Married 26 years

[Learn each day]

I don't know where to begin. My husband and I have been married for 26 years and in marriage counseling for 18 months. He was always very extreme and I had low self esteem. Perfect combination mbination right? About a year after our marriage we both became Christians and it really helped. There were still blow ups of course but it seemed like he was really trying. I already had a child and we had 4 more. He loves our kids when they are little then seems to resent them when they are old enough to develop interest outside of him. For the last 15 or so years things got progressively worse. More and more blow ups. He never hit me but would the kids sometimes. I truly believe in discipline but not the raging fits he would throw. Things really came to a head 18 months ago. I took my last 2 kids at home and left. He was so shocked that we were unhappy. It took many people talking with home for him to realize that what he was doing was abuse. My daughter really suffered. I was devastated when I took her to counseling and listened to her fears. She was 14 at the time. She had been having the same recurring nightmares for a couple of years and could hardly sleep. Our counselor feels she has a form of ptsd. She is doing so much better now. We have (including my husband) all been seeing a Christian counselor for the past 18 months. She has been helping me understand that it's ok to stand up for myself and my kids. It sounds so dumb when I say it out loud. To admit that someone actually had to teach me something so basic but decades of fear and uncertainty really makes you question what is normal. Anyway - My husband really threw himself into counseling and she helped him understand that his childhood brought him many injuries (his father was an abusive alcoholic) and that he was truly harming his family. He seemed so much better that after 6 months the kids and I moved back in. Things were good again for about 6 months hut have been steadily getting worse again. He constantly accuses me of putting the kids before him. Says I don't care about him anymore. He has told our kids that he wishes they weren't born. He is angry now if I do anything that doesn't include him if he is home. Our counselor now feels that he has BPD. She hasn't shared that with him yet but is helping me to understand. I have been reading the Stop Walking on Eggshells book and can't believe how dead on it is! It is like reading about my life. I am working so hard on trying to balance what is ok for me and the kids, what is biblical and what is ok for my husband. It is beginning to feel like we need to leave again. I just know that we can't bounce in and out again. If we leave again it will be for good so I am trying to be so careful with this decision.

[Mutt]

Hi Learn each day,

It sounds so dumb when I say it out loud. To admit that someone actually had to teach me something so basic but decades of fear and uncertainty really makes you question what is normal

That line about uncertainty conjured old memories of my exuBPDw.

I'd like to welcome you to the group, I'm glad that you've found us there is hope.

26 years is a long history, I can understand how difficult that would be not knowing that it could BPD all these years. We're not doctors and can't diagnose, only a professional can do that! What we can look at are borderline personality traits.

I'd suggest to read as much as you can about BPD, it will do a couple of things for you, it will normalize the disorder and you can learn to depersonalize the behaviours, there's a reason why he behaves the way that he does, it's not personal to you.

You said that he has low self esteem, pwBPD have low self esteem, feel low self worth, self loath and are hyper critical with themselves, I'd like to think that as critical and rigid as my exuBPDw is towards me, that represents a window for me to get a sense of what her internal dialogue is, can you imagine being as hyper critical with yourself as a pwBPD. There are some communication tools on the staying board that can help you, a pwBPD need a lot of validation, feelings are facts to a pwBPD whereas feelings are followed by facts for non's, validate his feelings first and package your truth behind that.

Thinking about separation can be difficult, there's rush at the moment, I just want to let you know that you're not alone, we'll walk with you through this. This is a place where we can share our thoughts and feelings openly without being judged or invalidate for having thoughts thoughts and feelings.

[Learn each day]

Thank you Mutt.

It does help to read these posts. I question so often if I have any idea of what "normal" is anymore.

He had a fit Saturday because I had to leave to drop the dog of to be groomed. He couldn't believe that I would take time away from him to do something's my. I stood my ground and tried to hold my boundaries but later question if I am being selfish. So silly.

He hates any time I invest in our kids or my jobs or church. Anything that takes my attention from him. He wants sex at least 3 times a week and thinks he should be able to do anything he wants sexually with me - even if I'm uncomfortable with it. Anything that doesn't fall in line with these rules men's I don't care about him. I'm not willing to go back to this way of living.

He seems unwilling to continue counseling unless I meet these demands. I am trying to give him a little more time but have been clear my feelings.

