Can the same be said for each of us?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

"responsible for" is very different than blame or "deserve". if we are not responsible for ourselves, who is? many of us gave that responsibility to ourselves away. should we expect healthy relationships in the future if that is our strategy?

i think that if one is assuming that the relationship was "doomed" because of a personality disorder, then yes, having poor boundaries and not protecting yourself are not recipes for relationship success. is that the same as saying you are on equal footing with abusive behaviors? i dont think it is. its a far cry from saying you deserved them.

when someone is abusive toward us, it is a valid reason to exit a relationship. to do so is to take responsibility for what you have control over; well differentiated.

.

Once removed, with respect I would like to mention the insidious nature of abuse. If he’d raged and devalued me on the first date, fifth date, I would have exited, would have protected myself, but it doesn’t work like that. My relationship evolved much like the one in the article mentioned by KC. By the time I’d gone through all of that I was an absolute mess, confused about was going on, struggling to keep my head above water and make sense of it all. My strategy in relationships isn’t to ‘give’ my responsibility to protect myself away. Not then, not now and not in the future. Did I give it away or was it taken from me? I ‘was’ being abused by my personality disordered boyfriend who ran rings around me as a caring person who unfortunately was naïve to serial abusers, naïve to personality disorders and people who treat and harm people that way. I was tossed around in a BPD whirlwind and I did not know what hit me becoming increasingly depressed and increasingly powerless to do anything about it. My sense of myself as a strong, capable woman was eroded bit by bit by a man who views women as objects to fill his needs, and who raged and abused me to the point where I lost all sense of who I’d been. Of course the relationship was doomed because of all this. Who could survive it? I very nearly didn’t.

[Larmoyant]

"responsible for" is very different than blame or "deserve". if we are not responsible for ourselves, who is? many of us gave that responsibility to ourselves away. should we expect healthy relationships in the future if that is our strategy?

i think that if one is assuming that the relationship was "doomed" because of a personality disorder, then yes, having poor boundaries and not protecting yourself are not recipes for relationship success. is that the same as saying you are on equal footing with abusive behaviors? i dont think it is. its a far cry from saying you deserved them.

when someone is abusive toward us, it is a valid reason to exit a relationship. to do so is to take responsibility for what you have control over; well differentiated.

.

Once removed, with respect I would like to mention the insidious nature of abuse. If he’d raged and devalued me on the first date, fifth date, I would have exited, would have protected myself, but it doesn’t work like that. My relationship evolved much like the one in the article mentioned by KC. By the time I’d gone through all of that I was an absolute mess, confused about was going on, struggling to keep my head above water and make sense of it all. My strategy in relationships isn’t to ‘give’ my responsibility to protect myself away. Not then, not now and not in the future. Did I give it away or was it taken from me? I ‘was’ being abused by my personality disordered boyfriend who ran rings around me as a caring person who unfortunately was naïve to serial abusers, naïve to personality disorders and people who treat and harm people that way. I was tossed around in a BPD whirlwind and I did not know what hit me becoming increasingly depressed and increasingly powerless to do anything about it. My sense of myself as a strong, capable woman was eroded bit by bit by a man who views women as objects to fill his needs, and who raged and abused me to the point where I lost all sense of who I’d been. Of course the relationship was doomed because of all this. Who could survive it? I very nearly didn’t.

[once removed]

if someone can take away our responsibility to ourselves, and erode our sense of self, what stops it from happening again in the future?

[Larmoyant]

if someone can take away our responsibility to ourselves, and erode our sense of self, what stops it from happening again in the future?

I am confident that this will never happen again. I am experienced and educated now. I know first-hand what it is like to be pathologically idealised, devalued and abused. I know what signs to look out for and should I come across any I will not put myself in jeopardy again. I am in no rush to form another relationship as I still have work to do, emotions to sort out. I am in touch with my own issues, where I slipped up and I am a work in progress helping myself make peace with it all. It won’t happen again.

