What Tools Do you Use When You See Them to Protect Yourself?

[Peacefromwithin]

What tools do you use to protect yourself when you are with your pwBPD/NPD?

How do you stay aware in the moment to look out for manipulative tactics, etc?

How do you stay strong?

What responses do you use when you're not comfortable with questions asked, or a conversation topic?

Do you smile calmly with love and just go with the crazy flow, or do you send out non verbal messages of strength and armor?

How do you stay aware of when they're being all nicey-nice, to pull you in, only to be punched and stabbed in the back with a manipulative question or comment?

How do you not become the puddle you were when you were a child around these crazy people?

How do you balance boundaries and limits, with being kind, loving and tolerant?

How do you take care of yourself versus staying with them longer than you want to, so you don't hurt their feelings?

How do you deal with the absolute emotional drain of energy from every single cell of your being (yes I know that sounds dramatic but until you've dealt with it and what it feels like, don't judge)

How do you avoid babbling like a nervous child when they do that manipulative thing of reeling you in with niceness, and then coldly and harshly asking a question, then leaving that extremely dark gray iciness hanging in the air, in which you know that you had better tell them everything they want to know, or else you will have to deal with their wrath.

How do you not regress and become that child again around the pwBPD/NPD in which everything you've worked your a## off for in therapy goes right out the freaking window... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi Peacefromwithin

I want so badly to answer all your questions but I feel that each one actually deserves a full answer. How would you feel if we just dealt with a few at a time?

What tools do you use to protect yourself when you are with your pwBPD/NPD?

How do you stay aware in the moment to look out for manipulative tactics, etc?

How do you stay strong?

What responses do you use when you're not comfortable with questions asked, or a conversation topic?

Boundaries and limits help protect you. LBJ once said to me that boundaries are 6 feet thick concrete and always come with consequences. It's the big stuff so for me it'd be "you won't hit me", "you won't steal from me". My DS26 is a quiet BPD so he doesn't rage - he doesn't steal any more because he works and has learnt to manage his finances.  My limits are the day to day stuff and are flexible so it's like getting weekly rent, reasonably tidy around shared areas etc. I personally protect myself from not asking questions about his friends, how he spends his time, where he goes etc - I leave him to his life. I focus on my life.

I prepare for difficult conversations. Know what I'm going to say and how I'm going to say it. I don't get distracted by his come backs. Stay focussed and will repeat myself using short statements.

I stay strong by posting often, helping others that I think I can help, work on my skills when I can. This gives me confidence and I don't dither as much, I've still got a lot farther to go! I've avoided putting up his rent for 6 weeks!

I just say "oh". This is when I'm really stumped or completely shocked. I usually try to use SET but sometimes I don't get past "oh". On those occasions when I think it could have gone better I try and do a re-do the following day.

Has this helped any?

I know you've had a lot of problems with both your mom and sister. What's going on at the moment with you?

Hugs

LP

[Peacefromwithin]

Hi Peacefromwithin

I want so badly to answer all your questions but I feel that each one actually deserves a full answer. How would you feel if we just dealt with a few at a time?

That's fine. :-) I don't mind. I know I asked a lot of questions. Thank you.

Boundaries and limits help protect you. LBJ once said to me that boundaries are 6 feet thick concrete and always come with consequences. It's the big stuff so for me it'd be "you won't hit me", "you won't steal from me". My DS26 is a quiet BPD so he doesn't rage - he doesn't steal any more because he works and has learnt to manage his finances.  My limits are the day to day stuff and are flexible so it's like getting weekly rent, reasonably tidy around shared areas etc. I personally protect myself from not asking questions about his friends, how he spends his time, where he goes etc - I leave him to his life. I focus on my life.

What does LBJ stand for? Thank you for sharing how you set boundaries with the BPDs in your life. I like how you say that you focus on your life.  

I prepare for difficult conversations. Know what I'm going to say and how I'm going to say it. I don't get distracted by his come backs. Stay focussed and will repeat myself using short statements.

