Love, Forgiveness, and Tolerance - is it Possible or Asking for Trouble?

[Peacefromwithin]

I'm in a spiritual program that teaches us to be kind, loving, tolerant, and forgiving to those who are "sick", although not to grovel or take abuse.

We're supposed to focus on our behavior only, and not the other person's behavior.

Maybe this is a question for my therapist, but I'm just curious if the exception to this rule may be when dealing with someone with BPD or NPD, or not. Or am I just supposed to be kind, loving, tolerant, and forgiving with these insane people, keep them at arm's length, and go from there? It is awfully confusing. And I have so much guilt. Dealing with them is just extraordinarily draining.

[Notwendy]

I think kindness, love, and tolerance are good things, but I think when dealing with co-dependency traits, we tend to interpret these things in ways that are not good for us.

A big point is- do we extend kindness, love, forgiveness, and tolerance to ourselves? Many of us are good at doing this for others, but tend to forget that self love and self care are essential.

Another point is authenticity. If we are being kind, loving, and tolerant towards someone else while also feeling resentful- that isn't kindness to us, or to them.

Sometimes real love is tough love. Saying yes, when we mean no isn't being loving. Sometimes, "no" is the loving thing to do, even if the other person doesn't like it. Love is allowing the person to learn from the consequences of their actions and not enabling. ( for me the exception is imminent self harm- call 911 for the person if this is a possibility)

There are limits of tolerance. Tolerance is accepting that people can be different from us in many ways without making them wrong. But some behaviors, we don't and should not tolerate.

We need boundaries. When you ask - is this asking for trouble? In my experience, being kind, loving, or tolerant without good boundaries is. However, if we are able to be authentic, say yes when we mean yes, no when we mean no- and stick to that, if we are able to keep self love a priority, then we can stay out of trouble.

Forgiveness is entirely for us. It's about letting go of resentment. But it doesn't mean forgetting or not having boundaries. It doesn't mean we allow the same behaviors over again.

In some cases, self love requires we stop contact or go low contact.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Peacefromwithin! 

You've asked some really good and thoughtful questions. These are the pondering kind, one's which will propel you into more and more growth. I love that you are thinking and asking like this.

I'm going to share a quote with you from Pete Walker and his article titled Forgiveness: Begins With The Self.

There has been a lot of shaming, dangerous and inaccurate "guidance" put out about forgiveness in the last few years, in both the recovery community and in transpersonal circles. Many survivors of dysfunctional families have been injured by the simplistic, black and white advice that decrees that they must embrace a position of being totally and permanently forgiving in order to recover. Unfortunately, those who have taken the advice to forgive abuses that they have not fully grieved, abuses that are still occurring, and/or abuses so heinous they should and could never be forgiven, often find themselves getting nowhere in their recovery process. In fact, the possibility of attaining real feelings of forgiveness is usually lost when there is a premature, cognitive decision to forgive. This is because premature forgiving intentions mimic the defenses of denial and repression. They keep unprocessed feelings of anger and hurt about childhood unfairnesses out of awareness.

Real forgiveness is quite distinct from premature forgiveness. It is almost always a byproduct of effective grieving and no amount of thought, intention or belief can bring it into being without a descension into the feeling realms.

I find this to be very thought provoking, encouraging me to not fall into the trap that my Christian circle says to 'just forgive' my uBPDm or whoever it may be. Can it be helpful to forgive? Yes, all in time, if I can. But it is a process of grieving my losses and my hurts that will allow me to forgive deeply, and that will take time.

I know I'm only touching on part of your question, but hopefully there are some good thoughts for you to consider. Notwendy has also listed some very good points. What do you think of these suggestions? I'm really glad you are in T too! 

 
Wools

[Peacefromwithin]

I think kindness, love, and tolerance are good things, but I think when dealing with co-dependency traits, we tend to interpret these things in ways that are not good for us.

That is an excellent point. I must make sure when dealing with the pwBPD/NPD in my family to not turn kindness, love, and tolerance into people-pleasing and being a doormat to avoid their insanity.

A big point is- do we extend kindness, love, forgiveness, and tolerance to ourselves? Many of us are good at doing this for others, but tend to forget that self love and self care are essential.

