Neverending CE

[flourdust]

My response to CE would simply be "if it's ready, release it now. it's been so long, it's been promised so many times and then you've given so many excuses why it's not out yet, that I truly won't believe you're done with it until I actually get my hands on it. until then, to me, your concern is just another delay tactic.  let me worry about my daughter, no more excuses, no more delays."

This!

[Nope]

Thinking about you this morning. Hoping you are too busy reading an epic CE report to log in today.
 

[Thunderstruck]

uBPDbm was an hour and a half late to the exchange and the CE left her office for the night.  Good news is I think she'll be in the office this weekend.

[david]

A little humor. My ex is supposed to pick our S14 up every other Wednesday at 10 am during the summer. In the last 4 or 5 years she has only been on time twice. This last Wednesday she called s14 and told him she was running a little late. I did what I was planning on doing anyway. We went out and returned home. Ex arrived at 7:45 pm to pick him up. It's her new record on being a "little" late. The record before that was 4 hours late. She is usually about 45 minutes late and I pretty much expect that.

[formflier]

How many lawyers have you ever hired before?  Am I correct in assuming this is the first one?

Unfortunately/fortunately... .I've had lots of experience with JAG officers in the Navy, lawyers in civil government and lawyers in my private life.

My impression is that the good ones will help their client understand "why" the current legal strategy is appropriate and "what to look for" as a time to switch strategies.

Ls are trained to "get along" with each other.  So... .it is appropriate to start out friendly and solve problems... almost to be "happy to work together to solve... .xyz"

It's important that lawyers can do this.

It's also important that lawyers can pull out (legal) knives and stab people (and other Ls) when needed.

It sounds like your current L has offered only one strategy... .wait... .and where has that gotten you. 

Have you asked a direct question of the L... .when is it appropriate to "go after" the CE to "compel".

If you haven't asked this question... please do.

I'm 99% sure that flourdust (and others) are right... .your guy is way to passive.  If he avoids answering the question... .I'm 100% sure.

Ask the question first... .without any threat... .just "In your opinion, when should we take action with CE to compel"

depending on response... .next communication should let your lawyer know that you need action or you are ready to change... .

Again... not nastygrams... .but direct questions/communications.

To put context in my own life.  A legal matter (unrelated to BPDish stuff) of mine has been limping along for a long time.  I approved a "knives out" strategy with my Ls over a month ago.  We are all in agreement on this change... .and it was three weeks later a bunch of things got filed and kicked the hornets nest.

It is important to do it "right"... .vice fast... .but 3 years is preposterous.

FF

[livednlearned]

Would it help to go to the press?

I see how you could feel boxed in. It already costs so much money to hire a CE, not to mention an L.

And now it seems that the report will be in your favor.

So changing Ls at this point, so close to the finish line, could feel like spending money that isn't really there

I would probably feel desperate to lean on someone outside who could shine light on what's happening.

These professionals are dysfunctional, they probably feel weary about the system and things won't change until there is pressure from outside to clean house.

I'm so sorry you have had this hanging over your head for so long, Thunderstruck. You deserve a medal for enduring what you have been through.

[Thunderstruck]

DH received some texts from the CE this weekend asking about our home... .she performed her last home study after we first moved in (~1.5 years ago) and since then we've done some work. Nothing else, no report. Since then uBPDbm has also moved so I don't know if the holdup is now the CE trying to get information from uBPDbm about the new place. The CE's words of "without any uncertainty" have just become hollow.

My DH is finally accepting that there is no report. SD will go back to uBPDbm's on Wednesday and that will be another reason for the CE to delay delay delay.

So my task is to now gather allllll the information regarding the CE and try to organize it into a picture of what has been going on. A friend recommended we file a motion to speak to the judge directly and lay it all out for him. I'm going to include: Initial court order appointing the CE, the retainer agreement we signed, all evidence of money we've given the CE (including replenishment retainers), a timeline of the work that she did (based on her invoice statements), then all the "oh the report will be ready next week" emails that we've received in the past 2ish years. Oh, and I want to include all the money we've spent on the lawyer having to extend the court deadline twice, all the money we've spent on the lawyer calling the CE for a status update, and the money we've spent having to litigate issues that should have been resolved years ago with the completed CE.

[formflier]

So... I am still catching up here.

It would appear you are in direct contact with the CE.

So... .when you directly ask the CE a about the due date and the delays... .what does she say?

FF

[flourdust]

So my task is to now gather allllll the information regarding the CE and try to organize it into a picture of what has been going on. A friend recommended we file a motion to speak to the judge directly and lay it all out for him. I'm going to include: Initial court order appointing the CE, the retainer agreement we signed, all evidence of money we've given the CE (including replenishment retainers), a timeline of the work that she did (based on her invoice statements), then all the "oh the report will be ready next week" emails that we've received in the past 2ish years. Oh, and I want to include all the money we've spent on the lawyer having to extend the court deadline twice, all the money we've spent on the lawyer calling the CE for a status update, and the money we've spent having to litigate issues that should have been resolved years ago with the completed CE.