So sad about it all. This sharing really helps.

[formflier]

Has he expressed these things to the counselor?

Is he doing counseling by himself as well as with you?

What are your counselors credentials?

FF

[Learn each day]

Yes he has expressed these things to our counselor.

Yes he goes to individual counseling with the same counselor.

We each go individually and again together.

Our counselor has said that my husband has hit a point where he doesn't appear to want to change. She has shared with me that she really wants me to hold my ground and stay firm about my needs and our children's' needs. That he is beginning to be abusive again. She said s very kind to my husband but also very clear with him about what love should look like. She has been suspecting that he is BPD lately. I can't remember what her credentials are but feel very comfortable with her. My husband did as well for unite awhile but now that he seems to be reverting to his old ways he is very angry towards her and accuses her of being on "my side".

All very frustrating.

[formflier]

Do you guys use the Bible in counseling? 

I am devout Christian and have experienced secular and Christian counseling.

My first reaction is to listen to your husband only after he reads and presents the Biblical principal he wants to talk about and you guys pray for the Holy Spirit to help guide you.

Then listen.  Ask how he sees a passage of scripture... .vice asking what he thinks.  Ask how the scripture informs his thinking.

Likely best to discuss this with counselor before implementing.

What good can come of a "you have to give me the sex I want" conversation without reading about love being patient... .kind... .etc.

Thoughts?

FF

[Learn each day]

 Yes. I feel so blessed that our counselor is a Christian as well. She has worked with him for over a year on what love looks like through Christ. We have gone over 1 Corinthians 13 so many times.  He is so hateful and unloving to our children. He justifies that behavior with the Old Testament. Whenever we try and focus on scripture about what love really is and how Christ loves us, he just wants to go back to scriptIre  that justifies a more vengeful outlook. He feels that everything is my fault because I am not submissive enough.  So much of it is my own fault. I definitely developed codependent tendencies. Anytime I would try and think of my own needs I would feel that I was being selfish. I always assumed that a good Christian wife would give everything. I never held him accountable for any of his actions.  I would just pray and ask God to help give me a loving and forgiving spirit.  Eventually I feel that God showed me through scripture and through my children that I was really confusing what being a Christian wife is.  I was actually helping him be a worse and worse Christian husband and father as time went on by allowing his bad behavior.

 Last year when I left he completely crumbled. He sought God with his whole heart. He fully embraced everything scripture had to say about what love is.   After six months of Christian counseling apart and together the children and I moved back home.   He is now back to his old ways of trying to use scripture as a weapon against us.  Three of our sons are grown man. We still have a teenage son and a teenage daughter at home. When he gets in an argument with our grown sons now they try to disengage but he feels so triggered and so justified in his anger that he will end up  asking them to step outside and fight. So Far there has been no physical violence since we have been back but I feel my heart and spirit crumbling daily.

[Learn each day]

 I guess if I am brutally honest (and I am ashamed to admit this) we have stopped studying the Bible together.  I still study myself individually. I guess I have stopped initiating us studying together because it always and with an argument. Even when we pray first. On a very rare occasion he will seem  moved. But usually he just wants to look at  whatever sections of scripture he feels will support his opinions.  For example;  he will completely skip the sections of loving your wife as Christ loves the church but focus on the marriage bed being undefiled. He will use that to try to prove that he should be able to do whatever he wants to me in bed.  I guess that I have grown to feel that my spirit can barely take this form of Bible study with him.  I guess I really need to give this more prayer and consider trying to study with him again. 

 In counseling we will talk about white loving scripture looks like to each other but he always focuses on what he thinks it should mean for me instead of himself.

[formflier]

I guess if I am brutally honest (and I am ashamed to admit this) we have stopped studying the Bible together. 

OK... .again... .I'm just putting out ideas here. 

Consider this.

You are more than willing to listen to him "lead" the family, as a Christian head of household should.  So, in his leading he will bring forth an idea.  Starting with the Biblical basis and present what that looks like.

You listen... .perhaps ask clarifying questions... .then you are off to study.

You come back with questions, he studies Bible and gives his answers to your questions as asked... .not as he wanted you to ask.

So... .he "goes old testament".  You ask... "How does Christ's death and resurrection inform your leading in this matter... "

fictional... but likely response

Blah blah blah it doesn't matter... the Bible says this, therefore you do this... no further discussion blah blah blah my wife needs to submit.