That's an important point. If a person like me suffers from depression/anxiety, that means I'm living in my head too much, in self-centerdness although it's a reverse sense of self-centerdness. I need to think of others, to get out of my head. But how does one think of others, when those "others" are people with personality disorders? I think there needs to be a balance between being kind, loving, and tolerant of others but not at the expense of myself. I finally had that epiphany, but that's what I was wondering how to do.

Another point is authenticity. If we are being kind, loving, and tolerant towards someone else while also feeling resentful- that isn't kindness to us, or to them.

What an excellent point. That's why I personally do not like the saying "act as if", because to me it sounds phony and inauthentic. If I'm smiling on the outside and calmly being of service to someone hand and foot who has the emotional maturity of a 2 year old, while figuratively speaking clenching my fists, that's not going to do me any good.

Sometimes real love is tough love. Saying yes, when we mean no isn't being loving. Sometimes, "no" is the loving thing to do, even if the other person doesn't like it. Love is allowing the person to learn from the consequences of their actions and not enabling. ( for me the exception is imminent self harm- call 911 for the person if this is a possibility)

This is so true and such a difficult thing for me to learn, because people-pleasing was a huge survival skill for me with the pwBPD/NPD. I must learn to think of myself, too, and not do something just because it'll make someone with a PD feel better or not be angry or rage.

There are limits of tolerance. Tolerance is accepting that people can be different from us in many ways without making them wrong. But some behaviors, we don't and should not tolerate.

Can you give examples? Obviously abuse shouldn't be tolerated. But what about dealing with someone who is very manipulative, sneaky, plays the victim, acts phony-nice to get you to like her, wants you to like everything she likes and gets angry if you don't, etc.? Is there any hope to have some sort of relationship with a family member like that?

And what about tolerance regarding the family member with BPD/NPD who act like 2 year olds and absolutely suck every drop of energy out of you, act embarrassingly in public without any self-awareness, etc., even though they think they love you and want to spend time with you? No matter how tired you look, they just keep talking your ear off and do not get the hint? Or they scream, yell, and act demanding or loud in public?

We need boundaries. When you ask - is this asking for trouble? In my experience, being kind, loving, or tolerant without good boundaries is. However, if we are able to be authentic, say yes when we mean yes, no when we mean no- and stick to that, if we are able to keep self love a priority, then we can stay out of trouble.

Thank you for spelling it out like this. I have to break the habit of people-pleasing or being afraid to hurt their feelings.

Forgiveness is entirely for us. It's about letting go of resentment. But it doesn't mean forgetting or not having boundaries. It doesn't mean we allow the same behaviors over again.

This was extremely helpful. I often would end up resentful, which doesn't do any good for my well-being. I'd be carrying a resentment of them, but the real resentment is on me--that I wasn't taking care of myself. Do I understand that right? I avoid future resentments by allowing them to act crazy, by not expecting them to act differently or change just because I changed, by being kind, loving and tolerant within reason meaning using boundaries to take care of myself?

In some cases, self love requires we stop contact or go low contact.

That's a good point. I need to remind myself of that anytime I feel guilty. My therapist even said that visiting them because I feel guilty is not a good reason to visit them. I didn't understand what he meant. I thought he meant I was a bad and selfish person for not "wanting" to visit them out of love. So then I felt guilty for doing it out of guilt... .

[Peacefromwithin]

Woolspinner,

Thank you so much for a very helpful reply. I appreciate it a lot.

There has been a lot of shaming, dangerous and inaccurate "guidance" put out about forgiveness in the last few years, in both the recovery community and in transpersonal circles. Many survivors of dysfunctional families have been injured by the simplistic, black and white advice that decrees that they must embrace a position of being totally and permanently forgiving in order to recover.

Yes. I've been taught to forgive those who are spiritually sick, and treat them with love and kindness. Although, I was also taught (thankfully) to not make amends to someone who abused me. That being said, there seems to be an emphasis in that respect on those who sexual abuse, but not on those who use physical, emotional, or psychological abuse. I'm not sure why, and it's just my experience/opinion. The pwBPD/NPD is smart and knows how to use the type of abuse they can get away with. Usually the type that doesn't leave a mark on the outside.