This is extremely helpful and something I need to do. My husband taught me years ago about using short statements and repeating them. It's just that my uBPD/NPD mother and sister are really good at getting information out of me. They use various tactics. First they try to be all nicey-nice. Then they innocently start to ask questions to get info out of me. If that doesn't work, mom will rage and then I answer out of sheer terror and fear. If that doesn't work for my sister, she will ask a question in her ___y arrogant tone of voice and then in icy-cold silence like the feeling you get from a black and white spooky movie, she will wait for me to babble nervously and tell her what she wants. I just become a puddle around them and I HATE it.

I stay strong by posting often, helping others that I think I can help, work on my skills when I can. This gives me confidence and I don't dither as much, I've still got a lot farther to go! I've avoided putting up his rent for 6 weeks!

I try to post on here to help others. A few minutes ago, I shared my own experience in reply to someone's post but I feel triggered from the memories I shared.

I just say "oh". This is when I'm really stumped or completely shocked. I usually try to use SET but sometimes I don't get past "oh". On those occasions when I think it could have gone better I try and do a re-do the following day.

That's an interesting tool. I never thought of that. "Oh." I like the simplicity in that. I recall someone once telling me he uses "that's interesting" sometimes. Something factual and that does not show any emotion or that you're taking their bait.

Has this helped any?

Yes, thank you. It's as if everything I've learned has been completely overtaken by fear.

I know you've had a lot of problems with both your mom and sister. What's going on at the moment with you?

I have a very bad feeling about an upcoming visit with them. More to do with my sister than my mother, but still. Something isn't sitting right in my gut.

And I am completely and utterly confused because I am in a strict 12-step program. I am "recovered" and work hard at it every day. However, I'm told to stop trying to be a saint and stop apologizing for every little thing. I'm finding that I am putting myself under a very large microscope and looking at my behavior too much and beating myself up over it. I really didn't cause that much harm to others when I was in my addiction. Certainly not to my family members, although they'd think otherwise. So I only owe a "living amends" to them--meaning, be kind, loving, and tolerant when I'm with them. Give them love. Make them feel good about themselves. Make the visit about them.

This is just majorily causing me a nervous breakdown over here, because my whole entire life it's been about them. True I used to bother my uBPD/NPD sister a lot when I was younger to solve my problems, but that's because I was in a tremendous amount of emotional pain from not having a real mother to actually raise me normally. I did apologize for that, but I could see it in her eyes that she's going to use that apology as leverage to make me grovel and continue to be her doormat going forward. I should never have apologized to her. She's too sick. My family is very sick. They don't see it.

And then the Christian thing of being loving and forgiving just adds to my angst and tension about the confusion of this all. If they were normal people, that's different. Making amends to my husband, for example, was amazing and beautiful and even if he didn't respond as well as he did, that wouldn't have mattered. But dealing with sick, personality disordered family members with principles of a 12 step program is majorily screwing with my head and I am losing my mind.

My T reminded me that you don't make amends at the expense of yourself. If it'd harm others, that includes yourself. But my 12-step friends who are also recovered, do not agree. They want me to visit with them, and be a good daughter and a good sister. I never hurt them. I was a good kid. I was just acting out sometimes at all the craziness and psychoticness of their abuse and behavior.

T doesn't think I'm in a good frame of mind to see them. My 12-step friends think I should see them, and be a good daughter and sister, like I wrote, and just let however they act or whatever they say go in one ear and out the other. I've done that before, successfully. But something is sitting in my gut about my uBPD/NPD sister that I'm not feeling very good about.

I just don't know what to do. My 12-step program keeps the focus on "our" behavior and "our" thinking. Yes I know I used to think and act differently, due to all the fear and anxiety and depression that I've had since an early age. I don't blame them for my addiction, either. But just how much turning the other cheek and being treated like a doormat from personality disordered sick people am I supposed to put up with? They love to "punish" me, for things they see as deserving punishment, when it doesn't. I should've gone no contact 20 years ago when the psychologist said to. I'm so sick and tired of their mind f*ck. And the only people who see it, is ME because they're really good at putting on an act around others.

I'm in a bad place right now and I don't know what I did wrong to get here. I was doing so well. I was helping others on this board. My anxiety was night and day compared to how it used to be on boards like this. I saw things so clearly. But now my head is just spinning.

