Knowing what to do doesn't make it any easier

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hey everyone - it's been a few days. I've been lurking and replying to a few posts but mostly I've been focused on self care. That starts with self awareness I think, and I've really started to uncover depression and self esteem as major issues I need to handle first and foremost.

I have been avoiding the big issues with uBPDw - finances and family of origin. It hasn't been easy at all. A LOT of deflection, redirection, hugs and snuggles whenever possible. Her anxiety is REALLY bad right now.

I have settled back a little after last week. I know I'm wrong and causing harm. And as I said in the title, I know what I have to do now. I have to. No other choice. But it doesn't make it easy at all. In fact, it's really hard. And the only people I have in my life to turn to are here. So I'm really grateful for that. My family of origin has been pretty distant, which is both surprising and not surprising.  They seemed really supportive a month or two ago, and I know they love me. But is also NOT surprising both because of the situation (they fee hurt, I would assume) and also, let's face it, I had issues from my childhood with them and it's part of why I'm here in the first place.

Anyway, not much to say right now except that it's going slow as I focus on me. Things will pick up soon and I'll keep posting.

Thanks again for listening.

DB

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone - it's been a few days. I've been lurking and replying to a few posts but mostly I've been focused on self care. That starts with self awareness I think, and I've really started to uncover depression and self esteem as major issues I need to handle first and foremost.

I have been avoiding the big issues with uBPDw - finances and family of origin. It hasn't been easy at all. A LOT of deflection, redirection, hugs and snuggles whenever possible. Her anxiety is REALLY bad right now.

I have settled back a little after last week. I know I'm wrong and causing harm. And as I said in the title, I know what I have to do now. I have to. No other choice. But it doesn't make it easy at all. In fact, it's really hard. And the only people I have in my life to turn to are here. So I'm really grateful for that. My family of origin has been pretty distant, which is both surprising and not surprising.  They seemed really supportive a month or two ago, and I know they love me. But is also NOT surprising both because of the situation (they fee hurt, I would assume) and also, let's face it, I had issues from my childhood with them and it's part of why I'm here in the first place.

Anyway, not much to say right now except that it's going slow as I focus on me. Things will pick up soon and I'll keep posting.

Thanks again for listening.

DB

[Grey Kitty]

  That's a mouthful, isn't it!

Please understand that there isn't anything wrong with you or abnormal about you that simply knowing what you 'need' to do isn't enough to make it easy or even enough to make it feel possible.

  Being honest with yourself (and with us) is a great step.

  Taking care of yourself first is another great step!

I have been avoiding the big issues with uBPDw - finances and family of origin.

I've kinda coached you NOT to lead in with them anyhow.

Boundary zero is not letting yourself get sucked into circular arguments, appeasing needy clingyness, and being kept awake at night.

Start there, and build your strength and practice doing that around smaller issues.

If you can't do that, the big issues will turn into one of those... .and you will lose to the verbal/emotional abuse/manipulation, and cave, or at least promise to buy something that you can't/won't to get out of it anyhow.

[DaddyBear77]

Being honest with yourself (and with us) is a great step.

1. I am still promising her the ring and NC with FoO
2. Part of me believes I can do those things and not face dire consequences. I believe I may be delusional.
3. I believe a better life for myself lies beyond this wall of lies
4. I have no idea what life will look like for uBPDw after the walls come down.
5. I have no idea what life will look like for D3 after the walls come down.

[BeagleGirl]

DB,
First of all, it's an honor to be part of your support team.  I hope you know that I'm proud of how far you've already come.

I totally agree with GK.  You have "an elephant to eat" and it has to happen one bite at a time.  

One suggestion I have that might help you keep from feeling like you are sliding further down the slippery slope of lies is to come up with a truthful statement you can make in place of the lies.

When asked something that you can't answer without triggering/"hurting" her:

Possible "Long version" - I know it's very hard for you to feel uncertain about xyz.  It's something that is on my mind as well, but I'm not ready to talk about it right now.  I'm asking you to trust me to deal with that question in due time.  For now, I'd like to focus on abc.

Yes, this could be viewed as a deflection, but it's also a statement of truth.  BPDw will not be particularly happy with it, but it will do no harm to her.  

Possible reactions and counter reactions -
Reaction: BPDw won't drop subject.  Keeps bring it up.
Counter Reaction:  :)B sounds like a broken record, but sticks to the truthful script.  At some point, DB may need to say "I will not discuss this subject now.  If you aren't willing to talk about something else, then I need to end this conversation" and be willing to leave the room/house as necessary.

Reaction:  BPDw latches onto the request to trust you and responds "I DON'T trust you" or "Why should I trust you?".
Counter Reaction:  "I'm sorry you feel that way.  I know that I have not been true to my word in the past.  One of the reasons I am not able to discuss this topic right now is that I want to be certain that I am able to be able handle it in a trustworthy manner.  Your ability to trust me is very important to me."

Reaction:  BPDw starts pulling out every topic you DON'T want to address in an attempt to give on SOMETHING.
Counter Reaction:  "It seems like there are a lot of unresolved issues that you want to hear from me on.  I understand that this is very frustrating for you.  I'm going to continue to ask you to trust me.  I'd like to write them down so that we both know the questions that are still hanging out there.  It might help me if I understand your prioritization of them so that I can focus on the ones that are most important to you first."  

DO NOT get locked into a due date on anything unless YOU are ready to tackle that topic within a given time frame.

I think that buying yourself time without perpetuating/adding to lies is a good goal for right now.  It's a BIG goal, but should also start building strength for tackling some of your other goals.

What do you think?

BG

[Lucky Jim]

Hey DB77,  Your forthrightness about points 1-5 is a step in the right direction, as GK notes.  Maybe you could look at your list as if it's not you, but a trusted advisor, who is reviewing the points.  What might that advisor say to you?  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, DB,  I'm going to respond to the points you raised in the same order:

1.  I am uncertain why you think giving your wife a material present -- a ring -- is the answer to your problems.  The sad reality is that her well of neediness will not be full for long no matter what you give her.  The concept of NC with your FOO, in my view, is self-defeating, because you need their support now more than over.  Plus, isolation leads to desperation.

2.  To think that you can continue on a downward spiral without facing negative consequences may be unrealistic.  Time to perceive the reality of your situation before you have a crash landing, which is what I did.  It's not fun, believe me.

3.  I concur.  Greater happiness awaits, but first you have to tear down the wall of lies, which is not serving you well.

4.  Suggest you focus on your life post-teardown, rather than that of your uBPDw.  She is an adult who is responsible for her own life.

5.  Children are resilient and doing what is right for you will ultimately be the right thing for D3, in my view.

Hang in there,
LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

1. I am still promising her the ring and NC with FoO
2. Part of me believes I can do those things and not face dire consequences. I believe I may be delusional.

Regarding #2, when you say "do these things", which do you mean?

