Penalty for udstbxBPDw Disregarding ATROS?

[RedPill]

Not sure if this is actually going to happen BUT ... .

UdstbxBPDw is about to take D15 on a previously planned vacation out of state. I was originally going too but after being served with divorce papers I was uninvited.

Problem is, she has not asked for nor have I provided any "written consent" to allow her to take D15 out of state. This is #1 on the list of Automatic Temporary Restraining Orders on the Summons (ATROS) I received. They apply to both parties. Since I took the time to read the Summons, I am aware of this restriction. She, being entitled and unfocused, is probably ignorant of the details.

I'm very tired of cleaning up her messes, especially as she is requesting full custody (even though I can document a 68%/32% childcare advantage) and is well-positioned to rake me over the coals financially due to my income, retirement, and our long-term marriage (even though she has $100k in a trust inheritance locked away somewhere).

If I'm to take advantage of her F-up, what do I do? Is this a big deal? I will ask my lawyer as the day draws near if she hasn't asked for the consent. It's very close now. Anyone have experience in this?
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Thanks,
RP

[ForeverDad]

Technically it is a Contempt of the temporary order.  However my understanding from a legal standpoint (my experience, I am not a lawyer) nothing can be done until she actually violates the order, planning to proceed doesn't enable you to do anything.  What complicates the issue is you both know of the travel plans.  You are aware of the order's restrictions (she could or should be aware too).

The concern I have is you haven't warned her not to go.  Whether remaining silent now would be a factor in how the court sees this, I just don't know.  Maybe her lawyer told her that since you are aware of the plans then it's okay.  If you are paying for some of the vacation then maybe her lawyer could claim the vacation has your tacit support.

I may be too cautious but unless your lawyer thinks otherwise the most you could get out of this is that (1) going forward she has to obey the temp order and (2) you can give her advance notice that since you were disinvited from this summer's vacation then you will have your own vacation with them this summer.  That's using 'reciprocity', a concept she won't grant, well, unless it is something she wants.

Another factor is that the courts expect temp orders to be temporary.  A typical divorce is usually less than a year.  Sadly, divorces with acting-out PDs involved, whether by lack of cooperation or by obstruction, generally take much longer.  A truism here is that our divorces can take up to two years, more of less.  Should your children not have vacations for two years or more?  Or would it be better to ensure each parent can have vacations with the children?  Her ignoring the terms of the order may give you leverage to get an equal standing in the vacation issue.

About my vacation experiences... .My separation and two year divorce was high conflict.  My temp order didn't specifically address vacations but the court's online Parenting Guideline did.  The first summer separated I gave her my vacation notice.  She was very entitled and predictably she said No.  My lawyer said, go have a good time.  She tried to get an Amber Alert on me but it failed because no one saw me as an abductor.  The next time we were in court the matter was never raised.

A couple years later just before the divorce was final she verbally said she intended to go on a vacation during Spring Break.  I was never given a written notice nor any details and she never mentioned it again.  She left on a Friday (an overnight she had traded to me just days before) at the end of Spring Break week.  She hadn't even notified school that son wouldn't attend school the week she was gone.  My lawyer said it was a slam dunk to file a Contempt of Court.  But court ruled that "mother wasn't 'technically' in default" (magistrate's words) because the temp order had ended and the new Final Decree didn't give her a full 30 days to have "an ability to comply".  That she didn't even try to comply was ignored.

That was my experience, my impression was that my court wasn't inclined to ramp up the conflict of the divorce process.  Maybe your strategy would work, maybe not, I'm torn.

[takingandsending]

Talk to your L. If your D is looking forward to the vacation, I'd be inclined to let her take it. But in your written consent, state that you will have equal time vacation with your daughter in the calendar year. If you really have the custody advantage, start documenting that. That is key. And be prepared to go through discovery process to unearth her trust fund. pwBPD believe they are entitled to half or more of everything of yours but you are entitled to none of theirs. Going through it with my stbxw.

[flourdust]

I haven't found that courts are looking to entrap people by catching them in every mistake.

Since you know about the trip, if your wife goes on it and doesn't request consent, and you complain about it afterwards, the court is going to look askance at your attempt at a "gotcha." They will ask, quite reasonably, if you knew about the trip and didn't object beforehand, are you raising this complaint afterwards just to try to get your wife in trouble?