Hugs

LP

Thank you for the  , those are always appreciative. I view them as an electronic "it's going to be okay" statement.

[Lollypop]

Hi peacefromwithin

I love your name, a good choice as we all strive for the serenity and peace we so deserve. It's wonderful to hear that you've a Therapist and solid support from your recovery group. I can see how confusing it is for you though with contradictory advice from your support network and then throwing the very real anxiety of the forthcoming visit. I'm sure I'd feel exactly the same. It's so very hard to see clearly and work out the best thing to do for ourselves.

Have you noticed how the majority of posts here are about the BPD in our life rather than the focus being on us? You're doing amazingly well taking better care of yourself and your own well-being. This is absolutely critical for us all. We are no help to anybody if we aren't well ourselves.

T doesn't think I'm in a good frame of mind to see them. My 12-step friends think I should see them, and be a good daughter and sister... .and just let however they act or whatever they say go in one ear and out the other. I've done that before, successfully. But something is sitting in my gut about my uBPD/NPD sister that I'm not feeling very good about.

Your Therapist seems to have been listening to you and your concerns. Do you have a sponsor at the recovery group as I wonder if they can help resolve the issue with the need of the 12 step programme for "living amends" at this particular time?  You've taken responsibility for yourself and achieved so much within the programme and I really admire you. It takes courage, resilience and persistence to achieve what you've achieved.

Is there a specific reason for the visit?

When are they due to visit and are they intending to stay with you?

LP

[Mutt]

Hi Peacefromwithin,

But my 12-step friends who are also recovered, do not agree. They want me to visit with them, and be a good daughter and a good sister.

My 12-step friends think I should see them, and be a good daughter and sister, like I wrote, and just let however they act or whatever they say go in one ear and out the other.

Are your 12-step friends familiar with BPD? Do they have a loved one with BPD in their lives?

[Peacefromwithin]

Hi Peacefromwithin,

Hi Mutt! Thank you for that warm welcome.  

Are your 12-step friends familiar with BPD? Do they have a loved one with BPD in their lives?

Hey. How'd you do that? You broke my fear. I cracked a smile for the first time in days. No. No they don't. They are not familiar with BPD. They don't have loved ones with BPD in their lives. Wow. Just--wow! This is going to be my answer to one of my close 12-step friends who wants me to make an amends to a family member with BPD who I do not owe an amends to. She just wants the relationship fixed in a Christian sense, but she does not understand the situation and it was messing with my mind. It it wasn't for my T, and my now-retired previous T, I don't want to think about how things would've gone down. They both saved my sanity in this respect with dealing with the pwBPD.

For a while, it was a bit of a power struggle between my stubborn, opinionated sponsor (I say that with love, though, as she helped me immensely) and my T. Fortunately my T has in the past reminded me that these people are NOT psychology specialists. Unfortunately, many people in my 12-step program talk negatively about therapists. So it gets all confused in my brain.

I am going to write your questions on an index card and put it in my purse to remind myself. I'm also going to add the quote you used on your avatar, "You are stronger than you think." I've known since I was little that there was a strong person inside of me just dying to show herself. I let her out sometimes but I need to do it much, much more.

I was told you don't make amends to people who abused you. I think they mean overt sexual abuse but BPD/NPD abuse is harmful too. I need to think of my own well-being too here, no? pwBPD/NPD do not react to love and kindness the way normal people do.

Thank you so much.  

I see you're another retired moderator for the board? Thank you for your service, time, and wisdom to all us suffering souls trying to have some peace. 

[Mutt]

I use positive coping statements when I get anxious "You are stronger than you think" "This feels bad, it is a normal body reaction.  It will pass" I like them because they work for me, sometimes I underestimate my abilities and over estimate my anxiety. 

I agree with you, I think that you 12 step friends have their hearts in the right place, I don't think that they can really connect with what you're going through.

Think of it this way, you don't really know what divorce feels like unless you go through it, people can sympathize with you but those people that have gone through divorce, get it. I think that it's same thing with BPD, you're stuck in your own world and people that don't have a pwBPD in their lives don't see it, BPD is an invisible disorder, the behaviors are directed at the people closest to them.