Buying the ring and going NC with your FOO?

Lying to your wife about buying the ring and going NC with your FOO?

[DaddyBear77]

Regarding #2, when you say "do these things", which do you mean?

Buying the ring and going NC with your FOO?

Lying to your wife about buying the ring and going NC with your FOO?

The first one: I falsely believe I can buy the ring and go NC without dire consequences. At some point in the next few months, it is likely I'll have enough cash temporarily on hand - I get paid in "bursts" depending on sales for a given month. This is precisely the reason I've been able to make all my past stupid decisions. It's delusional thinking but I find it worth admitting here, so at least I can see my own delusional destructive thoughts written out in black and white.

[DaddyBear77]

Tomorrow is a payday.

I know that I'm going to give in the same way I always do - when the money hits I'm going to go right along with her demands.

I can't keep avoiding this. The problem only gets worse.

[BeagleGirl]

Daddybear,
Sometimes you do have to pick your battles, and I don't think that buying the ring is necessarily an absolute evil.  What I do think would be harmful is to buy the ring and give it to her with resentment in your heart. 

If you are going to buy the ring, I suggest waiting until you have made peace with the decision. 

If you didn't spend the money on the ring, what would you do with it?  What is the "opportunity cost" of buying the ring?  List these out and recognize that you value the (probably temporary) peace that giving your wife the ring "purchases" more than those things.  Grieve the loss of those things or figure out ways to still have them, though they will be deferred. 

What is the purpose of giving the ring to your wife?  What will that ring remind you of every time you see it on her finger?  Can you get to a place where you can see it as something that you would not have chosen to purchase on your own, but you DID CHOOSE to purchase out of a desire for what is best for yourself, your wife, and the future of your relationship?  Can you see it as the fulfillment of a promise that you made for reasons you are not proud of, but will be proud of fulfilling because you are now going to live a life of integrity?  Can it be a reminder that you don't want to make promises you can't or shouldn't keep because you are committed to being a man of your word regardless of the cost?  Or will it constantly be reminding you of an internal script that says "I'm too weak to stand up to my wife and am willing to sacrifice what is right for what is comfortable."

I'll tell you the story of two rings that my husband gave to me and why I do not wear either of them.

Ring 1 - purchased after I came home from a 3 day business trip to find a truck parked in our driveway.  We had an agreement that purchases over $x would not be made without consulting one another, and this doubly applied to vehicle purchases because of the history of conflict over unwise vehicle purchases.  Not only did BPDh break that agreement, he didn't have the balls to even text me to forewarn me that he had done it.  He just waited for me to find it in the driveway.  He had no clue why I was so upset.  My reaction inspired 2 days of ST on his part where I'm frantically trying to figure out how to repair our relationship and he is working up the courage to ask me for $ so he can get his own place because he doesn't feel like he will ever live up to my standards for a loving husband (that's what he said when he finally broke ST).  I convinced him that we could get through this and started my normal "fixing".  He decided that I "deserved" something of value since he got to keep his truck.  He took me to buy a ring.  Neither the truck nor the ring were planned purchases, so I found something inexpensive (ended up being about 10% of the cost of the used truck) that I liked.  I know the idea was that the ring would communicate that he DID care about me and wanted me to have nice things.  Instead it was a constant reminder of the incident that led to the purchase and, eventually, the lack of change in the way BPDh treated me and our relationship.  I wore it for a while, but less and less frequently, and eventually gave it to his mom.

Ring 2 - Purchased for me to symbolize our reconciliation after my affair.  It is, by far, the most expensive thing I own.  It's beautiful.  It was purchased with money I earned while BPDh's job was "homeschooling" our son (which consisted of very little schooling of our son and a lot of selfish and destructive behavior).  That idea didn't dawn on me until almost 2 years later.  I don't know if I would have started to feel that way if BPDh hadn't refused the offer to put our son in school and find a job or had actually started homeschooling him rather than continuing with the selfish and destructive behavior.  I'll never know.  Now I can't look at the ring without thinking about how little he had to sacrifice to put a pretty ring on my finger and get me to continue acting as wife and "marriage keeper" while he continued to act in his own best interests.  It now sits in a jewelry box in the house that I pay the mortgage for while he tries to figure out if he can afford to move out.  I don't know if I'll ever wear that ring again. 

Your wife may not attach as much meaning to the ring you buy as I did, but I suspect that you will.  I suspect that seeing it on your wife's hand will hold meaning.  My question to you is - What will that meaning be? 

Again, I want to encourage you to not look at purchasing the ring for your wife as an absolute evil.  I think it could be an act of love for yourself and your wife IF you are able to get to that point.  The main "evil" would be to buy the ring out of motives you are ashamed of.
           
BeagleGirl

[DaddyBear77]

BeagleGirl - great perspective and I really appreciate you sharing your stories.

The truth is, every 6 months to a year, I make another major irresponsible purchase. Each purchase has beautiful symbolism and/or important meaning for us, and I do believe she attaches that meaning to it as well. So in that regard I'm always willing to "go the extra mile" to make these things happen. But every time, I either take out net new credit, or I refuse to pay back any of the credit I've already taken out. This comes across, too, and I totally agree with you - it takes away some of the meaning when I have to struggle to make ends meet even harder, and she knows I'm feeling some level of resentment associated with the object.

I can say that I'd love to get the ring, and I believe fully in the symbolism. I know that I really, honestly don't see the ring itself as being evil. Quite the opposite! But the only way to get the ring right now is to refuse to pay the demands of creditors, utility companies, preschool, you name it. No one else gets the money we owe them in favor of this very important and symbolic ring.

That's part of the reason this is so complicated - if you ignore the financial tradeoffs and think only about the importance and symbolism of the ring itself, you really DO start to wonder, "hum, well, maybe it's not such a bad idea after all"

But as I and others have said repeatedly for 6 months now, SOMEONE has to keep the financial tradeoffs in mind. If I don't, I've got a long line of creditors who will try to remind me multiple times a day.

Two years ago we crossed the threshold of barely making ends meet to being in the hole by huge margins each month.

Just to give you another sense of how bad things are:
 - I've let my regular mail sit on a shelf for over 6 months without opening it. 90% of it is a credit card or other bill that I know I have no ability to pay, so I just avoid it.
 - A year ago, I turned off the ringers on all my home phones and every day, 3 or 4 creditors leave voicemails. 8-9 people call every day.
 - As for my cell phone, I've been brave enough a couple of times to pick up the phone and tell them they don't have permission to call. For the rest, I've gotten really good as using the "block call" and the "do not disturb" features. I just checked, and I have about 55 unread voicemails.


I'm writing these things out, again, so I can see them in black and white.

But I can tell you this - I really don't think it would be a good idea to buy that ring right now.

[formflier]

Is there a baby step that can be taken?

Open a separate account... .many banks let you "nickname" an account.