[kc sunshine]

This is a great thread-- thank you all! Oh man, these are all difficult questions. I really identify with what Larmoyant and Optimus are writing about and both seem to strike a balance between taking responsibility and acknowledging the damage that the disorder can inflict (on us as well as on our exes). In my understanding (though you all know this has been so difficult for me in practice and I have struggled immensely with how to heal and how/whether to move on or keep on trying), what helps with detachment is an understanding of the illness as an illness as well an understanding in our own vulnerabilities/maladaptive skills in the relationship so that we can grow from it. Once removed, if I'm understanding you right, you have a worry both that we are not moving far enough on the responsibility spectrum and that we are not understanding the illness fully in ways that will hinder our healing. Is that right?

[once removed]

I know what signs to look out for and should I come across any I will not put myself in jeopardy again.

education and experience are useful tools. we cant fault ourselves for not knowing what we didnt know. knowing what to avoid wont make us more emotionally resilient, more emotionally available partners. it wont raise our level of differentiation - if anything, it can make us more fearful and avoidant, when we want to develop the confidence to know we have the skills to navigate a world full of difficult and challenging people, the insight to know what to look for in a partner, the attractiveness to healthy potential mates, and the sense that we are entitled to take the initiative to share in lifes riches.(https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111984.msg1100946#msg1100946)

Once removed, if I'm understanding you right, you have a worry both that we are not moving far enough on the responsibility spectrum and that we are not understanding the illness fully in ways that will hinder our healing. Is that right?

im saying we cant begin to do this if bad people happen to us and we have no control.

[kc sunshine]

im saying we cant begin to do this if bad people happen to us and we have no control.

I get your point, but at the same time it is quite a patterned experience and evokes what seems to be a patterned response in people, across a range of backgrounds, skills, etc. It might be helpful to have a corollary article to "how a BPD relationship evolves" which focuses on the "non."

[kc sunshine]

.

Once removed, with respect I would like to mention the insidious nature of abuse. If he’d raged and devalued me on the first date, fifth date, I would have exited, would have protected myself, but it doesn’t work like that. My relationship evolved much like the one in the article mentioned by KC. By the time I’d gone through all of that I was an absolute mess, confused about was going on, struggling to keep my head above water and make sense of it all. My strategy in relationships isn’t to ‘give’ my responsibility to protect myself away. Not then, not now and not in the future. Did I give it away or was it taken from me? I ‘was’ being abused by my personality disordered boyfriend who ran rings around me as a caring person who unfortunately was naïve to serial abusers, naïve to personality disorders and people who treat and harm people that way. I was tossed around in a BPD whirlwind and I did not know what hit me becoming increasingly depressed and increasingly powerless to do anything about it. My sense of myself as a strong, capable woman was eroded bit by bit by a man who views women as objects to fill his needs, and who raged and abused me to the point where I lost all sense of who I’d been. Of course the relationship was doomed because of all this. Who could survive it? I very nearly didn’t.

Larmoyant's whole post resonated with me so much.

[OptimusRhyme]

im saying we cant begin to do this if bad people happen to us and we have no control.

So, I'm a pretty huge Marcus Aurelius fan. I read through Meditations way more often than any person should. And there's one passage (which I'm going to paraphrase poorly here) that speaks to, I think, our divergent perspectives here.

He's talking about the logos (general order of things) and he argues with himself "look at this event that happened, that you find so painful or offensive, and see that it is the right thing to have happened, as every event is the right one to have happened. And not just in the eventual sense, but right now, in and of itself."

I take that, along with a lot of stoic philosophy, to be a way of telling us that our control over ourselves is all that matters, that we can choose to respond to anything that might lie outside our control that happens to us. It's a proactive mindset, and one which I find a lot of weight and value in, similar to the way that I believe healing is about focusing on ourselves, how we interact with the world around us and how that affects our reality and the things which come into it. 

