING in Priority 9 so those must happen as well! What are you doing to fix this? What are you going to do to make sure I get my 8's and 9's? Why haven't you been focusing on getting a better job / higher pay / more advancement all along? You've purposely put us in this untenable position and I expect you to take full responsibility to make sure that ALL the items from 1s to 9s get taken care of! Don't come back to me with an answer other than 'it's all taken care of'"

So - I push myself, I make the debt worse, I put my job at risk, I pray for a good month of sales. You get the idea - I've never really said a firm "NO."

And that brings me to the point / question of my post... .

I am in a position where I need to say "No, we can't do that" and make that be the firm, unwavering answer. The consequences are serious legal trouble, including loss of my home and my car.

And I don't even really have a question - I know this needs to be done and I'll do it. I guess I'm looking for moral support as I start down this really hard path.

Thanks for listening. Any advice or encouragement?

[DaddyBear77]

This week I am gathering all the info I need for my bankruptcy attorney. Long story short, I was able to put this off for over a year and a half, but things have caught up to me and now I have very little choice. I took my pwBPD to the initial attorney visits, and she gave it the "ok," which in itself is insulting, since the debt is all in my name (except the house), so what the heck does she even have to say about all of this, right?... .but anyway, the bankruptcy filing is happening, probably this week, like I said, as soon I can get all the paperwork done.

BUT... .

The problem still exists. Bankruptcy will do absolutely nothing to solve the underlying problem. See, when things first started getting REALLY bad, about 1.5 years ago, I created a list. Things We Spend Money On. And then I gave them a priority code. Priority 1 was the mortgages. Priority 2 was food, 3 was utilities, etc, etc, down the line to priority 9. Most of what my pwBPD "couldn't live without" was classified as Priority 8 - ok - so far so good. I wouldn't say that my pwBPD explicitly agreed to the categorization, but she agreed to live with it.

Until she realized that it meant that most months, we couldn't pay for anything past Priority 6, and in some of the more difficult months we could barely get through Prio 3 or 4.

What I would have loved to hear her say: "Gee, honey, this is really bad - lets work together and yeah, maybe we need to just focus on the top priorities and I can certainly put off the other stuff, of course, I mean, the MORTGAGE needs to be paid! Duh! Of COURSE I'll let that other stuff drop."

What she actually said: "That's unacceptable! I MUST have Priority 8 items and I've gone 2 years without ANYTHING in Priority 9 so those must happen as well! What are you doing to fix this? What are you going to do to make sure I get my 8's and 9's? Why haven't you been focusing on getting a better job / higher pay / more advancement all along? You've purposely put us in this untenable position and I expect you to take full responsibility to make sure that ALL the items from 1s to 9s get taken care of! Don't come back to me with an answer other than 'it's all taken care of'"

So - I push myself, I make the debt worse, I put my job at risk, I pray for a good month of sales. You get the idea - I've never really said a firm "NO."

And that brings me to the point / question of my post... .

I am in a position where I need to say "No, we can't do that" and make that be the firm, unwavering answer. The consequences are serious legal trouble, including loss of my home and my car.

And I don't even really have a question - I know this needs to be done and I'll do it. I guess I'm looking for moral support as I start down this really hard path.

Thanks for listening. Any advice or encouragement?

[schwing]

Hi DaddyBear77,

The problem still exists.

I'm guessing that the reason why you are in this situation in the first place has materially not changed (i.e. your spouse's spending habits).

What she actually said: "That's unacceptable! I MUST have Priority 8 items and I've gone 2 years without ANYTHING in Priority 9 so those must happen as well! What are you doing to fix this? What are you going to do to make sure I get my 8's and 9's? Why haven't you been focusing on getting a better job / higher pay / more advancement all along? You've purposely put us in this untenable position and I expect you to take full responsibility to make sure that ALL the items from 1s to 9s get taken care of! Don't come back to me with an answer other than 'it's all taken care of'"

As I see it, your loved one has a disorder which makes it difficult for her to manage her emotions and control her impulses.  If her impulse is "I don't feel good" and her solution is "I'll buy this thingie in order to feel better about myself."  And her rationale is "This is all DaddyBear77's fault/responsibility," "I can do whatever it is I want because I'm the victim."  If all this is true, then you have a big problem.

And I know this probably isn't what you imagined for yourself when you signed up for this marriage situation.  Most people would probably expect their life partner to behave like a partner; or at least a partner who is on the same team as you are.

But that probably not what you have with your disordered loved one.  Maybe from time to time she might say she wants to be on your side and to help make the marriage work.  But forget her words and good intentions.  Focus on her behaviors past and present.  If she's going to continue act impulsively when it comes to her spending habits.  Then you'll need to decide for yourself which is worse: (1) being financially insolvent or (2) being the "bad guy" who cannot make your spouse happy by buying all the things that she "needs."   

And I have a strong suspicion that it doesn't matter if you had all the money in the world, no amount of anything will ever make your pwBPD happy.