Name that account... ."The .ring (name) deserves"

Deposit a decent chunk in there.  

Then... ."I'm sure you would agree this is an important step.  It's important to me to get this right."

Then... .press on with things.

Next month... .put some more in it.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

  I really don't think it would be a good idea to buy that ring right now.

Please stick with your judgment.  You are not saying no... .that is very different than "right now".

Also understand this is bigger than the ring.  You get to decide for you.  She gets to decide for her.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

So the past 36 hours have been good in that I was able to catch up on most outstanding bills, while ignoring the credit card debt, and now I have a week or so breathing room.

On Monday I'm getting some additional cash and right now, the expectation is that I'm going to put most of it aside toward the ring. I reluctantly agreed but this is more of the same bad behavior on my part. Putting this money anywhere but toward the mortgage and a few remaining bills will leave me scrambling and probably failing to make the July 1st payment.

I keep wishing uBPDw would get this, but I know she can't.

So sometime this weekend, I have to somehow convey to her that the money she hoped would all go to the ring is really going to go to the mortgage. She'll tell me that I can't make unilateral decisions with our money, and that I'm going back on my promises, and that she was right to doubt me, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Some of it will be true - I did promise her something and now I'm taking it away. But I also promised her I'd protect our house and our family. She'll tell me I only want to destroy the family and destroy our marriage by not committing to getting her a new engagement ring. This will be false.

I don't know how I'll sort through the true bits and the false bits. I don't know how exactly I'll respond, although I know the end state is that the mortgage will be paid and the ring will not be funded yet. I am completely alone on this - no one will be in the room with me while this is going on. I will try and hold on to the years and years of therapeutic and supportive advice I've gotten and imagine that others are cheering me on, holding my hand, and that I won't really be alone, even if this whole scene ends in coldness and separation from uBPDw.

So here I go. Wish me luck.

[formflier]

Hey... sit the money aside for the ring in a separate account.  When it comes time to make the mortgage, see where the money is that you need and make the payment.

Or... .ask her.  Or "inform her".

You get to have it both ways... you are setting money aside, and then when reality comes, you both are in the same reality.  Any money left over rolls forward in the right account.

The critical thing is that you do not actually spend the money on a ring, until it's truly available.

This let's her see and experience reality.  Let her deal with it... .no rescuing

FF   

[GaGrl]

It sounds as if you have reached a point where new according u nth are not possibly blue, unless an existing institution allows you to open an ancillary account.  Most financial institutions will run a credit check before opening a new account. Check into this.

My stepdaughter is in your situation. She is considering opening an account separate from her SO due to his mismanagement of joint funds. His alcohol and weed expenditure each month far exceeds his contribution to the joint account.

My take on this is that you have commitments to multiple entities that, when fulfilled, allow you to hold your head high. Can you rank those commitments?

[BeagleGirl]

I will try and hold on to the years and years of therapeutic and supportive advice I've gotten and imagine that others are cheering me on, holding my hand, and that I won't really be alone, even if this whole scene ends in coldness and separation from uBPDw.

So here I go. Wish me luck.

We ARE here with you, holding your hand and wishing you luck. The "luck" component only comes in play with BPDw's response. Your part is all skill, no luck required.

One question-How do you feel about paying the mortgage first, then telling BPDw?  It may seem underhanded, but I look at it as protection from the (remote) possibility that you will return to the old pattern of giving in. You are choosing to do two right things, pay the mortgage and be honest with BPDw about the ring not being prioritized over mortgage and debt payments. The order in which you do them seems a bit less important than doing them both.

A comment on the "unilateral decisions" idea-What you are doing may feel "unilateral" to BPDw, but I believe you said she has agreed with your financial priorization when stated in general terms. It's only when there is a specific "low priority" item in question that she rescinds that agreement. She may never understand that, and I don't suggest trying to explain (JADE) it to her, but hold on to that knowledge for your own sanity. I'm also thinking that "unilateral" decisions for the common good are better than multilateral decisions that benefit one at the expense of others. If you were making a decision to spend the money on a new watch for yourself rather than a ring for her THAT would be more inline with my definition of a unilateral decision.

Wishing you strength and clarity.
BG

*Edited to say that I am TOTALLY picturing Spock's unilateral decision to sacrifice himself to save the crew of the Enterprise in Star Trek II. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
Live long and prosper.
BG

[DaddyBear77]

I am TOTALLY picturing Spock's unilateral decision to sacrifice himself to save the crew of the Enterprise in Star Trek II. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
Live long and prosper.

Wow you knew exactly what to say! Not to discount the hundreds of other incredibly helpful posts or anything, but a Star Trek quote was all I needed

Seriously, though, I've thought about just paying it and I may still do that. I haven't figured out exactly what I'm going to say and do but I know that the consequences are foreclosure. I gotta stop ignoring the serious stuff and just look this BPD / NPD in the face and say "NO!"

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm... .boundary enforcement... .

"I love you too much to lose the house we live in to foreclosure, so I paid the mortgage, and there isn't money left for the ring this month."

If she doesn't get it, perhaps add: "Would you rather have a new ring while you, I, and D3 live out of our car(s)?"

And then refuse to participate in  any more discussion about the topic.

[DaddyBear77]

This morning I woke up and simply said "I can't give you any money toward the ring today. I need that money to pay for our mortgage."

She asked me what changed, because she thought I told her it would be ok. I said, "I am not going to put our house in jeopardy, and I'm going to make sure there's enough money for all the bills."

She said, "You just don't ever want to get me that ring! You're always going to come up with some excuse to NOT get me the ring because you just don't want me to have it."

I repeated: "I am not going to give you money today toward it. I didn't say I wasn't going to get it. I am simply saying I have other priorities."

She continued "... .they're always PLAUSIBLE excuses, you make sure of that. But if you wanted to get me the ring, you just would."

She started screaming, and of course this woke up D3. She ran into the bathroom, I went into D3's room. I picked her up. I held her. She held me back. We started our morning routine and a few minutes later while D3 and I were in the bathroom, wife comes in and says "leave us alone." D3 screams "NO! DADDY DON'T GO!" So I say to wife "I can't leave right now. We're in the middle of things. Can you come back in a few minutes?" Wife reaches down and grabs D3. D3 turns into a noodle, does NOT want to be picked up. Wife struggles some more. Eventually gets D3 in her arms and wife looks at me and says "leave now!" while D3 is holding out her arms saying ":)ON'T GO!" I see the flailing and struggling as a real risk to safety - it's a bathroom. There is hard time, counter tops, toilets, enclosed space. So, I leave. Wife slams door. Both D3 and wife cry for 3 or 4 minutes. Eventually things calm down.

This is the kind of drama I've been trying to avoid for almost 4 years now. But this time, I didn't let it stop me from saving the house. The mortgage is being paid.

But HOLY SH!# what a morning.