You can have compassion with boundaries, if you feel like you need to self protect, then do what you're comfortable with, one of the most useful tools that I learned here is JADE, don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain to a pwBPD because it makes you a target for conflict. I apply the same tools with non's I don't JADE, I don't have to explain my boundaries, I'm not obligated. I hope that helps too  

[Peacefromwithin]

Hi peacefromwithin

I love your name, a good choice as we all strive for the serenity and peace we so deserve. It's wonderful to hear that you've a Therapist and solid support from your recovery group. I can see how confusing it is for you though with contradictory advice from your support network and then throwing the very real anxiety of the forthcoming visit. I'm sure I'd feel exactly the same. It's so very hard to see clearly and work out the best thing to do for ourselves.

Thanks!   I love your name and avatar, too! It's adorable!

Yes my entire life all I've ever wanted is a smidget of serenity and peace. My escape as a child was to nap, because the only time I felt a smidge of peace was if I was asleep with my stuffed animals. One of the lines and promises in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous is, "We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace". Isn't that beautiful? I think it's what every child of a parent with BPD wants. Just a little peace. And my head knows that peace truly comes from within, and not from anywhere or anything without. But it's just taking a long time for my heart to catch on to that.

I do trust my T over the people in my support group, since he is the mental health professional and will not steer me wrong, ever, even if I may at times make him out to be the bad guy if I get into my stubborn ways. I know if he tells me not to do something, I should do it. Sometimes it is so hard to deprogram myself from my family's brainwashing, but lately I've had a lot more success with being able to listen to T over listening to my old fears. I was even able to verbalize to him recently that it's not that I don't want to do what he suggests, but it's that my fear reactions are still automatic and programmed. I think he may have seen that, anyway, but it was really cool for me to say it out loud.

Have you noticed how the majority of posts here are about the BPD in our life rather than the focus being on us? You're doing amazingly well taking better care of yourself and your own well-being. This is absolutely critical for us all. We are no help to anybody if we aren't well ourselves.

Yes... .I do notice that. We're all looking for solutions. We aren't allowing ourselves to take care of ourselves, though. I didn't realize that I was doing well taking care of myself? Hmm. I really appreciate your saying that. So I have nothing to feel guilty about if I don't see my family when I'm in town. It's self-care, not being a bad daughter/sister. Thank you for helping me see that. I certainly am no help to my spouse if I don't take care of myself. And he deserves a mentally healthy wife. The stress my family put on me, effected him very much over the years and that wasn't fair.

Your Therapist seems to have been listening to you and your concerns. Do you have a sponsor at the recovery group as I wonder if they can help resolve the issue with the need of the 12 step programme for "living amends" at this particular time?  You've taken responsibility for yourself and achieved so much within the programme and I really admire you. It takes courage, resilience and persistence to achieve what you've achieved.

Yes he does. He's looking out for my well-being. But I start to take "you're not in the right frame of mind to see them" as "you suck at therapy, you're not where you should be, it's your fault, and if something happens to either parent before you see them, it's on your shoulders because you didn't work hard enough in therapy to be able to deal with seeing them."

Yes, I do have a sponsor and we've talked about living amends, as that's been the way she's guided me to deal with my family. T says under no circumstances do I make direct amends to any of them. I made a little light apology to one sibling, but I'm even regretting that a little because I can sense her viewing it as a weakness, and using it against me. When you deal with pwBPD, they're the types to rub salt into your wounds and kick you while you're down. I never did anything specific that I owe an amends for; just a general way of being, because I had trouble dealing with stress because I had no coping skills (none of us did).

Thank you for saying what you did about my having courage and resilience, and persistence. It is hard to accept the compliment but it feels really good to read it. That made me smile. Hey that's two smiles for today, . The work I did--looking within--was the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life, because I had to put blinders on regarding everyone else's behaviors. And because I was absolutely full of self-hate and self-loathing, due to all the childhood brainwashing from my BPD/NPD family. I see now while writing this to you, that those self-hate and self-loathing feelings were LIES. I was taught in my strict 12-step program to look for the lies that I told others and that I told myself. I rarely lied to others. But boy did I often lie to myself, because I was believing sick people's lies as truths.

