How to respond to these

[MrRight]

I need some guidance on how to respond to many stock phrases my uBPD wife hits me with each day. can you help?

example one:

"What are you thinking about?"

this one has me stumped - it really does. no idea how to deal with it except make up something neutral - nice weather for example.

"why haven't you done X "(eg washed the dishes)

"you've destroyed my mood"

this one is serious - ok try validation - but I also need to undestroy her mood - make it better. This is one of the worst.

"why did it take you so long to do X?" (angry)

maybe she sent me out to the car to fetch her hairbrush for example. how to repsond. I'm there and back in 1minute.

"you're obsessed with going to the toilet"

I am quite normal in this department in fact - but it's a big thing for her - puts her out. I'm not allowed to stop the car and use toilet unless she also wants to go and in the house getting out of bed in middle of night is not good.

"Why do you always set a bad example to our S14? Why do you hate us so much?"

"Oh - now look what you've made me do!"
drops a spoon on kitchen floor while listening to me talk and will follow up with
You always yap! yap yap yap!


OK people - you know more about BPD than I do. please - I need some help here. this is just for a start.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[teapay]

She is projecting and controling; trying to get rid of bad feelings and anxiety.  Is your desire to keep her from escalating or exert your self?

[MrRight]

She is projecting and controling; trying to get rid of bad feelings and anxiety.  Is your desire to keep her from escalating or exert your self?

prevent escalation would be an excellent start and be a major improvement in my life quality

but she's cunning - I tried the emotion validation strategy and she has begun to notice - telling me "stop that!" when I validate her feelings with an empathy comment.

[AnonUK]

All these are so familiar to me.My husband shows traits of BPD.  I have read and known about BPD just a few months ago. I have read a lot and also in the process of stop making things worst and bringing down the escalations and drama.
I am no expert but will just mention a few points which worked for me.


When they are raging or in the moment of high anger , there is nothing much you can do. Just be calm, hear it out and if not possible to bear, try to leave on some pretext. Do not JADE.

But when they are not actually raging or not in that moment of high anger, but generally grumbling, then I think you can respond to these questions e.g.
 
"you're obsessed with going to the toilet" -

let her say it or object to it or whatever. Do not respond in particular to the comment. Be calm. Just say I need to go and take the break. Do not justify.   Before leaving for a long ride/journey, just mention that you will stop for toilet if required. They will grumble, but will be mentally prepared for it. During journey, you can ask her to come along if she wishes to wash her face/hands. This will work if she is not allowing you to go for the fear of being left alone.

"why did it take you so long to do X?" (angry)

my husband uses this a lot. I think it is just a control mechanism. They just say it to keep the pressure on us. Be calm. if it was really a 1 min thing then, do not reply in particular and justify. Just divert/dodge the topic (without making it very obvious). if you were discussing something earlier just mention something about it or if there is no such thing then just give the hairbrush.
If there was something that got you delayed then be honest and mention it. PS: When the BPD asks you to do some work and you agree to do it then give it the highest priority. Avoid doing anything else while you pick up the hairbrush.

You always yap! yap yap yap!
I keep the discussions minimum descriptive (2-3 sentences). Sentences are short, clear and unambiguous. Then wait for the reaction. If  in good mood they themselves will start talking or asking questions and it continues from there. I always keep it short and check the feedback. I have noticed that my husband looses his attention instantly if any kind of discussion is not related to him. He does not like me taking interest in anything apart from him or his work.

So my general tips are :
Don't justify unnecessary.Be calm . Don't be tempted to reply instantly. It will start a argument which is avoidable by just keeping quite.
If you sense emotions getting high ... .try to distract/divert their attention. Make sure you divert the attention to something related and of interest to them.

[Grey Kitty]

Except for "what are you thinking about?" those examples all share a common thread:

They are provoking you to invalidate or JADE, and make things worse. If you answer directly and literally, you can pretty much guarantee that she will be more angry with you after than she already was when she asked.