Sometimes I think, is there a difference, perhaps, in those who abuse and don't know they are abusing, than those who abuse and know damn well what they're doing? That confuses me, too. If a person is mentally ill with a personality disorder, they don't know that they are mentally ill. They think everyone else around them is. So do they actually know they are being abusive? Are we supposed to forgive someone who knows they are being abusive but does it anyway, or only someone who doesn't know they are being abusive and just is mentally ill? It's very confusing. Or maybe I'm overthinking it. I think my family members with BPD know damn well what they're doing. I think my family members with NPD are so self-absorbed that perhaps they don't know what they're doing or they don't care.

Unfortunately, those who have taken the advice to forgive abuses that they have not fully grieved, abuses that are still occurring, and/or abuses so heinous they should and could never be forgiven, often find themselves getting nowhere in their recovery process.

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I've often thought about this exact thing. If someone is still living with a person with BPD/NPD, then forgiving would mean the behavior would just continue, no? It would be like a child who gets hit, forgives the parent, and the cycle just keeps repeating ad nausea.

And to what do we regard as abuses so heinous that they should never be forgiven? If a pwBPD completely and utterly crushes a sweet innocent child's soul to the point that she feels dead inside and constantly has suicidal thoughts, is that heinous? Or are we speaking of physical or sexual abuse? Sometimes I just wonder which of the three is worse. The later two are easier to see for what they are. The first is psychologically more difficult to process. That's just my experience, however. I'm not saying it's right.

I was taught that forgiveness doesn't mean I tell the person I forgive them. It doesn't mean I'm okay with what they did. It just means I'm making the conscious choice to let go of the anger, hurt, and resentment that I carry inside of me, because it is only hurting ME. It's like that Buddhist quote that says “Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.” But to what extent do we let go of the anger, but continue to have a relationship with someone who hasn't changed? Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek. But is that what is meant by love, tolerance, and forgiveness? To do that *repeatedly* with the same person? Where does self-love come into play? This is what confuses me.

I faught doing step work for a long time because my first sponsor wanted me to make amends to my mother for anytime I yelled at her as a kid or whatever kids do. THANK GOD my therapist firmly said to me "Under no circumstances are you to make amends to your mother. ALL kids yell and stuff like that. You did nothing wrong!" (Yes I am fortunate that my therapist understood BPD. He had a parent with BPD so he understood it.)

I shudder when I think about how an amends with that monster would have gone (sorry that's not very kind of me, I know... .) Yes it would've made my mother feel good because she's always felt like a bad mother and projected that onto me. But I would've had a nervous breakdown very likely just looking at her holier-than-thou facial expression and listening to her holier-than-thou tone of voice. It'd probably go something like this:

Me: "Mom, I wanted to apologize for all the times I didn't respect you, screamed, or stamped my feet, or didn't sit perfectly still at the dinner table or picked at the soda bottle label which meant you couldn't get your nickle back from the recyling place."

Mom: Raising her chin up with the holier than thou facial expression, with an evil smirk on her face, sitting up really tall to look down on me "Oh! So now you see what a good mother I was, right? Oh I'm only joking, haha. You were certainly impossible, such a brat, all that screaming and I did so much for you kids. I'm glad you finally see what a good mother I was".  

Me: Lying to myself and her "Yup! You were a good mother and I was an awful child. You didn't deserve that. What can I do to make it right?"

Mom: "Oh well YOU can pay for dinner! [PWF's Dad's name]! PWF is going to pay for dinner because she was such a brat!" (By the way I wasn't a brat. I was a sweet, good child in a tremendous amount of emotional pain).

Yeah okay well who really knows how it'd go but that's how I'd picture it going. Then again I could also see her doing this:

Mom: Eyes completely bugging out of her head, me sitting there wondering if her head was going to start spinning around like Medusa, mom says in that arrogant, houghty-toughty voice: "Are-You-Apologizing-to-Me-for-Being-Such-An-Impossible-Child?" Mom nervously laughs and screams to my dad" "[PWF's Dad's name]! [PWF's Dad's name]! YOUR-DAUGHER-is-APOLOGIZING-to-me-for-being-a-BRAT!"

Mom's voice is so loud that people at surrounding tables start to stare and eventually tables next to us ask to be moved. Mom boasts and brags to waitress, acting like a 4 year old, telling her that her daughter is paying for dinner to make up for being such a brat and impossible child and what a good mother she was. Mom continues to babble to the waitress like a crazy person, with eyes bugged out of her head and continues to yell to dad or kick him under the table to listen to what is going on.