Best wishes, Schwing

[Notwendy]

I have no idea really. One option would be to control all the money and only give her an allowance, but she could still probably take out credit cards by reporting your income. If you are in a state where marital property is 50-50 then she probably has access to the money you both earn. But you could have two accounts one hers, one yours, with only your name on it, and deposit a certain amount in her account but if she takes care of household expenses like food shopping, you might find yourself with nothing to eat if she spends it all. Still, it will keep her out of the main funds.

We really can not control someone else's behavior. If we need to protect something, we need actual physical boundaries. For instance, my BPD mother does not respect privacy and reads personal things if she sees them. The only thing we can do is to make sure anything personal like bank statements or tax forms is locked up when she visits.

My mother has spent excessively as far as I can recall.  My father made sure she would have enough if something happened to him- he had life insurance. But we knew that no matter how much money anyone has, excessive spending could run right through it. When he got sick, we got concerned that she would spend it all too fast so we tried to get some control over it. If I had known about the drama triangle then, I would not have gotten into this one, but I didn't at the time. It just made logical sense to manage it so that she would have what she needed over time. ( we didn't want any of it). I'm sure you can guess how that went over, so we backed off.  

So, I really have no idea what to do.

[Grey Kitty]

Saying "NO" is enforcing a boundary.

It is like learning a new skill, one that requires you to use muscles that are unfamiliar to you. It takes practice.

When I see this, I think you will have better luck if you pick a different boundary to enforce than the one you chose:

What she actually said: "That's unacceptable! I MUST have Priority 8 items and I've gone 2 years without ANYTHING in Priority 9 so those must happen as well! What are you doing to fix this? What are you going to do to make sure I get my 8's and 9's? Why haven't you been focusing on getting a better job / higher pay / more advancement all along? You've purposely put us in this untenable position and I expect you to take full responsibility to make sure that ALL the items from 1s to 9s get taken care of! Don't come back to me with an answer other than 'it's all taken care of'"

It sounds like the boundary you want to enforce is one on spending money.

I recommend you enforce a boundary to protect yourself from verbal abuse and badgering.

NOTE: If you need to go to a motel for the night to get away from her abuse, do it. Never mind that it costs money--your going to have to file bankruptcy anyhow. It is worth spending *SOME* money on your peace of mind, your mental health. Otherwise you'll never come out the other end.

By the time she got to "What are you doing to fix this?" she's launching into you with verbal abuse. And it continued on from there.

And by now you've taught her something important--any time you try to enforce any boundary, all she has to do is launch into you like that... .and you will eventually cave in.

Step 1 is enforcing the boundary that you will not stay to be badgered by her.

Once you can do that, you have the tool you need to stick to your other boundaries (like financial ones).

If you can't do that, she has a magic wand that will blast through any other one you try.

[Notwendy]

Very good point GK

I am not a lawyer but I think in at least some states marital assets and debt are joint property. If one spouse has debt it becomes the responsibility of both I think. So if DB says no, what stops her from getting a credit card? Bankruptcy probably will as credit would be low ( I think that's a good boundary for that ).

For joint property I don't know what stops her from taking out a loan or home equity loan.

Saying No is a first important step but IMHO steps to keep her from access to money may be needed. That's a difficult thing to do in a marriage- hiding money can be deceitful. The boundary may simply have to be two accounts that she knows about and sticking to the set amount in hers. This can involve constantly saying No.

[Grey Kitty]

Things like separate accounts, allowances, etc. are all good solutions to money problems, and sometime DB will probably want or need to use them.

If I recall correctly, the historical money problem isn't that she drains the account and spends money, but that she badgers DB until he agrees to or spends the money himself--his inability to say NO in the face of pressure from his wife.

That's why I suggested focusing on enforcing boundaries against that pressure first.

DB, let me know if I'm remembering correctly or not.

[DaddyBear77]

DB, let me know if I'm remembering correctly or not.

GK you are remembering correctly. The issue is currently that she badgers and I give in. Case in point: 5 years ago she demanded very expensive earrings. I said no for a year. It was never dropped. Then I said I'll get you smaller earrings. I got them. They weren't good enough. Two more years, she didn't drop it. Finally I got the earrings she wanted, 3 years later.

I think I remember this being a similar situation for Notwendy and her parents, am I correct on that?

In any case, GK, your observation of setting the boundary of not staying for verbal abuse is a valid one. Without that, she'll magic away any other boundary I try and set.

The only problem left here is my fear of what will happen when I finally DO say "no."

[Grey Kitty]

The only problem left here is my fear of what will happen when I finally DO say "no."

Your fears are real, but they aren't completely rational... .so let me ask you about this fear.

How would it be different when you 'finally DO say "no"' from the thousands and thousands of times you have already said no?

What are you afraid she would do? And is it something different than things she's already done to you?

[BeagleGirl]

DaddyBear,
I'll definitely offer moral support.  
Your dynamic sounds very similar to what is in play with my in-laws.  The outcome has been that they very frequently come to my husband with the latest reason why they need money.  I say "they", because even though it's my MIL who does the asking my FIL's decisions to give in and acceptance of the money when we give it makes him equally culpable in my eyes.  