I'm not suggesting that she's aware that she's trying to escalate the fight... .just saying that this is the pattern the two of you have, and that's where it is going unless you do something different.

Step one is learning not to invalidate, not to JADE. Even if all you can do is zip your mouth shut, that is progress, and it is better than the alternative.

The next step is learning better ways to respond that have a chance of improving the situation.

but she's cunning - I tried the emotion validation strategy and she has begun to notice - telling me "stop that!" when I validate her feelings with an empathy comment.

Validation is a new skill--it takes practice to get it right. If you are learning to ski, would you start by going down the double black diamond trail in an ice storm, and expect it to go well?

As a target for validation, a pwBPD is the double black diamond trail. And doing it when she's already angry is the ice storm.

Practice validating her feelings when she's not upset. It will be easier.

Practice validating other people who aren't mentally ill. It will be easier.

Your skills at it will improve. You'll have a better chance of going down the mountain without wrapping yourself around a tree... .

Last suggestion: Let us help you in one of these situations. Pick one recent example, and give us the full dialog--what she said, what you said, how angry she was seeming, when/if you were afraid of what was coming next, etc. I find it much easier to work with specific situations.

[Tattered Heart]

One thing I"ve started doing when my H asks me questions that really have no right way of answering is to turn a question back on him.

For example, if your wife says, "Why do you always set such a bad example for our S14?" The response could be, "Could you be more specific please?" or "I want to understand. Would you please explain what you mean a little more?"

Most of the time this works because my H really doesn't want to gripe at me, he just has something on his mind (often projection) that he wants to say so turning it on me allows him to open the door. By asking him questions back 1) It shows I'm interested and care about what he is saying 2) It requires him to be specific and direct and usually when he has to do either of those things, his complaints disappears completely because there really isn't a complaint 3) He has to get out of his emotions and into his reasoning mind in order to answer so he de-escalates.

As for the obsessed with the bathroom question, my response would be concerned, ":)o you think I should be worried about how often I have to go to the bathroom? What's a normal number of times to go in day? Should I go to the doctor? I want to make sure I'm ok."   She will have absolutely NO answer to that because her accusation is unreasonable and she has never really thought about it.

[MrRight]

One thing I"ve started doing when my H asks me questions that really have no right way of answering is to turn a question back on him.

For example, if your wife says, "Why do you always set such a bad example for our S14?" The response could be, "Could you be more specific please?" or "I want to understand. Would you please explain what you mean a little more?"

Most of the time this works because my H really doesn't want to gripe at me, he just has something on his mind (often projection) that he wants to say so turning it on me allows him to open the door. By asking him questions back 1) It shows I'm interested and care about what he is saying 2) It requires him to be specific and direct and usually when he has to do either of those things, his complaints disappears completely because there really isn't a complaint 3) He has to get out of his emotions and into his reasoning mind in order to answer so he de-escalates.

As for the obsessed with the bathroom question, my response would be concerned, ":)o you think I should be worried about how often I have to go to the bathroom? What's a normal number of times to go in day? Should I go to the doctor? I want to make sure I'm ok."   She will have absolutely NO answer to that because her accusation is unreasonable and she has never really thought about it.

Thanks - good tip there with the toilet question. I'll try that.

with her telling me to set a better example to out S14 - she is specific. She doesnt like the quality of my humour which she considers to be the humour of a low working man. She wants me to stop that. So in private I enjoy a good laugh with my son but when she's around I have to watch what i say.

[MrRight]

Except for "what are you thinking about?" those examples all share a common thread:

They are provoking you to invalidate or JADE, and make things worse. If you answer directly and literally, you can pretty much guarantee that she will be more angry with you after than she already was when she asked.

I'm not suggesting that she's aware that she's trying to escalate the fight... .just saying that this is the pattern the two of you have, and that's where it is going unless you do something different.

Step one is learning not to invalidate, not to JADE. Even if all you can do is zip your mouth shut, that is progress, and it is better than the alternative.

The next step is learning better ways to respond that have a chance of improving the situation.