At this point... .you are really out of this.  I would leave this up to pastors and the counselor. 

   

My wife has a "holier than thou streak" in her... .very very tough.  We have 8 kids.  She wants to "obey" the Bible and "live a perfect life"

We used to go round and round about this... .  I have a much easier go of it than you do, because a strict Biblical reading would say that if your husband asks you to do something, you should do it... .unless he is asking you to sin.

I use a "strict reading" to help stabilize my family, even though I don't personally believe such a strict interpretation.  When dealing with pwBPD you need to be "pragmatic".  Find a pathway to stability.

Please google Leslie Vernick.  She strikes me as a wise Christian Counselor.  Most of her readers tend to be women in your situation.  I don't want to give blanket approval to "everything" she says... .but it all should be food for thought and prayer.

More later.

Oh... .can you pick a recent "rage" and give a detailed he said she said starting before the rage.  I have an idea of what is going on... .but don't want to assume. 

FF 

[Learn each day]

 I will post some examples of his more recent blowups. Before our separation last year I would definitely call his blowups true rages. He never hit me but he would hit the kids and anger. He used to bend over and get right in my face and spit as he screamed.  Since our separation last year and reconciliation he doesn't really rage the way he used to. Now it feels like there is a general constant underlying anger. He gets very mad and yells but doesn't really rage the way he use to. He will claim that he isn't mad but you can clearly tell he is.

2 weeks ago:
Gary started talking about disciplining children at his moms house. The people there were him, me, his mom, Alden(22 y/o son), Ethan(16 y/o son), Gracie(15 y/o daughter) and Haley(16 y/o great niece).  Gary started out joking but then quickly got mad. He was talking about how children used to be spanked and smacked in the mouth and beat him with a switch. He was talking about how his mother used to smack him in the mouth and how his grandmother used to use a switch on him. He looked around the room and said none of you kids have ever gotten a switch. Alden disagreed with him. Alden wasn't mad. He was even kind of laughing about it. He started telling him about a time that Gary made him go out to the tree that they named old Bessie and break a stick off of it. He said that he trimmed the bark off and whipped him with it. Alden wasn't mad he was just telling him that it happened. Gary got really mad and started saying that Alden was a liar. He was saying that Alden was just trying to make him look bad.  I'm not sure why he was so concerned about that making him look bad. He has done so much worse than that in the past.  Neither of them seemed to be able to just drop it. Gary said that Alden wasn't allowed to drive our old van anymore. He told handover the key. Alden is still in college and drives our old van. I told him that wasn't fair because all that Alden was doing was telling him something that he believed happened.  He gets very angry when he thinks I'm taking the children's side against him.  One of his biggest accusations against me is that I put the children before him. Gary stood up and was walking and yelling and told Alden that they should go outside and he would get a switch and beat him with it and then see if he really remembers getting beat like that. Alden said "if you beat me with a switch it won't be good"  Gary took that as a definite threat. I tried to explain that no 22-year-old is going to say "sure let's go outside so you can beat me"  it ended up with Gary telling Alden they should go outside and fight each other. Once again the children had to be more mature then him and try to defuse the situation.

Saturday:
Made an appointment to have the dog groomed. Only time they had was Sat 5.

Gary got mad when we left because I made the appt for a Saturday.  He is off work from Saturday morning until Tuesday evening. He doesn't feel like the children or I should ever plan anything on the days that he is home.  It was just to drop her off. They call when she is done. He wanted to know why I didn't make it for another day. I told him that her nails are about to rip up the furniture and that was the soonest they could get her in. We left. He called my phone and left a long complaining message about how I must not ever want to be around him. He told me to call him back and let him know if I want a divorce.

Sunday:
We were going to celebrate Ethan and my sister's birthdays after church at my mom's. Gary hates to celebrate other peoples birthdays. He says it's a waste of time.

