Divorce Announcement...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My original plan was to utilize the method in the book 'splitting'... .however, we got into a disagreement a few weeks ago and I said "we should just get divorced".

With the surprise method was out the window, I chose to try collaborating with her.  So last night I sat her down and kindly said that "I want to talk about us getting a divorce."

Her response was to go into hermit mode, drink 3 six packs of 5% malt beverages and smoke a pack of cigarettes.

So this morning she calls me and says "I talked to a realtor today and he's coming by on thursday to evaluate the house, and put it on the market... .oh and by the way... .we are not getting divorced.  You can divorce me, but I am not going along with it."

All I can say to myself is wow... .

Have any of you had a similar experience and / advice on how to handle this?

After thinking about it, my thoughts are to give her a few days to think about it, and approach her one more time, and say something along the lines of 'look... .i want us to both have input on the outcome.  I want to work together with you on this so that we can both heal as rapidly as possible.'

If she responds to that, then fine.  But if not I think that I should retain a lawyer and file independently.

Thoughts?  Considerations?  Other ideas?

[CrossroadsGuyMn]

My original plan was to utilize the method in the book 'splitting'... .however, we got into a disagreement a few weeks ago and I said "we should just get divorced".

With the surprise method was out the window, I chose to try collaborating with her.  So last night I sat her down and kindly said that "I want to talk about us getting a divorce."

Her response was to go into hermit mode, drink 3 six packs of 5% malt beverages and smoke a pack of cigarettes.

So this morning she calls me and says "I talked to a realtor today and he's coming by on thursday to evaluate the house, and put it on the market... .oh and by the way... .we are not getting divorced.  You can divorce me, but I am not going along with it."

All I can say to myself is wow... .

Have any of you had a similar experience and / advice on how to handle this?

After thinking about it, my thoughts are to give her a few days to think about it, and approach her one more time, and say something along the lines of 'look... .i want us to both have input on the outcome.  I want to work together with you on this so that we can both heal as rapidly as possible.'

If she responds to that, then fine.  But if not I think that I should retain a lawyer and file independently.

Thoughts?  Considerations?  Other ideas?

[HopefulDad]

Do you live somewhere where she can contest the divorce?  If not, she has no choice but to go along with it.

Do what you have to do with regards to retaining a lawyer, filing independently, etc.  If you do that, think about closing all joint credit cards and bank accounts and opening your own.  If you live in a community property state, give her half of the closed bank account funds after closing the account.  Tell her she needs to open her own bank and cc accounts.  If you have any open lines of credit (e.g. HELOC), close them to any further drawing on the credit and leave open only to pay them off.

If your name is on the house title, she cannot sell it.  Depending on where you live, a divorce filing may put a restraining order on all assets, preventing both of you from selling the house, cars, investment funds, etc. until the hearing that handles asset division.

[takingandsending]

Hi CrossroadsGuyMn.

That sounds like my wife, but a bit quicker in the retaliation. All this to say, pwBPD act very impulsively, so it is not surprising that your wife would not talk to you and only responded by self medicating her feelings on hearing that you want a divorce and then abruptly turned around and called a realtor and made threatening overtures about the house and divorce to you. Same happened to me but more drawn out. My STBxw refused to engage in any conversation around my request for divorce, I repeatedly made nice guy overtures to talk with her about it, then one evening after a day chock full of fun dysregulation, anger at kids, anger at me: she stated she saw an attorney, I needed to get an attorney, I was going to pay her this much maintenance for this many years, this much child support, she would retain the house, I would get 25% parent time ... .this is how their brains function.

So, you have been in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) pretty heavily for likely most of your marriage. I can sincerely tell you that it does get better once you and your wife are no longer cohabiting. Best to take a deep breath, let it out and know that much of what BPD says is talk. HopefulDad's advice is appropriate. Take those measures as soon as you can manage it. And do talk to a lawyer who is knowledgeable and has trial experience in divorce cases involving BPD spouses. A form filer or hand holder will not help you here.

As much as you want to have meaningful, rational discussion with your wife, as much as you may still hold concerns over what is going to happen to her (been there, done that), you eventually need to learn to take care of yourself first, put the oxygen mask on yourself before trying to help her. Rest assured, she will not be overly concerned about your welfare. I have found that my initial response to various threats and aggression is to want to rush to react. I am learning that it's best to not react but just stick to my guns, keep moving in the direction of resolution, and stay very clear on what I need in the process. This is not my strong suit, but pwBPD are wonderful teachers in that regard.