Validation is a new skill--it takes practice to get it right. If you are learning to ski, would you start by going down the double black diamond trail in an ice storm, and expect it to go well?

As a target for validation, a pwBPD is the double black diamond trail. And doing it when she's already angry is the ice storm.

Practice validating her feelings when she's not upset. It will be easier.

Practice validating other people who aren't mentally ill. It will be easier.

Your skills at it will improve. You'll have a better chance of going down the mountain without wrapping yourself around a tree... .

Last suggestion: Let us help you in one of these situations. Pick one recent example, and give us the full dialog--what she said, what you said, how angry she was seeming, when/if you were afraid of what was coming next, etc. I find it much easier to work with specific situations.

Thank you Grey Kitty. OK this happens every day.

After we drop off S14 to school we come home and ideally I need to get to work in my home office asap - but she likes breakfast no 2 which can last up to 1 1/2 hours! So I make a coffee and toast in the kitchen while she checks her email

voice from office

W - only you can spend a whole morning making 2 coffees and a piece of toast
me - it's nearly done
W- sarcastic yawn sound - let me know when its ready - what't that sound? why did you open the door?
me - I need to empty the rubbish
w- not when S14 is at school! I told you! Ass.
me - sorry.
w - you never listen. you are never organised
me- its ready (I take food etc to lounge and wait - 5 minutes later she appears)
10 minutes of talk about S14 school etc minor issues - then monologue lasting 10 minutes from her about this or that
me - (starting to fidgit)
W- what's wrong with you! do you need the xxxxxing toilet!
me - no no it's fine
W- look just give me a nice coffee and you can go to work
me - we just had a coffee
w - no we didnt have a nice coffee - you didnt say anything - make me another
10 minutes later - fresh coffee no 2
more chat going nowhere - coffee finished - me fidgiting again - want to go to work - bored!
w - say something meaningful - i've got work too - dont muck up my day!
me - right - well we agreed on x didnt we - i think that's good
w- you ass - I mean it (bares teeth, eyes flash and bulge)
me - I really like this little rosebush you are growing on the window ledge.

and so on and so on until I find something to wind up the talk

help!

[Grey Kitty]

If I was in your shoes, I'd be looking to enforce boundaries, instead of trying to validate in this situation.

I think your willingness to make her breakfast (coffee and toast) is a really nice gesture on your part. I believe that doing things like that is what a marriage is supposed to be based on... .HOWEVER... .

I wouldn't do it if I was getting verbal abuse while I was doing something for her. Yeah, a bit of gratitude would be nice, 'tho I'd probably do something like that even without it. But this is too far.

she likes breakfast no 2 which can last up to 1 1/2 hours! So I make a coffee and toast in the kitchen while she checks her email

voice from office

W - only you can spend a whole morning making 2 coffees and a piece of toast
me - it's nearly done

I'd stop right there, and instead I'd say something like "I'm not going to make you toast and coffee for you while you criticize me."

If you can leave your home office and go to an outside office, I'd be ready to depart ASAP, as she will probably respond badly, and you'll likely be doing that anyways.

If you don't, maybe be ready to pack up your computer, phone, a couple files, and go to Starbucks for a few hours, at least.

What do you think of that new plan?

[MrRight]

If I was in your shoes, I'd be looking to enforce boundaries, instead of trying to validate in this situation.

I think your willingness to make her breakfast (coffee and toast) is a really nice gesture on your part. I believe that doing things like that is what a marriage is supposed to be based on... .HOWEVER... .

I wouldn't do it if I was getting verbal abuse while I was doing something for her. Yeah, a bit of gratitude would be nice, 'tho I'd probably do something like that even without it. But this is too far.

I'd stop right there, and instead I'd say something like "I'm not going to make you toast and coffee for you while you criticize me."

If you can leave your home office and go to an outside office, I'd be ready to depart ASAP, as she will probably respond badly, and you'll likely be doing that anyways.