I think this is a valuable step to take but it should not be your first step. Have your lawyer send a demand letter to the CE today -- you want the report right now, and if there is no completed report, you want all drafts and notes. Immediately. You might shake something loose with this.

[livednlearned]

Flourdust makes a good point.

What about also demanding repayment? You probably won't get it, but maybe just focusing on the consequence alone would get her to get off her pot. 

[flourdust]

What about also demanding repayment? You probably won't get it, but maybe just focusing on the consequence alone would get her to get off her pot. 

Agreed. You may get nothing out of these demands, but they cost you nothing, and they can serve as the cherry on top of the sundae of evidence you are building to present to the court.

[david]

Having a timeline with all the CE bs is good. Make another one with all the bs from BPD and the damage it is doing to the kids. "Your honor, I have no more patience."

[livednlearned]

You may want to also chat with the Clerk of Court and find out if your case is unusual for your family law court.

They can't give legal advice but they can offer a surprising amount of information. I didn't learn this until the end of four years banging my head against the wall.

My judge had some law students in court one day, and he told them that the Clerk of Court was the most important person in the courtroom, and to never forget that.

[Thunderstruck]

I am completely livid! Seeing red right now!

We got an email from the L, they apparently received a "working copy" of the report this morning which the CE said to disregard and she will send the final copy this afternoon. (this isn't the part that got my so upset... .it's just more frustration and par for the course)

Well then we received an email from the L saying they will not turn the report over to us unless we pay off our "balance" with them, charges that they accrued calling and statusing the CE AFTER WE TOLD THEM NOT TO. We said we didn't want to wait anymore. We said we wanted to know what other options there were. The L ignored our emails and instead continued to wait, call the CE, and charge us a couple thousand dollars to do so! Now he's saying to hold our report hostage until we pay this balance!

I am in complete meltdown mode. Definitely emotionally reacted. I called the L's office and went off on one of his staff. He'll probably charge me for that phone call too!

[Nope]

Tell the CE that this L is no longer representing you and that like BPDm you are pro se and entitled to a copy directly. You can always find a new L after you read the report. The money fight with that L can then be a separate issue.
 

[david]

I had a major disagreement with my first attorney. The attorney refused to do anything else until I paid my balance. I was livid because the attorney screwed up and was still charging me for the screw up. I told the attorney to pound sand and she would have to take me to court. She hung up on me. The next day her receptionist called and asked if we could settle. I offered ten cents on the dollar provided I received all papers that she still had that I did not and that I get a receipt saying I was paid in full. The attorney never spoke to me again but it was agreed to.
If you have emails or other proof that you told the attorney to stop and they did not then that should be a slam dunk in court. You need dates of all the billing records and when you told them to stop.

[Thunderstruck]

Tell the CE that this L is no longer representing you and that like BPDm you are pro se and entitled to a copy directly. You can always find a new L after you read the report. The money fight with that L can then be a separate issue.
 

I like this idea. I'm trying not to knee-jerk reaction fire the L but we've been thinking about getting rid of him for some time and after this response from him I am disgusted. We may not be perfect and always pay him on time but we have always paid. Where has that gotten us? He's bullying us into giving him another $2k and withholding legal information that is critical to our case, information that WE paid for. It's not his property, he has no right to keep it from us. Ugh!

I'm trying to convince DH to go to the clerk (thanks LnL) and ask them what we should do... .maybe get a meeting with the judge? We hired these professionals to help us and they have failed us miserably. We have slipped through the cracks and it's just completely awful.

[david]

I did a few things pro se because I could not afford an attorney. They were simple things. I used petitions from my attorney as templates. It took a while the first time and I spent two days in the law library to figure out the procedure. I was about 80 % correct. When I went to file a woman that worked there told me what I had done incorrectly since it would not be allowed to move forward. I fixed everything and went back. She looked it over and said it looked good. I had to wait because, I believe, it was the clerk had to time stamp the three copies. The clerk wanted to talk to me because my petition said it was pro se. The clerk asked me who was helping me. I explained what I did and she didn't believe me because the petition looked too good ? That was the first one. I did two or three more after that and things were much easier. I would not address the issue you are dealing with pro se. I am just pointing out that you can go to the court and ask some questions. If the person views you as sincere and trying to do what is right they may give you some guidance.
I looked for another attorney after my disagreement with my first attorney. By then I had an idea of what I wanted to achiever and I also knew, to some degree, how the game was played.
I talked to 6 or 7 before I found one I thought was a good fit. He is still my attorney if I need one for family court. He listens and tells me what I can and should expect. He challenged me several times when he thought I was going in the wrong direction. After talking further, we both came to an agreed upon course of action. Sometimes he changed his mind and sometimes I changed my mind. It really felt like a team effort. He had a really good reputation in the court. I learned that later on. I never "lost" after that and ex eventually stopped fighting me in court.

[david]

They may even give you some guidance as to who to talk to as far as attorneys. I never asked but I do believe the one person I talked to would have told me who is viewed positively.