Hang in there, take the steps you need to initiate this divorce and ask for help here. There are a lot of folks who can really help out.

[CrossroadsGuyMn]

Thank you both for the words of wisdom. 

takingandsending:  my stbxw is and EXTREMELY quick thinker and reactor.  Thus far its been hermit and queen... .but like in your situation, I know the witch is coming.

I have a lawyer selected with experience in high conflict divorces, and my own bank account established with enough in it for the retainer.

I have not closed accounts yet.  I felt like doing that could be interpreted by her as an aggressive move, and trigger an aggressive move on her part which would lead to escalation and this whole thing turning into a war of attrition where everyone is injured beyond repair.

hopefuldad:  In terms of contention, "In Minnesota, you do not need the consent of your spouse to obtain a divorce. You simply need to show that the marriage is irretrievably broken. If your spouse is denying this requirement, be prepared to attend court-ordered mediation or even possibly go to trial."  So I'm not sure how one would show that the marriage is irretrievably broken.

The upside i failed to mention in my original post is that we have no children together.  So that's a big ball of conflict we will not have to address.

Thank you again for your input.

[david]

I had several checks from various people that added up to around $6,000. She put them all in our joint account and endorsed them by forging my name. It was not a good forgery. A few days later, when the checks cleared, she emptied the entire account. The courts did nothing about it.

[HopefulDad]

I have a lawyer selected with experience in high conflict divorces, and my own bank account established with enough in it for the retainer.

I have not closed accounts yet.  I felt like doing that could be interpreted by her as an aggressive move, and trigger an aggressive move on her part which would lead to escalation and this whole thing turning into a war of attrition where everyone is injured beyond repair.

hopefuldad:  In terms of contention, "In Minnesota, you do not need the consent of your spouse to obtain a divorce. You simply need to show that the marriage is irretrievably broken. If your spouse is denying this requirement, be prepared to attend court-ordered mediation or even possibly go to trial."  So I'm not sure how one would show that the marriage is irretrievably broken.

The upside i failed to mention in my original post is that we have no children together.  So that's a big ball of conflict we will not have to address.

If you've made up your mind to divorce, then all of the above will fall into place.  I suggest:

1) Retain a lawyer

2) Discuss with him/her protecting your assets and credit with regards to closing, then opening separate accounts.  You do not want to become another cautionary tale of someone whose accounts got cleaned out or was hit with huge debt as revenge for filing.  You're worried about escalation, so you think if you tread lightly you can fend it off.  Don't bet on it.

3) Discuss with him/her the Minnesota requirement so at least you can think constructively rather than be bewildered.

4) Thank your lucky stars you have no kids.  All of your focus will be financial.  Sure, your STBX may escalate the support and asset division issues, but trust me when I say those are nowhere near as emotionally charged when the escalation is done through the children in the form of a custody fight.  I'm past my custody fight and still working out the financial issues... .so easy by comparison even with escalations here and there.

Good luck.

[ForeverDad]

Your consultations and choice of a lawyer are privileged information and qualify as confidential.  What that means is you don't have to divulge that information nor do you have to feel obligated to be interrogated.  You have a right to privacy.  Instruct your lawyer to be sure not to mail anything whatsoever to your address.  (Yes, that has happened.)  Don't use any accounts (bank, credit card or email) that your spouse may have access to.  Same goes for any paperwork or receipts, keep them elsewhere in places your spouse does not have access to.

I'd like to express a perspective on sharing, such as sharing information.  When you are in a relationship such as marriage, you share information.  It's a team effort to make a marriage work.  If you hold back then it can weaken the trust and positive vibes.

However... .if it is failing (or imploding as happens with many members here) then the perspective on sharing changes.  You have to navigate the difficult journey to post-marriage life.  That means you can't freely share everything anymore.  Why?  There is a real risk that some of your (previously confidential) talk may be used against you or give your spouse an opportunity to sabotage your plans.  This is especially valid when separating from or divorcing a person with BPD (pwBPD).  They are known to overreact, over-emotionalize and even actively sabotage you.  For that reason you need to keep some things confidential until it is appropriate to reveal them.  It might be your plans for the future, your separation strategies, your safe houses, etc.