If you don't, maybe be ready to pack up your computer, phone, a couple files, and go to Starbucks for a few hours, at least.

What do you think of that new plan?

Mmm - well - we live in a village so no cafe here. I trade from home and if she cant get her own way or I challenge her authority - she typically will start to wreak havoc on my computer, stock etc. She knows this gets to me - as we are deep in debt and on a knife edge all the time. She also knows our S14 is 25 miles away at school and relying on me for a life home. I tried walking out in the past and she goes after me accusing me etc then when we're back in the house the big trouble really starts.
It's not so easy enforcing boundaries on someone who is prepared to go to extremes. Your strategy is possibly for a mild case of BPD - not a wrecker like the person I live with.

[MrRight]

One thing I"ve started doing when my H asks me questions that really have no right way of answering is to turn a question back on him.

For example, if your wife says, "Why do you always set such a bad example for our S14?" The response could be, "Could you be more specific please?" or "I want to understand. Would you please explain what you mean a little more?"

Most of the time this works because my H really doesn't want to gripe at me, he just has something on his mind (often projection) that he wants to say so turning it on me allows him to open the door. By asking him questions back 1) It shows I'm interested and care about what he is saying 2) It requires him to be specific and direct and usually when he has to do either of those things, his complaints disappears completely because there really isn't a complaint 3) He has to get out of his emotions and into his reasoning mind in order to answer so he de-escalates.

As for the obsessed with the bathroom question, my response would be concerned, ":)o you think I should be worried about how often I have to go to the bathroom? What's a normal number of times to go in day? Should I go to the doctor? I want to make sure I'm ok."   She will have absolutely NO answer to that because her accusation is unreasonable and she has never really thought about it.

Right - some minor success with one of your suggestions. Not on the toilet issue - but on my shower in the morning where she always puts me down for taking too much time and slowing the family down. So today when she said "why do you take forever in the shower when the family is waiting to have breakfast?" I said "I took 5 minutes and that is the time necessary to get clean - you want me to be clean dont you?"

she went silent and moved on.

[Grey Kitty]

It's not so easy enforcing boundaries on someone who is prepared to go to extremes. Your strategy is possibly for a mild case of BPD - not a wrecker like the person I live with.

It is never easy to enforce boundaries... .and in your case, you already know your wife will do a great deal to punish and harm you.

But here's the problem--she KNOWS she can and will 'win' if she takes it that far. And she does. Pretty much every time, from what you are saying.

And what happens every morning is this--she's upset--she has her own feelings. They are uncomfortable feelings. (This is happening, even if she never speaks of her own feelings, trust me.) Her way of coping with them is to take out all her frustrations on an emotional punching bag, aka YOU. What I read in your example dialog was that she was working really hard to make sure that you were WRONG, so she could blame you. No matter what you did. If you made a sound or said anything, she attacked you for that. If you didn't, she attacked you for not doing anything. The whole point was to manufacture something to blame you for, and then beat you up over it. (If you actually did something blame-worthy, that would be a bonus for her, but wouldn't matter)

You can improve--stop invalidating her as much, and even try to validate her too... .but if she needs to manufacture something to attack you over, that won't be enough--it will go on, perhaps getting worse.

Are you willing to have every morning continue like this?

[BeagleGirl]

Mmm - well - we live in a village so no cafe here. I trade from home and if she cant get her own way or I challenge her authority - she typically will start to wreak havoc on my computer, stock etc. She knows this gets to me - as we are deep in debt and on a knife edge all the time. She also knows our S14 is 25 miles away at school and relying on me for a life home. I tried walking out in the past and she goes after me accusing me etc then when we're back in the house the big trouble really starts.

How far away is the nearest cafe with internet access?  I suggest you try this - adjusting times to compensate for the time you actual start "Coffee 2" and time to get to the nearest cafe.

Coffee 2 usually goes from 8:30-10:00.  Drive to cafe takes 30 minutes.