So when you worry about what MIGHT happen if you say "no", think about what HAS happened since you didn't say "no".  And look honestly at what WILL happen if you continue in this same pattern.  Know that you will not only be unable to provide financial assistance to your children as they grow, but they will probably be called on to rescue you and your wife repeatedly... .for the rest of their lives.  And if you haven't shown them how to say "no", how do you think they will do it for themselves?  At what cost?  My husband and I were sending money to my in-laws while working our way through college and taking on loans to complete our education.  We were giving money to my in laws when I was working 4 part time jobs so I could stay at home with my son and taking on credit card debt.  We were giving money when I had to go back to work.  We have given money/gifts through the years that I have earned enough money to pay off all the debts we incurred in those early years (while my husband stayed at home and slept through "homeschooling" our oldest).  It is only now, 22 years later, that I am saying "no".  I'm saying "no" because I value my freedom to pay for my children's schooling and set aside enough money to ensure that I never need to come to them for financial assistance.  I will NEVER put my sons in the position that you WILL put your children in if you don't start saying "no".
Sorry to sound harsh, but maybe if you know that you will get as much of a tongue lashing from me if you give in as you will get from your wife if you don't... .

[Notwendy]

Yes it was the same situation with my parents. If my Dad said no she'd badger him until he gave in just to have a moments peace- until the next time. Soon he'd just give in to avoid it altogether. We kids weren't allowed to say no.

Beagle girl makes a good point about this behavior continuing and involving adult children. Imagine saying no to someone who has learned this behavior- and who taught her it was OK? We are her enablers. But I do say no to her now.

[DaddyBear77]

Sorry to sound harsh, but maybe if you know that you will get as much of a tongue lashing from me if you give in as you will get from your wife if you don't... .

  thank you BG - that made me laugh out loud in the middle of my conference call and smile a lot. I really appreciate the harshness and it is well received, and well earned.

What are you afraid she would do? And is it something different than things she's already done to you?

GK - there are multiple fears in play here:

The first (original) fear is my OWN fear of abandonment / being alone. I had very few friends growing up, and the few that I DID have are all pushed away from years and years of neglect (isolation). I recognize that fear in little doses even while I'm still "staying" with my pwBPD - for example, she left the house for an appointment today without saying goodbye. That was probably a very GOOD thing, because nearly every interaction lately results in a fight. Still, until I could really take a deep breath and center myself, it was very sad and felt very alone.

The second, more current fear, is the effects that all of the different scenarios will have on D3 and my relationship with D3:
If I stay: Most of the time, especially when it's the middle of the night, I end up staying and listening to the toxic messages from my pwBPD because I know that if I DO walk away, there will be nothing I can do to mitigate the screaming, crying, expressions of emotional pain, that my pwBPD will go through. This has happened constantly and consistently, and every time it happens, D3 will get extremely upset - sometimes cry, sometimes shout angrily, but generally, it's SO hard for her.
If I leave: I know that it will be an immediate legal battle regarding custody. Alienation will start almost immediately. Costs for an attorney will skyrocket. We will undoubtedly have custody evaluations, psych evals, I will need to demand and fight for every second I spend with D3 because of pwBPD's ideas about custody and my parents.

Another issue is the fear of rage directed at me and expressions of anger. I have repressed most of my memories regarding my own childhood, but one thing I DO remember is that my mother was (is) REALLY scary when she got angry (which wasn't often) and I suspect a lot of it started there. My father also fought with me pretty constantly when I started into my pre-teen / teenage years, so there's certainly a connection there, too. In any case, part of what happens when my pwBPD gets "cranked up" is that I feel like a kid, helpless, afraid. When things DO eventually resolve, I am often really surprised when I see myself in the mirror and see that I'm actually this near-middle-age adult.

And one more thing that's less obvious, and not well developed in my mind yet, is the fear of expressing anger and rage myself. It's a powerful thing to scream and shout and "let loose" and 99% of the time I bottle it up and do nothing about it. But I realize the right thing to do here IS to disengage rather than JADE and participate, so I'm getting better at this at least.

I HAVE been working on most of these issues through therapy, but probably not as hard as I need to. It's a real challenge to get the most out of a T session when you spend most of it decompressing and venting to the only sane adult you've spoken to all week. Luckily I have you guys to bounce things off of now so at least that opens up more opportunities to work on deeper issues.

[Grey Kitty]

  It is good to see that much of your fear is fear about how you will deal with anger--both your own and your wife's... .the good part is that you know that this is your own fear, and you are working on it in therapy. It isn't easy, but keep at it, you will get there.

Most of the time, especially when it's the middle of the night, I end up staying and listening to the toxic messages from my pwBPD because I know that if I DO walk away, there will be nothing I can do to mitigate the screaming, crying, expressions of emotional pain, that my pwBPD will go through. This has happened constantly and consistently, and every time it happens, D3 will get extremely upset - sometimes cry, sometimes shout angrily, but generally, it's SO hard for her.

Uhm... .do you see how toxic this is for you when you stay?

And what is holding you there is as bad or worse--she's pretty much holding your daughter hostage: Translation: "If you don't let me verbally abuse you, I will scream and cry and upset D3."

When I said to start with enforcement of boundaries around verbal abuse, this is a perfect example.