[GaGrl]

Aaaannnnddddd... .this is an extinction burst.

[flourdust]

You did great.

You told her the truth.

She had a brief tantrum.

You did not give in to the tantrum.

The tantrum ended.

Your mortgage gets paid.

[DaddyBear77]

Thanks Gagrl and flourdust

The situation isn't over yet. The tantrum was only just the beginning.

What will happen now is that she'll come after me with a flurry of emotional pleas followed by anger and rage then back to tearful emotions. She'll tell me I don't really love her, and other things carefully crafted to push through any boundary I might have. It's not simple, obvious stuff, like, "You won't by the ring so therefore you hate me." It's much more complex, nuanced, subconsciously crafted messaging designed specifically to get me to break me down.

This will go on for hours or days. The usual path is that I'll stick around, expose myself to the messaging, and eventually it'll wear me down.

This time, I'm desperate to try ANYTHING else. Something new. Novel. Different. But most importantly, effective at getting the bills paid and ME out of the depths of depression and anxiety.

[flourdust]

Different strategies, same tantrum. D3 probably has a lot of ways to try to wear you down to get ice cream. Do you always give in? You can be the grown-up here. She won't like it, and she'll be manipulative and hurtful. But you have to do the grown-up thing. No dessert (ring) before dinner (mortgage).

[formflier]

First of all... .good job!  You have turned the corner and are going down a different road.  She will try to turn you around.  She will try different "tactics"... .don't fall for them... .keep your "strategy" big picture... stay on the same road.

Stay away from "explaining" your decision.  If there is an account where you can show "progress"... that will help. 

Turn the tables... .let her explain it to you... .with facts and figures. 

"Babe... .you are important to me, I was able to set aside xx that you can see in our account.  I'm interested in your thoughts on where can can find more "in the budget".

Keep coming back to that phrase... "in the budget".  Ask her to show you... .not "tell" you...

Remember STOP

Sorry you feel that way.

That's your opinion

Ohh

Perhaps you are right.

I don't like the last one... .but it's a way to respond to silliness.


Last:  The child thing concerns me.  Do you have a recorder app on your phone?  Is your phone private?

Adults "grabbing" or "taking" a child like that is no good. 

What are your thoughts on what to do next time?  There will be a next time.

Good job changing direction.   

FF

[GaGrl]

Could your boundary be around not listening or discussing anything related to spending "outside the budget"?   The thing is, you and only you will know when she is weaseling her way into that discussion, so you and only you would have to walk away as soon as she goes there.

[flourdust]

"Babe... .you are important to me, I was able to set aside xx that you can see in our account.  I'm interested in your thoughts on where can can find more "in the budget"

My understanding is that their family finances are in such dire straits that there is no money to layaway for luxuries. It's questionable if they can be saved from bankruptcy.

[DaddyBear77]

My understanding is that their family finances are in such dire straits that there is no money to layaway for luxuries. It's questionable if they can be saved from bankruptcy.

You are correct flourdust. As I type this, I am still not sure we'll be able to afford our mortgage.

This current cycle has been repeated many many times, with most cycles lasting about 12 to 18 months. There's a demand - something that cannot be lived without. Then, I resist - too much debt, other priorities. She applies pressure - you are being unfair, she says, I've waited years and years for you to show me how much I mean to you. If you really wanted to do this, you would make it happen. She cries, starts to ignore D3, ignores herself, doesn't eat, depressed, it gets worse and worse. Eventually, I give in - you're right, I CAN make this happen. In the past, this has always meant more debt. Another loan, borrow from my parents, borrow from her mother. Now, theres no way to get loans, and the loans we DO have aren't being paid. My salary has dropped. She hasn't worked in almost 5 years. All the savings and 401k that has kept us afloat since she quit and helped us through bad years has all been spent.

Here's the thing - I listened to her tonight, again, explain why the original engagement ring I got her is something she can't stand to look at any more. She says she compromised when she asked for that 16 years ago. I feel for her. I can see that this is really genuinely hard. I'm NOT opposed to buying a new one. I think it would be a great thing. But ONLY under better more affordable circumstances. Doing it now taints the new one as much as the old.

Saving up is certainly the way to go. But right now there's SO MUCH to be paid back and replenished in terms of retirement and savings for college etc. I can't see my way clear to build a ring account with any significant cash until our present and futures are secure.

Does that make sense? Am I missing something?

[byfaith]

I'm desperate to try ANYTHING else. Something new. Novel. Different. But most importantly, effective at getting the bills paid and ME out of the depths of depression and anxiety.

Hi DB,
I feel for you in your situation first of all. My T told me that I needed to save myself. I am assuming that this is eating at your physical and mental wellbeing. We have to look out for ourselves.
I hope you can set your boundaries concerning the ring. I had this picture in my mind. There is my uBPDw and there is this endless hole inside of her and I stand there and toss everything I can think of into the hole, it never fills up. It never will.

I wish I had more advice to offer. You are right it is not easy. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to an abusive person. It has taken every fiber of my being or at least it seems like it. Hang in there. 

BF

 

[Notwendy]

IMHO, material things don't fill that hole, for someone with BPD or anyone else.

Material things do matter. We need homes, food, clothing, cars- and other things for our daily lives. I just spent a fair amount of money getting new sheets, mattress, for one of the beds in the home. Now, we have a nice comfy bed and sleeping on it is wonderful- but it doesn't meet emotional needs in the long run. I like the ring I reset my engagement diamond in- after many years, and it is pretty- but it doesn't make the relationship more or less emotionally gratifying. There is nothing wrong with enjoying material things- if you can afford them.


We live in an area with people of mixed incomes. There are large lovely homes in places, modest apartments in others. The local high school might have BMW's and small economy cars in the parking lots. I like the outdoors so on a weekend, I like the park. Often I have observed many of the more modest income families bringing a picnic lunch and hanging out all day at the park together. The local hot spot high end restaurants are also full on weekends. Is one better than the other? Is one family happier than the other? I could not tell.

It is said " who is happy- he who is content with his lot". If I were honest, I would say I am happier with a new mattress than an uncomfortable one- so I am glad we have the means to get a new one. But emotionally happy? That is different.

Something to consider- is the need of your wife to have that ring that drives you or your need to give it to her? Does this fulfill either of your emotional needs? One way to determine this is- you have done this kind of thing before- how did that work for you? It may have been a drop in the bucket, but it didn't fulfill her need.

A person who is happy eating home made sandwiches in the park will be just as happy at the best restaurant in town. A person who is unhappy probably won't be happy with either.

[BeagleGirl]

Does that make sense? Am I missing something?

DaddyBear,

There is one thing that I think you are missing in your most recent post.  :)3 and the way BPDw pulled her into the drama and used her.  I'll get to that in a moment.

First, I want to say how proud I am to see you "walking a different road", as FF said.  It's inspiring, especially because I feel a bit "stalled out" at the moment.