All that said, I don't believe for a goddamn second that viewing everything that happens as the right thing and actually great is anything but an attempt at sour grapes rationalization and defense mechanism. I don't know that I believe in "bad" people, because I've never met anyone who's treated me badly (or treated others badly) who wasn't hurting worse inside - happy people don't hurt people. But hurt and disordered people certainly happen to us, and we have no control over them. We choose how we deal with them, but they continue to make the same unhealthy "bids" to any port that will audition them until they get a bite (I realize I just jumped through like 4 metaphors there, it's a Tuesday).

This thread has helped me realize that I might just be frustrated out of a sense of perfectionism - it is painful for me to accept that people and things can be broken and unfixable (except through their own actions,  which many do not take). But that is my lesson to learn, that rather than get mad at being frustrated that I have to calmly separate myself from people with BPD, I can accept that I have nothing lasting and positive to add to their experience, and they certainly have nothing lastingly meaningful to add to mine, and that is acceptable, and doesn't need to be mourned or made better. One might say, as an amended Marcus philosophy, "bad things/people happen to us and I don't have control over that. Oh well, I can make use of this." Part of my making use of it is no longer giving people certain benefits of the doubt.

[hopealways]

I think this overlooks a meaningful, qualitative difference - I have a bunch of exes that I have meaningful friendships with, and several more that I am happily civil with. What I don't have is a string of people that say that processing their relationship with me and the related trauma is some of the most emotionally difficult work they've ever had to do.

Now, that suggests to me that while adding spite and shame (delighting in their failures) onto our exBPD partners' plates is probably not very constructive or healing (for them or for us), there are behavioral, chemical, anecdotal, and empirical reasons why I am a non, and my ex is not. That objective distinction seems useful to me in detaching and healing from the cycle, as well as accepting that my ex is entitled to live according to her nature or whim, and make her own decisions.

I agree with you Optimus. The entire argument that the non has something to do with the failure of the relationship is not only false but also misses the point that we didn't cause the instability/intensity/trauma/pain/lies/deceit/hurt that was in the relationship, that was the BPDs doing.

Yes obviously we also have failed relationships but they are different than those of the BPD. In fact, the DSM IV criteria for BPD does not require a history of failed relationships because that would apply to most people.  It requires "a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation". So you need instability AND intensity AND they must be characterized by extremes of idealization AND devaluation.  My past failed relationships did not involve these, but I know ALL of my BPD's past failed relationships including the one with me, did.

[balletomane]

Once removed, with respect I would like to mention the insidious nature of abuse. If he’d raged and devalued me on the first date, fifth date, I would have exited, would have protected myself, but it doesn’t work like that.

Larmoyant, these lines captures what happened in my own relationship.

I've quite often seen long-standing users of the boards observing that most people here were in relationships with people who had never been diagnosed with BPD and who would probably never qualify for a formal diagnosis, as their difficulties are subclinical. That is true. And I think this may prevent people from grasping that being in a difficult relationship with a person who has some BPD traits is not the same as being in a relationship with someone who has a full-fledged, clinically diagnosed personality disorder... .and neither is such a relationship automatically the same as an abusive relationship. This means that advice and strategies that work for people who were in a turbulent and damaging relationship with someone who had subclinical BPD traits are not necessarily going to be right for people who were abused by their partners.

Reflection is important. Ability to learn and grow from our experiences is important. In my case, for example, a big part of my recovery from PTSD has been about learning to be more assertive and to set firm boundaries. (I was painfully shy and lacking self-confidence before.) But although my lack of self-confidence made it harder to break away from my ex's abuse, ultimately the responsibility for being abusive lies with him. I will admit that sometimes I find the suggestion that we sometimes share equal responsibility for the relationship to be upsetting, as I spent the whole time I was with my ex being blamed by him and blaming myself for every little thing that he did to me. Another part of my recovery has been recognising that his abuse of me was his problem. I spent long enough making it mine.

[marti644]

 One might say, as an amended Marcus philosophy, "bad things/people happen to us and I don't have control over that. Oh well, I can make use of this." Part of my making use of it is no longer giving people certain benefits of the doubt.

I have learned this as well OptimusRhyme.