You:  I need to put in some extra trading time for the next two weeks.  I value our coffee time after dropping off S14, so I'd like to make you coffee and have a conversation, but I will need to finish our coffee time by 9:30 each morning.  Would you like to join me in the kitchen while I make the coffee and toast so we can make the most of the time I have?

Wife: {Fill in whatever you think her response will be}

When the coffee 2 discussion starts, remind her that you need to end the conversation at 9:30.  It might be advisable to set a timer and let her know you are doing it so you won't be distracted by watching the time.

If she implies that you have said nothing of value and asks you to come up with something you can respond with "I don't really have much more to say.  Is there a topic you would like to hear my opinion on?" 

If she volunteers something to talk about and you aren't prepared for that topic or if she doesn't volunteer something you can offer "I'd like to make the most of this conversation time.  Since I haven't thought through that topic/don't really have anything on my mind to share with you now, I'm going to start work early, give it some thought, and tack on this extra time to our conversation tomorrow."

Here's the important part - DISENGAGE from the conversation at that point.  If she comes up with a topic or wants to fight, give it until 9:30, but that is the boundary.  If she does not respect the boundary: "I'd like to be able to work here today, but I'm not able to focus while you are continuing the conversation.  I will be working from x today.  I will return at y."  and LEAVE.  Let her follow you around as you pack up your computer and whatever else you need to take with you, but LEAVE.

If she decides that she needs to berate you for this behavior - "I understand that we need to talk about what happened today.  I want to do that after S14 is in bed for the night or in the morning during our coffee 2 time". 

Day 2-14:  If Day 1 went as described, have your bag packed and ready to go work from the cafe.  You may choose to say "I need to focus on work and be started by 9:30.  Since it didn't work for me to stay here yesterday, I will need to end our conversation at 9:00 so I have time to drive to the cafe."  You could offer to try working from home another day as long as the conversation ends at 9:30, or you may just decide this is a good way to get your work done while she learns how to self soothe.

Hopefully the two weeks will give time to start forming and reinforcing boundaries that you can maintain from that point on. 

Thoughts?

[MrRight]

Grey Kitty and Beagle Girl - I dont deserve you! Great advice - I am touched that you went to all that trouble.
There are certainly elements that I can use in your advice particularly in terms of closing down the conversation.
But those options are a bit too dramatic. My sense is - knowing her as I do - they will create for me more trouble.

I sense in her a terrible painful despair when she's with me and I'm trying to wind things up. It's truly awful I have someone so dependent on me - I never wanted anyone to want to be my shadow like she does (her wish and words) - even a well balanced woman - never mind a disturbed individual like this. I'm surprised she cant see she's wasting her life with me - as much as I'm wasting my life with her. She claims, as she aways has, she loves me! When she flips she is capable of taking that back and saying I never loved you - I'm only with you for S14 - and you're barely a father to him, but he loves you. Then she'll calm down later and be all over me and ask, do you forgive me? I just shrug my shoulders and smile. What else can I say?

So back to the situation in hand - I think I need to make small improvements to my situation. She's capable of causing a lot of harm so I need to make small changes - not major ones. Some have been mentioned that I already use - I try to keep my lips shut tight when she explodes, criticises etc - and wait for the storm to pass. And I already worked out a long time ago that a storm can be stopped before it becomes a gale by diverting the topic. If I say the wrong thing and I see her teeth bared about to explode I can quickly change topic to something nice she's interested in.
One problem i do have is paying attention to everything she says - and she is capable of talking a lot - so when she wants a response I get into trouble as she hates not being listened to and understood. But I am often in my own world when I am forced into this life of being with her nearly all the time. It is truly mind numbing as I am interested in virtually nothing she says.
My one consolation since finding this site is there are other people in the same boat as me  - I finally in my life found a community where I belong - isnt that wonderful - not quite what I had in mind 30 years ago of course.