You did an excellent job staying firm, offering empathy, and demonstrating that your convictions can withstand extreme pressure.  Your wife may not admit it, but I feel that's exactly the kind of man that most women WANT their husbands to be.  Heck, that's "close friend" criteria for me.  {We'll politely ignore the fact that BG's BPDh doesn't currently meet the criteria she just stated was her "close friend" minimum and move on}.

I don't know if your wife responds well to plans.  If she does, FF's suggestion to present the plan to her and ask for her feedback is great.  It would TOTALLY work for me, but I suspect that DB's wife is more of what Dave Ramsey calls a "free spirit".  My BPDh is one.  Budgeting has always been a challenge because he does not find the same comfort/joy I do in the numbers all working out (even if the debt pay off date is could be a "Star Date" given on the original Star Trek series -oops my nerd is showing again-I find a working out a plan tremendously rewarding).  If DB's wife is not a "plan person", maybe the goal is to get her to understand that you have a plan.  You are an excellent planner.  That's your strength.  You are happy to explain the plan to her, and would welcome feedback, but unless she can find money you are not aware of, you would rather use HER strength.  She is creative.  She thinks outside the box.  Can she help you find an "outside the box" way to get her the ring she wants without putting the family (not your plan, focus on THE FAMILY) at risk?  Are there items that can be sold/exchanged?  Is there anything that she would enjoy doing that could be leveraged to help free up some of THE FAMILY finances so that the ring could be purchased sooner?

Can you expand a bit on what she means when she says she "compromised" on the previous engagement ring?

Okay.  Now to tackle the "missing" component.  As important as the ring boundary is (and I think you've made great progress there), I think another boundary needs to be set ASAP.  :)3 is NOT to be subjected to emotional turmoil.  The parent who is in a highly emotional state (raised voice, inability to take a break from an emotionally loaded subject, crying, obvious distress) needs to be the one to step away from D3.  If that parent is not willing/able to take that step away, the calmer parent will take D3 to a calmer place to give the emotionally distressed parent some time to calm down.  

If the scenario you described were to start to repeat itself, at the point where D3 wakes up you could express to BPDw that "our focus needs to shift to D3 now.  We can continue this conversation later."  

If BPDw doesn't let it go: ":)3 needs a calm environment while we go through her morning routine.  I can handle it while you go in the other room and refocus on joining our morning routine without this tension or wait for me to be free to continue our discussion."

If BPDw STILL doesn't let it go/leave the room:  "I can see that you need the space to work through this, but D3 still needs a calmer environment.  I will be taking her to x location.  Please text me when you are ready to focus on her or continue our discussion in a calmer manner."

I would have a travel bag with clothes for D3 in the trunk at all times.  If you need to get her ready for preschool, you can drive to McDonald's and have a fun "pajama breakfast" then get her dressed and ready either there or at the daycare if BPDw is not able to calm down sufficiently for you to go back home and get her ready.

Does that sound like it would work?  Are there complications that you are pretty sure BPDw would throw in the mix that would make that boundary and those actions difficult?

[flourdust]

Here's the thing - I listened to her tonight, again, explain why the original engagement ring I got her is something she can't stand to look at any more. She says she compromised when she asked for that 16 years ago. I feel for her. I can see that this is really genuinely hard. I'm NOT opposed to buying a new one. I think it would be a great thing. But ONLY under better more affordable circumstances. Doing it now taints the new one as much as the old.

Why do you feel for her? Why do you see this is "genuinely hard" for her? Why do you think buying the ring would be a great thing?

Let me flip this for you: Why doesn't SHE feel for you and the family with your finances in such dire straits that you may end up with your house foreclosed on? Why is it "genuinely hard" for her to have a ring she doesn't like instead of a roof over her and her kid's head? Why does she think it would be a "great thing" to buy a ring and not a "great thing" to afford the mortgage and get your family out of horrific debt?

She has incredibly selfish messed-up priorities. Your empathy for her is validating the invalid.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey DB, My BPDxW was often looking to the next big thing -- a car, a house, a vacation -- to fill the emptiness inside herself.  I used to say that, no matter what I did, it was "never enough," which was an accurate description of what I came to see as an emotional black hole that could never be filled for long.  I guess what I'm saying is that your W's need for the ring may be a symptom of a larger issue: the state of your marriage to a pwBPD.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

What you are missing is the gap between your wife's feelings and what she says about you.

She really does feel unwanted, unloved, unappreciated, that she's not a priority, that she waited too long for this ring already, etc., etc., etc.

That said, her conclusions based on her very real feelings are not real. She's accusing you of not caring, etc., etc., etc.

That isn't the case. You actually understand the financial situation your household is in, from a logical, accountant's point of view. That doesn't match her feelings, and she blames you.

Bluntly, you have two choices: Either drive yourself further into financial ruin, or accept that she will blame you for what you aren't buying for her, and make up all kinds of accusations against you.

And yes, this is an extinction burst. The WORST thing you can do is give in now to one. That would be teaching her that turning up the volume on the verbal/emotional abuse of you works perfectly to get you to do what she wants. Trust me, that is a lesson you've reinforced too much already!

[formflier]

Your empathy for her is validating the invalid.

For future "listening"... .listen for a minute or two, then set a time later... next day... whenver, that you can devote your attention to this.

Be friendly, empathetic, interested... .and NOT able to do this right now.

The big picture is to stop "reacting" to her reality and let her deal with it.

She will deal badly with with and will keep trying to "hand this" to you to "handle".

You are on the right path... .

Hang in there.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

Does that sound like it would work?  Are there complications that you are pretty sure BPDw would throw in the mix that would make that boundary and those actions difficult?

Ok, lots of good stuff, but let me focus on this very important, forgotten topic - D3

Your plan sounds wonderful, BeagleGirl. I really mean that. But there are some serious complications that make this even more dangerous to implement than just leaving the room when uBPDw comes in to "take over" (which breaks my heart because I know how much D3 will suffer in the long run from such exposure, but there are far worse scenarios, which I'm about to describe)

Many mornings start out exactly as you describe. D3 needs attention. uBPDw already has my attention and is asking for more. uBPDw ignores, and in fact is annoyed and upset, that D3 is requiring attention. I say "We need to stop this conversation now and take care of D3." uBPDw resists.

Here's where the ugly part happens. I go through the process of "Why don't you take a break and I'll go handle her", etc, but every step she says "NO! I NEED YOU NOW! SHE CAN WAIT A MINUTE!" If uBPDw screams this, as she often does, this upsets D3 even more. Even if uBPDw doesn't scream, D3 is getting more and more agitated. Finally, I say, "I need to go now and take care of D3."

Ok, so far so good.