The world is what it is, both good and bad and all the grey in between. I can't (anymore) give people benefit of the doubt unconditionally, nor should I. I have specific boundaries, which are set to protect my own wants and needs (which are not universal, they are solely mine but important to me). No-one (no one!) gets to cross them.

This doesn't mean that I stop dealing with difficult people though. If I did that I would have to cut ties with half my family and myself   . It's about protecting myself after I learned the hard lessons I learned about my own behaviour dysfunctions and others. They can act as they wish and I just deflect it off as gracefully as I can.

How will you deal with difficult people now that you have new boundaries?

marti

[Pedro]

Good for you balletomane.
Good insight and reflection from yourself that you have been able to do that.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi all,

Just to add another two cents into the discussion.  

One way I could compare my BPD r/s to my others is the fact that I was in it.  

My exBPDbf is diagnosed and is at the extreme end of the spectrum.  A fact that eluded me initially however was admitted during the early stages and a fact that I accepted (without a great deal of knowledge, yet some degree of understanding as I had researched the disorder in the past during a previous r/s).  It was my own dysfunction that caused me to be accepting of that fact and my own dysfunction that kept me in the r/s when beyond a shadow of a doubt any emotionally healthy person would have left it.

When the red flags were piling up in front of me, nobody held a gun to my head, nor did they when the pile became the size of Mt. Everest!  So in my mind the way in which I contributed to the demise of the r/s was by getting into it in the first place.  This r/s was NEVER going to go anywhere good, but my own issues that I'm just scraping the surface of currently were the reason why I was open to be sold the idea of the fantasy.  Why I clung to it so fiercely even when my own personal safety was a large issue.  The repercussions to me of this r/s are ongoing, not just in an emotional sense but in a practical sense.  My son is involved in a custody war between his parents now as his father does not trust that I won't be involved in another r/s which has safety risks attached.  It is worth note that this man is a narcissist, so there are other factors involved.  However that is also on me.  The only good thing that came out of that previous r/s was my little boy and now I must fight for him.  

Every waking moment of every day I am faced with the reality of what my own decisions, driven by my own emotional unhealthiness have caused.  The fact is, I take full responsibility for putting myself in that situation.  No I didn't cause or deserve the physical violence directed towards me.  Yes, as a victim of that abuse I was deep in the FOG.  I lost all sense of self worth, rational thinking and the strength to get out of the r/s at a point.  However there were countless points before that stage that I could have extracted myself from the obviously unhealthy bond we shared.  Fact is, I didn't want to.  I was invested in the dream and had my own delusions that we could make it if we just... .

Which is why I am glad that what happened, not to me, but between us, did.  It has been a catalyst for me to come to a place of self discovery that was long overdue.  It has caused me to recognise things about myself, my history, my roots that I had otherwise failed to take ownership of.  A wake up call of sorts.  I believe that everything happens for a reason.  It was necessary for these events to take place so that I might benefit.  I am grateful for the experience I have had as it has given me opportunity to learn and grow as an individual, so that I am better able to truly look within and work on being the emotionally grounded individual that my son deserves to have as a parent.  So that I can be all that I deserve to be, attract and enjoy the type of relationships that I aspire to have, with the type of people whom I aspire to be around.

Disclaimer: I am in NO way comparing my own experience to that of any other here.  We are all individuals and have our own personal stories that differ from one another.  Everybody has their own reasons for their choices and deals with things in their own ways.  However, I did feel that sharing a little about my personal situation may be of use to some reading this thread.

I'd like to share something that I received today from Rick Hanson, Ph.D., psychologist, New York Times best-selling author, Senior Fellow of the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley, and invited speaker at Oxford, Stanford, and Harvard universities.  It seemed apt to add to this thread and I hope it can be of use.

In challenging situations or relationships, it's natural to focus on the ways that others are causing harms, and on how you are causing benefits. But there is always more to the story - including your own part in the matter.
This last one is the hardest to look at. But it’s usually the most helpful, since it draws you toward the things you can most influence: your own acts of thought, word, and deed. It also brings the peace that comes from taking appropriate responsibility. Thus this week's practice: see your part - one of the most useful and honorable things a person can do.