And no I am not creating this in my head or being over-dramatic. I know how they act and what they do and say. This would be so like them.

Yeah. No. Not Happening. Ever.

Christian thing to do or not.

Nope.

Not
Going
There.  

Tell me I can still be a good Christian and not have to put myself through that?    

In fact, the possibility of attaining real feelings of forgiveness is usually lost when there is a premature, cognitive decision to forgive. This is because premature forgiving intentions mimic the defenses of denial and repression. They keep unprocessed feelings of anger and hurt about childhood unfairnesses out of awareness.

This is very important and something I need to delve into more. I know during my spiritual growth, I have had moments of compassion for the pwBPD/NPD in my life. I've seen them as sick people. So there is something there. But I don't want to force it. It scares me actually when I start to have compassion toward them. Because I can't seem to break the it-was-either-all-my-fault-or-all-their-fault thing. I have a tremendous fear that if I start to have compassion for them, I will either (a)put all the blame on me all over again, or (b)allow them to treat me like a doormat again. At least when I was angry, that anger sort of protected myself.

Sorry this reply seems all over the place. This was really hard to write about, and I just sort of let my emotions flow with my typing so I could allow myself to feel my feelings.

Real forgiveness is quite distinct from premature forgiveness. It is almost always a byproduct of effective grieving and no amount of thought, intention or belief can bring it into being without a descension into the feeling realms.[/i][/color]

I could definitely see how premature forgiveness could be detrimental to people like us. The longer I've been in my spiritual journey, the more I see that forgiveness sort of means letting the stuff go. Not letting it be such a big part of my thinking or how I feel about myself anymore. Sort of like separating myself from and letting go of the pain. I don't have to allow sick people to cause me pain anymore.

I find this to be very thought provoking, encouraging me to not fall into the trap that my Christian circle says to 'just forgive' my uBPDm or whoever it may be. Can it be helpful to forgive? Yes, all in time, if I can. But it is a process of grieving my losses and my hurts that will allow me to forgive deeply, and that will take time.

Yes. Exactly my dilemma. I think we're supposed to "forgive" but not at the detriment of our self. I'm still allowed to keep up a protective barrier so they can't re-hurt me. But I can choose to let go of the anger I've been carrying around over how they hurt me. I don't have to allow them to hurt me anymore. I think we shouldn't force ourselves to grieve our hurts, either. Although I can grieve the fact that my family members weren't the people I wanted them to be. And know that it wasn't personal; they are just sick.

I know I'm only touching on part of your question, but hopefully there are some good thoughts for you to consider. Notwendy has also listed some very good points. What do you think of these suggestions? I'm really glad you are in T too!  

Your response was extremely helpful, as was Notwendy's. I have a lot of processing to do now. I really appreciate your suggestions. You've given me more things to think about. Again I apologize for my emotional response but I am not going to edit it. It's important that I stay true to my feelings and to feel them.

I truly don't think the Christian viewpoint of "forgiveness" means we continue to take sh*t from others. I think it means we love others but not at the expense of loving ourselves. I don't have to take abuse from a mentally ill person, whether they're aware of it or not, just to be forgiving, kind, loving and tolerant. But I can set boundaries in a way that protects myself without being aggressive or overly assertive. If they choose to act "hurt" or angry, that's on them and not on me. I don't think being a good Christian means I am supposed to let people use me as their own drug to stroke their own egos or for me to take on and solve their strong feelings of anger, rage, or hurt, at the expense of my own. Do I understand this right?

[lovesherfam]

I'm in a spiritual program that teaches us to be kind, loving, tolerant, and forgiving to those who are "sick", although not to grovel or take abuse.

We're supposed to focus on our behavior only, and not the other person's behavior.

Maybe this is a question for my therapist, but I'm just curious if the exception to this rule may be when dealing with someone with BPD or NPD, or not. Or am I just supposed to be kind, loving, tolerant, and forgiving with these insane people, keep them at arm's length, and go from there? It is awfully confusing. And I have so much guilt. Dealing with them is just extraordinarily draining.