At this point, uBPDw leaps out of bed and comes running behind me to grab D3 out of my arms (the situation we had yesterday). Lets say I physically stand between uBPDw and D3: *BUZZER SOUND* Game lost - physical "abuse" - not going there. Lets say I've somehow managed to grab D3 in time and headed for the door, which I've done. uBPDw SCREAMS at me "YOU CAN'T DO THAT! THIS IS KIDNAPPING! I'M CALLING THE POLICE!" - *BUZZER SOUND* Do I really want to test her? Do I want to call her bluff? Do I want to take the chance of being followed by a police car after being accused of kidnapping my own daughter? Holy SH*#!

So, on many previous threads I've brought this up and it's somewhat of a sidetrack to this discussion, but the point at which it all intersects is that THIS is another VERY POWERFUL tool that uBPDw has to try and control my behavior.

I just made an appointment with a T I had seen when D3 was first born. She shares an office with a former T that my uBPDw used to see. Of all the Ts I've seen, she is the one who really gets the whole picture I think. I've also been considering making an appointment with uBPDw's old therapist, not to discuss uBPDw, but to discuss D3. uBPDw's old T is also a certified child advocate for the state, and I can still remember one time where uBPDw's old T took me aside and said "You have to be there for D3 - if you're worried that uBPDw will carry through on threats to take D3 away from you, trust me. Don't worry about that. I will step in if I have to"

So, yeah, that's what's what with D3.

BTW, just came back from soothing D3 out of a 30 minute tantrum with MIL, where D3 stomped around, screamed, cried, yelled, all the things that she sees uBPDw do. She hugged me, I held her, she finally calmed down, and I realized, all the stuff I was afraid would happen? It's happening.

[flourdust]

I have also been in a similar situation with my exBPDw and a young daughter.

Is your BPDw a physical threat to D3?

If she is, there is a different set of rules you have to follow.

If she is not a threat -- then you need to break out of the pattern of letting your wife hold you "hostage" with D3. I think you are placing a little too much weight on what your T said. Yes, you need to be there for D3 -- as in, participating in her upbringing. Not there for her every second to guard her.

If there is no physical threat, then if BPDw snatches up D3, then BPDw is now responsible for taking care of her needs. And let her succeed or fail on her own.

[Notwendy]

Your D3 emotionally is a good example of what your wife is emotionally. They are both about 3. D3's behavior- tantruming- isn't because she sees your wife doing it. It is what 3 year olds do.

3 year olds don't have the skills to manage their emotions yet. They feel ovewhelmed and then have a giant tantrum. Our job as adults is to be the adults here- to see that this is a normal behavior for a 3 year old- and model to them how to better manage bad feelings. We help them with things like time out- as it teaches them to self soothe. If a 3 year old is upset, sad, then a big hug from a loving parent is exactly what they need. Trying to control the raging tantrum of a 3 year old is about as effective as trying to control a raging person with BPD. Time out- or you walking away, ignoring the tantrum- letting the child learn to self soothe is also the thing to to with a raging, needy, pwBPD.  After the toddler ( pwBPD) calms down is the time for hugs and kisses.

Probably the difference between a 3 year old and an adult BPD meltdown is that it is normal for the 3 year old and the 3 year old won't be 3 forever.

What would happen if you had another 3 year old (DD3) and said to your D3 " I love both of you ".  Then D3 needs you but you say ":)3, I need take care of DD3 now, you will have to wait". I am pretty sure you know what will happen next. D3 is already upset and needs you, and you tell her to wait while you attend to DD3. You are in for a tantrum- because that is what 3 year olds do. This may be how your wife sees this emotionally.

[Grey Kitty]

a few thoughts:

1. Talk to the therapist about this. (as you are doing)

2. Post on the legal board / talk to lawyers / talk to domestic violence groups / talk to police (about a hypothetical situation)... ./ keep looking for SOMEBODY who can help you with this, because here's the situation as I see it: BPDw uses EMOTIONAL ABUSE OF D3 as a tool to control you.

It is clearly having an impact on D3 already.

And what is worst is that she knows it works, and you know it works. She's not at all likely to choose to stop doing this and "be a good parent" instead.

You may not be able to break this pattern without involving law enforcement of some kind... .but don't do that without a game plan first.

3. Flourdust's suggestion has some real potential--since you can't/won't stop her from snatching up D3 and upsetting D3, leave the house when she does it, leaving her to deal with the mess she is creating.

Not sure it is the best thing for D3, but the other choices are pretty bad too.

[DaddyBear77]

If there is no physical threat, then if BPDw snatches up D3, then BPDw is now responsible for taking care of her needs. And let her succeed or fail on her own.

No. There is no physical threat. I agree completely with what you're saying. The next time this pattern repeats, I will make reasonable attempts as BeagleGirl described, and if uBPDw won't go to D3 with me, I will still go myself. This will likely lead to uBPDw following after me to snatch up D3, at which point I will disengage and leave the room or house as needed.

Why do you feel for her? Why do you see this is "genuinely hard" for her? Why do you think buying the ring would be a great thing?

Another great question. It's "genuinely hard" for her because of her messed up belief system. The more time I spend listening to her, the more I start to believe it. It becomes MY messed up belief system. Sorry about that.


Here's a great example of what's going on currently - the following is a text message uBPDw JUST sent me:

I'm tired of trying to force you to give me an engagement ring and the commitment that goes with it: it will always be something you made sure I knew you didn't *want* to give.

If you're still "on the fence" about doing the right thing, proposing, meaning it, making the original commitment into something real, if you're still "on the fence", there's nothing I can do but walk away, emotionally if not physically. Love is not a one-person job.

It hurts. A lot.

I feel a lot of FOG after reading this. I feel guilty and very defensive. It drags up a LOT of memories.

When we first got engaged, we were in our early 20s. I couldn't afford a ring that cost as much as she wanted, so we had a custom ring made, on the spot, in the best diamond district there is, using the best stones we could find, on a budget I could afford. Maybe I should have waited to propose to her until I could save more? We had just taken two trips to Europe over the past year, all on credit cards. Rent was expensive. We both had student loans. I'm not sure I could have done it, but maybe I'm just letting myself off the hook too easily?

She's also referring to my "proposal" as something I didn't mean. I had picked our trip to Paris to propose, but I wasn't sure when we would be able to afford a wedding, or how long our engagement would / should last, and so I wasn't really pushing hard to set a date. She continues to see this as me "dragging my feet" or having second thoughts or even as me not being serious about the proposal in the first place. She also often applies this to our vows and our wedding day.

There's a lot of detail to this story which I'll leave out for now. And trying to share these stories with uBPDw is useless and inflammatory JADEing. She says "You're lying! You're making things up to make yourself look better!" I just wish we could see these from even a remotely similar perspective. I understand that I'm feeling a little sorry for myself. I understand that everyone sees things from a different perspective, and that I could have done things differently and I brought on a lot of the stress myself. But still, to say flat out that I don't care and that I didn't mean my proposal or my vows? MAN that hurts.