[Grey Kitty]

So back to the situation in hand - I think I need to make small improvements to my situation. She's capable of causing a lot of harm so I need to make small changes - not major ones. Some have been mentioned that I already use - I try to keep my lips shut tight when she explodes, criticises etc - and wait for the storm to pass. And I already worked out a long time ago that a storm can be stopped before it becomes a gale by diverting the topic. If I say the wrong thing and I see her teeth bared about to explode I can quickly change topic to something nice she's interested in.

I do understand your fear of confronting her directly--and I believe it is valid--Given how BPD works, your expectation that she will ramp up the intensity of attacks on you if you take a stand is pretty much spot on.

What you may not realize is that this kind of abuse--the stuff you go through each morning, for example--isn't normally static. It either escalates or de-escalates over time as a rule.

If you do nothing, it will probably escalate--becoming longer, more vitriolic, or ramping up to physical abuse.

If you take a stand, and refuse to allow yourself to be abused, she will initially go through an extinction burst. (which looks like trying harder to knock you back in line, until you prove to her that you aren't going to cave this time.) But once you prove to her that you will consistently not put up with the verbal abuse, she will stop trying it. Or stop trying as hard before she backs down, or stop trying it as often.

You do have to be prepared to stand strong through the extinction burst if you are going to succeed, and we can help you plan that out--it does help.

Meanwhile, see how much difference you are able to make with small changes.

[MrRight]

I do understand your fear of confronting her directly--and I believe it is valid--Given how BPD works, your expectation that she will ramp up the intensity of attacks on you if you take a stand is pretty much spot on.

What you may not realize is that this kind of abuse--the stuff you go through each morning, for example--isn't normally static. It either escalates or de-escalates over time as a rule.

If you do nothing, it will probably escalate--becoming longer, more vitriolic, or ramping up to physical abuse.

If you take a stand, and refuse to allow yourself to be abused, she will initially go through an extinction burst. (which looks like trying harder to knock you back in line, until you prove to her that you aren't going to cave this time.) But once you prove to her that you will consistently not put up with the verbal abuse, she will stop trying it. Or stop trying as hard before she backs down, or stop trying it as often.

You do have to be prepared to stand strong through the extinction burst if you are going to succeed, and we can help you plan that out--it does help.

Meanwhile, see how much difference you are able to make with small changes.

You are quite right in what you say. But the physical abuse was at its worse in the first few years when the infant was young - and she knew I was prepared to suffer to protect him from her screaming in front of him etc. But she still knows I'm not prepared to disprupt his education to enforce my will and this is where she derives her power over me. His school educaton will be all done with in 1 year from now - he will no longer need me to take him to school and back and he will have all his exams behind him. I will no longer have the threat - what are you doing to his university chances! Things will look different then. Until then - it's a case of surviving.

[Grey Kitty]

MrRight, I commend you for your honesty with this community, and more importantly, yourself.

If you are unwilling to risk S14's education, and are sure that she will escalate to threaten it, that does leave you putting up with it and waiting.

And I have to say--when we are in a long relationship, we figure out what the best way to hurt our partner is. Human nature, I think. I know my wife managed to get me there. I know that one or two times when I was really angry, I said something that hurt her in her most vulnerable place, and didn't realize why I did it or what I did until after. So I suspect that if you take much of a stand, it will spill over to S14 and interfering with his education. Whether she is intentional and manipulative, or whether she is lashing out instinctively, blindly, not knowing at what, but unfailingly hitting the bullseye.

Anyhow... .know that there will be limits on what you can accomplish to improve your marriage because of this... .but you can still make things better.

So think about your second breakfast routine--an hour and a half of waiting on her, verbal abuse, conversations where you are bored and nervous, but expected to enchant and entertain her, which you then get criticized for failing at... .

In a perfect world, what would this hour and a half be spent doing?

Would you like a pleasant hour and a half conversation with her over coffee?
Would you like a brief chat with her over coffee?
Would you like to skip it entirely, and get to your office, with or without coffee?
Something else?

[MrRight]

In my perfect world I would just go to work. But I recognise - being in a marriage - a coffee and brief chat of 10 minutes before we start work would be sensible and correct.