Can we help you find a way through this specific scenario? Is it the one you are willing to take a stand on first?

[Doughboy]

I HAVE been working on most of these issues through therapy, but probably not as hard as I need to. It's a real challenge to get the most out of a T session when you spend most of it decompressing and venting to the only sane adult you've spoken to all week. Luckily I have you guys to bounce things off of now so at least that opens up more opportunities to work on deeper issues.

I know this feeling well.  I have 1 friend I can vent to and the rest are all of the opinion that I should be over her by now (we have been NC for about 30 days).  I an EXTREMELY fortunate that my Counselor loves me and allows me to email random questions/concerns if I need to in between sessions and she responds within the day.  She also lets my sessions run long, I have noticed, if we are spinning our wheels on something.  My last 5 appointments, 1 per week, have totaled about 12 hrs when it should have been 5hrs.  No additional charge!

[DaddyBear77]

My last 5 appointments, 1 per week, have totaled about 12 hrs when it should have been 5hrs.  No additional charge!

Hey, your counselor doesn't happen to do phone sessions, does she? 

Can we help you find a way through this specific scenario? Is it the one you are willing to take a stand on first?

Yes. Thank you. Let me outline the scenario - this happens 3-4 times a week:

1. pwBPD wakes up in the middle of the night with anxiety. She tosses and turns, sometimes for an hour or so, sometimes less.
2. I either wake up on my own, or she wakes me up, and she says "I can't sleep"
3. I say "Oh no! What can I do to help you?" - I offer a back rub, suggest she takes her anxiety meds (empathetically), sit up and watch a movie, etc
4. She says "... .and I'm also REALLY upset about xxxxxx." where xxxxx is something she's accused me of doing, maybe even something I've admitted to doing during a past conversation, the previous night, before we went to sleep, etc.
5. I say "I'm really really sorry about xxxxxxx."
6. She says "But WHY would you do xxxxx? HOW could someone who supposedly loves me do xxxxx?"
7. I am at a loss for words. Keep in mind, it's early in the morning. I'm exhausted. I feel cornered. I used to feel shocked but now it's pretty much expected that things will not get resolved quickly.
8. She says "... .and NOW you give me the silent treatment! EXACTLY what I'd expect."
9. I engage, and things get ugly: "No, I'm not ignoring you. I just don't know what... ." "Then respond to what I said!" "WHY would I do xxxx? Because I'm a jerk. I just wanted to stick it to you by doing xxxx because that's what I do!" "What kind of response is THAT? What a cop out! *I* think you did it because you don't give a ___ about me. You're a cold, cruel person and you get off on doing xxxxx"
10a. If I'm careful in what I say, I can usually manage to keep things from getting too loud, at least, and D3 doesn't hear a thing.
10b. If I'm NOT careful, or if it's a particularly bad night for her: I need to decide if it's better for me to leave the room, let the crying happen, and deal with D3 waking up because of that, OR, stay, let the shouting happen, have D3 wake up to THAT, but then I'm still in the room and I can be in a position to steer pwBPD toward going in and comforting D3. Why don't I go in to comfort D3 directly, you ask? Well, I used to do that - but, 100% of the time that I do that, pwBPD will switch from sad painful crying to rage and anger. She'll come into D3's room right behind me, push me out of the way, take D3 out of my arms, and make a scene until I leave the room, which I've learned to do quickly.
11. After the scene subsides, and it ALWAYS does, I will end up giving pwBPD the comfort I had offered originally, usually back rubs, foot rubs, talking her to sleep, almost like hypnosis. I will physically and mentally contort myself so that I can provide these comforts. She will usually fall back asleep quickly, and stay asleep for some length of time, depending on when we need to get up. I will force myself to stay awake until I know she's asleep, and then usually pass out from sheer exhaustion. Often I will need to cancel or reschedule morning work appointments so we can get extra sleep that we weren't otherwise planning on. I've gotten up in the past to do my work while she sleeps, and sometimes she "allows" that but often she'll get angry / controlling and start the cycle again at step 6 above.


Before I talk about places where I know I'm making this worse / could improve things, I'll put this out there to see what others have to say. It's pretty messed up, but I've tried to be as open and descriptive as possible.

[Notwendy]

DB, I had some of the issues that were similar to my parents' marriage. I say some, because compared to my mother, my situation was very mild, so mild that it completely baffled me that similar issues were there. Well, the common thread to this was me- I brought the patterns I learned and the fears, and the ways I related to BPD mom ( co-dependent, enabling) into my marriage ( we all do this) and this matched my H's tendencies.

I read in a marriage book that we choose partners who match our issues from our FOO's and we can repeat them. You have identified your fears of your mother, fears of anger and how this plays out in your marriage, even if your wife and mother are not exactly alike.  It is these fears that are keeping you in this continuous replay of scenes with your wife. This becomes a dysfunctional dance. The good news is to change the dance, change the steps- but it is the steps that you do to deal with your own fears and anxieties that keep you from changing your steps.