Just One Thing: Simple practices for resilient happiness.
 
What's your own role?
The Practice:
See Your Part.
 

 
Why?

In situations or relationships with any kind of difficulty – tension, feeling hurt, conflicts, mismatches of wants . . . the usual crud – it’s natural to focus on what others have done that’s problematic.
This could be useful for a while: it can energize you, bring insight into what the real priorities are for you, and help you see more clearly what you’d like others to change.

But there is also a cost: fixating on the harms (actual or imagined) done by others revves up your case about them – with all the stresses and other problems that brings – plus it makes it harder to see the good qualities in those you have issues with, the influence of additional factors, and your own part in the matter.

For example, let’s say you work with someone who is unfairly critical of you. Sure, there are the ways this person is out of line, self-righteous, whatever. Additionally, there are the ways that this person is also doing good things, plus the ways that other factors – such as a distracted boss who hasn’t stepped in or coworkers who like to gossip – are helping or hurting. And there is your own role as well: what you’re doing – in thought, word, and deed – that’s beneficial or harmful.

At the end of the day, you usually have little influence over people that trouble you or over third parties – let alone over macro factors like the economy, corporate culture, etc. Yes, do what you can about what’s “out there,” but “in here” there are many more opportunities for managing your reactions and for becoming more skillful in life.

Further, I’ve never been able to come to peace about anything that’s bothered me (on a range from mild consternation to grinding hurt and anger) until I take responsibility for my part in it – which seems true for people in general. This doesn’t mean excesses of guilt and mea culpa, or letting others off the moral hook. It just means owning your part in fostering the situation and in generating your reactions to it. Paradoxically, when you step into claiming your part, then you can step out of tangles with others and inside your own mind. The truth does set us free.

But to take advantage of those opportunities, you have to see your own part.
 
How?

Since it can be challenging to look squarely at your own part in a situation, start by resourcing yourself: bring to mind the feeling of being cared about; get a sense of some of your own good qualities; and remind yourself of the benefits to you and others that will come from seeing your part.

Next, pick a situation or relationship. For simplicity, I’ll focus here on three “players”: a person you have issue(s) with, other people or factors, and yourself.
Consider five things:

The ways that the issue person has caused harms and benefits

The ways that other people, social factors, and history have caused relevant harms and benefits (take a wide view)

The ways that you have caused benefits

(Details: Issues include feeling mistreated, wanting something but not getting it, creating difficulties for people you care about, etc. Harms include misunderstandings, hurt feelings, losses, obstructions to progress, etc. Benefits include clarity, a culture of responsibility, emotional support, promoting the welfare of others, etc. Causes come in the form of thoughts, words, and deeds; beware too much mind-reading, but it’s natural and useful to reflect on the mental processes of yourself and others. Recognize the distinction between intent and impact: a person’s intentions could be positive or neutral, yet have negative consequences.)

Now, the sixth step, the hard one: Consider how you have caused harms in the situation or relationship. To do this, it helps me to think of three kinds of causes (with not-exhaustive examples):

Innocent – Simply being there when something happened (e.g., walking in a crosswalk when a drunk driver hits you); taking a job in a company with a critical co-worker; being male/young/Latino/blond/an MD/etc.; deciding to move to a certain city.
 
Opportunities for greater skillfulness – Realizing that: a certain word is offensive to others; you’ve over-reacted to relatively minor matters; you need to be a more engaged parent; a partner would like more romantic attention; it’s time to get more organized at work; you’ve been drinking/working/talking/judging/advising/bossing too much.
 
Moral faults – (We all have moral faults, me included big time: occasions when we violate an appropriate code – particularly our own deep code – of integrity, and deserve a wince of healthy remorse.) Being unfair; yelling or hitting; nursing grudges; lying; treating people as if they don’t matter; abusing power; recklessness; using coldness as a weapon; not caring about your impact on others; blowing your responsibilities.