If you remind your wife that she needs consent, and she requests it, what will you do? Is it your intent to deny consent for the trip? Or to bargain for her consent for a trip of your own, as ForeverDad suggests?

If you're looking to use consent for trip this as leverage to get financial concessions out of her ... .I also don't think that court will appreciate that.

[Grey Kitty]

I think the reason for this kind of travel restriction is to prevent one parent from taking the child out of the courts jurisdiction and making it easier to run off, keeping the child away from the other parent illegally.

You don't mention this as a possibility. If it is just a vacation, the only issue is getting your share of vacation time--a much smaller problem (in the court's eyes, anyhow!)

Also, I've heard folks here suggest that the courts are looking out for the interests of the child, and will (eventually) tend to side with a parent who demonstrates that they are concerned with the interests of the child over one who demonstrates that they are concerned with themself or with punishing the other spouse. Be a "good" parent in that definition.

What is good for D15? What does she want?

She should be old enough to have a pretty good idea whether she wants to go or not.

You might be able to "get" your ex... .but if you want a good relationship with D15, don't act against her, and don't use her as a pawn with the courts.

[ForMySon]

It sounds like you are hurt, and that isn't allowing you to see through the FOG. I understand that you had expectations to go on this trip, and you maybe even took time to plan it. Now you have been uninvited, and that isn't the outcome you expected. Don't let this cloud your judgement of what is best for your child. Use that time to hang out with friends, and work on getting yourself to a level - headed spot.

I'm wondering what your reservations about the vacation are. Are you scared they won't come back with the child? Are you worried about the child being in danger while with the parent in anyway? I would say that if you have actual reservations, I would voice them with your ex. If you have no reservations let your child go on vacation, and get your vacation time in as well at a later point.

[ForeverDad]

Frankly, wouldn't a separate vacation with your daughter be oh so much more peaceful?  If you agree, then be sure you communicate to your stbEx ASAP that since she doesn't want you on 'her' vacation then you will choose a vacation of your own later on in the summer.  Since many courts have a due date for vacation notices, often about May 15 for summer vacations, select a date range sooner than later.  If she later contests and it becomes an issue in court then you can document (1) she excluded you from the already scheduled vacation and (2) you gave her as much advance notice as you could.

Remember that you can't schedule a vacation on a holiday she would be assigned.  Most courts have online standard holiday and special events schedules.  Generally vacations can be one or two weeks max.  For example, if she would get July 4 Independence Day then you can't schedule a vacation from June 25 to July 9 across her holiday.  The priority is: (1) holiday, (2) vacation, (3) agreed trades*, (4) regular schedule.

A warning about traded time.  Make sure it is always documented in writing of some sort the police and courts will recognize.  On paper, in emails, perhaps in texts, anything but verbal!  Why?  Early in my years apart she wanted only verbal.  It stung me too often.  I finally decided that I would agree to trades only if I got my time first.  I just couldn't count on her to reciprocate and let me get my time after she got what she wanted.

Is she expecting you to pay for this upcoming vacation or have you already paid for parts of it?  Figure out how much money you will provide, not so much as to hamstring it but also limited so she can't splurge.  (If you have joint credit card accounts that may be hard to enforce limits.)

Have you separated your credit and bank accounts?  Joint accounts are real problems, especially credit accounts.  In my case, I thought I was safe using the joint bank account to pay her monthly.  Then one month she took out too much money and we had a negative balance.  Then the bank fees kept being charged daily for about 10 days before I got a notice.  I got a couple days adjusted off but left the rest for her to deal with.  What I did was transfer over the next month's payment a little early to stop the fees and so she got less the next time.

[flourdust]

The priority is: (1) holiday, (2) vacation, (3) agreed trades*, (4) regular schedule.

I'm curious about this. Why would agreed trades be a lower priority? I'd assume they are #1 priority, as both parents are agreeing to a schedule change that supersedes the contract.

[RedPill]

Some context: the vacation was planned pre-divorce Summons for the three of us as a birthday getaway for pwBPD & D15 who have birthdays two days apart. D15 is absolutely excited to go on the trip (and understands why I am not going) and I am not inclined to spoil her birthday by not allowing them to go. PwBPD planned and paid for the trip from her independent inheritance account. They are going to LV, NV to a fancy hotel. Expensive.