It was by far the most rewarding work I've ever done. I've grown a lot. I just have to figure out a healthy balance of the self-examination vs. other people's behaviors, so I stop beating myself up over every little thing now. Self-awareness is a beautiful gift, but it can also be a curse!  But I must also always remember that the pwBPD/NPD in my life will not change, just because I've changed. And often times, when we get healthy, they cannot handle it and get worse. We in 12-step call it "disturbing the apple cart".  They want me to always fit into their box they put me in, so that they feel better about themselves. I've even lost friends as I got well, but I see it as their not being able to handle me not being in the box they put me in, in order for them to feel better about themselves. I will not let anyone put me in a box anymore. And if people still have me in a box they had me in the past, I do not need to keep them in my life and allow them to harm me like that.

Is there a specific reason for the visit?

They know I'm going to be near their town for a wedding. Plus this year is a milestone anniversary for my parents.

When are they due to visit and are they intending to stay with you?

Toward the end of the summer/beginning fall. I could stay with them but I'm choosing not to. Sorry for the vagueness but I'm trying to protect my anonymity just in case there's a family member lurking on here, because I once made the mistake of telling a relative that I think my parents and siblings have BPD/NPD during a smear campaign against me. I wouldn't put it past them to have someone do detective work to find me on a board like this, to use as ammunition against me. I know that sounds paranoid on the surface, but they've done stuff like that in the past.

[Peacefromwithin]

I use positive coping statements when I get anxious "You are stronger than you think" "This feels bad, it is a normal body reaction.  It will pass" I like them because they work for me, sometimes I underestimate my abilities and over estimate my anxiety.

 

That is such a great idea! I'd like to get into that habit. Is there a list of positive coping statements you use? Sometimes I listen to Joel Osteen for positive statements like that, but I find him a little too pop-psychology-unrealistic-feel-goodish.

I agree with you, I think that you 12 step friends have their hearts in the right place, I don't think that they can really connect with what you're going through.

I think T has been trying to say this, but it doesn't get through because of the confused messages between him and them, and my desperately wanting to do therapy well and do 12-step well. This really helped a lot to read.

Think of it this way, you don't really know what divorce feels like unless you go through it, people can sympathize with you but those people that have gone through divorce, get it. I think that it's same thing with BPD, you're stuck in your own world and people that don't have a pwBPD in their lives don't see it, BPD is an invisible disorder, the behaviors are directed at the people closest to them.

Oh wow this example helped immensely!  I also think there's just a common practice of treating the person in a 12-step person the same exact way. I remember making one of my former sponsors extremely frustrated because my self-seeking behaviors were internalized. She was basically screaming at me, "What did you DO?" "How did you ACT OUT?" I didn't really act out. I acted IN. She didn't understand, because that wasn't her experience. She hit other children, bit them, threw their books on the floor. Me? I stood there like a deer in headlights and just internalized it all. I don't think I am a common person in the rooms. I did act out sometimes as an adult when I couldn't take it anymore, but I didn't act out in childhood and not with family members. Although my family certainly would be the first to say I was "bad". But I wasn't bad. I was a normal child. It's hard to explain, and I thank my previous T and my current T for that understanding.

You can have compassion with boundaries, if you feel like you need to self protect, then do what you're comfortable with, one of the most useful tools that I learned here is JADE, don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain to a pwBPD because it makes you a target for conflict. I apply the same tools with non's I don't JADE, I don't have to explain my boundaries, I'm not obligated. I hope that helps too  

Thank you for adding another tool! I plan on going through all of posts and re-reading all the tools you all have been so kind to post links to for me.

I feel stronger just reading your replies today.   I CAN give myself permission to have boundaries and I don't have to explain them to anyone. I have a right to my own decisions, thoughts, personal life, actions, and boundaries. I just had the disgusting memory of one time my sister with uBPD/NPD called on my birthday. She was being all nicey-nice, which made me happy, she got me where she wanted, and then BAM! she shot in with her harsh, aggressive questioning tactics asking me what I talk about in therapy, and putting me in such fear that I babbled the answer. She will NOT ever get away with that again.

[Lollypop]

Hi Peace

Your therapy is your business and nobody else's. 