The distinction between opportunities for greater skillfulness and moral faults is really important – both regarding yourself and others you have issues with. Often we miss chances to become more skillful because we think it will mean acknowledging a moral fault. Of course, what is a matter of skillful correction for one person could be a moral fault to another one; you have to decide for yourself.

As you do take responsibility for your own part, have compassion for yourself. Also remember that surrounding the causes of harm that have come from you are all sorts of good qualities in you – and seeing your part is also an expression of your goodness. Know these things, and let them sink in.

Allow waves of pain or remorse to move through you as you see your part. Let them come, and let them go. Don’t wallow in guilt: that actually undermines seeing and taking action about your own role. Remember that your part does not reduce the part of others; we all have a part. Appreciate that facing your part helps you help others to face their own.

Increasingly, find your way to a kind of peace. You are not resisting anything; no one can tell you something about your own role that you don’t already know. There is relief, a softening and opening, an upwelling sense of your own good heart.

Then, gently, see if any actions come to mind as wise and helpful. Perhaps some communications to others, or resolutions about the future, or a making of amends. Take your time here; don’t rush in to make yourself feel better.

Whatever sense comes to you of the benefits of seeing your part: really take them in. You surely deserve them. Acknowledging one’s own part in a difficult situation is one of the hardest – and I think most honorable – things a person can do.


JUST ONE THING (JOT) is the free newsletter that suggests a simple practice each week for more joy, more fulfilling relationships, and more peace of mind. A small thing repeated routinely adds up over time to produce big results.

      

Love and light x

[vanx]

This is a great, provocative thread. I find everyone's input really useful. Man oh man, accepting personal responsibility is 100% crucial, and all we can do is try to grow and improve our lives and our relating in positive ways. I did have one thought about it all though, and I wondered if anyone could relate? It has been a struggle for me to not beat myself and take the blame for being needy, reactive, emotionally unstable, and whatever other things my partner called me that I see the truth in, even if I wanted to compromise and work things out really badly.
It's been a struggle for me to not so much blame her, but fully acknowledge the contradictions in her words vs actions and to recognize the role her disorder played in the relationship. It took me 8 months to even start feeling angry towards her.

Being stuck with just what I did still feels raw, because then it feels like I did something wrong and lost someone I loved. I needed to really get support about what she did too.
I am not trying to toot my own horn, because god knows I have my issues  but to get to a place of balance, I feel I almost have had to push myself to see what SHE did wrong a little bit more, and that it's not all my fault. Anyhow, can anyone else relate to actually having to find balance by pushing yourself to see what your ex did wrong? If I am alone and crazy in this, I accept that! 

[roberto516]

Anyhow, can anyone else relate to actually having to find balance by pushing yourself to see what your ex did wrong? If I am alone and crazy in this, I accept that! 

 Not at all. Thats what balance is afterall. After the relationship ended I got so down and took all the blame. If only I did this or that. My friend, a very skilled therapist, just smiled and told me to let him know when I started to blame her for everything. That didn't take long. Then he told me to let him know when I began to see we both played a role. So I did .

My own experience, I tried to communicate better and get my concerns out in the open for conflict resolution and compromise and understanding. She was unable and unwilling to do that (her part). When she wasn't able to do it I'd get angrier and heighten my emotions which only kept us further from a goal of compromise and understanding (my part). Thats just one example.

Sometimes I would explain as best as I could but I'd get frustrated that she never communicated back other than "ok". This built up resentment in me (my part) in response to her inability to talk to me about anything that wasn't joy or happiness (her part).

[vanx]

Thanks for relating, roberto. Sigh, I guess maybe we really get to a good place, we'll be able to let go of it all. Helps to know someone else can relate. I can relate to the whole "ok" bit--oh boy. I guess the growth is getting stronger where we trust ourselves better and aren't as affected by what other people say. Thanks!