After church I was talking to Mitchell (our family minister) about Ethan's birthday and upcoming plans with the youth group. Gary was sitting there. We got to talking about the group chat that a few parents and kids have to discuss times of events and such. Mitchell said "thank you" to me for answering some of the questions the kids asked. I told him no problem.  After he walked away Gary started saying that I was way too involved with the youth group. I told him that answering a few texts hardly make me "over involved". He said that it's Mitchell's job and I shouldn't do it. I told him that I felt that it is all adults calling to help and mentor our youth. (Gary used to feel that way too until he decided I put the kids before him) As a family we used to plan lots of fun events as all of our kids went through our youth group.  He got mad and said that it was just another example of me putting the kids before him. I told him that I didn't understand that because it doesn't effect him at all. It takes none of my time from him. He said he was paying for it. We were pulled up to my mom's by then.  I told him that I wanted to stop the conversation and going to my moms. He said no we would finish it now. I obeyed. He said that he was going to stop paying for any cell phones and then see how I liked it. I told him that I can't understand how me answering a few texts in a group chat when he wasn't even home is me putting him second.

Sorry this is so long.

[formflier]

Before continuing... .read the lesson below.


https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating


You will often hear that "validation" is important.  And it is.  However... .AVOIDING invalidation is much more important than validating.  Figure it takes 10 validations to "get rid" of one "invalidation".  It is really that important.

Understand that reality is important... .FEELINGS are much more important... .much!

I'm going to wrap up this response and let you consider "invalidation".  I also want to challenge you to figure out where you did that in your story.  I noticed it right away... .

FF

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107

Avoiding invalidation is number 1.  This is number 2.

I want you to read the lesson and then read your story again... .

Look for places where your hubby "tossed" an opportunity at you to argue... .not only did you catch it... .bu you tossed it back at him... .

Many times our "arguments" are "invalidating"... .but not always.

You'll just have to play around with your thinking to understand if you avoid invalidation by avoiding arguments... .or if you avoid invalidation... .thereby avoiding most arguments.

So... .tell me about a place where you "picked it up" and invalidated him.

Remember... .many of the things are "counter-intuitive". 

In my relationship, you would have thought that proving that I didn't father a child out of wedlock was a good thing... .right?  Or proving that I didn't sleep with someone... .or that I didn't even know some woman (that I was supposed to be pining after like there is no tomorrow... .)

Remember... .counter-intuitive.

FF

[Learn each day]

 I believe I understand what you are saying. These are things that I have definitely worked on in the past and now. We have had many long talks in counseling and by ourselves about his feelings. I have made plenty of statements like "I understand that you feel that I'm putting the children ahead of you. Please help me understand what that looks like to you".  He will respond with statements like "if you can't see it then I can't explain it to you " Or " if you can't figure it out you are too far gone"  He usually just ends up more angry. Many nights he will try to keep me awake all night long talking. He knows I have to wake up very early in the morning and that it exhausts me.  I will say things like "I understand this is very important to you so it is important to me too. I would love to talk to you about this tomorrow when I have had a good night sleep" If I try to stop talking he will poke me in the shoulder over and over until I am sure to stay awake.

 Do I always say things the right way? No. I have definitely tried a more validating response in the past. I don't always do it the right way I'm sure. I guess it boils down to the fact that I am just so tired so much of the time now.  It feels like too much work anymore to constantly be measuring every word that I say. To be on constant alert to his feelings and moods. To always make sure I'm saying just the right thing.   I know at times that my responses make the situation worse. I pray about it and continually read.

 I may be oversensitive to it as well. So much of our past has been so ugly.   I used to take complete responsibility for all of his emotions and feelings. I'm trying so hard not to do that anymore that it may be making me over sensitive to things.  Sometimes it just feels like the relationship is sucking my very soul out of me.  I have a heart condition, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, and  it causes me to have arrhythmias. I will have runs of ventricular tachycardia and occasionally ventricular fibrillation. I have an implanted cardiac  defibrillator so these aren't as lethal to me as they could be. Some of the more stressful days with my husband feel like they lead to more  arrhythmias.

 Maybe this is all justification on my part for feeling so down. I guess I'm not sure how much harder I'm willing to work which makes me feel so guilty.  I feel so abnormal so many days. Like I may not be able to trust my own feelings. Maybe my heart is already to broken.

[formflier]

     

I need some metrics.  How often does your hubby keep you up at night?  When is the last time this happened?

Perhaps I'm going to push a bit hard here... .I've never give a "run" message before.   I think it may be justified in this case. (pending metrics)

Your husband needs to let you have a good night sleep... .reliably... .or you don't need to live with him.  Period.