The point is that you are not required to share literally everything nor submit to interrogations or guilting.  Not even "to be fair".  We Nice Guys and Nice Gals are often too inclined to be overly fair, overly nice, whatever, to our detriment.  Frankly, court will make sure our spouses won't be treated unfairly, so we don't have to worry for them or about them.  They're adults, they're expected to be able to stand on their own two feet.  Instead we need to give priority to ourselves and the minor children, if any.  The stbEx necessarily have to be further down on our priority list lest we nd up sabotaging ourselves.

It is the task of our (hopefully experienced) lawyers to not be emotionally torn (as we are) as to what to do or which strategies to use.  Listen to them.  If you don't agree or think they're being too harsh, ask for them to explain why.  Peer support too is invaluable.  We've been there, done that.  Take advantage of our collective wisdom, over the years we've come to recognize what strategies and approaches usually work and which ones usually don't work.  In addition, we're past the most intensive phases of our emotionally draining choices and decisions, we can post with objective perspectives.

[CrossroadsGuyMn]

I just wanted to update this post with the latest.

My BPDSTBexW decided to check herself into a 28 day addition treatment program.

This is the 3rd time she has done this in the 8 years that we have been married.

While this has been happening, I have been busy.  I leased a townhome, and am 90% moved in.  I have a meeting planned with she and one of her counselors in the program this coming friday 9/15.  In this meeting I intend to tell her of my new living arrangements, and of my intent to file for divorce with or without her cooperation.

While I would prefer doing it collaboratively, I recognize that this is likely not the way she will want to proceed. I have also found an attorney with experience in high conflict divorce.

So for me the end of this chapter of life is near. 

I've experienced an indescribable sense of peace since she left for the program a few weeks ago.   And that is my message of encouragement to the community.  While my situation is unique, in that there are no minor children involved, there is indeed hope.

I can feel myself becoming the man I know that I'm capable of... .and it feels wonderful.

[flourdust]

Good luck to you. It sounds like you've got yourself organized. What can we do to help? The divorce announcement feels like a big step, but it's really only one more step on what can be a very long and challenging road. There are some members here who have been through just about anything you can imagine in divorcing a pwBPD -- lean on them for mentoring!

[GaGrl]

While she might have checked herself into the treatment program to avoid dealing with the divorce, or to work on you through FOG, in actuality it might help you in court with showing that the marriage is irretrievably broken.  You should be able to say that this has happened three times in eight years (with specific dates) and, while you were supportive throughout her treatment, the damage to the marriage means that the relationship is over.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Good work. 

I can only envy your sense of strength that you seem to get by knowing that the divorce part of your life is moving.  I see my long-term marriage as a business deal.  I long for the opportunity to sit down and discuss a corporate restructuring - in which both partners take the most useful assets, and work independently from there.  Meaning an amicable divorce and honorable peace.  I have a realistic, and business mind I guess. 

To a disordered person, "divorce" can sound at one moment a mortal threat, or a complaint, or a call for help, or blatantly ignored, and not heard since it's too shocking.  I'd expect her reactions to be all over the charts.  Nothing really stays in a fixed position in a BPD's mind, I think. 

Be prepared to steer your own ship.  I wouldn't expect any collaboration from your wife.  A lot of your behavior should probably be mostly smile and nod. 

Peace and good fortune to you.

[ForeverDad]

Although children are blessings, you "dodged a bullet" by not having children, it would have made a divorce vastly more complicated with custody and parenting issues.  Still, it will be stressful and more complicated than you hope.  One piece of advice often made is to view divorce like undoing a business merger, that is, remove the emotional blaming and posturing from the mix.

Remember to always, always communicate in ways that present you as a normal and reasonable person.  Some have stated it as ":)o, say, write, express everything as though the judge or evaluator were looking over your shoulder."  In plain English, don't give your ex any ammunition to sabotage you.

If there is risk of alimony post-divorce, generally the length of alimony is no more than half the marriage's length and often much less.  In my case, I had been married over 15 years when we separated, 16 years when I filed.  I had no idea what the ratio would be but two years later my lawyer proposed 2 months for every year or one sixth.  However, that good news was not as good as it sounded.  Rather than 30 months or 32 months they calculated 36 months since her delays for nearly two years had put our married time up to 18 years.

My point is that it may be 8 years married now, longer than a short term marriage, but the calcs may eventually be based on a longer term if she is able to delay the process.