But I have been reading more about how pwBPD goes to extremes of validation and invalidation. So perhaps you can help me with this.

My wife tends to shower praise on people that have done her some good - far too much and embarassing - we had this with S14 private music teachers - she just piled it on with words - and gave gifts so expensive that we never even spend that much money on oursleves.

She's doing a postgrad couse at present and is lavishing ridiculous praise on one of her lecturers - by email - she has sent him several amounting to the same thing. I usually read them and she says - do you think that is ok? do you think it will do me any harm? what should I tell her without invalidating?

on occasions in the past - those she has overvalidated like this - circumstances may change - one wrong comment - and she's suddenly invalidating to the extreme - accusing people of absurd things - which I consider  to be damaging to us as a family as - and indeed the reputation of our S14. It looks absurd. After such situations I have said to her - best not in future over praise people as you never know what is round the corner.

We got into an awful situation where she wanted to enter S14 for an exam that a small language school said he wasnt ready for - she bullied them a bit and they eventually reluctantly entered him. He failed of course - and my wife went to the school and accused the director of wanting him to fail to prove a point. I was there - I had to look down as I felt so embarassed and ashamed. The director just waved her hand and walked away saying the school was trying to protect him against disappointment caused by likely failure. I knew she would go in and do this awful damage - but I just could not stop her - every time I tried to suggest that there was no conspiracy against S14 she started to get wound up and hostile. I ended up validating all that nonsense. How could I have stopped her?

[Grey Kitty]

Validation and invalidation are not synonyms for praise and criticism.

Validation is acknowledging and accepting somebody for who they are. Invalidation is telling somebody that they shouldn't be the way they are.

What your wife is doing is painting people black or white. If they are painted white, everything about them is wonderful and perfect. If they are black, everything about them is evil. And they can rapidly switch from white to black as you've observed. She does this to you, to school administrators, most everybody.

Now... .painting somebody white isn't actually validating, because they are often praised for things that they didn't even do. It can be invalidating when you get it, because you know the praise is a lie. Many members here have found that while it is 'nicer' to be painted white than painted black, it still doesn't feel good or right.

pwBPD usually are incapable of validation or nearly so, because they are so lost in their own feelings about somebody else that they cannot really see the other person for who they are, and have trouble recognizing feelings in the other person which are different than their own feelings.

I hope this helps you understand what she's doing... .now how to handle it?

She's doing a postgrad couse at present and is lavishing ridiculous praise on one of her lecturers - by email - she has sent him several amounting to the same thing. I usually read them and she says - do you think that is ok? do you think it will do me any harm? what should I tell her without invalidating?

Telling her that she's not being appropriate will be invalidating to her. No getting around that.

Start with asking yourself the question--do you need to act? If you 'let' her do this, will she cause great harm to anybody, especially anybody besides herself? If you don't need to act, quietly agree, accept what she's doing or give a neutral reply tossing it back at her. "He's your professor, you know him better than I do. I'm sure you'll do the right thing."

If you choose to try to stop her, there are communication techniques that will help package up an invalidating truth for her so that she's more likely to be able to accept it.

BTW, I'd recommend letting this one go.

every time I tried to suggest that there was no conspiracy against S14 she started to get wound up and hostile. I ended up validating all that nonsense. How could I have stopped her?

Never validate the invalid. You aren't doing either her or you a favor by agreeing to something you know to be untrue.

When nonsense like that is thrown at you, I find the best approach is to make a single statement like "I don't see a conspiracy against S14." and then refusing to discuss it further.

And more importantly, you can't stop her. She makes her own choices and takes her own actions, and you have some small influence... .but they are her choices.

I'm not sure what would happen at the school if the two of you got into a fight about what they are doing with S14, and neither of you backed down... .but I don't imagine it would work better for S14, and you've already said you won't fight like that for fear of the other destruction she would cause for both you and S14 to break you / beat you down.

[Grey Kitty]

In my perfect world I would just go to work. But I recognise - being in a marriage - a coffee and brief chat of 10 minutes before we start work would be sensible and correct.