I've got several sleep disorders and this was an issue I had to "go to the mat" over.  My wife hasn't woken me up (for BPDish reasons) in over a year. 

Have you had a sleep study done?  Are there any other serious medical things going on, other than the heart issues you have mentioned.


Have you read Dobson "love must be tough"

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Love-Must-Be-Tough-New-Hope-for-Marriages-in-Crisis/5980547?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227006111441&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=53112669648&wl4=pla-75197785968&wl5=9007525&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla_with_promotion&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=5980547&wl13=&veh=sem

If not... please get a copy.  Don't let your hubby see it.

Listen... .big picture stuff here.  I appreciate that you care about and would like to heal your marriage.  Many of us put others first... .marriages first and our health got lost... .somewhere.

I'm going to hush and let you respond so I can quantify this, but... .I and many others have dealt with night fights... .they are no good... .for anyone... .let alone someone with serious medical conditions.

I'll be back later to check on the "metrics"

FF

[Learn each day]

The all night list of complaints doesn't happen very often. Maybe once a month or so. The last time was July 9th - had to check my diary. (I have found that venting to my diary helps since I don't vent at him) I got 15 minutes of sleep that night then went to church. The next day when he wanted to finish "our talk" I tried my best to be accommodating but about 2 hours into it I just burst into tears of exhaustion. I was sobbing. He seemed oddly satisfied that I was so effected. As if he took it to mean that I really cared instead of being on the brink of emotional  collapse and physical exhaustion. It did make him stop though. It is easy for him to stay up because he works an overnight shift 4 nights/week. He has gotten used to

[Learn each day]

He has gotten used to staying up all night and sleeping all day. I can't seem to sleep late. My body wakes me early. Sometimes with a panicked feeling then I can't go back to sleep.

 My heart condition is considered fairly serious. Sometimes after a very emotional day my heart will feel like it can't handle the extra adrenaline and will flip-flop (a term I used before I knew it was ( ventricular tachycardia) for a few days. Here is a better description from Mayo:
www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy/home/ovc-20122102
My condition includes the lethal  arrhythmia described at the end. I have a great  cardiologist who specializes in electrophysiology. My ICD helps ensure that I will get a "kick start" if needed so I don't focus on this much. Besides waking sometimes with a panicked feeling, I am pretty healthy.

 In all fairness to my husband, I am the one who has changed the most. I have worked so hard to give up my codependent tendencies. I have tried to stay loving and respectful while still holding strong to my boundaries.  This seems to be setting him backwards. It is really beginning to feel like the bad old days. This makes me feel so fearful. I've worked so hard at not being scared so these feelings coming back make me think it may be time to do something more drastic. It feels like it is just a matter of time before his threats turn into actions from the past. Things like kicking me out of the car, punching our son when he was a teen, kicking one son out of the house, forcing our car off the road, etc. etc.  when I list these things out loud I feel so much shame. Shame that I put up with that behavior for so long. Shame that I didn't protect my children better.  Maybe it is good for me to look backwards so that I know where I will never be willing to be again. Maybe looking backwards makes me unwilling to give him a shot of the future? Maybe I can't really trust my feelings? I wish I knew... .

[formflier]

In fairness to both of you.  Likely best to focus on behavior since starting to live together again.

Use the distant memories to help you remember how far you have come towards healthy.

I am still concerned about the night issues... .although not as much as Before.

Have you read the Dobson book?

Does your cardiologist know about relationship stress.

Please take some time and look at how far you have come.  There is hope.

FF

[Learn each day]

I haven't read the Dobson book. Hubby and I have bothread Homecoming because at first our counselor thought that he only had abandonment and narcissistic  issues - besides MY obvious codependent issues. I have read Boundaries and Boundaries in Marriage, which REALLY helped me. I am now reading Stop Walking on Eggshells. Wow this book rings so true for me. Much more then anything else I have read. Some of the stories sound like someone got ahold of my diary! I will look up the Dobson book you have suggested.

 Thank you for the advice on not looking at the past and focusing on current behavior. I am truly confused about what to focus on sometimes so that does help.  I guess, for me, his behavior lately has felt like the type of behavior that always led to a huge blowup. The anger is still there but the blowups aren't as violent.

 My cardiologist doesn't really know about any of the emotional stress.   

Thank you.

[formflier]

Dobson book is just for you. 