[once removed]

It has been a struggle for me to not beat myself and take the blame for being needy, reactive, emotionally unstable, and whatever other things my partner called me that I see the truth in, even if I wanted to compromise and work things out really badly.

i dont think blaming ourselves is constructive. its just indulging in regrets that we have no power over.

subtle but important difference between "im a failure" and "i have the power to do better" regarding the things you listed, and the latter gets you a lot further. i liked an analogy a member made once about learning a better golf swing. if you took golf lessons and your instructor told you your golf swing needs improvement, you would hopefully not be surprised or internalize it as catastrophic failure.

nothing wrong with balance, either; thats part of differentiation - dont own what doesnt belong to you. it takes some time to sort the two out. i know my ex had valid complaints about me, but entertaining them when i was raw felt triggering and threatening.

[drained1996]

As I've glanced through this thread... .and correct me if I missed this somewhere... .I didn't notice a very glaring detail about BPD.  It's the very detail that helped me comprehend as best I could about what I was dealing with in my own past relationship.  BPD's are not fully emotionally developed... .somewhere along their way, 4, 5, or 6+ years old, or 10, 11, or 12+... .somewhere in near that timeframe, something traumatic (or ongoing events) happened in their lives that stunted their emotional development.  Essentially leaving that person to grow up in an adult body without the ability to have fully adult emotions and understanding of others emotions. 
An analogy would be expecting someone with a 3rd-9th grade education to be able to be an architect.  Expect a ninth grader to draw your house plans and I assume you would end up being disappointed.  The same should really apply to expecting a pwBPD to matriculate through a relationship with the ability to emotionally understand everything in an adult manner.
My pwBPD was a kind and loving soul... .that unfortunately suffers from BPD... .and that soul was lost in the illness much of the time... .which was essentially the lack of emotional development.  Did I play my own part and have my own issues... .absolutely.  Like much that has been posted in this thread, we all have our own issues.  Was it our fault we stayed and played... .yep... .and that's for us to figure out.  It's on us to figure out why we stayed and ignored all the red flags we can see in hindsight.  It's on us to understand ourselves and our own actions and reactions... .and learn to understand and control them. 

[marti644]

BPD's are not fully emotionally developed... .somewhere along their way, 4, 5, or 6+ years old, or 10, 11, or 12+... .somewhere in near that timeframe, something traumatic (or ongoing events) happened in their lives that stunted their emotional development. 

Hi drained1996,

I really agree with you here. Sometimes I shrug and say "she's just a kid". I don't want to be a bully so why would I beat up too much on someone who is so fragile? I can't change that fragility or the  other mitigating factors (only professionals can) but like you I focus on what my role is as much as I can the actions and reactions. Controlling my unhealthy ones are my main focus!

marti

[Harley Quinn]

Hi drained1996,

I really agree with you here. Sometimes I shrug and say "she's just a kid". I don't want to be a bully so why would I beat up too much on someone who is so fragile? I can't change that fragility or the  other mitigating factors (only professionals can) but like you I focus on what my role is as much as I can the actions and reactions. Controlling my unhealthy ones are my main focus!

marti

Some really good points here.  I posted elsewhere on another thread that being involved with a pwBPD and hoping they will magically 'change' in their behaviours is akin to seeing a tiger and thinking 'I know it's a tiger, and really I'd love a dog, so maybe if I do xyz it will start to look like a dog, bark like a dog and stop biting me'. 

At the end of the day, a tiger is a tiger and a pwBPD has the emotional age of a toddler so to expect that person to suddenly develop the relationship skills we wish to see in a partner is an unrealistic expectation. 

In my case, trying to turn the tiger into a dog was my mistake and I accept that and have learned from it.  For all intents and purposes, a pwBPD looks like any other human being, however once the signs show that their emotional level is different to that of an emotionally healthy person, it is on us to acknowledge and accept that. 

I have difficulty accepting failure and have spent many years hoping for the best with an overt maladaptive narcissist, so you would have thought I might have learned my lesson sooner!  That's the key here for me.  I had to have this last ride on the rollercoaster to finally say hold on a minute, I am the one buying the tickets here!