HOWEVER.

Since you know about the trip, if your wife goes on it and doesn't request consent, and you complain about it afterwards, the court is going to look askance at your attempt at a "gotcha." They will ask, quite reasonably, if you knew about the trip and didn't object beforehand, are you raising this complaint afterwards just to try to get your wife in trouble?

I respect everyone's questions regarding my motivations for contemplating actions on this issue, and I have taken a honest look at my reasons. The issue is less of a response to feeling butt-hurt about the trip in particular (I got over that pretty quickly) and more about the accountability of pwBPD's actions. This is classic pwBPD; she impulsively jumps into action without fully comprehending the consequences, screws up, and then I pick up the pieces. She decided to leave our marriage. She filed the papers. The standard restraining orders were clear. Why should I be the one to protect her from herself? Why should she not be accountable for her mistake and suffer the consequences? I am not eager to see her get into trouble. I would prefer that she acted in accordance with the rules and obligations of the restraining orders that she initiated. But this ignorance and disrespect for the rules and lack of accountability is a pattern of behavior that I would like to see recorded as a reflection of her lack of responsible co-parenting ability.

As I've learned about BPD from this site and Bill Eddy's divorce book, I am girding myself for a high-conflict fight with my stbx. She has already made numerous paranoid accusations toward me of infidelity, bugging her phone, hacking her computer, and hiding bank accounts, all of which she sincerely believes but fortunately all of which are false. I'm not looking forward to being painted black as this process unfolds and could use some documented leverage the other way.

Are you scared they won't come back with the child? Are you worried about the child being in danger while with the parent in anyway?

I surely hope not. BUT pwBPD has road rages, drives recklessly, and I have been in the the car twice when she has been at fault for near-accidents due to this behavior, once with D15 in the car. Also, the last time she was in LV with D15 she got into some kind of altercation with a stranger on the street. PwBPD and D15 have never talked openly about it, except vaguely that Mom got into a fight. So I have reservations about D15's safety around pwBPD. There have been enough strange and unexpected events that I wouldn't be surprised about much of anything anymore.

Also, I've heard folks here suggest that the courts are looking out for the interests of the child, and will (eventually) tend to side with a parent who demonstrates that they are concerned with the interests of the child over one who demonstrates that they are concerned with themselves or with punishing the other spouse. Be a "good" parent in that definition.

I hear you. And I hope the above is true. It's just so hard to fight the impulse to shine a spotlight on pwBPD saying, "See? This is what she does! This is not a responsible person!" Sometimes it is difficult to take the high road.

I'll contact my L and see how they respond. I'm currently inclined to let them go on the trip but to document the circumstances (that I had to proactively remind her about the restraining order and provide written consent) and my desire for a vacation swap in the future.
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RP

[flourdust]

HOWEVER.I respect everyone's questions regarding my motivations for contemplating actions on this issue, and I have taken a honest look at my reasons. The issue is less of a response to feeling butt-hurt about the trip in particular (I got over that pretty quickly) and more about the accountability of pwBPD's actions. ... .Why should I be the one to protect her from herself? Why should she not be accountable for her mistake and suffer the consequences? ... .But this ignorance and disrespect for the rules and lack of accountability is a pattern of behavior that I would like to see recorded as a reflection of her lack of responsible co-parenting ability.

Look at what I've quoted above. Your reasons are about wanting to punish your wife and wanting others to see her as negatively as you do.

This is not going to be viewed by the court as a constructive approach to developing a parenting plan. This is YOU demonstrating high-conflict thinking.

What's a constructive way to approach this, demonstrating that your primary concern is for D15?

[RedPill]

Hi Flourdust,

Thank you for your post. I appreciate your assessment and I understand why responding in my knee-jerk way could be viewed as high-conflict and not constructive. And I don't want to be that guy. I want what's best for my daughter and myself.