It will help you learn to communicate your choice about the marriage you are going to lead.  Essentially, the book will help you become "hard to get" again.  It will help your hubby learn to "respect" you again.

More importantly... .it will help you know that you should be respected... .and you should be "hard to get".

And that your hubby may choose to be by himself... .he may choose to be with another woman that is "easy"... .or "let's him do what he wants"

Here is my "big picture" with you.  You are starting to "peek around the corner" at what BPDish behavior is all about.  You are starting to understand that many of the "normal" ways of a relationship are actually harmful or feed a bad dynamic for BPDish types.

This is going to be like learning a foreign language.

Consider the late night stuff.  In any normal marriage... .one spouse freaks out and needs to talk at night.  The other spouse brews a couple cups of tea and they talk the best they can... .  When the spouse in need is able to get some sleep... .the both go to sleep.  Perhaps problem solve more the next day.

Years later the spouse in need still remembers the act of love and the dreary/sleepy eyes of the spouse that stayed up as they trudge off to work... .yawning.

Most "normal" people understand that love is (many times) an action that is uncomfortable... .so they  stay up.

Fast forward to your situation.  I think you understand that your hubby can't be filled up with your love, because he has a hole in the bottom of his "love bucket".  For a lot of his life he has danced, wiggled and done various gymnastics to make it seem to him and others that he is intact and others are at fault for his feelings.

Your job is not to convince him of this.  Your job is to let him deal with his "love bucket".  Or not deal with it.  Respect his choice either way.

Letting him do this is an act of love, even though he won't "feel" that way. 

More later

FF

[Learn each day]

So I finished Stop Walking on Eggshells & Love Must be Tough. The Eggshells book was amazing. I wish I had read it years ago. The Love Must be Tough book was pretty good too but not as relatable for me. I have already been working on my boundaries and infidelity hasn't been an issue thus far. Thank you for the advise about checking out Leslie Vernick. I am reading The Emotionaly Destructive Marriage (about 20% done) and it's pretty good.

No blow ups lately. Just some whining about me not loving him enough anymore but I can live with that for now. Hopefully he is learning what I am no longer willing to put up with for myself or our children - where my boundaries are.
Its all so hard and sad. It feels like in order to stay in this relationship I have to be willing at all times to not care if it's over. Can that really be love? The mentality healthier I get the less I even like him let alone love him

[formflier]

Learn Each Day,

I'm so glad to see you back and hear of the dedication to learning about the behaviors that you face in your r/s.    

I'm sure you would agree that there are times we feel powerless about this BPD thing.  Knowledge is power, knowledge will help you take back power.  

SWOE was the book that opened my eyes.  A marriage counselor recommended it to me after my wife put on quite a show.

Vernick also has a website and blog.  She seems to combine scripture and psychology in a healthy way.  Check out Boundaries (and other books) by Townsend and Cloud.

Townsend and Cloud and Dobson don't particularly focus on BPD.  Especially in the way SWOE does.  I DO think they are good to set YOUR mindset for life and relationships.  Then you can evaluate their guidance in the light of tools/principles you have learned specifically for BPD.


A few more comments on Love Must be tough.  

Here is my take... .on what I would like YOU to take from that book and Dobsons work in general.  

Dobson focuses a lot on respect.  He talks about it in his own marriage, which seems to be a traditional Christian marriage.  Yet his wife would "respectfully" push back on Dobson when she perceived lack of respect.  Granted, it would be for minor transgressions.  (not calling to say he would be late for dinner... etc etc)

The principles are the same in our relationships, even though the examples are more extreme.

Respect goes both ways.

That means if you have communicated clearly... .several times... .and you pwBPD is still doing xyz.  You need to respect that as a decision on their part... .not "BPD talking".  :)on't give them a pass.  Let natural and logical consequences flow into their life and trust them to handle it.

Even if they do it badly.

Yes Love Must be tough is generally about a spouse having an affair.  Can you see substituting "rage" for "affair"?

A basic message of "Honey... .I'm not going to live with you and be raged at.  I value our marriage too much"

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting that anyone move out after a rage.  It's more about the pattern and if there is evidence or not if your pwBPD is actively working on owning their own stuff... .or if they are interested in blaming others for their rage.


FF

[Learn each day]

***

I'm so glad to see you back and hear of the dedication to learning about the behaviors that you face in your r/s.     ***

 I'm not sure if I'm using these quotes right or not but here it goes... .