Love and light x

[vanx]

i dont think blaming ourselves is constructive. its just indulging in regrets that we have no power over.

subtle but important difference between "im a failure" and "i have the power to do better" regarding the things you listed, and the latter gets you a lot further. i liked an analogy a member made once about learning a better golf swing. if you took golf lessons and your instructor told you your golf swing needs improvement, you would hopefully not be surprised or internalize it as catastrophic failure.

nothing wrong with balance, either; thats part of differentiation - dont own what doesnt belong to you. it takes some time to sort the two out. i know my ex had valid complaints about me, but entertaining them when i was raw felt triggering and threatening.

Thanks, onceremoved. I'll definitely keep working on that swing!

[OptimusRhyme]

i liked an analogy a member made once about learning a better golf swing. if you took golf lessons and your instructor told you your golf swing needs improvement, you would hopefully not be surprised or internalize it as catastrophic failure.

If I remember correctly (and I might not be), I think skip recently brought up a golf analogy that I liked (might be what you're referring to) - there's a big difference between working on our golf swing to the point where it isn't terrible, and working on it to the point where it's good, and hopefully we would not be super excited and contented with the former.

[Skip]

Very well said. Personally I had some good news today, found out my ex gf has split up with her bf. It proves all of her relationships have failed as he is bf number 3 after me. I shouldn't be glad but I am.

cant the same be said for each of us? that all of our relationships have failed?

I think this overlooks a meaningful, qualitative difference ... //... I don't have is a string of people that say that processing their relationship with me and the related trauma is some of the most emotionally difficult work they've ever had to do.

Now, that suggests to me that while adding spite and shame (delighting in their failures) onto our exBPD partners' plates is probably not very constructive or healing (for them or for us), there are behavioral, chemical, anecdotal, and empirical reasons why I am a non, and my ex is not. That objective distinction seems useful to me in detaching and healing from the cycle, as well as accepting that my ex is entitled to live according to her nature or whim, and make her own decisions.

A thoughtful response, as always... .

Your last line... .

    "That objective distinction seems useful to me in detaching and healing from the cycle, as well as accepting that my ex is entitled to live according to her nature or whim, and make her own decisions. "

... .are you possibly really saying that, regardless of how attached you were, and regardless of how much it hurt in the end, you now accept that some people can be very compatible, but still not compatible enough to have a long term enriching relationship?

An truly enriching relationship is one where the partners together create an environment where each can grow and become more of who they want to be.

[kc sunshine]

To follow the analogy a bit more (and as a teacher myself) though, I think how and why you are taught the lesson about your swing makes a big difference. Telling your students their swing is horrible and that they need to be kicked out of the class isn't great for improving the swing... .now the student has to do double work-- make the necessary improvements and separate that work from the trauma of the interaction with the teacher.

[once removed]

To help readers that didn't see the analogy:

As a sportsman, I don't think a book entitled "do not do these bad golfing techniques" would help my golf game much. I think a book on how to swing correctly and win big is much better. There is a huge distance "not having a bad swing" and "having a good swing". Not having a bad swing is not much of an accomplishment. ~ Skip

[kc sunshine]

Who would argue with having an awesome swing over having a mediocre swing? Not me!  Here's the part of the analogy that you mentioned that  I thought needed more discussion.

subtle but important difference between "im a failure" and "i have the power to do better" regarding the things you listed, and the latter gets you a lot further. i liked an analogy a member made once about learning a better golf swing. if you took golf lessons and your instructor told you your golf swing needs improvement, you would hopefully not be surprised or internalize it as catastrophic failure.

[once removed]

the point is in the context of all of us mentoring each other, and where we have room for improvement, not necessarily about what our exes said about us.

[kc sunshine]

Once removed, something about our engagement here seems off to me. I can't quite put my finger on it.

the point is in the context of all of us mentoring each other, and where we have room for improvement, not necessarily about what our exes said about us.

[heartandwhole]

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