A coffee and a 10 minute chat would be a reasonable thing for you to offer your wife. A tiny sacrifice for your marriage. I'd support that. Even if you are being nice despite feeling bored by the chat.

That's not what she is demanding/taking/doing with you every morning. Instead you are providing an hour and a half of being an emotional punching bag for her.

[MrRight]

Thanks Grey Kitty yes I know the distinction between praise and validation.

The validadtion seems to be going quite well - am getting the hang of it - it really does feel though like I'm a therapist and she is an unsuspecting patient.

I did get into trouble this morning though when she started making some insulting statements about my politcal views when driving S14 to school - at the end of her monologue I was so annoyed by it that I invalidated the whole lot by changing the subject and giving her a look - she responded by punching me on the arm twice. That was clumsy of me but how to react?

I also wanted to ask how to respond to day to day criticisms - like you always forget to x or see that's how it all starts because you do this or that. I tend to keep my mouth shut but she generally wants me to say something and acknowledge I have heard and wont do it again. But when I say sorry etc - she still keeps complaining.

She caught me out a while ago on a men's forum in private browsing - I slipped up and left the window open. It caused a lot of trouble for me. The rule is I'm not allowed to do anything but work on my PC. If she catched me looking at the news it generally causes a lot of trouble. because she caught me on that forum - she now throws that at me a lot - no wonder we dont have any money you are on sex forums all the time. How to deal with these accusations?

[Grey Kitty]

If you accept the idea that she has the right to dictate what you do on your computer, you are kinda skunked already.

And if she's insulting you and criticizing you like that, the only solution is to remove yourself from her presence.

Being in a car with a pwBPD has you badly trapped. I've advised other people to just refuse to do that, driving in two separate cars to the same place, or just not going. If you are driving, you can pull over and tell her that you aren't going to drive while you are being verbally attacked. (If she's driving you have even fewer options).

[itsnotmyfaultanymore]

Not to sound critical - but a boundary such as not allowing criticism of you making her coffee and toast is very VERY reasonable.

I would suggest a strong hard look in the mirror - for if you don't change nothing will (certainly not she).

Again I don't mean to sound blunt - but, as someone who has lived in your shoes for many miserable years, I would call the advise given spot on.

[MrRight]

I tried the tip about making her coffee in the morning, sort of. Not too confrontational.

I was making coffee and she started complaining against me - I stopped and said,

"It's a sweet thing when husbands look after their wives by making them coffee in the morning"

that stopped her and made her smile. I probably should have left it at that.

"so do you think it's fair and good to complain and criticise when your husband is doing this sweet thing?"

that wiped the smile off her face

"what did you say?"

she said, anger approaching, then she walked into another room and i heard her say sulkily

"I dont need your coffee"

I left it at that and we did have our coffee - see what happens tomorrow.

[Alayne]

"It's a sweet thing when husbands look after their wives by making them coffee in the morning"

that stopped her and made her smile. I probably should have left it at that.

"so do you think it's fair and good to complain and criticise when your husband is doing this sweet thing?"

I've totally been caught by the shot and chaser.  Her sulking is theoretically fine - no one likes boundaries initially and it sounds like it ended well.  The strategy my marriage counselor recommends and which has worked well for me is to keep it focused on how his (my husband in this case) behavior impacts me since I can't control his perception of his behavior.  To brainstorm, something like: "I love you, and I like to make coffee for you to show you that.  When you criticize how I make your coffee, it hurts my feelings and makes me feel judged and disrespected. I always want you to be able to tell me how you feel, but I need you to be patient and respectful while I do this for you."

If the inevitable, "But I am patient and respectful!" comes out, I can say simply, "It doesn't feel that way to me." and redirect to ":)o you like it when I make you coffee?" if I choose or suggest doing coffee together another (calmer) morning to validate his feelings.

Obviously not a catch-all. He could continue to fritz and then I have to get firmer in setting boundaries, but I've had this be enough to calm him down.