Yes FF.  Lots of reading and learning going on here.

***SWOE was the book that opened my eyes.  A marriage counselor recommended it to me after my wife put on quite a show.
Vernick also has a website and blog.  She seems to combine scripture and psychology in a healthy way.  Check out Boundaries (and other books) by Townsend and Cloud.***

SWOE was also recommended to me by our counselor.


***Townsend and Cloud and Dobson don't particularly focus on BPD.  Especially in the way SWOE does.  I DO think they are good to set YOUR mindset for life and relationships.  Then you can evaluate their guidance in the light of tools/principles you have learned specifically for BPD.***

I have already read Boundaries and Boundaries in mMarriage by Townsend.  These were the first box that my counselor suggested to me. After being married for 26 years to my husband, it was clear that I had some real codependent and enabling issues. These books were a huge help for me.

***Yes Love Must be tough is generally about a spouse having an affair.  Can you see substituting "rage" for "affair"?***

I can definitely see the benefit of Dobsons respect principles.

Thanks again!

[Learn each day]

 Well scratch the whole no blowups lately. We just had a big one. I started out good. I started out validating what he was saying. I made lots of statements like " I understand that you feel like our children don't work hard enough".  Eventually I said "I'm going to have to end this conversation now because I'm not going to stand here and be cussed at or screamed at."  He started screaming that I better divorce him.

 I am ashamed to say that I eventually took the bait and got angry and return. I didn't cuss and scream but I did get animated.  I spent 25 years just taking everything that he had to say. I thought that being a good Christian wife met not fighting back.  I can't stay in a relationship if I don't feel like I can at least voice my opinion. I try not to tell him that he is wrong only that I have a different opinion. He hates that.  He is only interested in hearing "yes dear" he actually used to make me say "yes sir" before I left him last year. It's really humiliating to admit that I obeyed that kind of behavior. That's the past. The present is that he thinks our 2 youngest kokomo dis are horrible. He thinks the older one are sometimes too but mostly just the 2 left at home. He thinks they do stuff on purpose to make him mad so that he will blow up and then I'll leave. When our counselor explained that they are just young people and can't control how he acts he gets mad. He just got through screaming at me about how I am crippling them because they are so lazy and selfish. He told me that they take too
much of my attention from him. That I don't love him enough anymore. I know I should have reassured him that I still love him as much but instead I told him "the difference now is that I have an opinion and let you know when I don't agree." Completely set him off further. In his opinion I shouldn't get an opinion since I don't provide as much of the Family income as he does. I know I did that wrong. I have spent the last 12 months worked ng on better ways to respond! I guess the bottom line is that I am tired of always worrying about his feelings. Always trying to say everything just right. Learning that I am as valuable as he is was hard for me. Learning that I have a right to disagree was hard. Learning that is the s ok for him to get unhappy was hard. Now that I get these things learning to speak up but only in just the right way is really beginning to wear on me. When the kids and I came back last year it felt like he really wanted to own his stuff and get better. Now at counseling he just says "I don't rage anymore. That's good enough." He has s still as hateful he just doesn't scream it anymore - except for today. He tells our counselor that see her is Justin st a waste of time now. That I am the only one who needs help now. That I'm not working hard enough.

Bottom line is I'm just not sure I am up for this anymore. I don't know if I still want to work this hard. I don't see it ever really getting easier.

[Learn each day]

 Well here I am again crying over this marriage. Just when I think I'm too healthy to cry over this anymore here it is.

[formflier]

Crying is a healthy thing.


Let the tears flow... .  

My Hope is... next time you will cry sooner... .your feelings are precious.  Take care of them.

FF

[Learn each day]

Wow. Sorry for all the typos I was pretty upset.