[Thunderstruck]

Ok, here's the plan:
Step 1: Fire attorney immediately.
Step 2: Notify CE that we are now pro se and the release of the report should be to DH directly.
Step 3: DH is going to the clerk to say "Here's our situation, what should I do?". Based on their response we may get some good ideas on how to proceed, otherwise:
Step 4: Give CE a date to hand over the report or demand our money back.
Then... .? I'm thinking maybe a motion to compel?

Anything I'm missing?

[GaGrl]

How incredibly frustrating!

A few thoughts... .

1) Write an email to the lawyer terminating representation but don't hit Send until you... .

2) Get the CE on the phone and inform her you have terminated representation and are pro se, etc. etc... no further communications with your lawyer. Hit Send on the lawyer's email as soon as CE is in the phone conversation.

3) Call the lawyer's office and tell them to access their email, they have been terminated and are not to receive any further communications on your behalf. You will discuss final billing at a later date.

That way, you have documented the situation to prevent the CE and your lawyer from having a conversation with each other... .at least one that you are paying for.

[formflier]

I agree with the email plan (assuming you really want to fire L).  However, those communications to both parties need to be followed up with certified return receipt letters to both parties, with copies of the emails attached, to further "prove" that the communications were received.

Big picture.  Assume this plan will go south and you have to prove every step of the way in a future court action.  Especially if you end up representing yourself, you need to appear over prepared.

Is email and phone sufficient, especially if you call from cell phone and keep billing records to prove a call was made, yes... it should be sufficient.  But for $10-12 bucks more you can "spike the ball" and set the tone of who is prepared and who is not.

Then of course you hope it doesn't get to that point, all the while having the comfort of knowing you are prepared to get there.


Last:  I realize lawyers are expensive.  I realize you are not a fan of lawyers at the moment.  I realize that many on here have been successful without a lawyer, and that it is likely you will be successful as well... .

That being said... .

This is not a dispute over a contract... .this is ultimately about your child.  How we spend our money is ultimately a statement of our values.  I would encourage you to thoughtfully consider if your values and spending patterns/plans in this matter are aligned.

Lawyers are a necessary evil... .if you are in a gunfight... .you better have a gun... .a good one.  Otherwise... .don't get in a gun fight.

It is possible to get in a gunfight, where everyone else has .45s and you get lucky with a homemade .22 ?... .that is possible and others have done it.  And it's understandable to not want another gun given the last .45 you purchased... .ended up loaded with blanks.

Hope that analogy works.

Whatever you choose... .I encourage being deliberate about taking time to decide.  

FF

[FamilyLaw]

Thunderstruck, call you State Bar Association. Generally speaking it is a violation of professional ethics to hold your property - the CE you paid for - hostage for the attorney's bill. I'd also find out if the Bar has a fee arbitration program so that you can get their help to negotiate the attorney's fees you asked the lawyer not to expend. I'd also see if they can discuss with the lawyer why it took so long without the attorney raising holy hell with the court. In my state, at least, the Bar would have raked me naked backwards and forwards over the coals.

[flourdust]

Thinking about you, Thunderstruck. How's it going?

[Thunderstruck]

Thank you for thinking of me!

Well, the CE told my DH that she wanted to talk to him. It took him about a week before he finally got ahold of her. She wanted to apologize to him. She said "this isn't how I like to do business" and apologized for basically everything we've had to go through. She said she was in her own high conflict divorce and she had a stalker. Blah blah. She said that in addition to the report she would also like to refund most of our money.

This was just before hurricane Irma, which affected our area. The CE asked for my DH to send her an updated file with all the Our Family Wizard emails and what our hurricane plan was with SD. We sent all that plus the most recent court filing from uBPDbm. We haven't heard from her since. Part of that time our area was without power, so that is understandable, but now it's time to start bugging her again.

[flourdust]

So she didn't give you the report, asked for even more documents, and you just gave them to her?

Ok, then. Check back in with us in 2019 or so. I'm sure the report will be very close to done then.

[formflier]

 
I would look into ethical guidelines for the "CE industry".

I know nothing about this industry... but most groups have guidelines. 

I can't imagine it being ok to be in the midst of your own personal blowup and trying to operate professionally in the same area... .at the same time.

You can see why... .the results speak for themselves.

Switching gears... .a natural disaster like this really sucks... .it affects everything.  My wife's BPD started after one in 2009 (flood forced us from our farm for about 6 months).

Honestly... .I would assume you will never hear from her again.  Get another CE.  If she pops up and presents one... .take it and make your decision then.

She is/was obviously on the edge.  She very likely has completely different priorities in life now... .based on the hurricane.

Where do you think your CE will show up in her priorities?

She is looking out for her interests... .I would recommend you look out for yours.

FF

[ForeverDad]

She said that in addition to the report she would also like to refund most of our money.

Okay... .what's stopping her?

[Nope]

Your CE is as erratic and low functioning as SD's uBPDm.

Can you get a copy of the so-called "working copy"? Supposedly she gave one to your L, right?