I too fear angry people. Anger terrifies me. I am sure you see where this comes from. If my mother was angry, my father would get angry. We kids were scared of her. So to do all I could to avoid, squelch, and pacify anger was a normal and necessary adaptation to the FOO I grew up with, but when we take these behaviors into our relationships as adults- they are maladaptive and lead to dysfunction.

I didn't face the same kind of money issues you faced, but we did have the circular arguments at night that were just awful. I gave in to things at the drop of a hat to avoid my H's being angry at me. Every time he became the least bit irritable I jumped to fix whatever it was. My H is quick to anger and so I was controlled by fear of his rages if I didn't comply with his wishes.

The way out of this mess ( not the relationship but the dance) was for me to be able to hold up to the rages, and deal with  my own fears. Once the T assessed that I was not in physical danger ( he may yell but never laid a hand on me) I had to basically say no and learn to deal with the consequences. It was scary but it was the only way for change to happen. It was me who taught him that rages work, and it was up to me to teach him that they didn't.

Another piece of advice she gave me is no discussions at night. We are tired and at our worse. We were both responsible for starting them. It did help that she gave that advice to both of us. If you can enlist your T to have a session with your wife and make it "doctors orders" not to do this at night because sleep is important that may help. She suggested to both of us that if either of us did this, it was OK to leave the room and sleep in another room. We had to keep this boundary.

Do you have any 12 step groups near you? You sound pretty isolated. My T "prescribed" this for me too. There were no issues with alcohol or substance abuse in my marriage so I was puzzled by this, but the program works for dysfunction too. I had to deal with co-dependency. Meetings help but the sponsor relationship was a major help to me and I think for this to work one has to have a sponsor to hold you accountable. It also helps to have another contact besides sessions with a T.

The great part about learning these skills is that I get to use them with BPD mom and who boy, saying no to her is a real experience. It is different for me because I don't live with her and our relationship is different from a marriage, but over time she has learn that her anger does not work with me. This takes time.

As to your fears your wife will leave you- how would she survive without you? You make all the money. What would she do, really? I did realize that if I changed, there was the risk my H would leave. We do risk that, but we don't know if it would happen or not. I did come to a place where I felt I didn't want to be co-dependent. I didn't know what would happen, but I was willing to take the chance.

Fears for D3? I don't know what will happen about that, but she's exposed to the dysfunction regardless. That's a tough one to consider.

[Grey Kitty]

Before I talk about places where I know I'm making this worse / could improve things, I'll put this out there to see what others have to say. It's pretty messed up, but I've tried to be as open and descriptive as possible.

  I won't tell you it isn't messed up. I will say that I can see how really hard it is for you, and I see two fundamental "issues" in that you might want to look at... .because as far as I'm concerned, you're doing the wrong thing by step 3!

You need sleep. You can enforce a boundary that you need your sleep, and it isn't your job to "help" her get back to sleep when she wakes up with anxiety. (NOTE: If this happened every couple years, it would be totally reasonable for you to accommodate her like this... .3-4 times a week is not the same at all!)

I would suggest the following steps to protect yourself:

A: If she wakes you up, tell her you need to sleep, and you will talk to her if she still needs your support at (fill in time when you will be available tomorrow).

[She keeps talking]
B: You get up and move to the couch to sleep.

[She follows you and keeps talking]
C: You get dressed, get your wallet and phone, and drive to a motel (or friend's couch if available) to sleep for the night, turning your phone off so she can't call you before morning.

[If she gets in her car and follows yours... .]
D: Drive to a police station; if she follows you there / stalks you there, you are protected.

EVENTUALLY, she will discover that you are unwilling to sooth her (aka be an emotional punching bag for her) at night. And eventually she will find other ways to get herself to sleep when she wakes up anxious. Hopefully as you both get used to this, you will need fewer steps of escalation to get away at night.


And there is a second aspect of this that is disturbing... .but your choices to deal with it are harsher.

Your wife holding D3's wellbeing hostage to force you to accept the role of emotional punching bag.
Sadly, this is powerful and hard to fight. As I see it, you have three choices, and none of them are easy ones:

• Capitulate (do what she wants)
• Stand strong and decide that it isn't bad enough to involve authorities, letting her do what she will with D3.
• Stand strong and decide that the harm to D3 is too great, call 911 or CPS to protect D3.

[Notwendy]

I agree with GK that step 3 is where you take on the responsibility of trying to soothe her bad feelings/insomnia. It sounds like a great solution- back rub, etc.  Think of this cycle though as a release valve for the bad feelings. - the drama, the rage outburst is the way to get these feelings out. I have observed that the rages somehow act like a reset button. So the back rub doesn't have this effect.

Why at night? I think night is when people are relaxed and not busy, and so the feelings can come more into focus. But night is also a time when we are less able to hold on to our own feelings- being tired makes us all prone to being more reactive. Also, sleep deprivation isn't good for anyone. At night, one is less likely to hold on to boundaries and to give in- just to get some sleep.