Anyway, these quotes (and many others) from all of you immediately come to mind:

And yes, this is an extinction burst. The WORST thing you can do is give in now to one. That would be teaching her that turning up the volume on the verbal/emotional abuse of you works perfectly to get you to do what she wants. Trust me, that is a lesson you've reinforced too much already!

Be friendly, empathetic, interested... .and NOT able to do this right now.

I really believe you guys and I think this is a great way (the ONLY way) to go about it. I'm just not sure how to process my own feelings? And is there anything else to be said to uBPDw other than using SET?

[Grey Kitty]

The most validating thing you can say to something like this... .

If you're still "on the fence" about doing the right thing, proposing, meaning it, making the original commitment into something real, if you're still "on the fence", there's nothing I can do but walk away, emotionally if not physically. Love is not a one-person job.

Is something along the lines of:

"I love you. I cannot buy you the ring you want this month. If you need to walk away, that is your choice. I really don't want you to go, but I can't and won't make you stay if you choose to leave."

Putting the choice she has back in her lap is actually more validating than trying to control her actions by promising to do what she wants, especially when you know you can't live up to it.

Have you ever tried anything like this with her before?

[DaddyBear77]

"I love you. I cannot buy you the ring you want this month. If you need to walk away, that is your choice. I really don't want you to go, but I can't and won't make you stay if you choose to leave."

uBPDw: "You're FORCING me to leave! It's not what I would chose, but what other choice do I have? I can't stay with someone who thinks so little of me that they wouldn't even buy me a real engagement ring. I may seem dumb to you, but I'm not an idiot. I know I'm worth a he!# of a lot more than you seem to think I'm worth. PLEASE give me another option here! Don't degrade me even further by making me beg for you to do the right thing."

[Grey Kitty]

uBPDw: "You're FORCING me to leave! It's not what I would chose, but what other choice do I have? I can't stay with someone who thinks so little of me that they wouldn't even buy me a real engagement ring. I may seem dumb to you, but I'm not an idiot. I know I'm worth a he!# of a lot more than you seem to think I'm worth. PLEASE give me another option here! Don't degrade me even further by making me beg for you to do the right thing."

There's nothing valid in that to validate. Time to end the conversation when she says something like that.

She has the choice to stay with you while you won't buy her the ring.
She has the choice to leave you because you won't buy her the ring.

You aren't forcing her to do anything.

She may be worth it, but the money to spend on her isn't there and isn't available to you. As they say, you can't get blood from a stone.

And if she decides to beg you for it further, you aren't "making her" "degrade herself" that way. Again, the choice is hers.


BTW, I completely believe that she would say these things... .I just don't see anything valid in it that is worth responding to.

[BeagleGirl]

I'm just not sure how to process my own feelings? And is there anything else to be said to uBPDw other than using SET?

DaddyBear,
Let's start with processing your own feelings.  Not that I have a whole lot of advice because I spent 2 hours talking to my BPDh and WOMAN am I in the F.O.G. right now.  Actually, I feel more like I'm sitting in a hot tub of anger that is blanketed in F.O.G.  So please pardon me if this post is a bit stream of consciousness because I'm trying to figure out how to process my feelings as well.

I think that the first step is acknowledging that you have feelings and what they are.  At least that's key for me, because my "safety" mode is to move to reason and try to work things out like it's some giant puzzle.  And it's so giant that if I get overwhelmed with one corner, there are plenty other sections to tackle.  Okay.  So you have feelings.  What are they.  Name them.  Hang out with them and get to know them a bit.  Where did they come from?  How do you want to handle them?  How do you wish you wanted to handle them? 

Find someone to validate the feelings you are having.  I can help you here.  I have a friend that I will occasionally text "the latest drama" to and I can usually count on the response being "What the Eff?"  So that's what I have to say about your wife's text.  WHAT THE EFF?  If you weren't serious about your proposal, why did you follow through and get married?  If you weren't serious about your vows, why are you still there putting a roof over her head and putting up with her constant whining and nagging?  And I'm pretty sure that your vows did not include the words "And I will buy you whatever you want, whenever you want it, plucking the money off of the secret money tree that I have growing in a location to be disclosed upon our 50th wedding anniversary just in case I die before you and you need to tell your next husband where to find the money to keep providing for your every desire."  And I'm pretty sure that she may have said something about loving you "For richer or for poorer".  So if you didn't mean your vows, you're in good company.  And what is this "love is not a one person job" nonsense?  Does she really think that what she is doing is loving?  If what she is doing is loving, then you definitely aren't loving, because you are not subjecting her to the nagging and personal attacks and manipulation that she's subjecting you to.

Okay.  I'll hold back some vitriol for later, just in case you run out of indignation over what your wife is doing to you and D3. 

Now start to imagine how you might respond (not react-I see response as an intentional behavior, while I define reaction as more "knee jerk" to the situations that are bringing up these feelings.  You are already pretty good at this, but I think you sometimes take it to the point where you have to face a fear and sound the buzzer and decide to not travel that road.  Please know that I am struggling with that exact thing (it's why I still haven't talked to my dad).

I'm going to hazard a guess that you may not need additional tools for dealing with BPDw as much as you need tools for dealing with your own fears.  In fact, you may want to try some SET on yourself.  Want to give it a try?  Maybe to address your fears around the "Buzzer points" in the scenarios where BPDw is using D3 to control your behavior?


I think I might try some SET on myself after a good night's sleep.   

BeagleGirl

[Lucky Jim]

Hey DB77, I would encourage you to stay firm in your resolve.  The goal, I suggest, is to hold your position, without retreating or attacking.  In the past, I suspect you retreated when she attacked.  Now I'm suggesting something different, that you remain steadfast in your position that you can't afford the ring.  Period.  It's non-negotiable.  Got it?  You've come a long way and will be OK no matter what the outcome.

LuckyJim

[DaddyBear77]

Just a quick update on where I am with this... .

I paid most of the mortgage payment but still gave her what amounted to about 2% of the money toward a ring. I could have really used that money to pay for lots of other overdue items, like the car payment, the equity loan, or even more of the mortgage payment. But like everything else, it was a compromise. And I'm looking back and thinking holy crap, how screwed would we be if I had given her the WHOLE mortgage payment?

I also spoke to a former therapist who basically said "well, you'd better start looking at downsizing. You probably won't stop until they foreclose so you'll need to put your family somewhere." Tough love. Still processing it.

And finally, I backed off the hard "no" but wish I hadn't.

Time to regroup my thoughts on this. Just thought I'd share a quick update.

[formflier]

What does "gave her" mean?

Is it in an account where you can both see it?

Did you give her cash?


Just to be clear, my idea of the "ring account" is so that you can both see progress each month and you both can see "reality".

You don't need to explain reality to her... .she can see it... .that's hers to deal with.