I think my motivations are based in fear. I'm (still) fearful of her judgement, entitlement, blame, and rages. I'm fearful of how her disordered thinking and impulsive behavior could affect my daughter, the light of my life. I'm fearful of my own financial future; just today she wrote an email saying that her lawyer advised her to not contribute to the mortgage, bills, food, and household expenses. I have been the primary earner but we are by no means flush and I'm not sure if I will be able to carry the financial load myself. I'm fearful of further paranoid accusations that she may make to her lawyer or in court. So I'm looking for protection, for leverage to help myself. And I'm so tired of cleaning up her messes.

I haven't heard from my lawyer yet. But I'm trying to accept what you wrote, Flourdust. I'm trying to break out of the fear and resentment and stay above it. But it's so very hard to do.

The constructive thing to do would be to proactively write her the permission letter, requesting reciprocity for a similar vacation for me in the future. But why do I feel like I caved?

This is hard.
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RP

[ForMySon]

You've been codependent for a long time. What your disordered partner wants you want. This seems to be your first true deviation to that plan. You are fearful that your ex will fail on this vacation, you feel obligated to go, and you feel guilty not going because that is how the disordered person has trained you to be. I've only been out of the FOG for 3 months, and I know that you can't truthfully understand how thick it is until you are clear of it for a while.

I think that why you are feeling like you caved, is somewhere inside you wanted to be on this trip as well. You feel like you are caving by not going. Instead of seeing the bad in this, take the time and do something for yourself. Get some time and space away from your disordered ex. You might start seeing things differently, and start being able to handle yourself in a manner that is best for you and your child.

[takingandsending]

Hi RP. I understand it. I am still cleaning up xw messes financially, emotionally, etc. But you will feel better when you have some time and distance. Your D is 15; you have to trust that she can understand and see you standing up and doing the right thing. Most important for her is simply validating her experience, not asking her to be in the middle, and loving her and supporting her choices. Your partner can't do any of that because of BPD. It's up to you and has always been up to you to model the healthy adult and parent. Your wife might be okay at times but under stress, your D will know her mom is incapable of being an adult.

I feel for you. So many times I have wanted to call out my xw on her lies, contradictions and double standards. But I am focused on what is best for my kids. It's all that gets you through crap like this. Not pay mortgage for the house she is still living in. Brilliant. I am sorry for what you are going through.

[ForeverDad]

The priority is: (1) holiday, (2) vacation, (3) agreed trades*, (4) regular schedule.

I'm curious about this. Why would agreed trades be a lower priority? I'd assume they are #1 priority, as both parents are agreeing to a schedule change that supersedes the contract.

I agree it sounds like it should be ordered differently but I put them in that order knowing that the court is likely to be more concerned and attentive about its own exceptions to the scheduled time that is listed in the order.  I just listed that order from my personal experience.  All in the eyes of the beholder?

Considering that their two birthdays are so close together, I can understand how your Ex is so entitled about those plans.  However, I have a couple thoughts.

First, courts typically assign parents alternating years for the children's birthdays.  Courts typically ignore the parents' birthdays.  Look at your court's boilerplates on holidays and events such as birthdays.  If this odd year isn't mother's year, then ask the court to reverse that part of the scheduled exception events so you get the even years.

Second, ponder this perspective, acknowledging that each year one parent will not get a birthday with the daughter:  Should you make your daughter feel a loss... .or should you pragmatically declare daughter will get two birthdays each year, one with you and one with her mother, with the court's schedule deciding which parent has to make alternate plans when not his or her year?

[ForeverDad]

Ponder too that our perspective about how unfair it is is not necessarily reflected by the court.  After all, it's a judicial system, not a justice system.  You may not get much positive response even if you spell it out in detail for the court.  Maybe you will, I just don't know.  But you may have to learn how to make an omelet when the eggs are broken.

I had unfairness in my separation and divorce, surely everyone else here too.  I recall the time between temp orders (one was for the separation and the other when I filed for divorce).  There was 3 months between the orders and I didn't get any in-person father-child contact the entire time with our preschooler, I think maybe only one brief call soon after the first orders (for 'protection' were dismissed.  When we were back in court for the divorce - with the very same magistrate - she confirmed to him that she had blocked me for 3 months.  His response was to pronounce, "I'll fix that."  His simple fix was to basically reinstate the same order, though this time he added that she would get child support.  No makeup time for me, no consequences for her.  I felt it was the height of unfairness but the magistrate clearly felt he only needed to fix things going forward.