Sleep is a basic need. It's part of our own self care to get sleep. If someone is frequently keeping us from sleeping- we need some kind of boundary for that- a different room, somewhere else to sleep. This is not something to discuss in the moment,  but during the day- that you need sleep and need to come up with a way to get some sleep, that you love her and care about her, but without sleep you can not be at your best for you or anyone else. There needs to be a plan in place if she wakes you up. Yes, she may want to discuss things, but an answer is I love you honey and care that you are upset, but I am not in a good mindset to discuss this right now, and we can talk in the day. She is likely to resist this and be upset, but enforcing this boundary over time can help. Think of what you are doing now to soothe and prevent an outburst? Is it working? Probably not, so why not set the boundary?

[Grey Kitty]

Oh, one thought about enforcing a sleep boundary:

You don't need to tell somebody that you are going to enforce a boundary before you do it. That is strictly optional.

Telling them why it is right / why you should / why you need to enforce the boundary works against you.

In this case, I'd recommend you tell her (once!) during the day, at a time she's not already overcome with anxiety that you have to change something, and here's the new way it will be... .something like this (adjust for your own words):

It isn't my job to sooth you at night when you wake up, so you can get back to sleep. I need my own sleep. I understand how hard it is for you to wake up with anxiety, but it doesn't work for me to be awake throughout the night because of it. Please try to handle it without waking me instead, next time it happens.

Say it in a way that is as gentle as possible, but is still firm. Most importantly, it is something you are telling her that you will do. It is NOT a negotiation or discussion with her. [Any time you negotiate in any way over boundary enforcement, you end up with no boundaries   ]

You will almost certainly need the boundary enforcement actions I outlined in my earlier reply, at least the first few nights, but I think in this case, giving her some warning before you take a 180 degree turn from what you did two nights ago is wise.

[flourdust]

I agree. Stop at Step 3. Express sympathy, then go back to sleep, or execute a strategy to remove yourself from the situation.

[BeagleGirl]

DaddyBear,
I'm still pondering, so take this with a grain of salt.

I see that your fear for D3's emotional well being has become a tool that BPDw uses to get what she wants.  I also see how she can still use this if you set/enforce the "no discussions at night" boundary (something I'm totally onboard with).  I think that is a tool that needs to be taken away in order for you be able to enforce any boundaries in this area. 

As GK says, communicating the boundaries is totally optional (enforcing them is not ), but this is one where I think some "forewarning" may be worthwhile.  Maybe something like:

"I will no longer be participating in conversations between the hours of x-y.  One of the reasons I will not do so is because the risk of waking/disturbing D3 is unacceptable.  If you insist on raising your voice or otherwise making enough noise to wake D3 I will xyz".  I have some ideas of what xyz could be, but my main recommendation is that it involves removing the "power" BPDw has to use D3 against you. 

None of this is easy.  It's very UNFAIR.  It's also extremely draining.  It can feel like hell.  Know that you have my sympathy and prayers.  You are not alone on this journey, so when you start to feel alone you know where you can find sympathy, advice, and the occasional tongue lashing. 

BeagleGirl

[Grey Kitty]

DB, you have to first decide on the boundary you will enforce, and what form it will take.

Next, communicate it (if you choose to). This is a good way to do it too:

"I will no longer be participating in conversations between the hours of x-y.  One of the reasons I will not do so is because the risk of waking/disturbing D3 is unacceptable. 

And you do need to decide what actions you will take to enforce it. So you need to know this:

If you insist on raising your voice or otherwise making enough noise to wake D3 I will xyz".

Please don't tell your wife about this part in advance.

1. She is likely to view it as a threat, and react badly to your threatening her. It was already bad enough that you are challenging her by telling her she won't get her way in the first sentence!

2. You are giving her advance warning so she can figure out better how to counter your enforcement actions.

In an ideal world, she will realize that your boundary is a good one, and not challenge you, so she would never find out what action you would take to enforce it. I know, not gonna happen... .but the point remains--she doesn't need to know what "xyz" is until she's on the receiving end of it!

[DaddyBear77]

You guys are the best. Thank you.

Just a quick update... .

Last night she woke up again. I knew she was awake but I didn't move. I froze. I just lied in bed motionless. She asked, very quietly, "Are you awake?" I didn't respond. Then she tossed and turned aggressively a couple times. She kicked the bed a couple times (?). I didn't move. This took an hour or so, but she went back to sleep without a word from me.

This wasn't a victory. This was effectively kicking the can down the road until I can process all this.

Also, it didn't do anything about the outburst - the emotional assault happened later, after the alarm went off. It lasted about an hour. I DID stay for this one (I wish I hadn't) but I thought a lot about leaving, walking out. This is something I will work toward.

Notwendy - I found some CoDA meetings. Thank you. I will work on attending these, but it will be tricky without triggering a response from pwBPD. That shouldn't matter, but it does.

The original problem in the post is still very much standing - she wants a red dress (how ironic, right BG?) - a specific, discontinued dress that costs a few hundred dollars. I said I'd get it when we have enough money. She won't let it go. It sold out in the US. I found one in the U.K.  She wants me to buy it immediately. We have less than $100 in our account. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I really do appreciate and understand I need to take these issues one at a time, or at least give each one a priority and work each one until it's in a sustainable place.

You guys really are awesome. Thank you.