It's OK to say [eye contact] "I want to say that I really do appreciate that you're interested in my therapy and my well-being.  Actually, I'd like to share with you that I feel very uncomfortable talking about it so let's talk about something else... .[genuine warm smile, hold that gaze]... .

Then you decide if you want to stay with them in conversation or move on from it at any point.

how are you doing, I heard that you xxxxx, ?
I'm just popping to the bathroom, see you in a bit.

If they delve further into your therapy, you simply repeat yourself (verbatim) and slowly walk away with shoulders back and head held high.

Also, just saying, only post when you want to post. You are only responsible for yourself, if you find yourself being triggered then that's not good for your own well-being. It's all OK.

LP.

PS.  I've a labradoodle and irish soft coated wheaten terrier.

[Peacefromwithin]

Hi Peace

Your therapy is your business and nobody else's. 

Boy I wish I could engrave that statement into my brain. I wrote it on the inside cover of my "Boundaries" book. I was never allowed to have anything private in my life from my uBPD/NPD mother or uBPD sister. I referred to it as being "emotionally raped". But your statement is another I will add to my list. My business is MY business. Just because it'll make them angry if I don't tell them what they want here, (or if I don't tell a married-into-the-family spouse who they used to try to get info from me... .) does not mean I have to tell them.

It's OK to say [eye contact] "I want to say that I really do appreciate that you're interested in my therapy and my well-being.  Actually, I'd like to share with you that I feel very uncomfortable talking about it so let's talk about something else... .[genuine warm smile, hold that gaze]... .

Wow.   I don't know if I could do that. Have you done this with a pwBPD? Does it work? They don't get angry that you're actually sharing YOUR feelings, and expect them to respect YOUR feelings? I don't know... .

Then you decide if you want to stay with them in conversation or move on from it at any point.

I did recently start doing this on the phone with them, instead of letting them just steamroller over me during conversations.

how are you doing, I heard that you xxxxx, ?
I'm just popping to the bathroom, see you in a bit.

The bathroom or getting something to drink always make great outs, don't they? 

If they delve further into your therapy, you simply repeat yourself (verbatim) and slowly walk away with shoulders back and head held high.

I love this! They don't know how to handle me when I actually don't cave to their raging manipulative behaviors. Last time I saw them, I was able to do this and it felt wonderful. I felt like there was a steel barrier around me that they couldn't penetrate.

PS.  I've a labradoodle and irish soft coated wheaten terrier.

I love dogs! Yesterday I met the sweetest labradoodle. Dogs are so loving and they live in the moment.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi Peace

I felt like there was a steel barrier around me that they couldn't penetrate.

Exactly. It's so much fun isn't it!   

They don't get angry that you're actually sharing YOUR feelings, and expect them to respect YOUR feelings?

My DS won't get angry about me sharing my feelings, he'd maybe get frustrated and definitely emotional by it though.  Putting up that steel barrier around me, not doing a dance around his feelings, not walking on eggshells but only demonstrating behaviours that I would like to see in him.  Respectful to him always. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my statement. It shows confidence, acknowledgement of their interest, respectful to them and demanding some respect back (there's no expectation to respect me - it's a demand to respect me and my feelings).

You ignore my demand because you aren't listening then you leave me with no choice but to repeat myself. 

You ignore me again, then politely and respectfully leave.

No justification, no arguing, no defence, no explanation.  No JADE.

"I want to say that I really do appreciate that you're interested in my therapy and my well-being.  Actually, I'd like to share with you that I feel very uncomfortable talking about it so let's talk about something else... .[genuine warm smile, hold that gaze]... .

Maybe you could try practising it with your H and see how you feel saying it.

Hugs

LP

[Peacefromwithin]

Hi Lollypop,

My apologies for not replying sooner. Sometimes on this website I read new responses but if I don't reply right away, I lose where they were.

I found your explanation very helpful of how to avoid JADE. I like the idea of calmly but assertively saying that something makes me uncomfortable. The only problem with that, is that the pwBPD in my life wouldn't give a crap if I said that a question they asked me made me uncomfortable. That sort of comment would make them very angry, because how dare I express myself.

My T taught me the tool of "deflection" and we roll played it. I love it! So I'm going to use that.