It is hard to be kind all the time tho... there are people out there that make it ughh... almost impossible

[Pilpel]

Peace from within,

These are questions I deal with all the time, too.  With most people, I think I have a fairly easy time forgiving and looking past things.  And I realize that I have things that need to be forgiven and looked past as well.  But it's hard with a N/BPD.  With my N/BPD SIL, everyone in the family has made an effort to be forgiving and keep the peace.  It's just a given that she is held to a different standard of accountability, because we all forgive and keep the peace as if she's mentally ill and can't help it.

I've written about this on here recently, but I have kids that are around the same age as my brother and NPD SIL's kids.  My kids have described having problems with their cousins that sound parallel to the problems we have with the mom:  they can be as physically bullying (as she is emotionally bullying), they don't seem to understand cooperative play, they can be selfish, not sharing, and manipulative.  I've talked to my brother and SIL about the physical bullying years ago.  And the situation did improve, though by their response I felt like they thought I was over-reacting.  And my brother has flat out suggested that my son should toughen up and fight back.  I hope for the best.  I see a lot of good qualities with their kids, too.  And I hope those good qualities shine more as they mature.  But when my kids were describing how unpleasant (and how much like their mother) they could be, I realized that I can't in good conscience force my kids to just forgive and continue to play with their cousins if the cousins are not playing nice, in the same way that I forgive and pretend all is okay with the mother.  And I think it's interesting that I -and so many other members of our family- have put up with the SIL.  And yet I realize that I would consider it wrong for my kids to ignore, forgive, and put up with the same bad behaviors from their cousins. 

[Peacefromwithin]

With my N/BPD SIL, everyone in the family has made an effort to be forgiving and keep the peace.  It's just a given that she is held to a different standard of accountability, because we all forgive and keep the peace as if she's mentally ill and can't help it.

That's a really good way of dealing with it. But does that mean you give in to her? My mother learned at some time in her life, that if she threw a loud enough angry fit, she'd get her way. I don't think that's fair just to keep the peace with someone who's mentally ill.

I realized that I can't in good conscience force my kids to just forgive and continue to play with their cousins if the cousins are not playing nice, in the same way that I forgive and pretend all is okay with the mother.  And I think it's interesting that I -and so many other members of our family- have put up with the SIL.  And yet I realize that I would consider it wrong for my kids to ignore, forgive, and put up with the same bad behaviors from their cousins.  

I was reminded of a good rule of thumb today that I'm going to follow:

Love, tolerance, and forgiveness--but not at the expense of yourself.

[Notwendy]

Can you give examples? Obviously abuse shouldn't be tolerated. But what about dealing with someone who is very manipulative, sneaky, plays the victim, acts phony-nice to get you to like her, wants you to like everything she likes and gets angry if you don't, etc.? Is there any hope to have some sort of relationship with a family member like that?

And what about tolerance regarding the family member with BPD/NPD who act like 2 year olds and absolutely suck every drop of energy out of you, act embarrassingly in public without any self-awareness, etc., even though they think they love you and want to spend time with you? No matter how tired you look, they just keep talking your ear off and do not get the hint? Or they scream, yell, and act demanding or loud in public?


My mother is like this- manipulative, sneaky.

I think of "tolerance" as something different. It does not mean condoning all behaviors. We, as a society and as individuals, don't and should not tolerate behaviors like dishonesty, cruelty. Is it OK to rob a bank? No. Tolerance is differences in opinion, politics, cultures, religions. Tolerance is allowing someone to worship at their place of choice, choose to follow their own cultural practices, accept that someone voted for the candidate you didn't. It isn't allowing someone to mistreat others.

I also think tolerance includes accepting that the person is who they are and is not likely to change. So if we visit them, we have to realize they are going to do the things they usually do. Our part is boundaries- how much time we wish to spend with them and how we choose to respond to their behavior.

With annoying family members, I think we have to pick our battles. One way I manage this is to keep visits to my mother short. One idea of tolerance is to realize she is who she is, and isn't likely to change. So, if I choose to visit her, I also have to consider how long I wish to spend with her. I do not allow her to mistreat me, but I also realize that she isn't likely to change. If a visit to her is difficult, I can decide to only visit for a short while, not a long one. If she calls me, I can decide to talk now or call her back later.