Some things will go your way, some things won't.  Just try to make your case from the perspective of a problem solver in addition to reporting the problems.  For example, my lawyer didn't speak up and ask for makeup time.  He told me to be quiet and he'd fix things later.  Well, later turned out to be at the Final Decree nearly two years later.  In some ways my lawyer was a little too laid back but at least he got me through the divorce and did so at less expense than most lawyers.

[RedPill]

Thanks all for your input. After consulting with my lawyer, I decided to proactively provide the consent pwBPD legally needed to travel out of state with D15, with the expectation of reciprocity for a vacation of my own with D15. My lawyers drafted a quick email and sent it to pwBPD's lawyers to make sure there was a record. And that was it.

Just try to make your case from the perspective of a problem solver in addition to reporting the problems.

Did I do good?

My lawyers were a little surpised and miffed that pwBPD was not following the ATROS (automatic temp. restraining orders) from her own Summons. They asked if I felt the situation was unsafe. The answer being no, they chalked it up to ignorance or entitlement and advised to document and proactively let her go. They did comment that it would be hard to square taking an expensive vacation while also desiring full financial support.

Thanks again and onward we go... .
RP

[ForeverDad]

Did I do good?

I'd raise my hand a Yes to that.  Of course, we're not there and we may not have every detail so that's why you always make the final call.  Will your ex appreciate you finding that solution, stating that you get your own vacation later.  Probably not, depends on how entitled and obstructive she is.  And whether she gets herself triggered until then.

My lawyers were a little surprised and miffed that pwBPD was not following the ATROS (automatic temp. restraining orders) from her own Summons... .They did comment that it would be hard to square taking an expensive vacation while also desiring full financial support.

Well, it's her money to splurge.  Or is it her money?  Oh, does she earn less than you?  Does she even work?  There's no excuse for her not to be working, especially since there are no small children in the house.  (Even then there is school and daycare as resources many families use.)  If I haven't said this before in one of my posts, with the marriage ending, she needs to look to the future and find a job or career.  In many cases these days alimony is simply a transition support for the financially disadvantaged spouse to get a start in post-marriage life.  Your refrain in court should always be that she is capable of work and ought to be starting on that course sooner rather than later.  If she has a separate inheritance, then she won't be destitute or abandoned.  If she gets some equity from the marital assets (after debts subtracted) then she won't be destitute or abandoned.

[RedPill]

Well, it's her money to splurge.  Or is it her money?  Oh, does she earn less than you?  Does she even work?

I'm not sure if she booked the trip with a credit card or used her trust inheritance. She has changed the login password and I can't find any current statements so I can't verify it was the credit card, and she has her trust inheritance in a separate bank account which, again, I do not have access to. If it was the credit card than it would be community debt.

She earns much less than me. Her work history has been erratic. She went through idealization/devaluation with multiple jobs and would end up quitting. I have always been the primary wage earner with the stable, full-time job with benefits.

Your refrain in court should always be that she is capable of work and ought to be starting on that course sooner rather than later.  If she has a separate inheritance, then she won't be destitute or abandoned.

Good to remember. I have always encouraged her to work, and supported the household while she underwent training and took classes in various fields ... .with little consistent return. And she does have the inheritance, although she's going through it pretty quickly.

[ForeverDad]

One common complaint to make you look bad is a claim you're a controller.  Typically part of that is Isolation.  You having a history of wanting her to work would tend to discount the Controller claim.  (Actually many who arrive here report that they were the ones isolated over time from family and friends.  So a lot of such claims turn out to be projection, it applies more about her than you.

She's an adult.  The court will not care what she does with the things under her control such as an inheritance.  Court won't try to fix either of you.  While it may encourage counseling for both of you, it won't try hard to change either of you.  It will deal with the spouses/parents largely as they are.  The court orders are to set limits (boundaries) in an attempt to ensure things don't get out of hand.  It is often said that while courts care more about following procedures and policies then being fair, they're generally 'less unfair' than the obstructive other parent.

Who is the account holder for the credit card?  That is, is it hers alone?  If it's a joint account then you have every right to have access to it.  Well, unless the court says No.  Understand the difference between account holder and card holder.