FF

[GaGrl]

What emotions are you having around what you did?

[formflier]

How did paying "most" of the mortgage payment help?

Did you still get a late fee?  Is the account still going to go a month late?

FF

[BeagleGirl]

DaddyBear,
Not exactly what you were hoping you could do, but still a far cry from what you believed you were capable of just a week ago.  Take time to celebrate that.   

At 2%/month it will take about 4 years for you to purchase the ring she wants.  I doubt that is an acceptable pace for her.  I'm horrible with amortization numbers, but I suspect that putting that 2% on debt could get you to a much better place in 4 years.  I'm a big fan of the Dave Ramsey "debt snowball" approach and was amazed at how quickly that pay-off snowball grew.  If you haven't heard of "debt snowball" and want details, let me know.

I think your therapist's "tough love" is something you should spend some time dwelling on.  It's a hard truth, but it is truth.  And maybe it's not just a "threat" of what is to come, but a hint at how you can find another way out of your situation.

What would "downsizing" look like?  Have you seriously looked at this, or stopped when you think about how much BPDw would flip out?  As your therapist said, downsizing may be something that is imposed on you if you don't face it on your own.  Better to have some choice (even if it's hard choices) in the matter by doing it yourself before creditors do it for you.

If you want tips on downsizing, let me know.  I've had to do it in years past and am looking at it as something that may be necessary with the separation.

[DaddyBear77]

FF- I gave her cash. Also, the mortgage company accepts partial payment and we are avoiding late fees by meeting the terms of the repayment plan. The thing it helps most is that it's no longer sitting in our account and no longer available to us.

Gagrl - I feel a sense of temporary relief, but a continued sense of dread and impending doom. The clock is ticking. All I did was buy another few minutes.

BG - DBwife wants the ring immediately. If not immediately then tomorrow would be acceptable I guess.

Downsizing is an interesting concept. It's obviously not going to be something that DBwife would ever go along with. I mean, she wants a 2 karat diamond ring, and I want at least a few bucks left in the account after all the bills are paid. We're so far apart on this that there's absolutely no hope of a joint agreement. That's also the truth.

Would I be willing to downsize? You bet your rear end I would! I'll call for the dumpster this afternoon, clear out 80% of the crap, and move my family to a 2 bedroom. I'll pay every bill every month, like I did for 16 years straight (perfect credit report until late 2015). Then, I'll set up a solid plan to pay back creditors. Then I'll pay for the best schooling, all the extra curriculars, summer camp, and whatever else D3 would need. Then, I'll take what's left and start saving for a new ring or whatever else we deem a family priority.

It's an impossible dream for as long as DBwife gets to have a say.

Still thinking about what T said. I'll post more about that later.

Edit: to clarify on the "perfect credit report" - for 15 years, I had at least one and usually 5 or more credit cards, mortgage, and a car payment. In 15 years, I never had a single late payment on my report. I was overextended and that lowered my rating significantly, but to make literally thousands of payments on time says a lot about my ability to make things work I think. It also emphasizes the tipping point a year or two ago.

[formflier]

FF- I gave her cash. Also, the mortgage company accepts partial payment and we are avoiding late fees by meeting the terms of the repayment plan. The thing it helps most is that it's no longer sitting in our account and no longer available to us.
 

And what has she done with it?  

I'm baffled by this choice, can you elaborate on your thinking?

When given cash, does she have a history of being a good saver, when saving for a particular goal?

FF

[DaddyBear77]

And what has she done with it?  

I'm baffled by this choice, can you elaborate on your thinking?

She has put it "under the mattress" so to speak.

It is not locked away in any account or encumbered in any way other than my wife's determination to chose a ring vs, say, a car payment or a home equity loan payment. I am putting the choice in her hands. What better way to learn, except that's stupid because I just said she will never go along with a better choice.

But can you please elaborate as to why you're baffled?

[formflier]

But can you please elaborate as to why you're baffled?

How can you check on the balance, other than trusting your wife to give you the accurate accounting?

Have you ever done this before, let your wife hold cash and build it up (without spending it on other things), and then get what the funds were set aside for?

So... .I just never considered handing her a wad of cash.  If there is history here and this has reliably worked in the past, then it makes sense to me.  Go with what works.

If this is something new... .well... .from what I have seen of her personality and money management, is there a chance she will let this cash survive for 50 months (assuming 2% per month) and get a ring.

In the meantime, is she now happy with you?

I hope this works... .lots of questions.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

How can you check on the balance, other than trusting your wife to give you the accurate accounting?

I have no trouble trusting my wife with the cash - this is an area we have very few problems - I can trust her to tell me what happens with the money, and if she doesn't want me to know she'll tell me she doesn't want me to know. In this way, she's modeling much better behavior to me than I do to her. Besides, if she spends the money, she doesn't get a ring. The ring is REALLY important to her.

Have you ever done this before, let your wife hold cash and build it up

Yes.

is there a chance she will let this cash survive for 50 months (assuming 2% per month) and get a ring.

Yes.

In the meantime, is she now happy with you?

No. Not a bit.

 She's extremely unhappy with me. In fact, I am absolutely certain that even if I miraculously but this ring with no financial impact (e.g., win the lottery), she will never be happy with me.

We have big, big issues. With these threads I've been focusing on one or two really prominent ones, but there are many others.

[formflier]

So... .how has this decision moved the relationship towards a healthier place?  I can see some options, especially given your answers. 

I'm less interested in your answers matching mine and I'm more interested in you thinking through how your actions affect the r/s... .the dynamic between you guys.  And that you are the one making healthy decisions and your wife is reacting to you, vice the other way around.

There is a less important tactical consideration... .how did she seem when you gave her the 2%.  Did you approach her or did she badger you until you handed it over?


FF

[formflier]

 She's extremely unhappy with me. 

Please understand this question was a bit of a setup from me. 

Yes, she "presents" as being unhappy with you... .however we know that most of that is projection and blame shifting.

Are you ready to stop owning your wife's unhappiness?  This is "working" for her... .she hands it to you and you take it, likely as an act of compassion or love.  I'm certain this comes from a good place, it did when I did this kind of thing.

With the knowledge that you have now, is owning her unhappiness compassionate or loving?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

She's extremely unhappy with me. In fact, I am absolutely certain that even if I miraculously but this ring with no financial impact (e.g., win the lottery), she will never be happy with me.

Actually I'd say she's extremely unhappy... .and is blaming you / taking it out on you.

And you are correct--nothing you do will change it significantly. Might put the unhappiness aside for a little while, 'tho you are years away from meeting any of the demands which she claims will make her "happy".

Remember--the unhappiness is inside her. It is her emotional black hole. You can't fill it with diamonds or anything else.

[Lucky Jim]

Right, no matter what you pull off, it's doubtful that she will be happy with you, because she is unhappy with herself.  LJ