I kept telling him that his words were really hurting me and that I needed to stop this conversation. He said then that means you want a divorce. I said no just some time to not be so upset. He said he is done with counseling because it isn't helping. I told him I am still going and I'm still working on me. He believes I am worse then before. I explained that I am working on sharing my feelings in a healthy and appropriate way. He said "Congratulations, now you're like every other ___ and crazy ass woman out there." He was yelling "its YOU that has a problem" as I turned my back. He punctuated it by poking his finger in my shoulder. I couldn't leave because he was in the way. I told him that I don't want him to touch me when he is angry. He kept yelling "what are you going to do about it?" I said "well I won't fight back but I would still like to stop talking." He kept going on and on. He said if I try to leave I better walk because the cars are in his name. He blocked my way to the door. Then blocked my way to the other door. I felt so helpless! I tried going around him but he wouldn't let me. I didn't don't want to physically touch him because I didn't want to give him an excuse to get more physical. All I could do was cry. So many different hurtful things. We had such a good time together last weekend but the bad times are weighing heavily now. I'm not sure the good times are worth it.

[Learn each day]

Aaaaaand... .another all-nighter

[formflier]

Did you have your phone with you?

Have you ever called 911 before? 

There are a couple ways to look at this. 

Pull out phone and first use phone to record with video.  Clearly state you want to leave.  Once you have it recorded that he is blocking you.  Call 911.

Check with your local sheriff and see if they do "text to 911".

That way you don't have to call... .it may not be as triggering

FF

[Learn each day]

My phone was in the kitchen. I couldn't get to it. I was a little scared but didn't really think he would hurt me. He definitely wasn't going to let me leave but I didn't think he would hit me. Still a big way he likes to intimidate with his size. When he finally let me out after I was crying I didn't know what to do. I probably should have gotten our 15 y/o daughter and left. I was thankful that she was in her room watching a movie. Clearly I didn't leave. He talked all night about how I needed to change. That I need to go ahead and have sex with him because he works all week. That I orchestrated the whole fight just so I wouldn't have to have sex with him. Wanted me to decide immediately if we were getting divorced or not. I told him that we needed to stop for the night so we could both pray and then talk later after we weren't so exhausted. He told me to go sleep on the couch. I was so relieved to do that. He of course followed me down. When I finally said I was going to shower at 7:30 this morning he didn't care. When I got out he told me he prayed and decided he was wrong about me crippling the kids - his original complaint of the evening. Said he was sorry. 14 hours of venom, bullying, hurting and hate later. Just like that he is ok. Now I am supposed to be too.

I know that now that everything is cooled down I need to talk to him about what happened. About what my boundaries are. I know I have to be strong and do it or I will just reinforce his bad behavior patterns. It's almost bedtime and he will expect me to be fine with everything and have sex with him. I'm just not sure how to do it. I need to share my feelings about how much he hurt me last night.  I should know. I guess I do know - I just don't want to provoke him again. My fear of that tells me that I definitely need more work on me

[Learn each day]

Just a quick update since I haven't posted in awhile. After the last raging allnighter we had counseling shortly afterward. I took the opportunity to set some firm boundaries. I clearly said that he is never to touch me in anyway in anger and that if I want to leave that he is not to block or otherwise stop me in any way. I agreed. Of course it may be different when he is raging next. He has had may angry times since then but not the violent episode like before. He has been verbally abusive to the kids and I am working on that.

An issue we are working on now is money. In the past he has always claimed to be the man of the house and in charge but always got too frustrated to actually pay bills. Like a child it always made him mad when he couldn't have what he wanted exactly when he wants it. Like any good codependent I took responsibility for that feeling and took care of all the bills. We had to file bankruptcy once because of a rental property we had and him having major back surgery and being off work for 6months due to that. He has always blamed me for that. We have been "broke" twice since then twice (no bankruptcy or anything-just no savings) since then. Those really are my fault. He would voice that I should tell him when we are low on money but anytime I would he would rage at me about it and decide that it was totally my fault. I tried for so long to keep everything juggled so that he could live how he wanted and still keep the bills paid. I was so dumb. Since our temporary separation last year he has threatened to cut us off several times. He has acted like taking all the bill paying away from me is some sort of punishment. I have encouraged him to take it all. He keeps dragging his feet but we finally opened him up an account with only his name on it that his check will go into. We are moving all the bills to come out of that account today. In the past he has always had the luxury of spending like a child and then haveing someone else to blame things on. Now he will be responsible for his own spending. This should create some tense situations ahead but is so important for me to do. I have been slowly taking away his "sticks" if that makes any sense. This was one of his big sticks. He has always thought that since he makes more money them me that he should be able to spend what he want and for me to make it work. Responsibility is about to beat on his door.

Joint counseling later today too. That is usually pretty tense.

With me luck