How do you react to the brief moments of insight?

[lpheal]

I generally have been posting on some of the other boards, and I think at least in my head am preparing to move past my marriage.

My uBPDw had a rage against me about two weeks ago in front of D3. D3 started crying, and I had to remove myself from the situation to get wife to just stop. D3 did say to me within the past week that she was "scared when Mommy was crying" which I interpreted to mean her outburst. It made me really happy that D3 felt she could tell me this, but also hated she had to do so.

Last night my wife said ":)3 is going to hate me, I'm afraid she is going to be messed up because of me. She is going to hate me like I hate my mother."

To myself I am thinking I agree 100% with everything you just said. I don't even know how to respond anymore though. It feels like a trap to me now. If I agree I am worried she will quickly pivot to her usual position which is "so you agree there is a problem and you need to change so I don't have to get like that?" "I've been asking for the same thing from you for three years, and I've been very honest with you about it." If I try to minimize or not engage I could understand where she feels like I am not making an effort. I've got one hand on the door handle to get out of this marriage, but I'm wondering if these brief moments of seeming insight are a real opportunity to speak some truth to her. Or is it another attempt to keep me in the FOG?

I then wonder if she has been so clear about what she needs, why do I still not know what it is?

Anyway, I'm curious if anyone else has experienced this and how you handled it.

[AnuDay]

This sounds like manipulation to me.  It does not sound like a moment of insight.  I have seen many of these "moments of insight".  Usually the bad behavior continues, maybe she figures out how to use this "moment of insight" to make you feel bad later.  Be cautious.

[CMJ]

Earlier in the year my uBPD friend said to me that she knows she's hurt people, hurt me, and that she'll end up alone if she carries on behaving this way.

I don't believe it was a manipulation attempt as at the time things were good between us, but I must admit there is a part of me that wonders though. I can't remember exactly how I handled it beyond agreeing that she had hurt me in the past (which prompted no backlash), but that I didn't take her behaviour personally.

Currently split black and it's this one sliver of insight from her that's stopped me from just walking away so far.

[Lalathegreat]

My expwBPD would occasionally do this but it never translated into long term change.

One example sticks out to me because it also pertains to parenting... .he lost it on his son one evening. He put him in his room and then immediately started on me: "you think I'm abusive, you're just sitting there judging me!" (I hadn't said a word, though I suppose my face had to betray my discomfort.) I wasn't going to take that bait so I tried to validate how frustrating it can be when a child is being challenging (his son WAS, not that he deserved the full on BPD treatment but... .), he started screaming "I wasn't frustrated!" And we went around for a bit until he stormed into his room. I let him be for a little bit before going in there. He was lying on his bed and started telling me "I know I'm not always a good parent. I know that I don't know how to do better. I need people I trust, like you, to help me do things differently."

And in that moment he seemed so genuine and concerned that I took the bait. I tried to gently tell him how I felt the discussion could have been handled differently. Immediately he started in on all the reasons I was wrong and that that ___ me, "see you WERE judging me!" and needless to say no progress was made. If anything, I found it shocking to watch his BPD at work as he started twisting everything to go back to justifying how correct his handling of the situation was.

So how genuine was that sentiment in the exact moment he was expressing it? Who knows. All I know was that it was fleeting and led him nowhere near to any actual insight.

[lpheal]

And in that moment he seemed so genuine and concerned that I took the bait.

I found it shocking to watch his BPD at work as he started twisting everything to go back to justifying how correct his handling of the situation was.

Thank you for all of the input. This is exactly what it feels like would happen if I tried to engage on the topic.

I guess I can't know the level of insight my wife may or may not have. Ultimately, I should use this example to recognize how dysfunctional the relationship is now that I don't feel able or comfortable engaging in a conversation like this anymore.

[BeagleGirl]

My apologies if you have already answered this, but does your pwBPD have a counselor/therapist? 

As much as we are learning about dealing with BPD behavior, I think there are some things left up to a professional.  Dealing with the "My daughter is going to hate me the way I hate my mother" statement with support, empathy and truth is one thing (achievable for a "layman" non), but providing advice on how to keep that from happening is probably best left to an expert. 

