Lack of remorse: BPD or psychopathy?

[bananas2]

I spent this morning at the doc's getting tested for STD's bc I have symptoms and my BPDh cheated on me multiple times during his "impulsive" phase (last time was approx a year and a half ago). I spoke with BPDh on the phone and explained to him the pain & embarrassment I went thru having to describe my symptoms to doc, enduring a painful exam, & having to admit that my hub has definitely been unfaithful. He initially seemed slightly sorry, but then his shame turned to anger at me. He kept repeating "That was in the past. I'm not cheating anymore!" Tried to explain to him that his despicable choices now have PRESENT consequences for me.
He just seemed so unremorseful that I can't even comprehend it. If I caused permanent pain to someone, I'd be dying of guilt & shame. All he projected was anger that I'd brought up "the past."
Is this lack of remorse a characteristic of BPD, a deflection of shame-response, or a symptom of psychopathy?

[Tattered Heart]

I can't tell for sure, but it sounded more like a response to shame. He may also be scared. Has he responded to other issues regarding consequences in the same manner?

[bananas2]

Has he responded to other issues regarding consequences in the same manner?

Yes, he has responded this way several times when I expressed justified anger at a behavior of his.
I'm just learning that psychopathy & BPD have some similar traits: Lack of guilt/remorse/empathy, superficial charm, dishonesty, manipulativeness, reckless risk-taking.
I'm thinking now that it doesn't matter what we call it; we have to deal with the pwBPD's symptoms regardless of the label.

[CMJ]

Hi bananas2

I read a wonderful line by another user on here but I can't find the post again to quote it from.
It went something like this: BPD is all about shame avoidance, avoiding responsibility for their feelings and actions because of them.

Certainly fits my friend. I can't verify it as I wasn't there myself but there is a story about her at work; she accused the entire team that she worked with of bullying her, went to HR and everything. Naturally there was an investigation and they were all found innocent. Now I'd imagine that during an investigation like that it's going to be hard to keep the accuser's identity a secret from the accused as they'll be asking specifically about their interactions etc. After the investigation was complete, about 6 of the accused confronted her together, she denied everything. She even accused them of being mean when she tried befriending them afterwards but they weren't interested.

Back in May she blocked me on all social media after I sent her a message expressing the hope her family and friends hadn't been affected by a terror attack in the city they live. Yeah, just let that sink in for a bit 
We started talking again last weekend and she said she had to push me away because a message I'd sent about 6 weeks previous to the terror one had confused and scared her. She said she was sorry but there was no acknowledgement about how I may have felt about it all, it was all from her perspective.

Sounds like that might fit you pwBPD too.

[isilme]

I agree this sounds more like a shame response - "But I'm not doing it NOW, so don't make me remember."  I know you want him to feel upset that his past actions can still hurt in more ways than one to this day, but BPD is an emotional handicap, and while I bet on some level he DOES feel it, his shame avoidance will be such that YOU will never get the validation YOU need about it.  At least not in telling him how you feel or expressing how you expect him to feel about it.  Yes, it would be embarrassing to learn that infidelity years back has possibly come back to haunt the relationship.  But he CAN NOT admit that.  And his focus will be anger on your for reminding him that he should feel bad.

As for sociopathy/psychopathy - BPD is a spectrum, just like all other mental illnesses and conditions.  If you look into works written about childhood experiences with BPD mothers, there are archetypes based on how the BPD manifests, With, Queen, Hermit, and Waif, and how there are combinations of them.  My mother was a very low functioning pwBPD.  She needs to latch onto people to support her, because she is unregulated to the point of not being able to do it herself - keeping full-time jobs, keeping up with rent, all a struggle for her as long as I can remember.  Her primary tools were guilt and outright disapproval - guilt if you failed her or disagreed, disapproval when guilt failed to get the correct response.  Mom is a pretty sad, pathetic lady, and if I was strong willed enough and did not revert back to little-me in her presence, I'd not be NC with her and would try to keep tabs on her at least.  But it's far too much for me.  It almost broke me. 

Dad, on the other hand, is frightening.  His anger was quiet in public, violent in private, and he would disassociate when beating me.  He knew enough of what he was doing to hide it well from the public, to discredit me as needed to save his own face the few times I sought help or even a sympathetic ear, and as a PR person could be very charming as needed... .until the mask could fall away.  I have no doubt he falls closer to the sociopath side of the spectrum.  I believe he killed my pet cat so we could move in with my stepmother, who hates indoor animals.  He told me the cat was sick, I must have poisoned it accidentally, and that they vet could not put it down before its stomach burst and it died in great pain in the vet's office.  I believed him until about 5 years ago, blaming myself for my cat dying and feeling terrible about it, when H and I took our very first furbaby in after she had a stroke at age 15.  Same vet.  They took one look at her, rushed her to the back for tests, told us within 10 minutes she was not going to recover, did we want to ease her pain, and within a very short time she passed in our arms.  There is no way this vet would have allowed an animal to suffer as my dad described.  I think now he may have broken the cat's neck and tossed him while I was at school, and made up a story so I'd be too upset to question it. 

So yes, there is impaired empathy with BPD.  There is a  line between avoiding shame because it hurts the pwBPD so much to admit it they can't handle it, and inflicting pain because you have no empathy for anyone else at all. 

[lostandconfused6]

My pwBPD responds to shame and embarrassment with anger and being hurtful towards me... .he can't stand looking stupid or having something come to light that he knows he did wrong.

[bananas2]

isilme - I'm so sorry you had to endure the loss of your pet like that and then been made to believe it was your fault. Just awful.
I see what you mean about the spectrum. I think my BPDh falls somewhere in between your mother and father. I fully understand the discrediting to save face. Whenever I'm justifiably mad at hub, his first reaction is to contact family members and tell them I'm acting "crazy" and that he doesn't know why I'm so mad at him. This made it incredibly hard a few years ago when he needed emergency psychiatric help, bc when I tried to get assistance for him from his family, they didn't believe me and just thought I was "acting crazy" like he told them so many times.

Shame & embarrassment are awful feelings for anyone. I can't imagine how much more deeply pwBPD feel shame than nons that they would go to such lengths to avoid that feeling, even to the point where they end up hurting themselves and/or others. 

P.S. - I still don't have my test results back. The waiting is agony.

[bananas2]

I got my test results back and they are negative!  I'm so relieved.

I've learned a lesson in all of this: to lower my expectations of my BPDh. Maybe if I don't expect him to show me genuine remorse or empathy, then I may just be pleasantly surprised some day if he actually does.

[isilme]

I've learned a lesson in all of this: to lower my expectations of my BPDh. Maybe if I don't expect him to show me genuine remorse or empathy, then I may just be pleasantly surprised some day if he actually does.

I'd say have REALISTIC expectations as you become more knowledgeable about his actual emotional capabilities.  Being very mindful of how mush of his actions are dictated by BPD, how his hurtful actions stem from it, and how his failings at being supportive of you also stem from it, is actually a good way, in my opinion, to protect you. 

If I do not expect H to be able to cope with something, or I am aware that XYZ is going to likely result in him lashing out, yes, when he reacts otherwise, it IS a nice feeling.  That does not make it easy in those times when you REALLY want to have a shoulder, when you really want to rely on someone instead of the other way around.  But even then, realizing your loved on has some pretty set limitations, but that you love them and within those limitations, they still make some sort of effort, helps.