[Notwendy]

My H didn't like me going to 12 step meetings. At the time I started this, I had restricted my interests to basically manage his anxiety. While I am not certain full BPD is involved here, the similar patterns evolved. My H appeared cool and confident to me, I had no idea what his thoughts were. But I do know that my attempts to do things outside the house were met with resistance from him, with no real awareness of why. He was very good at thwarting my attempts and if those didn't work, he would have a rage episode. As you can imagine, knowing how I grew up, these scared me. I also considered the kids would be upset, much like you do. Not knowing what to do, I did what came naturally to me- walk on eggshells, meet his demands, not do anything that upset him. But that made me unhappy.

Eventually I insisted on MT, something he had resisted many other times. I expected the T to point out his issues to him. She was brilliant, but I didn't know it at the time. She labeled me ( codependency) ! Not him! Boy was I mad. That seemed so unfair. But then she prescribed a plan to deal with it. It was great. My H was probably relieved that I was the focus of the problem, but then, I had her orders to follow. It was hard for him to argue against that. But by going out, I not only got the help I needed, it left him to deal with his own issues when I was out. What are they? He has expressed them- he knew I was not happy in the marriage and he was concerned I would meet someone I liked better. Makes sense - he knew I was not happy. So, it eased his fears if I didn't pursue my interests which didn't make me happy. Chicken and egg. The meetings helped break this cycle for both of us. Soon, I got the courage to do other things- like a girls night out. I am basically a homebody but I do enjoy seeing friends. I can understand any partner not liking it if their SO was out every night, but that is not me. I have not cheated and have no interest in meeting anyone else.

I think honesty is best, but telling your wife that this is for your emotional health and that it is a theraputic necessity may make it easier to attend the CoDA meetings.

[Grey Kitty]

Last night she woke up again. I knew she was awake but I didn't move. ... .This took an hour or so, but she went back to sleep without a word from me.

This wasn't a victory. This was effectively kicking the can down the road until I can process all this.

Also, it didn't do anything about the outburst - the emotional assault happened later, after the alarm went off.

I disagree--it was a victory. Perhaps because I see the battle you are fighting differently than you do.

"Victory" isn't avoiding triggering her dysregulation / outburst / emotional assault. Those are going to happen no matter what you do!

"Victory" is that your sleep was disturbed for only an hour, instead of keeping you up all night, and you got enough sleep that you can function and work today!

I found some CoDA meetings. Thank you. I will work on attending these, but it will be tricky without triggering a response from pwBPD.

Keep working on your definition of success/victory/progress here... .your goal isn't to go to the CoDA meeting without triggering your wife. (Among other things, you have zero control over whether she's triggered or not!)

Your goal is to go to the CoDA meetings. Knowing she might be triggered. And go anyways.

Another boundary I found for myself with my wife many years back: "My mental health/spiritual growth/therapy/etc./etc. is my own. I'm doing this for myself, not for your approval, and I'm not reporting back to you with it."

In other words, it isn't her business whether you go to a CoDA meeting or not. When you are scheduled to be away from her probably is her business... .and working hard to HIDE that you are going to a meeting isn't a very good idea... .but don't talk to her about what happens at the meetings, or why you go. (Just like you don't talk to her about your time here in these forums!)

[BeagleGirl]

DH,
I agree that you HAVE experienced a victory.  You have also learned that your wife has her own boundaries.  She is not willing to overtly wake you up to start the fight.  Not sure why that boundary is important to her, but I find it interesting, partially because... .
{Confession time} - I used to try to wake my husband up to continue "discussions" throughout the night.  I did the sighing, rolling over VERY heavily, etc.  It irked me to no end that he could sleep when we hadn't resolved anything and I was still hurting.  Slight difference-I wasn't doing it to start a discussion.  BPDh had a special ability to fall asleep during discussions.  I eventually learned to go in the other room and cry and pray until I was able to let go of the hurt.  BUT, I never touched him, shook him, spoke his name, or did other things that would actively wake him up.

I do find the red dress thing ironic.    Is there any way that your wife can contribute financially to earning the money for the dress?  I don't think you've mentioned any jobs your wife has or limitations that keep her from working.  I know that options can be limited when you are a SAHM, but there is usually something that can be done - baby sitting, tutoring, house cleaning, etc to earn some money.  While it may be important to her that YOU buy her the dress, you can hold your boundaries of allocating money to the necessities but offer the support she would need to earn the money for the dress so she doesn't have to wait for the magical day when you have surplus money.  Maybe an offer to watch the kids while she works for a few hours a week?
BG

[DaddyBear77]

BG, great suggestions about how she could obtain the dress, etc. I felt part of the irony was that you bought it and it helped you rediscover yourself, but she is demanding that I buy it for her so that I can show her that I really care. At least that's how she frames it. She's really probably demanding it to soothe some part of her that gets soothed when she has new things. Anyway, point here is that a red dress can mean lots of different things in different contexts.

Here's the unfortunate part: my wife used to have a job that paid six figures. Every day at that job meant more and more interpersonal issues; so and so was trying to sabotage her. Every boss either had it out for her or didn't support her or was just generally no good. The kicker is that my wife is brilliant. She really is. Extremely talented. She applied to a prestigious grad school and was accepted no problem. That's another story.