S.E.T. type response:
"I don't want you to have to deal with that fear.  I know it's really hard for you to not have a loving relationship with your mother.  I can understand why not having the kind of relationship you want with your mom could bring about a lot of fear of not being able to figure out how to be a good mother to our daughter.  I think it would be worthwhile talking about this with your therapist.  They can help you deal with your fears and help you work through anything that you might be doing that could stand in the way of a good relationship with our daughter.  I wish I could fix the hurt and make this all better.  I may not be able to give you any answers or advice, but I'm here to listen.

The offer to listen can depend to some extent on the probability of BPDw shifting back over to raging at you.  You may need to refocus or disengage if that happens.

Do you think that BPDw would respond well to that type of statement?  It might help you be a bit clearer on whether BPDw really recognizes the fear and if she is willing to do something about it.

[DaddyBear77]

Hello lpheal - dad to a D3 here and I've had this very situation occur many many many times. Exposing my D3 to this has been a really difficult aspect of my r/s. I really feel for your position.

In my experience, this insight IS, in fact, real. A pwBPD will often catch glimpses of themselves, and see something "going wrong" with their own emotions and actions. In fact, these glimpses might occur many more times than you'll ever realize. I believe they happen internally quite a bit, and are only rarely externalized.

But here's the thing - the "cause" for these intense emotions and problem behaviors could not possibly be something inside the pwBPD. They MUST come from something external.

Some examples that are likely familiar to you:
- My pwBPD refuses to go into another room instead of raging at me in front of D3? I shouldn't have done whatever it was to cause her to rage in the first place.
- I leave the room instead of engage in the argument? I am abandoning her. I am cold. I am heartless.

This article might offer you some insight into this:
A Theory of the Pattern of Blame

BeagleGirl  suggested you practice SET and also mentioned that a professional counselor / therapist would be the best setting to have her probe these feelings. It's unlikely you'll be able to give her the space to "open up" both because you're the target of blame AND because your own emotional closeness will inhibit your ability to provide the clinical detachment required to process these feelings.

These are just my opinions and observations. Like I said, I'm very much in a similar situation.

[lpheal]

My apologies if you have already answered this, but does your pwBPD have a counselor/therapist? 

As much as we are learning about dealing with BPD behavior, I think there are some things left up to a professional.  Dealing with the "My daughter is going to hate me the way I hate my mother" statement with support, empathy and truth is one thing (achievable for a "layman" non), but providing advice on how to keep that from happening is probably best left to an expert. 

S.E.T. type response:
"I don't want you to have to deal with that fear.  I know it's really hard for you to not have a loving relationship with your mother.  I can understand why not having the kind of relationship you want with your mom could bring about a lot of fear of not being able to figure out how to be a good mother to our daughter.  I think it would be worthwhile talking about this with your therapist.  They can help you deal with your fears and help you work through anything that you might be doing that could stand in the way of a good relationship with our daughter.  I wish I could fix the hurt and make this all better.  I may not be able to give you any answers or advice, but I'm here to listen.

The offer to listen can depend to some extent on the probability of BPDw shifting back over to raging at you.  You may need to refocus or disengage if that happens.

Do you think that BPDw would respond well to that type of statement?  It might help you be a bit clearer on whether BPDw really recognizes the fear and if she is willing to do something about it.

She was seeing a therapist, but she has stopped scheduling appointments in the last three months. I think the counselor was getting close to the truth of things, because they started pressing her on history of past traumatic events, triggers for her "anxiety," etc. She had also started to say that me sending her to see a therapist was my way of outsourcing the solution to problems that I caused. She had to do all of the work in our relationship by seeing someone. If I would just spend that same effort talking to her, none of it would be necessary. I've lost count of the number of hours she has yelled at me for not ever taking the time to talk to her.

I try really hard to practice SET principles, or at least to avoid invalidating comments. I'm better at it than a year ago, if for no other reason that I am familiar with the concept. I've found when she is raging mad that none of these things help.