Anyway, she left the job and said "I am never going back to work again. You promised to support me, so step up and do it." And that was that. Any time I bring up "humm, we're in financial deep s__t maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to go back to work?" Her response: "You bast__d! How DARE you try and force me back to work? I'm going to school! You want me to take a menial job AND forgo my education? You make me sick!" Here's the thing: she's going to grad school to obtain a degree in creative writing. There's literally nothing you can do with that degree except maybe teach. Maybe. But she's going to she can learn how to write a novel. So yeah.

The thing is, I work a full time corporate job, which I've exploited by working from home but not really working. Instead I spend 75% of the day with D3, when she's not at preschool, so my wife can do grad school work. For a useless degree. So being around and helping out is pretty much what I do already.

Anyway, just more and more evidence that this situation isn't going to solve itself any time soon. This has been going on for years and years and years.

Time to try that sleeping thing again. Wish me luck ;-)

[Notwendy]

If she were to get the dress, how long would the feeling of being loved last? I would bet that the dress lasts longer, as the feeling is being projected on to the dress ( if only I had the dress ... .) and once the dress is obtained, the feeling would still be there. It may provide temporary relief.

If the dress costs more than $100, and you only have $100, it is simple math that tells you that you can't buy the dress. It's unrealistic to expect otherwise and if you borrow to obtain it, you are validating a delusion.

You may have made a promise to take care of her, and you did fulfill her requests, but it isn't working. Basically, if this is what she needs/wants, if this is the financial cost of her, you can't afford her.

I'm sure this is tough as being a provider can be a source of self esteem, but most people have financial limits. You can't change her but perhaps some self assessment may help you to see your part in this. Some people do choose a lifestyle that is above their means, and this can lead to debt and financial issues. Our peer group and social circle can lead to expectations.

To some extent, everyone faces this. The neighborhood you live in determines your kids' school peers. If all those kids wear a certain brand of clothing, your child may want this too- so they can fit in. If you have friends who like certain restaurants, then that is where you socialize. If your wife's peers and the mothers of the kids at preschool dress, or have their hair done a certain way, or send their kids to private schools, this is part of what she expects too. If she once had a six figure job, this may be the lifestyle she is used to. Nothing wrong with this- don't make her wrong- but can you afford her? Does trying to afford her add to your own self esteem?

Things can change. The two of you seemed to have a combined large income at first, and now you have one. It isn't possible to keep up a lifestyle of two incomes on one- adjustments have to be made. People can have happy marriages, and good friendships at many income levels, but if you observe this- people tend to associate with others at a similar income level. If your wife's peers have designer clothing and top of the line hairstyles, she would not feel comfortable in something inexpensive. But can you afford this lifestyle on your current income?

[Grey Kitty]

... .she is demanding that I buy it for her so that I can show her that I really care. At least that's how she frames it.

She has her beliefs. She frames her need for you to buy budget-busting things for her her way.

(I think!) you don't believe her. You frame see it differently, valuing being financially responsible enough to stay in your home and keep your car and keep food on the table, and utilities on over these things.

The key thing is that it isn't your job to change her mind. All you can convince her is that no matter how WRONG and CRUEL you are, you won't be doing what she thinks you should do. You can't convince her you aren't doing it to harm or punish her.

... .and how has it been going lately? Have you done better avoiding stuff at night?

[DaddyBear77]

Basically, if this is what she needs/wants, if this is the financial cost of her, you can't afford her.
... .
 If your wife's peers have designer clothing and top of the line hairstyles, she would not feel comfortable in something inexpensive. But can you afford this lifestyle on your current income?

This has been sticking in my head since Notwendy wrote it a couple days ago. On the one hand, there is certainly a higher level of affluence where we currently live. My wife may have also grown up in a more affluent area than me. But that's not even the point. This point is, her expectations are what they are. I cannot change them and I cannot keep up with them. So all this back and forth about whether or not she should want what she wants is completely pointless.

The part that DOES concern me is when I start to get personally attacked. Things like "you could make more money if you tried harder" or "you've just been lazy and that's why you can't cut it with me."

And the part that's REALLY crazy is when I compromise my own values and morals for the sake of meeting these expectations. I've always known that if I stopped meeting these expectations, there's a good chance she'll leave. It's time I stopped being so damn afraid of that possibility and maybe even embrase it as potentially one of the better outcomes, as hard as it is to admit that.

GK, thanks for bumping this. Sleeping is marginally better but I'm not sure it will be so tonight. It never really lasts for long. At least I have some tools.

[Grey Kitty]

I've always known that if I stopped meeting these expectations, there's a good chance she'll leave.

Has she actually taken action to leave before?

Past behavior is one of the best indications of future behavior.

I'm guessing she is a LOT more likely to continue to berate you and badger you for years and years and years, probably with threats to leave... .

... .without actually walking out the door.

I mean she's kept at you for big ticket items for a couple years in a row already. That's not showing any sign of leaving!

Sadly, the way it has been sounds harder on you than what it would be if she did leave.

And my bet is that the only way your marriage will end is if you leave.